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post #31 of 50
2/13/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caramelblond View Post

Hi all,
At this point Violet, who has been private messaging me, believes that the foods I have been giving him contain ingredients that are causing problems with the pancreas.  Whether or not they caused the problem or not, the issue is that they are absolutely, in her opinion, causing problems now.  She told me to stay off the raw, as it could have been the issue, however the canned diet also has ingredients that are suspect now.  Essentially I need to find a canned and/or raw diet that does not contain anything but the protein, bone and organ component and supplements only.  NO extras, no vegetables or fruit, nothing.  That doesn't seem so much of a challenge for the raw diet aspect but for a canned diet I am lost.  I don't know of any canned foods that don't have other ingredients added.  I won't feed him kibble and I try to get organic foods.  Does anyone have any ideas about the canned food?  I am waiting for a response from Violet about whether or not I can go back to raw or if she has suggestions about a canned diet. 

Basically it sounds like it shouldn't have anything in it except the protein, bone and organ component and supplements only...WHAT CAN I FEED HIM?  Is there such a diet.  I keep finding fish oil on ingredient lists and Violet said that too can cause an issue.   I'm not sure what to do now and feel like I am boxed in with NO choices of what to give him.

Hoping Violet and or someone else can get back to me soon
Janice

Here you go for the canned - as pure as it gets: http://www.wysong.net/products/aujus-natural-healthy-dog-cat-ferret-food.php
there is pretty much meat and organs, and nothing else.... well, water, and sometimes guar gum, which is a type of fiber. The rabbit is 100% rabbit, nothing added - can not beat that.
I would do either that or raw.
I can seriously not see how raw caused this - not by what you wrote.... unless there is more to it than what is written here in the thread..... but I can't see that in the time line..... really can't.....
Was it confirmed the kitty has pancreatitis, BTW?

I would be looking for a holistic vet at this point, to be honest..... Having this diet conversation with him/her..... Here is how to find one: http://ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html

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Edited by Carolina - 2/13/12 at 3:15pm
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post #32 of 50
2/13/12 at 5:09pm
Janice, I got back to you already, put supper on hold to do it LOL. I wrote to you:
if you believe a raw diet would be the most helpful, maybe that's what you should do. It would definitely be the easiest way to avoid all the ingredients Buddy shouldn't have.
And I really believe that.
 
I agree with Carolina, the raw, as such, didn't cause the problems. It was the extra ingredients and there is no doubt in mind that if you can avoid those, Buddy will recover.
 
Earlier today I sent you this in a PM
 
The key to what to do and how to help Buddy to get well is under
Inflammatory Bowel Disease
and
"Natural" Dry Cat Food
 
The thing is, however, that what Michelle Bernard writes applies to all diets. Dry, canned and raw. Not only dry.
 
From everything I know, it's the damage caused by inflammation that absolutely must be stopped. Hopefully, pure food without ingredients that can cause or aggravate intestinal inflammation can do the job. If not, Buddy might need some anti-inflammatory medication for a while.
 
The problem with inflammation is that it can do damage unnoticed for a long time. By the time one has to deal with serious symptoms caused by inflammation, the inflammation is very severe.
 
 
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post #33 of 50
2/13/12 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet View Post

Janice, I got back to you already, put supper on hold to do it LOL. I wrote to you:
if you believe a raw diet would be the most helpful, maybe that's what you should do. It would definitely be the easiest way to avoid all the ingredients Buddy shouldn't have.
And I really believe that.
 
I agree with Carolina, the raw, as such, didn't cause the problems. It was the extra ingredients and there is no doubt in mind that if you can avoid those, Buddy will recover.
 
Earlier today I sent you this in a PM
http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html
 
The key to what to do and how to help Buddy to get well is under
Inflammatory Bowel Disease
and
"Natural" Dry Cat Food
 
The thing is, however, that what Michelle Bernard writes applies to all diets. Dry, canned and raw. Not only dry.
 
From everything I know, it's the damage caused by inflammation that absolutely must be stopped. Hopefully, pure food without ingredients that can cause or aggravate intestinal inflammation can do the job. If not, Buddy might need some anti-inflammatory medication for a while.
 
