Ready to get started!

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 19, 2012

Ok, ok, I've been talking about this for awhile now, and now that I'm back from vacation, I'm ready. Here are my issues:

I'm still free feeding dry

(well, sort of) They get a certain amount in a day, and that's it)
I have one skin and bones kitty (CRF) and one porky pig kitty, and currently (with our Vet's OK) we are feeding a prescription high protein, low carb dry food to all the cats, and supplementing the CRF guy with lots of extra food (all crap, but it's all he'll eat with the exception of Halo Freeze Dried Chicken) I thought about getting Evo dry to help with the transition, but it's so high calorie that I'm afraid of what it might do to our already fat guy (Darko), and besides, when we tried Wellness Core, two of our four hated it, so it could be the same with Evo.
Sven (CRF) gets his pills in soft treats because they taste bad. I don't see that changing, but it's only twice a day. Problem is, I have to give them to him with other treats otherwise he knows which one is "loaded".
I'm getting discouraged now after reading Lauren's, LDG's, Tammy's and even Carolina's threads and seeing the problems they're having. What the heck's going on lately?
My 3 boys LOVE the Halo freeze dried chicken in in the "styrofoam state", but HATE it when I reconstitute it

. Is that a bad sign already? My one girl doesn't like it in any way, shape or form.
Sven and Callie somewhat will eat certain canned foods, but none of them are really gung ho on any that I have found yet, and I have been trying to convert them for over a year now. If I'm lucky, I can get them to eat maybe a teas - tbls at a time
I'm not rich, and cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on this, especially if they aren't going to eat it. BUT, I certainly don't mind making their food. I do have the time, however, finding the different proteins might prove problematic. Especially if I don't want the bones in the meat, as I think I would prefer adding bone meal rather than buying a grinder, etc.
I have a brain issue (seriously), and cannot process too much information or it all becomes mush. I need simple instructions on how to do this. I have looked at some of the different websites out there, but once I start reading, my head starts spinning and all the words start flying out my ears

. I've started a Word Document with helpful hints from the threads going on right now (which foods seem the most popular, how to do just one protein to 100% before starting another, etc.), but I think I need to know really just how to get started. Once I get my furbabies on scheduled feedings, can I introduce raw without trying to get them on canned first? Carolina did this with Lucky, didn't she? Or do I just need to slowly replace one meal at a time with canned until they eat it...and what if they just skip that meal forever?

I know I have lots more issues, but this will get me started. So...I'm ready for all your words of wisdom, but I think I know the first thing to do, and that is to pull up all their food and get them on scheduled feedings. How many to start with? 3 or 4 (or more) a day? Their ages range from 3 years to 16 years and they've always been free fed.

Many thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

goingpostal · Feb 19, 2012

I would go to timed feedings, either 3-4 a day is fine depending on your schedule. As far as switching, it really depends on your cat, I was already feeding canned but not sure it would have mattered, she loves raw, I just started putting down meat and she ate it. She wouldn't touch anything mixed with canned. I understand most cats probably aren't going to go for that but I would give it a try just to see how they react with some chopped chicken. My cat doesn't like any freezedried food really, she'll eat the VE nibblets, but nothing stella and chewys, wet or dry. So I don't think that eating freezedried means they will eat raw or vice versa, it's a very different texture and appearance. Are you looking at making a ground mix or frankenprey or commercial? I haven't tried Wellness on my cat but she adored the Evo, any flavor, I used to buy the cat, ferret and red meat for my ferrets and she would gobble up any that fell. Do you have a pet store around that would have the sample bags?

feralvr · Feb 19, 2012

Oh Sally - I am SO happy to see you are going to try this. I wish I had all the answers for you - I just don't as I am still figuring this out. For some cat's - they just take to it right away like my Walden and Wendall. They are at 100%. My other four - only 50% and that is about all I can get out of them. If I push it past that point - then they will not eat - nope..... But I will continue to try and will continue to add the raw meat. If you look at the stickies in the Raw Forum - Read through the Raw Resource thread from Auntie. Excellent and packed with great and helpful information to get you started. All three of us - I think - myself, Laurie and Carolina started with the Nature's Variety Rabbit. You cannot get that right now. Rabbit shortage. But you have to find a base meat that the cats will love. Not easy. AND it gets more complicated when one cat loves one meat and the other refuse it. It has to be a labor of love and I just think about how great the cats will thrive on their species related natural diet - if I can them to transition totally. Two of my six are already converted and doing absolutely beautiful on the raw diet.

