Random Thought about this Raw Forum

[mrsgreenjeens]

It's really kind of a shame that this Raw forum is separate, because I'm not sure that a lot of people are reading it that should be. (and getting excited)  Take ME, for instance.  The only reason I read it in the first place was because I became an Advisor and was assigned to the Nutrition forum, so I subscribed to all "nutrition" threads and just stumbled onto Carolina's "going raw" thread.  If not for that, I would still be completely in the dark! 

Just wondering how in the world we can get the word out about how good raw feeding really is.  I mean, I am just stunned by it all.  It seems not only to affect overall health, but hairballs, even behavior?  These changes in behavior that everyone is notices are just fantastic all by themselves. 

I guess we just need to be more diligent in inserting "raw" links in other threads?  I know AC has done that before, but it hasn't ever done anything for me before (sorry AC...just being truthful).  What can we do to really perk peoples interest?

 

[jcat]

The subforum was actually created to allow people to more easily get info on raw feeding and how to do it properly instead of having to sift through all the threads in Nutrition. Threads were moved here from Nutrition and new ones added.

 

[ldg]

I actually think it's nice it has its own forum. :nod: For those who ARE interested, it makes it easier to find. And for those who aren't? Even when links were provided, you didn't read them... so even if the threads were jumbled up in the nutrition forum, people wouldn't read them anyway if they're not interested in the subject.

Speaking for myself, the real stumbling block is fear. Fear of pathogens, fear of being able to meet the kitty's nutritional needs without hurting them.. and also just general issues with logistics.

Most of us blanch at the thought of eating a piece of raw meat. I don't know how many beef or tuna tartar eaters there are out there - I eat sushi and sashimi - Gary even makes it. But raw chicken? Goat? Lamb? duck? It's just like marketing pet food - lovely pictures of carrots and peas and corn and tomatoes - it appeals to people, yet is completely species inappropriate for cats. We can't help but put our own emotions about food into what we feed our pets. :dk:

A lot of people turn to it after running out of other options. I can't speak for Carolina, but I think it was a combination of really understanding how lacking the AAFCO guidelines were for our pet food, understanding that most pet food really is garbage from the human food industry (or worse) - and running out of options other than expensive surgery that may or may not have worked for Bugsy that all culminated in the decision.

I know for me it was debating AGAINST raw that, in the end, resulted in me feeding my cats raw. :lol3: The research that went into it led me to understand just what it means that our cats are carnivores. I still have reservations about feeding un-natural proteins (lamb, beef, etc) - but those are the proteins we have to choose from when feeding canned! So ultimately I see it as the "lesser evil" (poor choice of words, if someone comes up with a good suggestion, I'll edit) of the imperfect choices we have to begin with. :nod:

And honestly, until I began seeing these behavior changes in the kitties - and SO QUICKLY - I didn't believe it. I really didn't "get" how diet so directly could affect behavior. But for me, this "diet improvement" hasn't only been for the kitties. Gary and I have made SIGNIFICANT changes in our daily diet and routine - and we felt a lot better right away. So for me, it's not just watching the kitties - I "get" it now, the relationship between diet and behavior.

How to get the word out? Suggest without pushing, and link to information.

 

[auntie crazy]

The simplest and best way to spread the word is to simply talk about it, every chance you get.

When someone has a kitty with hairball problems, suggest a change in diet to raw (commercial or otherwise). Same thing with IBD, vomiting, diahhrea, obesity, diabetes and urinary tract issues.

Posts links to CatCentric.org, CatInfo.org, and Feline-Nutrition.org... and do it often. Never be pushy, but never stop putting the info out there. And every time you mention raw, give an example... real, honest this-is-what-happened-to-my-cat, to-Carolina's-cat, to-Lauren's-cat stories touch people on a level that a dry, if accurate, list of species-appropriate diet benefits never can.