The problem with inflammation is that it can do damage unnoticed for a long time. By the time one has to deal with serious symptoms caused by inflammation, the inflammation is very severe.
 
 

Ohhhhh... I see now Violet - I was getting confused now.... That is very much in line with what my vet told me about Bugsy's IBD agree.gif I think that's why he does so well in the diet he is..... But then he eats a pure raw food - no fruits and veggies, additives.... his diet is very clean - makes a lot of difference. Ok - Thanks Violet! wavey.gif
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post #34 of 50
2/13/12 at 10:59pm
Thread Starter 

OK, I bought a can of the Wysong chicken Carolina recomended. I also bought a small tub of the Rad Cat chicken raw.  One question about the wysong, it isn't a complete diet, am I correct about that? It is supplemental.  What do I need to add to/with it to make it complete.  I also saw a Weruva cats in the kitchen, pouch.  It didn't look to have any of the ingredients Violet has said to stay away from but it has chicken and tuna.  Is tuna bad for IBD?...It's bad isn't it?  Buddy would probably like it. Figures...

 

I am thinking it is time to readdress the appetite stimulant.  The Metoclopramide was a disaster and I'd like not to repeat that night but he just isn't eating 200 calories a day.  I am worried about all the other things that can happen due to not eating enough.  He is interested in food.  Everytime I come upstairs with something I'm eating, he wants to know all about it. He eats a little bit then goes away.  He seems to be on a night time eating schedule for now, sleeping during the day.

 

I am interested in the mirtazapine that Sugar Cat Mom talked about, both appetite stim and antinausea, and the Cerenea that you use, Laurie.  AAhhh this is all so much to take in. thank you for the patience, help and everything, it means sooo much.
 I am going to try to get a full nights sleep tonight,

 

Janice and Buddy

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post #35 of 50
2/13/12 at 11:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caramelblond View Post

OK, I bought a can of the Wysong chicken Carolina recomended. I also bought a small tub of the Rad Cat chicken raw.  One question about the wysong, it isn't a complete diet, am I correct about that? It is supplemental.  What do I need to add to/with it to make it complete.  I also saw a Weruva cats in the kitchen, pouch.  It didn't look to have any of the ingredients Violet has said to stay away from but it has chicken and tuna.  Is tuna bad for IBD?...It's bad isn't it?  Buddy would probably like it. Figures...

 

I am thinking it is time to readdress the appetite stimulant.  The Metoclopramide was a disaster and I'd like not to repeat that night but he just isn't eating 200 calories a day.  I am worried about all the other things that can happen due to not eating enough.  He is interested in food.  Everytime I come upstairs with something I'm eating, he wants to know all about it. He eats a little bit then goes away.  He seems to be on a night time eating schedule for now, sleeping during the day.

 

I am interested in the mirtazapine that Sugar Cat Mom talked about, both appetite stim and antinausea, and the Cerenea that you use, Laurie.  AAhhh this is all so much to take in. thank you for the patience, help and everything, it means sooo much.
 I am going to try to get a full nights sleep tonight,

 

Janice and Buddy


Yes, the Wysong, as I am seeing now, is not complete, but if you feed in rotation with the raw, as recommended in their site for example, you should be fine.
Rad Cat is a wonderful food for IBD agree.gif very easily digestible..... My IBD kitty does wonderful in it..... All my cats like it, all the flavors, especially lamb and turkey (they all like chicken too). To entice them to eat, I sprinkle crumbled whole life chicken on the top of it - there is nothing added to it - it is 100% chicken, freeze dried. No preservatives, nothing at all added - chicken only agree.gif You can also give it to her as a healthy treat, re-hydrated, in between meals to supplement her intake. It comes very very handy - great thing to have around, and super healthy. Here you go: Whole Life Chicken Treats
Since she hasn't eaten raw in a while, I would start small..... Add 25% to 75% of wet on her first day..... On the second day do 50/50, provided that she does well on the first day. On the third day, move to 75% raw and 25% wet..... then go all raw.... You can then rotate raw and wet.... if you want.... But start small again on the raw - I would not just serve a meal to her.... wavey.gif
About the tuna..... IMHO depends on the cat.... Fish is an allergen, and if this particular allergen affects your cat, it can cause inflammation.... which of course will not be a good thing for the IBD. There are other possible issues with fish..... But frankly, short term and in rotation, if she will eat it and if it is not an allergen for her.......... I would go for it. IMHO better than not eating, if the other ingredients are ok. Long term I would not feed it.... at least exclusively.
Edited by Carolina - 2/13/12 at 11:31pm
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post #36 of 50
2/14/12 at 3:50am
Janice, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for this to work.
 