I really think what you need to do right away is go to scheduled meals. This is the only way and must be done. No more free-feeding dry. Get them all on wet/canned food only first. Then once they are eating the wet food well and on schedule start to introduce one protein at only about 20%. I would also recommend starting them on an Enzyme/Probiotic supplement right away to get their digestive system ready for the raw - it will help tremendously. Do lot's of reading and research - and I am sure the other's will chime in here as well. :clap:

ldg · Feb 19, 2012

Sally, I really think the trouble I'm having is because I only had access to Nature's Variety frozen stuff for so long. It was great for the initial transition when they had the rabbit. But note the second ingredient on NV Rabbit is pork fat.

My cats didn't love rabbit meat. They loved rabbit meat with pork fat. :lol3: So when I had no choice but to use pretty much only NV lamb or chicken, they got sick of it and bored. So I went to the supermarket, and bought fresh lamb from NZ, and organic pasture-fed chicken and turkey. They LOVE fresh meat. I realize it's not balanced nutritionally, and I have been giving a meal of just fresh meat at least every-other day here for a couple of weeks now... but for my guys, the problem isn't that they don't like meat. They don't like Nature's Variety - or the other rather dry, frozen commercial patties (Stella & Chewy's, Primal).

And yes, we're having issues - though not all our cats are. I think it's something people should expect when transitioning. :nod: If there are no problems - GREAT! But think of it like this:

All your life, you've been eating cereal whenever you want throughout the day. It's got vitamins added, meets all your nutritional needs. You also eat canned stew, though you switch between beef and chicken stew.

Your next shopping trip, instead of getting cereal and canned stew, you go to the health food store. You buy organic fruits and vegetables and whole wheat pasta, and that's what you start eating.

Being a person, you force yourself, even though the pasta tastes like cardboard to you, you know it's good for you. Your mouth and teeth hurt from chewing on carrots and biting apples. Your body is in shock from this sudden switch.

That's not to say it wasn't the right thing to do. But you may have problems with diarrhea or constipation or feeling nauseous and throwing up as your body adjusts to the new diet.

On the other hand... you sleep better, you have more energy. So you know it's worth the problems of the transition.

************************************************

I don't know anything about CRF and raw feeding, but found this: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/renalfailure.htm I don't know how closely you work with your vet, but I would definitely find out if your vet is open to the idea of raw feeding.

In the meantime, I think the first step is moving to timed meals. I think you should get your kitties on probiotics now, while you decide how to proceed. :nod:

Does your vet already have Sven on digestive enzymes? If not, why not? would be a good question for the vet. :nod: In everything I've just seen regarding CRF, it seems digestive enzymes are an important tool. These may also ease some of the transition problems.

************************************************

I transitioned mine from free feeding kibble to canned food, timed meals in November 2010. It was NOT fun. My biggest hurdle was getting Flowerbelle, Lazlo, and Tuxedo to eat enough food at each meal. I had to settle on four meals a day to get them to eat enough. And they still didn't, so even though I did not free feed kibble, I definitely continued to feed kibble to just them. I didn't become a kibble-free home until ... a few days? a week? into the raw transition. I replaced the snacks of kibble they were getting with Whole Life chicken. :nod: Flowerbelle hates it, so for a while there I'd give her some canned food as a treat.

But the switch to timed meals is the first hurdle. You'll probably have to do four (do you work? If so, you may have no choice but to make it three!) ... that said, the problem I'm having now with Tuxedo, I'm pretty sure, is because I'm moving from four meals a day to three. On raw food, the cats produce more stomach acid. This makes them nauseous if they don't eat when they're used to eating. So if you CAN move them to three meals a day, that is the better option, because it doesn't tie up so much of your time - and it MAY be easier in the long run to get them eating their kibble at the times you would want them eating canned or raw. :nod:

************************************************

Issues with transition:

Some cats will love meat right away: Lauren's Wendall and Walden; my Billy, Ming Loy, Chumley, and Sheldon - though he hates NV, he loves meat - Flowerbelle, and Spooky. (Yes, Spooky's having an issue, but it's not because she doesn't like raw food). Flowerbelle's issue isn't that she doesn't like meat. Her issue is that she would rather eat 3 or 4 bites of food at a time, about a 100 times a day.

I have to use the "enticements" to get her to eat - not because she doesn't like the food, but because I need her to eat enough at each meal.

Some cats will not even recognize raw as food: Carolina's Lucky.

Some need convincing: Bugsy, Hope, Lauren's 4Ps, and my Lazlo and Tuxedo.

Flowerbelle and Spooky do NOT like Halo or Whole Life (like Halo, but cheaper) chicken. Dehydrated, rehydrated, doesn't matter. So you need other tools in the arsenal, for increasing "palatability." (Meaning stuff to help you get them to both recognize it as food, and to encourage them to finish their meals). In my arsenal: Whole Life chicken, Whole Life lamb, Fortiflora, dried chicken livers, and dried beef liver. These are all used sparingly - light sprinkles or coating on top. Helps to get them going, and helps them to keep going. I do NOT use Fortiflora as a probiotic (which is what it is). I use it to make the food smell enticing.

