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Something else about rabbit...

post #1 of 15
2/15/12 at 6:25am
Thread Starter 

First let me stress that I am really, really, really *not* trying to make anyone feel paranoid about feeding rabbit! It is a very nutritious meat that a lot of kitties find yummy! 

 

BUT, constipation is a not uncommon problem with new raw feeders so I think this is worth mentioning: Rabbits have a relatively high bone to meat ratio. How high depends a great deal on the breed. I found very few solid numbers but were all > 10% and some quite a bit higher than 10%.

 

On both the catinfo.org and catnutrition.org websites they recommend "diluting" whole ground rabbit with an additional meat only.

 

Always keep a close eye on the litter box. Whitish poop means too much bone and possible trouble ahead.

 

 

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post #2 of 15
2/16/12 at 4:31am
I am not an expert in raw feeding, though there are several people here who are. But I think I have seen other advice here that says you should always mix your cat's diet if you serve rabbit - that rabbit alone lacks a number of vitamins and minerals that cats need. So thank you for emphasising that.
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post #3 of 15
2/16/12 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 

Yes, a Winn Foundation IBD study that used an exclusively rabbit diet resulted in taurine deficiency in several of the cats. But they didn't come to any definitive conclusion with regards to the cause of the deficiency. The rabbit they used was determined to contain sufficient but minimal taurine.

 

http://www.felineinstincts.com/orderNow/Taurinedeficiencyinrabbit.html

 

 

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post #4 of 15
2/16/12 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post

Yes, a Winn Foundation IBD study that used an exclusively rabbit diet resulted in taurine deficiency in several of the cats. But they didn't come to any definitive conclusion with regards to the cause of the deficiency. The rabbit they used was determined to contain sufficient but minimal taurine.

http://www.felineinstincts.com/orderNow/Taurinedeficiencyinrabbit.html

Sufficient but minimal taurine.... What isn't clear is if that was on an "as fed" basis. The rabbit was ground, and taurine oxidizes quickly enough that (most?) raw feeders caution against feeding ground meat without supplementing taurine.

Here's the study details, from UC Davis: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline%20health_Glasgow.pdf
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post #5 of 15
2/16/12 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post


Sufficient but minimal taurine.... What isn't clear is if that was on an "as fed" basis. The rabbit was ground, and taurine oxidizes quickly enough that (most?) raw feeders caution against feeding ground meat without supplementing taurine.
Here's the study details, from UC Davis: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline%20health_Glasgow.pdf

 

The amount of taurine in rabbit is at the lower end of the range considered sufficient for cats. "As fed" only comes into play when looking at actually values.


That is actually the same study I linked to. It is common for raw feeders to insist that ground meat contain less taurine than unground. I haven't seen any actual proof of that. 

 

What the study says:

 

Quote:
How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine.

 

They came to no conclusion as the reason for the deficiency. Note the bolded part. If that were the cause it would be a factor whether the rabbit is ground or not.

 

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post #6 of 15
2/16/12 at 8:33am
Yes, I know it's the same study. But the Winn Feline Foundation report about the study didn't mention the rabbit was ground, which is why I provided the link to the report from UC Davis itself. It was simply a potential factor not mentioned by Winn Feline.
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post #7 of 15
2/16/12 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Yes, I know it's the same study. But the Winn Feline Foundation report about the study didn't mention the rabbit was ground, which is why I provided the link to the report from UC Davis itself. It was simply a potential factor not mentioned by Winn Feline.


Actually the Winn report does say that the rabbit was ground.

 

I find it interesting that raw feeders who don't feed ground latch onto that study as a reason not to feed ground. Stating that it "proves" that grinding "destroys" taurine when the study says nothing of the sort. And they always completely ignore the part I bolded which means that the study should be taken as proof that care should be taken if rabbit is a large part of a cats diet whether it is ground or not.

 

 

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post #8 of 15
2/16/12 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post


What the study says:


They came to no conclusion as the reason for the deficiency. Note the bolded part. If that were the cause it would be a factor whether the rabbit is ground or not.


You are skipping part of the paragraph, which might contain their conclusion why the taurine deficiency, actually....
Quote:
How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline deficient. Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground (Lambert et al., 2001).
Quote:
The raw rabbit diet should have been balanced, but nevertheless
caused severe taurine deficiency over time in all of the cats fed this diet. Taurine deficiency not only affects the heart, but also the reproductive health of queens and viability of fetuses and kittens.
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post #9 of 15
2/16/12 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


You are skipping part of the paragraph, which might contain their conclusion why the taurine deficiency, actually....
Quote:
How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline deficient. Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground (Lambert et al., 2001).
Quote:
The raw rabbit diet should have been balanced, but nevertheless
caused severe taurine deficiency over time in all of the cats fed this diet. Taurine deficiency not only affects the heart, but also the reproductive health of queens and viability of fetuses and kittens.