You can't - shouldn't! - drop into a thread that's asking for the best kibble to feed and start explaining how horrible kibble is and describing the damage it does to cats.... however, if the thread, in the normal course of conversation, opens up to discussing diet in general, then by all means, get in there and talk about why kibble shouldn't be fed, and offer raw diets as an alternative.

Be gentle, but be persistent in posting to various threads - every thread is a new conversation seen by new eyes. Never argue - if someone makes the statement "I'll never feed raw!" just walk away. If / when that person's cat(s) becomes ill, they may very well remember the discussion and, because the raw feeding concept wasn't shoved down their throat, they will be much more likely to revisit the concept - and a cat's life might be saved. (Sounds dramatic? It's happened!)

The goal is to help as many cats become healthy through feeding them appropriately, not to make every single person we speak to believe in raw.

And have faith! In the famous words of Margaret Mead, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

AC

 

[mschauer]

For the record one of my cats, Zara, is a heavy shedder and prone to hairballs and switching to raw didn't change that one bit.

The only behavior changes I saw were with regards to energy level. They are all more energetic. But Coco and Toby didn't get along before raw and they don't get along after raw.

I'm not trying to discount the experiences of others. I'm just saying it isn't the same for everyone.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by mschauer


For the record one of my cats, Zara, is a heavy shedder and prone to hairballs and switching to raw didn't change that one bit.

The only behavior changes I saw were with regards to energy level. They are all more energetic. But Coco and Toby didn't get along before raw and they don't get along after raw.

I'm not trying to discount the experiences of others. I'm just saying it isn't the same for everyone.

No experience ever is. *shrug*

That's why having so many transitioning to raw at one time is so exciting - what benefit you don't see in one cat, you just might see in another.

AC

 

[feralvr]

Laurie- Your post says it so well and is exactly how I feel..... I was very, very freaked out about even looking at raw meat let alone touching it. But I kept an open mind and have been desperate to find a better diet for Pipsqueak and his FIC issues, allergy issues and immune deficiencies. AND after seeing the results from Wilbur on the raw - I was getting close. Then Carolina's thread, just did it for me to go all the way. I couldn't be happier as you all know

I also agree with Auntie's post - we have to be very gentle and I won't even talk about it to other OP's unless someone specifically asks.... "What is the best diet for a cat".... then I would share those links you have Auntie and share my own experience and share the threads we have going in the raw Forum. It seems to me that once someone finds out you are feeding raw they put up that wall and think ----- OH..... ONE of those :dash: . ------- and they shut down. I think if someone has an interest in raw feeding then the floor is ours to share at that point. Since I am new at this raw stuff anyway - I don't feel the best to give advice yet anyway :lol3:. Auntie you do a great job an offering up advice and not at all seeming pushy, not in the least. AND you knew I was lightly feeding raw for months now - not once did you push the envelope with me. You let me find my own way - as I will do for others too.

I also love that there is a Raw sub-forum to Nutrition because it gives people the option to view and read about Raw feeding OR like I was.... :lol3: just avoid it all together.

 

[feralvr]

For the record one of my cats, Zara, is a heavy shedder and prone to hairballs and switching to raw didn't change that one bit.

The only behavior changes I saw were with regards to energy level. They are all more energetic. But Coco and Toby didn't get along before raw and they don't get along after raw.

I'm not trying to discount the experiences of others. I'm just saying it isn't the same for everyone.

Very, very true. AND I do find it odd that Carolina, Laurie and I are all seeing such incredible changes in our cats behavior to one another :lol3: and it must seem like a conspiracy - but I assure you it is not. It is just an incredible coincidence and of course, that will not be the same for all people changing over to raw feeding. I seriously, flat out , cannot believe the changes in my cats - I am just blown away. No joke here. Here is another one..... Perla has NEVER been a lap cat or has never even sat by me on the couch, no snuggling with that one. BUT.... in the last two days.... she has come up on the couch at night to lay next to me about a foot away ... I just cannot get over the behavioral changes I am seeing in my cats. Mostly Perkins, Perla and Wendall - those three the most.