Other things to consider:

Bone-in meals vs. calcium supplemented meals. If your cats are used to eating kibble, based on what Carolina is going through with Lucky right now, I would REALLY recommend starting with commercial raw that is NOT bone-in. Nature's Menu is relatively affordable even with shipping, and it has calcium supplemented rather than being bone-in. :nod: Rad Cat seems to be a GREAT transition food (also supplemented and not bone-in), but it is expensive, even if you can find someone that supplies it where you live. Look into it and see. But it seems that starting with Rad Cat or Nature's Menu might be a good plan. :nod:

And yes, Lucky went straight from kibble to raw. :nod: I wouldn't bother with introducing them to canned - unless you've just never offered it to them. If they like it, it can be a valuable tool in the transition.

What I would do if I were in your place, I think, is first I'd talk to the vet about Sven and raw. I'd talk to the vet about getting him on digestive enzymes, and I would definitely get them all on probiotics.

And the next time you're making chicken or pork chops for dinner, as GoingPostal suggests, slice off a very small piece for each kitty and offer it to them as a treat. See what happens!

But focus on one thing at a time... and the first thing to worry about is getting them on timed meals, IMO. And you don't need to buy expensive raw food to see if they like it. Start with little snips of whatever you're having before you cook it. :lol3: (Although a lot of cats DO seem to have a problem with beef). Just don't offer them already-ground stuff from the supermarket. And personally, I had my cats on probiotics for about two weeks before I fed them any raw, just to make sure their gut flora was in good shape.

If they don't like it... then don't invest in commercial raw yet. Just keep putting that little snippet of chicken or whatever on their plate when you feed them kibble.

feralvr · Feb 20, 2012

Hi again

... I also wanted to add about your CRF Sven - as Laurie did above :hugs:

- I would definitely discuss a raw diet with your vet first and foremost for a CRF kitty or dog for that matter. I was thinking about this overnight :lol3: and wanted to make sure you do that first if you have not already - talked with the vet.

carolina · Feb 20, 2012

mrsgreenjeens said:
Ok, ok, I've been talking about this for awhile now, and now that I'm back from vacation, I'm ready. Here are my issues: Yey Sally!!! I am so happy to see you here I was wondering if you were coming back

I'm still free feeding dry :anon: (well, sort of) They get a certain amount in a day, and that's it) The very first thing I did, was certainly put all of them in a schedule - for Lucky I used EVO to do this, and it worked well, as it is very calorie rich, and even if she ate a little bit at a time, she would eat enough.... I did this very slowly :nod: At her won pace....

I have one skin and bones kitty (CRF) and one porky pig kitty, and currently (with our Vet's OK) we are feeding a prescription high protein, low carb dry food to all the cats, and supplementing the CRF guy with lots of extra food (all crap, but it's all he'll eat with the exception of Halo Freeze Dried Chicken) I thought about getting Evo dry to help with the transition, but it's so high calorie that I'm afraid of what it might do to our already fat guy (Darko), and besides, when we tried Wellness Core, two of our four hated it, so it could be the same with Evo. Great that you are already feeding a high protein low carbs.... that will help in your transition.... To save $$$$ Whole Life chicken tastes exactly the same as Halo, but is much cheaper..... it is also 100% chicken, does not have carragernan, which Halo contains - big advantage there.... you can buy in large bags too, from Amazon :nod:

Sven (CRF) gets his pills in soft treats because they taste bad. I don't see that changing, but it's only twice a day. Problem is, I have to give them to him with other treats otherwise he knows which one is "loaded".

I'm getting discouraged now after reading Lauren's, LDG's, Tammy's and even Carolina's threads and seeing the problems they're having. What the heck's going on lately? My problem was really a fluke..... please don't be discouraged by it. It seems that the years of feeding kibbles to Lucky played a toll on her digestive system - for some reason she is just not capable of digesting bones like a regular cat.... But that's all there is to it. Nothing else. Her vet is not concerned at the least, and wants her back on raw ASAP. He does, however, wants her in a bone-free diet, such as Rad Cat or Nature's Menu, for a while, until her system is strong enough to digest bones. She was doing wonderful until she started getting bones in her diet. Hope and Bugsy are doing fantastic. Lucky is already doing better, and hopefully soon she will be eating and loving raw again..... I am hoping I will never putting her back on kibbles..... I was not good for her at all.... I do not consider her problem a "Raw problem", but a "Lucky" problem - it is really quite specific to her system....