Great advice from Carolina to start slow with the raw.
 
I think this article will also be helpful to you
 
Hopefully Buddy won't have a serious problem from tuna if he has some once or twice, but please, as a precaution, don't make tuna a regular part of his diet. 

 

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post #37 of 50
2/14/12 at 4:04am
And...... 
 
another great article for you. Important information about certain food ingredients.
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post #38 of 50
2/14/12 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 

Good morning,

Well Buddy is not interested in the Wysong at all.  He goes up to the bowl then turns away.  And he has avoided the raw nest to it all together.  It is frustration because I had to drive 40 minutes to get it. No one in my area carries the wet.  I had to get it at a high price store in Napa.  I would try the rabbit, as he really likes NV rabbit, but they didn't have that one.  Great to be able to order what I want but that is for later I need it now.  I did try the chicken with tuna pouch, and yep, he liked it.  He was able to eat about an ounce  in two visits to the bowl.  First time no problems, second time, about 10 minutes later, he ate a bit more then went potty then dry-heeved.  Nothing came up, just went through the motions.  He has doe that before after the potty but it doesn't happen often and nothing ever comes up.  I know that is a sign of constipation but he urinated this morning not a bm.  The last time was about a month ago, again then not a bm but urine, though.  I took the rest of the food away, I didn't know if that caused it or not. Now I am thinking maybe not.  He has had Tiki cat for several weeks last May, When I didn't know better.  He loved it, that's why I got it for him.  Again early this morning, really went for it.  I was hopeful it would be something I could use to help him want to eat.

 

Violet I read the first article about how much to feed, it confirms my worry, he is eating the 1/4 cup portion but that is as much as he will take in in one day.  Not more often.  He seems interested in foods that I am eating, and if I bring something up he most often will come to the bowl within 5 min to check it out.  I think I will call the vet today and ask about his appetite.  I am seeing now that he has begun loosing energy.  Could he be nauseated and still be interested in food?  Is it possible that he has a shrunken stomach like humans get and just can't eat that much anymore? 

 

Thanks to both of you for your constant assistance,

Janice

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post #39 of 50
2/14/12 at 8:59am
Very worrisome situation. Thinking of pancreatitis (plus quite possibly IBD as well) as the underlying cause, at this point he desperately needs an appetite stimulant, subcutaneous fluids and anti-inflammatory medication, which, at the correct dose for him, will also be a great help with appetite. If he is constipated, the constipation must also be treated immediately because a constipated cat reaches the point where he simply can't eat. A vet literally needs to "jump start" him and if these measures don't work very quickly, meaning in a day or two at the most, he needs a feeding tube. Anorexia or just even decreased appetite that prevents a cat from getting adequate calories can cause hepatic lipidosis and if that happens you might lose him.
 
Please put in an emergency call to your vet right now and have him seen without delay to get started with the necessary treatments.
 
If you can't get the help you need from your vet, you must take him to another vet as an emergency case today.
 
I'm including the pancreatitis article for info even though I believe you already have it, but PLEASE don't stop to read it now, get started to have Buddy seen as quickly as you can arrange for him to be seen. This is now a very real emergency.
 
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post #40 of 50
2/14/12 at 9:02am
I was going to post on my worries about hepatic lipidosis too..... This kitty has to eat no matter what at this point..... Violet is very very right.... This is an emergency now agree.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif
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post #41 of 50
2/14/12 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 

Yeah that was my thinking too. He has an appointment at 3:30 this afternoon.  I don't know how I am going to pay for any of this.  My care credit is maxed and I have already not paid my credit card bills to pay for the last two visits.  Please prey this doesn't cost too much.  I don't know what I am going to do if it does.