 

[carolina]

A lot of people turn to it after running out of other options. I can't speak for Carolina, but I think it was a combination of really understanding how lacking the AAFCO guidelines were for our pet food, understanding that most pet food really is garbage from the human food industry (or worse) - and running out of options other than expensive surgery that may or may not have worked for Bugsy that all culminated in the decision.

That was pretty much it Laurie..... But with Bugsy, it was more than the expense of it, really..... Several things happened that gave me the final push in re. to him.
In general, the AAFCO thread was a HUGE one..... Big, big turn around for me - at that point I was just utterly disgusted at the food, afraid at the lack of commitment for our babies safety, and feeling I had absolutely no control over what they ate, which meant their health :nod: I knew I had to do something - raw was an option to consider.....
With Bugsy...... There were a couple of things: One, when Gracie was sick, I got on hold of Dr. Escobedo, and we talked about him - he was to go back for a check up..... Of course we were concentrating on Gracie..... But that got me thinking..... What choices did I have with Bugsy? NONE. He can tolerate no drugs because of his liver..... He was "as good as it gets" but he was still not good..... The only option was exploratory surgery but then what? Because no matter what they find, Bugsy can not be treated long term..... The money.... yes, I would get it - I am no longer paying my car, and I just finished paying my debt too.... (well, Gracie's vet bills set me up a whole bunch as I had to take a stiff loan, but that was paid off this month it's all good :bigthumb. Also, Bugsy has insurance, so even though I would pay upfront, the surgery would be covered.... So that wasn't the issue, really..... The issue was to put my boy :heart3: through that extreme amount of pain and suffering...... risking finding out something that I wouldn't be able to treat anyways :slant: I was living in a status quo...... living life with his pudding like poop....... day in and day out...... Until that Ellen, the animal communicator, showed up in our lives...... I know that a lot of people don't believe this.... But she told me that Bugsy did not feel well..... he did have colic before going potty, and yes, he wanted me to look further into it as he did want to feel better. This stuck to my mind..... I was literally, out of options. This was it - I HAD to try something to save my boy...... My only regret is to not have done it sooner

Be gentle, but be persistent in posting to various threads - every thread is a new conversation seen by new eyes. Never argue - if someone makes the statement "I'll never feed raw!" just walk away. If / when that person's cat(s) becomes ill, they may very well remember the discussion and, because the raw feeding concept wasn't shoved down their throat, they will be much more likely to revisit the concept - and a cat's life might be saved. (Sounds dramatic? It's happened!)

Really? Has it?

I do think, in all seriousness, that raw just might have saved Bugsy...... :heart3: It is sooooo soon to speak, I know..... But for the first time in a long time, I have a perfectly healthy, strong BOY - I have a NORMAL kitty, with a normal immune-system
If anything, Raw saved him from a lot of pain and suffering..... in the nick of time..... as we were going to the vet to seek a solution.... and I am afraid this was going to be a drastic one......
Now we are still going soon - just this time with some excellent news!

 

[Anne]

Sorry to interrupt for a short commercial break 

Please keep in mind our forum rules and specifically -

Avoid pushing links to other cat sites, your own or otherwise. I work hard - very hard - on bringing traffic into this forum, not to see it sent away elsewhere... With all the posts made right here in the raw feeding forum, I don't see why you'd have to post links to other sites (especially if you have them in your signature as well - which, just a heads up, may be something we'll be changing in the future).

Thank you for your attention and cooperation

 

[mschauer]

Anne, thank you for the guidelines. I'm sure they will help in keeping future threads calmer. I hope anyway.

I understand why you don't like us posting links to other cat websites but I don't see how it can be avoided. Frequently the reason it is done as a way to authenticate an assertion or at least to  show that the assertion is supported by some authoritative source. Frequently the source is far from authoritative and I certainly would like to see an end to those! 