My 3 boys LOVE the Halo freeze dried chicken in in the "styrofoam state", but HATE it when I reconstitute it . Is that a bad sign already? My one girl doesn't like it in any way, shape or form. Lucky used to hate it too..... little by little she started liking.... I just offered it to her every day, a small piece, until she took it - it did play a role, I think, in eating raw, as she learned to eat a different texture - wet.

Sven and Callie somewhat will eat certain canned foods, but none of them are really gung ho on any that I have found yet, and I have been trying to convert them for over a year now. If I'm lucky, I can get them to eat maybe a teas - tbls at a time No problem there - GREAT that they eat some wet already - at least they can deal with the texture.... this will be great for your transition.... Bugsy was never a big wet eater either....

I'm not rich, and cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on this, especially if they aren't going to eat it. BUT, I certainly don't mind making their food. I do have the time, however, finding the different proteins might prove problematic. Especially if I don't want the bones in the meat, as I think I would prefer adding bone meal rather than buying a grinder, etc. Take a look at this link: Making cat food, by Dr. Pierson she also has recipes for CRF cats in there. If I am not mistaken, she has with and without bones - using bone meal.

I have a brain issue (seriously), and cannot process too much information or it all becomes mush. I need simple instructions on how to do this. I have looked at some of the different websites out there, but once I start reading, my head starts spinning and all the words start flying out my ears :lol3: . I've started a Word Document with helpful hints from the threads going on right now (which foods seem the most popular, how to do just one protein to 100% before starting another, etc.), but I think I need to know really just how to get started. Once I get my furbabies on scheduled feedings, can I introduce raw without trying to get them on canned first? Carolina did this with Lucky, didn't she? Or do I just need to slowly replace one meal at a time with canned until they eat it...and what if they just skip that meal forever?Yes I did..... Lucky went from kibbles to raw - nothing in between at her own pace.... took forever, but she got there.... We took a step back now, as she got a bit sick and she is eating chicken for a few days and refusing raw, but hopefully she will come to her senses soon.... I can tell you all about it on the next post

I know I have lots more issues, but this will get me started. So...I'm ready for all your words of wisdom, but I think I know the first thing to do, and that is to pull up all their food and get them on scheduled feedings. How many to start with? 3 or 4 (or more) a day? Their ages range from 3 years to 16 years and they've always been free fed.

Many thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 20, 2012

Thanks, everyone, for your words of encouragement and your advise. Just wanted to add that Sven (CRF cat) is already on Proviable DC, and has been for a couple of weeks, since I feed him a little bit of canned separately from the other cats (with his Miralax and Pepcid AC and Reglan in it). I don't feed the Proviable DC to the others since they free feed out of shared bowls so it's hard to tell who eats what! But I can start them on it now that I will be putting them on scheduled feedings. I've just got to order more, or else get to the health food store and just get some acidophilus or something. Recommendations? Also, are probiotics difference from digestive enzymes? I'm guessing they must be. Recommendations for those too?

But now I am concerned since Laurie mentioned that feeding raw causes the stomach to produce more acidity. Sven is already on Pepcid AC for over acidity. I'm sure I have already spoken to his Vet re: raw, but will definitely give her a call again to discuss.

I do not work (used to be a VP at a major bank, but because of my aforementioned brain issues, am now on disability), so I CAN give them as many scheduled meals in a day as necessary, except on Wednesdays and Saturday, when I visit my mother, but I'm not usually gone the entire day, and DH can help out...I've just got to train him

I was planning on using a commercial raw without bones, like NM (cannot find Rad Cat locally, besides, I think it's out of my budget), and then maybe making my own using Dr. Pierson's recipe, but I think that's a LONG way off

.

OK, so it sounds like I should pick up their bowls and get them on scheduled feedings, which shouldn't be too difficult. (am i dreaming?) Then TRY to get them on canned, but if that doesn't work, then just introduce raw along side their scheduled kibble feeding, starting with a teeny amount, probably covered in Forti-Flora (already have),or Halo Dinner Party (already have),or Halo Freeze Dried Chicken powder (already have),and will order some WL in different flavors, need more probiotics and digestive enzymes. Anything else (besides discussing Sven with his Vet). And I'll review that link from Lori on raw and CRF before I call his Vet.

Oh yes, I do have another question...I thought I saw something about kibble and raw not digesting at the same rate. Is that why it's important to get the digestive enzymes? (in case I can't get them on canned first)

ldg · Feb 20, 2012

mrsgreenjeens said:
Recommendations? Also, are probiotics difference from digestive enzymes? I'm guessing they must be. Recommendations for those too?