I didn't skip reading anything. My point was that the researchers came to no definitive conclusion about why the diet was deficient in taurine. They suggested several *possible* causes. One of which, the one I pointed out, would be a factor whether the rabbit was ground or not.

 

Edit: I think I see your point. They might be saying that the rabbit diet was made borderline deficient in taurine by the grinding. I can see that as one interpretation. This part:

 

Quote:
The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine

 

 leads me to believe that rabbit would be considered borderline deficient to begin with.

 

I can't say I know which interpretation is correct. I do think it is clear that rabbit is low in taurine and that caution should be used if it constitutes a large portion of a cats diet whether it is ground or not.

 

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post #10 of 15
2/16/12 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



I didn't skip reading anything. My point was that the researchers came to no definitive conclusion about why the diet was deficient in taurine. They suggested several *possible* causes. One of which, the one I pointed out, would be a factor whether the rabbit was ground or not.



I did not say you didn't read it - I said you didn't post it. So I did. Because it is an important point in their study.

Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground

And that was the point that was specific to the ground diet....... and the one that was missing....... So, since we feed ground here - I do, Laurie does, and others do too - rabbit, which comes unsupplemented (we add supplements to it) I believe this to be a valid, important point.
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post #11 of 15
2/16/12 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


I did not say you didn't read it - I said you didn't post it. So I did. Because it is an important point in their study.
Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground
And that was the point that was specific to the ground diet....... and the one that was missing....... So, since we feed ground here - I do, Laurie does, and others do too - rabbit, which comes unsupplemented (we add supplements to it) I believe this to be a valid, important point.


See the edit to my post.

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post #12 of 15
2/16/12 at 10:07am
I think there is a general belief, that oxidation caused by grinding that causes taurine depletion. Since the bacterial levels somewhat increase as well, that also plays a part in it.... Proved or not, studies or not - as we know well there aren't many studies out there - beside this one, which it was with ground.... but then again, rabbit is low in taurine to begin with.... Everywhere I look I am told if ground, supplement/balance every meal.
Not the same problem with Frankerprey.
I, personally, rather be safe than sorry - that is a test that is too easy to not risk, IMHO.
I buy supplements for my meats that costs $0.8 per pound..... not much when you think of the health of the kitties....
I will not be 100% sure of that one..... but will not be willing to risk either.....
As for rabbit..... I am ok for feeding - I supplement anyways.... Beautiful meat!
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post #13 of 15
2/16/12 at 10:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

I think there is a general belief, that oxidation caused by grinding that causes taurine depletion. Since the bacterial levels somewhat increase as well, that also plays a part in it.... Proved or not, studies or not - as we know well there aren't many studies out there - beside this one, which it was with ground.... but then again, rabbit is low in taurine to begin with.... Everywhere I look I am told if ground, supplement/balance every meal.
Not the same problem with Frankerprey.
I, personally, rather be safe than sorry - that is a test that is too easy to not risk, IMHO.
I buy supplements for my meats that costs $0.8 per pound..... not much when you think of the health of the kitties....
I will not be 100% sure of that one..... but will not be willing to risk either.....
As for rabbit..... I am ok for feeding - I supplement anyways.... Beautiful meat!


Yes, I am well aware what the common belief is. And I have not said that that belief is incorrect. I have said that there is no proof that it is correct and have shown why I think it would be prudent to supplement a rabbit heavy diet with taurine whether it is ground or not even a "frankenprey" diet.

 

 

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post #14 of 15
2/16/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post



Yes, I am well aware what the common belief is. And I have not said that that belief is incorrect. I have said that there is no proof that it is correct and have shown why I think it would be prudent to supplement a rabbit heavy diet with taurine whether it is ground or not even a "frankenprey" diet.


I understand..... and I personally think it would be prudent to supplement any ground meal, rabbit or not - That is what I am saying - but that is me wink.gif
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post #15 of 15
2/16/12 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post


I understand..... and I personally think it would be prudent to supplement any ground meal, rabbit or not - That is what I am saying - but that is me wink.gif


No one has suggested otherwise. 

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