 

Janice

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post #42 of 50
2/14/12 at 6:35pm
Thread Starter 

Just got home from the vets office.   When I got home from work Buddy had only eaten a small amount of food today.  Reasured me that I made the right decision to take him today. Vet said he didn't look very dehydrated and that if he was at least maintaining weight she wouldn't be worried.  But... He lost 0.04oz. from 12 days ago.  His vitals, as best as I can read her notes, (my comments are in parenthesis)  are as follows:

 

MM: lite pink

Ears: N

Throat: N

Abd: X

Gait: N (ha ha, he has no gait)

Temp: 98.6

CRT: 1 a check mark 0

Eyes: N

CV: N

Dermis: X

Nose: N

Resp: N

LN: N

Hydration: 5% ( I don't know what this means)

BCS: 2.5-7.75 / 6.0 (or is it 16.0 or / 0.0)

Weight: 9#11oz.

Resp: 36

Pulse: 160

 

Notes:

interting thick/ L eye pupil > R slightly

patch on his L ear is better/ patch on L shoulder dermis quarter size alone... w/ small amount of crust (this is the scabs I wrote about, she still hasn't mentioned what it is, but mentioned the culture being negative from the ringworm months ago)

 

Periactin - didn't help w/ appetite

reglan - makes zippy

pepcid - cuty down licking lips

 

I explained what has been happening with Buddy's appetite or not happening, as the case goes.  Told her he eats up to 3 oz./day, drinks fluids, bowel movements and urination each day.  She examined his abdomen pretty well and said he does not feel or appear to be constipated.  I espressed my concerns with the small amount of food going in and what it might cause.  She agreed that sub-qs would be good and added that it may even stimulate eating, (which I already knew thanks to you guys).  We discussed the Pepcid and that it seemed to be helping cut down on the lip licking but that he dry heeved this morning after 1st eating a little twice about 15 min apart then urinating.  Upon exiting the box began dry heeving.  Nothing came up, no liquid or solids.  Just going through the motions.  I wondered if it was as much or more nausea than acid and if there was something different we could try.  Reviewed what the raglan did to him and my aversion to it happening again.  She prescribed Cerenia, gave two tablets @ 16mg at 1/4 tablet/day.  She said I should see a difference in 6-8 hours.  She will call me in two days to check on him.

 

This is the part where I am amazed at myself...the wonderful tech came in and showed me how to give the sub-q's at home.  Now I know that everyone says how easy it is, and I agree, the process was relatively easy but I have to tell you that I cry, now as an adult, when I get shots and have always hated needles.  And today was no exception.  I had so much trepidation about it but I swallowed it all down as much as I could.  I asked that rather than letting me watch her she let me do the injection today under her direction so that when I got home and had to do it I would know exactly what it felt like and so as questions came up in my own head at each step I could ask.  She was great, she went a bit fast at first but I stopped her so much that she slowed down on her own.  She gave me a lot of "if this happens, then do this"  I am even crying now as I am writing this, I think it is all coming back up now.  I kept asking if it hurt him, she kept telling me no, it just felt a little weird for him.  She asked if I was going to be able to do it at home and I told her that because my guy needed it I would.  I will right?  He did so well, he obviously felt my fear but he was so good, even the tech thought so. It seems to be taking longer to absorb than I remember it taking the last time he had one. About how long does it normally take?  I need to go online and see if there are any tips on giving the sub q to make it easier on both of us.  Since it is just me I don't have another set of hands. 

 

 

Side note, as I am writing this Buddy has been to his bowl three times to eat.  Not a lot each time but some each time, maybe an ounce total now.  That is saying something, for his eating habits lately.  I haven't given him the Cerenia yet I want to let the sub-q finish up a bit more and then give it with the thyroid meds and the pepcid all at once. He seems interested in the Wysong this evening so I'll try to find the rabbit since he likes that.   How long can I give him the wysong before  I need to worry about the nutrition part of this.  I ask because I don't know how long it may take him to get back to the raw.  Rad Cat is new to him, he took to the Natures variety instantly, but I wonder if he'll do the same with the Rad Cat since last night he wasn't interested.  Cross your fingers since he is now eating the wysong maybe he will eat that too without a problem.