I buy an acidophilus + Bifidus probiotic from the health food store - it has to be refrigerated. Carolina loves and recommends the Proviable-DC. :nod:

Yes, digestive enzymes are very different than probiotics. Carolina and Lauren are using Prozyme - I'm sure Carolina will provide a link. :nod: I book marked it wrong so don't have it. I bought PetGuard for Cat - but you have to use more of it, so I'd rather get Prozyme.

mrsgreenjeens said:
But now I am concerned since Laurie mentioned that feeding raw causes the stomach to produce more acidity. Sven is already on Pepcid AC for over acidity. I'm sure I have already spoken to his Vet re: raw, but will definitely give her a call again to discuss.

Lazlo had bleeding ulcers in his stomach from the tumor. We're keeping him on the ulcer meds AND the pepcid a/c. He's not having any issues, and our vet(s) (all three of them LOL) have no problems with his being on raw and being on pepcid a/c. But do discuss it. :nod: He's not having problems. The only thing is if I'm late with a meal, he throws up bile. But that's not raw - that happened when on canned as well. What's working for all of them is having the Whole Life chicken handy. I give out small treats in the morning when I get up, then I put a SMALL piece down right before I start prepping the meals. That apparently helps absorb the acid, so they don't throw up the meal while their systems adjust. :nod: It's working here. I give them all another small bite of Whole Life chicken here and there throughout the day, but always about half an hour before the meal, and then again just before I start prepping it. There's been no throwing up since I started doing this.

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 20, 2012

The very first thing I do when I get up is grab the freeze dried chicken out of the fridge and get some into Sven before I start my morning rounds. I need to set my alarm though to do that earlier, because some times he upchucks before I get it into him, even though I also load him up before I go to bed. So you do it with ALL of them, huh? I guess I'd better figure out how to get Callie to start liking them

carolina · Feb 20, 2012

mrsgreenjeens said:
Thanks, everyone, for your words of encouragement and your advise. Just wanted to add that Sven (CRF cat) is already on Proviable DC, and has been for a couple of weeks, since I feed him a little bit of canned separately from the other cats (with his Miralax and Pepcid AC and Reglan in it). I don't feed the Proviable DC to the others since they free feed out of shared bowls so it's hard to tell who eats what! But I can start them on it now that I will be putting them on scheduled feedings. I've just got to order more, or else get to the health food store and just get some acidophilus or something. Recommendations? Also, are probiotics difference from digestive enzymes? I'm guessing they must be. Recommendations for those too?As Laurie said, yes.... Probiotics and Enzymes are two different things. Probiotics are good bacteria that helps to ensure a healthy bacteria flora in the gut - even more important when feeding raw, especially in the beginning, as it helps their system to fight any bad bacteria they might encounter in the meat. Enzymes helps with the digestion - breaking down the meat and better utilizing all the nutrients in it. I use Prozyme - and love it. The only thing is, my kitties are gaining weight - I am having to lower their intake considerably - they utilize the food SO much better, that they do need quite a bit food to keep their weight. Prozyme does tell you to feed less once you add enzymes.... I was just not counting THIS much less :nod: Here is the link for it: Prozyme Original Formula You use very little - 1/16tsp per 2oz of food.... A little goes a long way :nod:

But now I am concerned since Laurie mentioned that feeding raw causes the stomach to produce more acidity. Sven is already on Pepcid AC for over acidity. I'm sure I have already spoken to his Vet re: raw, but will definitely give her a call again to discuss. It does increase the acidity, and that is done to break down the raw meat and to destroy bacteria. They body is made like that for raw - it is a beauty, really :nod: One quick fix for that though, is to offer him a small treat - even a tiny bite of freeze dry chicken will do - throughout the day in between meals. Enzymes also help a lot. This is not forever though - I found this to be an adjustment period with Bugsy - while he was going through the change for scheduled meals, and in the beginning of the raw.... but once he started taking enzymes, his problems ended.

I do not work (used to be a VP at a major bank, but because of my aforementioned brain issues, am now on disability), so I CAN give them as many scheduled meals in a day as necessary, except on Wednesdays and Saturday, when I visit my mother, but I'm not usually gone the entire day, and DH can help out...I've just got to train him :lol3: we do 3.... You should ask the vet what is safe for Sven - he will be your wild card. My house revolves around Bugsy - everything here is done on his pace.... all the introductions, the meal times, etc.... I would ask the vet how many meals he should have a day, and how often - and then go from there :nod:

I was planning on using a commercial raw without bones, like NM (cannot find Rad Cat locally, besides, I think it's out of my budget), and then maybe making my own using Dr. Pierson's recipe, but I think that's a LONG way off :lol3: Good plan! At least for Sven, I think no bones should be safer :nod:

OK, so it sounds like I should pick up their bowls and get them on scheduled feedings, which shouldn't be too difficult. (am i dreaming?) Then TRY to get them on canned, but if that doesn't work, then just introduce raw along side their scheduled kibble feeding, starting with a teeny amount, probably covered in Forti-Flora (already have),or Halo Dinner Party (already have),or Halo Freeze Dried Chicken powder (already have),and will order some WL in different flavors, need more probiotics and digestive enzymes. Anything else (besides discussing Sven with his Vet). And I'll review that link from Lori on raw and CRF before I call his Vet. Make sure they are eating enough.... write down how much they are eating.... Start with more meals, then cut the number of meals - you don't need to start at the goal # of meals. For example - if you aim at 4, you don't need to start there.... You can start with 5-6, then cut the number to 4.... I found that having a feeding area helped tremendously. The way it worked naturally for them to go into schedule, was for me to BE THERE with them. To hang out with them during the meals. I would sit and physically be there for the whole 20 minutes. With Lucky, who was a complete kibble addict, I did not even pull the plate until I saw that she was on a schedule on her own. What I did was, on meal times, I would go to her feeding area, and sit with her for 20 minutes..... she would eat. Soon enough she lost interest in eating alone - and stopped on her own to graze. Only then I pulled her plate. At the same time, I was transitioning her to EVO, so even if she ate just a little bit in every meal, she would be ok. This kept the stress of transitioning her to schedule at bay, and the whole thing very safe - something that you might consider for Sven :nod: (I would not change him to EVO though, because of his CRF.
For her transition to raw, every day I would put a dollop of raw in her plate - alongside with the kibbles, covered with a good amount of Halo.... every meal. At first she walked from her plate..... Then she ate the kibbles..... Then she meticulously ate only the halo..... then she started licking a tiny bit of the raw by accident. Then one day she ate the raw, and never looked back. Now I am doing all over again - this time from chicken

Oh yes, I do have another question...I thought I saw something about kibble and raw not digesting at the same rate. Is that why it's important to get the digestive enzymes? (in case I can't get them on canned first) this is something different.... Kibbles digest very slowly, as there are several things kitties are not made to digest - vegetables, fruits, all the carbs, etc. That slows down the digestion of the meat, and makes the meat, and the bacteria it contains, stays too long in the digestive tract - no good. That is why it is better to feed them separately. With that stated..... I did Lucky's intro with Kibbles..... serving a bit of raw every day.... and never had a problem.... Would I feed a whole bunch of raw and kibbles over and over again? No. But a bit of raw, used during an introduction, I don't think is problematic - especially when you are covering your basis with probiotics and such.

carmina piranha · Feb 20, 2012

The transition for our four was ridiculously easy, so there was nothing to write about .

(Actually, I didn't join this forum until afterward, when we hit a snag). One cat hates canned food, the others love it, and they all made the transition easily, without the one cat eating canned. If you want more detail, let me know. I definitely agree that stopping free-feeding is the way to start!

We make our own food, which helps us control ingredients for our sensitive kitties. It also saves money compared to commercial raw. We were buying Authority canned food for .70-.79 per can, and using 3 or more cans per day for the 3 cats who ate it. Raw food is cheaper for us.

I joined a local raw group on Yahoo, and they had a lot of good info on where to buy meat locally, as well as either bulk suppliers for the area, (and they sometimes do bulk orders as a group), or raw pet food companies. For example, we have My Pet Carnivore delivering in the area, which provides ground or unground chicken, beef, rabbit, etc., and you add the supplements. I think it's cheaper than at least some of the commercial raw foods. You may have something like that near you, too.

Moneywise, how does $40 a month for 4 cats sound? We grind the food, although if you do Frankenprey you don't. Our big up-front investment was $150 for the best, cheapest grinder, the Tasin 108. (The Northern Tool one mentioned on catinfo is no longer a good grinder for pet food) We are amortizing it over 3 years, so when we look at our cat food cost we add on $1/week for the grinder. We pay .69/lb for chicken leg quarters, and .99/lb for liver, kidney, and heart. We're not getting any special grade of meat for the cats other than "people food," which still makes it about 1000 times better than what's in most cans. Luckily the kitties aren't so sensitive that they need anything better than that! The supplements (taurine, fish oil, B complex) are a bit pricey up front (shop around for the best prices) but I think they add on about $1 per week. With each kitten/cat getting 5-6 ounces a day (10-11lb cats), we use 1.5 lbs a day, or 10.5 lbs/week. That would be 28 cans of cat food/week, which would be $22 plus tax for Authority, or $88 per month. The meat works out to a weekly cost of about $8, plus $1 on the grinder, plus $1 for the supplements. So, $40 per month for raw, or more depending on if I underestimated the supplement cost. I guess we'll actually have the grinder paid off pretty fast!