 

[ldg]

I think the key words in Anne's request are "Avoid," (if possible) - not "do not." Some of the sites are specialized, with referenced information and more authoritative information. :nod:

 

[mschauer]

Maybe it would help to have an example of a link that shouldn't be provided. I can't recall anyone ever providing a link that wasn't necessary within the context of the post.

 

[ldg]

Especially in the raw forum it'll be difficult not to use external links. There are some threads with links already in them - but threads themselves aren't "authoritative" information, and TCS doesn't really have any articles on raw food or supporting research type articles.

 

[Anne]

Like Laurie said, it's about avoiding when you can point them to a thread/post/article here. It's not unique to the raw forum either and it's something I prefer to see elsewhere on the site. We have outgoing links elsewhere too, where needed

A thought - you could create resource threads here on the forums, which would be compilations of things that you feel people often ask about. That should make it easier to direct to (and I can sticky these authoritative threads and feature them on the main page too). Also, I would suggest making one thread with recommended resources, on TCS and elsewhere on the web, then referring people to that thread when the need arises. We have the same thing in the behavior forum and it's a very popular thread (also stickied). It's one of our main entry points into the site, in fact, as Google loves such pages.

Bottom line, we want to help cats and cat owners and if and when that means linking to other resources, that's fine. I was just trying to illuminate an aspect which I realize most people aren't aware of.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

...
Posts links to CatCentric.org, CatInfo.org, and Feline-Nutrition.org... and do it often. Never be pushy, but never stop putting the info out there. And every time you mention raw, give an example... real, honest this-is-what-happened-to-my-cat, to-Carolina's-cat, to-Lauren's-cat stories touch people on a level that a dry, if accurate, list of species-appropriate diet benefits never can.
.....

Let me rephrase the above to read precisely how I meant it, "Posts links to CatCentric.org, CatInfo.org, and Feline-Nutrition.org to back up your assertions... and do it often." I was in no way attempting to redirect traffic from TCS; I love TCS!!

Originally Posted by Anne


Like Laurie said, it's about avoiding when you can point them to a thread/post/article here. It's not unique to the raw forum either and it's something I prefer to see elsewhere on the site. We have outgoing links elsewhere too, where needed

A thought - you could create resource threads here on the forums, which would be compilations of things that you feel people often ask about. That should make it easier to direct to (and I can sticky these authoritative threads and feature them on the main page too). Also, I would suggest making one thread with recommended resources, on TCS and elsewhere on the web, then referring people to that thread when the need arises. We have the same thing in the behavior forum and it's a very popular thread (also stickied). It's one of our main entry points into the site, in fact, as Google loves such pages.

Bottom line, we want to help cats and cat owners and if and when that means linking to other resources, that's fine. I was just trying to illuminate an aspect which I realize most people aren't aware of.

I am greatly relieved to hear this. Feeding raw is such a scary concept to so many that helping them see the benefits is pretty much impossible without providing links to authoritative sites.

AC

 

[ldg]

Like Laurie said, it's about avoiding when you can point them to a thread/post/article here. It's not unique to the raw forum either and it's something I prefer to see elsewhere on the site. We have outgoing links elsewhere too, where needed

A thought - you could create resource threads here on the forums, which would be compilations of things that you feel people often ask about. That should make it easier to direct to (and I can sticky these authoritative threads and feature them on the main page too). Also, I would suggest making one thread with recommended resources, on TCS and elsewhere on the web, then referring people to that thread when the need arises. We have the same thing in the behavior forum and it's a very popular thread (also stickied). It's one of our main entry points into the site, in fact, as Google loves such pages.

Bottom line, we want to help cats and cat owners and if and when that means linking to other resources, that's fine. I was just trying to illuminate an aspect which I realize most people aren't aware of.