 

I feel a sense of hope tonight that I haven't felt in a few weeks, I hope this is the turning point and we start getting better.  I know that we have a long way to go but if we can start moving forward instead of backwards that would be great.  I need something to feel good about with this.

 

Thanks just doesn't feel like enough for the support and help, but Thank you, to each of you who are helping in your own way even for the silent prayers and vibes. 

 

Janice and Buddy

 

 

 

 

 

 

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post #43 of 50
2/14/12 at 8:22pm
Oh, that is great news that you went to the vet, and that his weight loss is not that much!!
Also great that you got Cerenia, SubQ, and he is eating again clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif

I would not worry right now about Wysong - you are going to use that short term, for a transition..... IMHO I would just worry about having him eat what doesn't make him sick. It takes a while for nutritional effects to show damaging effects - it is not a week or two of transition that is going to harm him - especially since you are going to mix it with the raw agree.gif

On the transition: In the next meal, add a TSP - yep, a TSP of the rad Cat chicken to the canned food. Let him eat the food..... The idea is to do a slow transition..... Adding a little more every day to his meals - much the same way as you would do in a kibble transition. Just in the first day or two, add just a bit - then gradually increase every day so he eats a bit more of the raw, against less of the canned.
Do this until you have all raw....
Good luck hun, hope he starts getting better and better from now on vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif
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post #44 of 50
2/14/12 at 11:29pm
If you are really worried about the cans not being complete, you can supplement them, just like I do with my UN-supplemented raw meat - here is what I use: https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=290&osCsid=90507eb29af345d4e2566ffe6d3c1233

There is nothing artificial, no coloring, no allergens, no veggies, nothing that should be trouble for your baby, yet it should make it balanced and complete agree.gif
One scoop will supplement one pound of meat/food - you have to calculate what will work for one can..... (I imagine it will work just as well for a can).
You can put it in the fridge, or freeze the unused food..... But since Taurine is water soluble, make sure to mix the food very well before serving it agree.gif
If the food is quite juicy already - you don't need to add extra water. If it is a pate style, go ahead and add water as per the instructions - just as if you were mixing with meat......

But..... as I said in my last post..... if you are using this short term and mixing it with raw.... during a transition, you should not need to worry about it....
It does give you an option if you want to feed this longer term agree.gif
hugs.gif
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post #45 of 50
2/16/12 at 9:08pm
Thread Starter 

He doesn't seem to be eating very much yet.  The vet didn't call tonight like I was told she would.  I am frustrated. On the up side the sub q I gave him last night went very well.  I realized  am the one it effects not him.  It was a relief, I hate needles and almost cried last night.  I didn't have as much anxiety as when I did it at the vets.   He was great, layed down in his spot on the bed and let it all go in, like he didn't even feel what was going on.  He is such a good boy.   I warmed the bag and that helped.  

 

OK taking ideas on what to do next, what kinds of appetite stimulants could we try that don't cause "zippy" side effects?

 

I don't think I can afford a feeding tube.  I don't know if I would want to put him through the procedure, if he would do well.  There has got to be something else...

 

 

Janice

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post #46 of 50
2/16/12 at 11:45pm
Thread Starter 

Another great sub q tonight but he hasn't started eating anywhere enough yet.  I decided to break out the syringe again and give him an ounce or so just to get something in him but I don't seem to be able to wrap him in the towel well enough and he works his way out every time I begin to get anything out of the damn syringe.  And that piece of crap got trashed tonight after it got clogged and squirted food all over my bedroom.  The bed and clean sheets, the walls, the ceiling, the carpet the computer, me, my hair, my face, arms. Damn you name it and it has catfood all over it. All I could do was cry.   I thinned it AND ran it through the syringe twice in the kitchen before trying to give it to him and it worked fine untill I took it upstairs.  The plunger seemed to be stuck I couldn't even get out the last 1/2 ounce out of the tube with both hands.  How does anyone do this? I just don't get it.  I feel like I can't even work a stupid syringe, how can I possibly think I can take care of him if I can't work a simple syringe? I'm starting to wonder if I should just let him go.