All the other meats are much more expensive, so frankly, as long as these kitties are fine eating chicken, that's what they'll get most of the time. Beforehand, they were fine with two whole flavors of canned food, and hopefully they won't grow into fussiness!

ldg · Feb 20, 2012

mrsgreenjeens said:
The very first thing I do when I get up is grab the freeze dried chicken out of the fridge and get some into Sven before I start my morning rounds. I need to set my alarm though to do that earlier, because some times he upchucks before I get it into him, even though I also load him up before I go to bed. So you do it with ALL of them, huh? I guess I'd better figure out how to get Callie to start liking them :lol3:

No, Spooky and Flowerbelle do not like them. I give them a VERY small piece of dehydrated chicken liver instead. They both love it.

ldg · Feb 20, 2012

Carmina Piranha said:
All the other meats are much more expensive, so frankly, as long as these kitties are fine eating chicken, that's what they'll get most of the time. Beforehand, they were fine with two whole flavors of canned food, and hopefully they won't grow into fussiness!

I wouldn't want to feed (primarily) one protein. I definitely want a mix of lean/light meats and dark/fatty meats. :nod: Right now, I've got pork, lamb, chicken, turkey, and rabbit in the rotation, though I don't have a schedule set yet. I will probably add goat and/or duck. :nod:

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 20, 2012

Just a quick note. We were having chicken for dinner tonight, so I cut off 4 teeny pieces and put one piece in each of their bowls. Guess who ended up eating all four pieces...

Sven! I never would have believed it. He's the oldest and been in kibble forever! The others watched him eat each piece. And I kept trying to tempt them before letting Sven have the next one, and then the next, but they were hold outs. Oh well. At least HE might be an easy convert! Yay!

ldg · Feb 21, 2012

Oh that's hysterical! Aw, that's great! :bigthumb:

furryfriends50 · Feb 21, 2012

That is great that he might take to it so easily! Hopefully the others follow Sven's example

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 22, 2012

OK, now I need some help with logistics, or something! I haven't even pulled up their dry food dishes because I'm just afraid! I cannot afford to let Sven lose even a single ounce because he is so very thin, and when I went to check my scales, the batteries were dead and we're going to Costco today to get replacements. But that's not really my main issue. Need more advise please. Sorry, can you believe problem solving used to be my job!? But that's not how I function anymore. Oh well. Here's more issues.

First, I can't figure out how to feed them on scheduled feeding and keep Sir Piggy (Darko) from trying to eat everyone else's food. Even though I live in a house, the downstairs (where the kitchen is), has only 2 room that I can shut off, one is a powder room, and one is the master bedroom where DH will still be sleeping for the a.m. meal. If everyone is hungry enough, and I carry a bowl into one of those rooms, won't they all go there...then how to I separate the herd to lock only him in there? OR if I set the other bowls down first, knowing him, he'll growl at everyone and start disrupting things to where they'll be upset and then what. (he's my gentle giant except when it comes to food!) AND, if I do manage to get him singled out, he inhales his food (but I'll put his on a riser with a ball in the middle while he's still on kibble to try to slow it down...that's how it is now), and I'm sure he'll start yowling at the top of his lungs to get out of the room, won't he?

Second: Here is Sven's a.m. schedule right now. As soon as I roll out of bed I give him a couple of pieces of freeze dried chicken to ward of the over acidic stomach throw-ups. Then I get dressed, etc. Next I put his Pepcid in a soft Whiska Lickins and hide that in a pile of Temptations (about 10 of those...believe me, this is the only way I can get him to take the "loaded" Whiska Lickins) Next I fix up a bowl of wet food with 2 teas warm water first, then his Reglan, Cosequin, Proviable DC, Miralax, Natural Cellular Defense, and a little bit of food, mainly because I need to make sure he will get all his "meds". He will typically lick the bowl dry, and leave any meat there may be, which then I sprinkle with Forti flora. He may or may not even finish it. I'm talking about a heaping teas of food here! Then I follow that up with more freeze dried chicken. I don't really see how I can change his a.m. schedule or he'll not get his necessary meds. Oh yes, we do the same routine at night, only he doesn't get ALL the same meds, only some of them!

In addition, as I'm giving Sven his loaded treats, I give all the others treats as well, because that's just the way it's always been, and I don't want them to feel left out. Now, on scheduled feedings, I don't want to give them treats right before I feed them, do I? Or would it be ok to give them a few, to whet their appetites? Their treats are Temptations, which say they are 100% nutritionally complete, and I buy the ones with additional vitamins added. I know, I know....they are still crap. I have thought about trying to stuff Sven's Pepcid into a piece of freeze dried chicken, but I'm so afraid that if I do that, I'll turn him off of them! Or for the others, I guess I could just toss them some of their measured out kibble as their treats while Sven is getting his pills? Suggestions.