Oh excellent! THANK YOU for the clarification! And yes, thank you for taking the time to post the forum rules, I'm SURE they'll come in handy.

AC - I think you should probably kick off the Raw Feeding Resources thread. :nod: I started one in the ferals forum MANY years ago. If I had it to do over, I'd take time to make it more organized. You've been researching for years - I'm sure you can put together a great start for a "sticky" thread.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by LDG

...
AC - I think you should probably kick off the Raw Feeding Resources thread.

I started one in the ferals forum MANY years ago. If I had it to do over, I'd take time to make it more organized. You've been researching for years - I'm sure you can put together a great start for a "sticky" thread.

I'll be happy to, Laurie (and thank you for the compliment)!!

AC

 

[rad65]

I like that the raw feeding forum is seperate. Sorry if this is controversial, but I have noticed many members on this site like to push extremely hard for everyone else to conform to how they feed their cats. Often nutrition threads that start out as "what brand of dry food should I feed" get responses like "feed all wet or all raw, or you're killing your cat."

I can't tell you the number of times I have seen a member nonchalantly say "if you can't afford wet/raw, you shouldn't have a cat," and I wish I was exaggerating. It's nice that some people do have the time, money and resources to feed raw, but the holier-than-thou attitude that comes with that gets old, especially since most people who feed raw are strong advocates for it.

If it went back to all nutrition is in the same subforum, there would be people who feed raw in every normal nutrition topic pushing for everyone else to feed raw. I'm not saying that advocating raw is bad, but it's unnecessary, usually unwanted and often condescending when someone advocates in a thread that has nothing to do with raw feeding.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by rad65


I like that the raw feeding forum is seperate. Sorry if this is controversial, but I have noticed many members on this site like to push extremely hard for everyone else to conform to how they feed their cats. Often nutrition threads that start out as "what brand of dry food should I feed" get responses like "feed all wet or all raw, or you're killing your cat."

I can't tell you the number of times I have seen a member nonchalantly say "if you can't afford wet/raw, you shouldn't have a cat," and I wish I was exaggerating. It's nice that some people do have the time, money and resources to feed raw, but the holier-than-thou attitude that comes with that gets old, especially since most people who feed raw are strong advocates for it.

If it went back to all nutrition is in the same subforum, there would be people who feed raw in every normal nutrition topic pushing for everyone else to feed raw. I'm not saying that advocating raw is bad, but it's unnecessary, usually unwanted and often condescending when someone advocates in a thread that has nothing to do with raw feeding.

Hmmm. I've been on TCS for six years and I don't think I've ever seen a post with which I disagree more.

I don't believe that anyone on TCS has a "holier than thou" attitude with regards to raw feeding. I think we can all agree I'm one of - if not the - strongest advocate for feeding a species-appropriate diet here, and I'm regularly complimented on how polite and informative my posts are; with few even approaching my passion and number of posts on this topic, I think it's fairly safe to say you are in error.

And while kibble does indeed cause a regrettably long list of diseases and ailments, I've never seen anyone make such a harsh statement as, stop feeding kibble "or you're killing your cat." In fact, I'm pretty sure something that insensitive wouldn't be tolerated.

Nor have I ever seen any of us suggest "if you can't afford wet/raw, you shouldn't have a cat." What an incredibly cold statement.

But maybe I'm not reading the same posts you are, Rad65. It's clear you feel very sensitive about this topic. I'm both sad and sorry if you have encountered someone somewhere who pushed you beyond the point with which you were comfortable.

Please believe that is NOT a behavior common to raw feeders, but is specific to whomever it was that you encountered.

And remember that it's not fair to paint an entire community with the same brush; we are all as individualistic as any group of people. We have our own differing viewpoints, our own experiences and beliefs. Maybe you could take a look at some of the currently active threads? You'll see we are all different, and shouldn't be treated as a "tainted" group that must be shuffled off into the corner, unseen and unheard.

AC