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post #47 of 50
2/16/12 at 11:48pm
Thread Starter 

Another great sub q tonight but he hasn't started eating anywhere enough yet.  I decided to break out the syringe again and give him an ounce or so just to get something in him but I don't seem to be able to wrap him in the towel well enough and he works his way out every time I begin to get anything out of the damn syringe.  And that piece of crap got trashed tonight after it got clogged and squirted food all over my bedroom.  The bed and clean sheets, the walls, the ceiling, the carpet the computer, me, my hair, my face, arms. Damn you name it and it has catfood all over it. All I could do was cry.   I thinned it AND ran it through the syringe twice in the kitchen before trying to give it to him and it worked fine untill I took it upstairs.  The plunger seemed to be stuck I couldn't even get out the last 1/2 ounce out of the tube with both hands.  How does anyone do this? I just don't get it.  I feel like I can't even work a stupid syringe, how can I possibly think I can take care of him if I can't work a simple syringe? Why does this have to be so hard?

 

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post #48 of 50
2/17/12 at 12:51am
Hi There,
I wrote a thread about syringe feeding..... I hope it can hep you.... The video is on post 7 - I could not update the original post when the platform changed.... vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif
http://www.thecatsite.com/t/227858/syringe-feeding-lucky-video-if-your-cat-is-not-eating
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post #49 of 50
2/17/12 at 7:26am
Thread Starter 

What kind of syringe is that my vet gave me a 2 1/2 syringe it is so big I think that is one of the reasons it is so hard for me to work it even with only 1 1/2 oz of food in it.  I wish Buddy would be as tollerant as Lucky is. 

 

I bought some of the freeze dried chicken, Pure Bites brand, he likes those.  I keep giving him those because it is something.He prefers the wyson stuff but just doesn't eat very much.

 

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post #50 of 50
2/17/12 at 8:35pm
Thread Starter 

I just got off the phone with the vet, told her his appetite was not improving.  I asked about other appetite stimulants and possible pain medication.

 

Mirtazapine is not an option she wants to use as he is on the Methimazole... Cat nip not working, never seemed to effect his eating.Periactin did not seem to work, he took it for two days.   We agreed that it may be worth a second try now that he is on the nausea medication and the pepcid may be built up in his system a bit better.  We decided to try the vitamin B, methylcobalimine shot as it will absorb better and his stomach wouldn't be irritated by it.  He might be loosing vit b anyway since he's not eating (and all the rest).  I'll get one tomorrow and it will last a week.  Since I can do the sub q she said this should be easy to do, that way Buddy doesn't need to take yet another trip to the vet and it will save me the office visit cost. 

 

As for pain meds she agreed that his pancreas may be causing pain but is reluctant to use a steroid as the prednisole, "caused his ringworm to flare up" last time.  She is worried he will have the same problem and frankly that worries me too.  I couldn't handle watching him go through that let alone having to go through all the cleaning and bleaching I did to control it last time.  Did I mention I was anal retentive about that?  So steroids are not an option, at this time.  What  she did offer was Buprenex.  I think Buddy was sent home with this last April when he had his tooth extracted.  If so he seemed to do alright on it outside of the sleeping he did. 

 

Other than that she said I was doing every thing and that we could try syringe feeding but that it is stressful on them which could make him not want to eat as well.  I told her about last night, she had not much to say except that we may need to do an ultrasound.  They won't do it there, I would have to go to a specialist.  Does anyone know how much that costs?

 

He seems to be feeling a bit better today, he also likes the freeze dried chicken treats.  Wow they are expensive, but at least it is something he eats.  He still is interested in anything I am eating, it is so strange that he wants food but isn't eating much. 

 

Finally finished the last load of laundry from last nights explosion, lol. 

 

 

 

As always, thank you all.

 

Janice and Buddy

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