Oh, and naturally, the entire time I have been typing this, Sven has been nibbling at his bowl of kibble that I keep next to his bed, which is right next to my chair! And he just had his wet food, which he didn't finish, not less than 20 minutes ago! So I guess that means I might be able to serve him his normal a.m. treats, wet AND some scheduled kibble, yes? (he doesn't usually do this

BTW, I discussed going Raw with our Vet, and she was a little apprehensive...mainly her concerns were pathogens and non-sufficient foods. I gave her the name brands I was thinking of, and she actually looked them up while I was on the phone with her, and said she felt better, but was still concerned with pathogens. I mentioned Lazlo and how Laurie was a researcher by trade, blah, blah, blah, and she said just to watch for any signs of trouble (poor looking fur, vomiting, etc.), and to give her a call and let her know how things were going. Who knows, she may end up being a convert! Next time I take Sven in for a check -up, I may take in Dr. Pierson's recipes for her to look at.

Ok, I think that's all for now. Seriously, I really DO want to pull up the dishes...like TODAY. I'll have my scale working by this afternoon and have all the kitties weighed. Just don't know how to handle Sir Piggy, etc. I KNOW you all will have answers for me

ldg · Feb 22, 2012

When I pulled the free-fed kibble bowls, Lazlo, Tux, and Flowerbelle would NOT eat enough of the food I offered them at any one meal. I took to taking them in the bathroom here and there throughout the day (individually) and letting them eat a little kibble. :nod: (I kept a bowl in a cabinet in there, and just pulled it out, so I didn't have to make "bag pouring noises." ). I was switching them to canned only, so the meals I fed at meal times were canned. But they got small "kibble" snacks throughout the day (alone, in the bathroom) as "treats" to keep their weight up. Over time, they ate more and more of the canned. :nod: It DOES help to not feed anything for an hour or two before the next meal you're going to offer.

In your shoes, this is how I would pull the kibble:

Keep the treat-to-prevent acid routine. Keep the treats so Sven can have his meds. (For now). Don't break those routines. BUT - put his treats in a bowl. Give the others Whole Life chicken or something not as "bad" as temptations treats. :nod:

As he already eats wet on a schedule, all you'd have to do is start mixing in a LITTLE commercial ground raw. LITTLE - like half a teaspoon at first. See how that goes.

When you prep his breakfast, prepare the others' at the same time. For now, they will get kibble, with a few little balls of raw food set in there with them. Maybe coated in WL chicken dust, the way Carolina did it. :nod:

Take your piggy into the powder room, and put his food down and close the door. Then put the the food out for the others, wherever the feeding spot will be.

Do the same thing for the evening or night-time meal - whenever it is that you do this for Sven again.

Now - whether you feed one more or two more scheduled feedings (for now) is up to you. But follow the same routine. Piggy gets his meal first in the bathroom, and the others then get theirs in the feeding spot. If Sven likes canned, you can just feed him canned instead of kibble. :nod:

And because you need him to keep his weight, just take HIM in the bathroom throughout the day, and offer him kibble - or get 3 oz cans of wet, and offer him wet food. Either way - include either a couple of pea-sized balls of raw rolled in WL chicken dust OR that tiny amount of commercial raw mixed in with wet food.

Forget about making Sven stick to a schedule for now. You'll likely be able to increase the amount he eats each time, and slowly get him on timed meals. But for right now, that's not the primary concern.

ldg · Feb 22, 2012

Oh - and definitely get them on the probiotics. :nod: Easiest to sprinkle on top of wet food, but you'll figure that out, I'm sure. (Same with digestive enzymes - I just sprinkle on top of the food).

mrsgreenjeens · Feb 22, 2012

Thanks, Laurie. I meant to ask you about the probiotic that you use. I know it has to be refrigerated, and I looked it up on Amazon yesterday and one complaint was that it didn't come in a container with an icepak. When you buy yours, do you get it in the refridgerated section of the health food store. Most things just need to be refridgerated after opening, so I thought maybe the complainer was off track. Also, how do you know how much to give to your cats, since you use a human one? Currently I am giving just Sven Proviable DC.

Are you suggesting that I start giving everyone a tiny bit of raw right away on their plates with their kibble? Or after they get used to their new schedule?

p.s. I've already got Prozyme, WL freeze dried chicken and beef livers saved in my cart on Amazon, but am thinking maybe it's not beef livers that I want? I see that you finicky eaters that don't like the chicken but the chicken livers. Have you tried the freeze dried lamb or any other WL products. I see they are having all the freeze fried products on sale with free shipping on Whole Life Pets website (don't think I'm supposed to actually include the link here)

Do you think I should order some Stella and Chewy's? I see lots of you refer to that and that you rehydrate or something? Is that something you fall back on, or what? I know Amazon has lots of different S & C (and I have lots of Amazon credits!), so wonder if and what of S & C I should get.

Ready to get started!

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter

TCS Member

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats

Thread starter