Commercial Raw vs Homemade Raw

Is that website saying it's a bit risky to give home made raw to cats?  How about commercial raw?  

space1101 said:

Is that website saying it's a bit risky to give home made raw to cats?  How about commercial raw?  

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Space, IMHO that website only tells one story, very biased, anti-raw.... I could not find one link that has anything to do about actually feeding raw and its benefits, which IMHO are many. There are links provided here that you can read about the benefits of the diet.
I will say that both Commercial AND handmade are ok. Some people are going to say kibbles are ok - others won't.... Some will say prescription food is ok, others wont..... It is the same with raw.
The great advantage of commercial (raw) diets is that they come ready and balanced/complete according to the AAFCO - making it easier to get started. Also, kitties who are already used to wet food find the transition to ground food very natural - while home made is usually chunks and require a little more time in order to get them accustomed in chewing the meat. There are several different Commercial diets, I have fed Nature's Variety - which has a 100% pathogen free guarantee - so has Stella & Chewy and Primal (on the poultry varieties) due to the process they use - High Pressure Processing.

Now, as you read, and study about raw, you will see certain things.... Sure, raw is just that - raw meat.... And anyone who handles raw meat, should use common sense for safe-handling.... Things like that. But one thing to understand about cats, is that their stomachs are very acidic, and their intestinal tract very short.... What that means is that bacterias that would affect a human, such as Salmonella, for example, don't really affect them... It takes a lot of it, and a very immune-compromised system for you to have any problems because of how their system works. First, they are protected by their stomach acids, then, by having a short intestinal tract, the food is eliminated much faster - the bacteria doesn't have enough time to harm them as much as it would harm us. Think about what cats eat in the wild and all the bacteria load they ingest in there..... They do not eat the food at once either.... They leave it there, and go back to eat later..... and they have no problems with it. A Dog/wolf will bury a raw bone and go back in the next day to eat - without an issue. I am not saying by any means to leave raw food around for them; just saying that in reality, they are much stronger than what we think - as this is what they were evolved to eat.

To protect us, we just handle the meat like we handle our own meat - we have the same care - washing the hands well before and after touching/feeding, washing the plates and boards immediately after feeding, and not leaving raw food around. If you cook raw meat for yourself, you know the guidelines already....
The meat for the pets is the same USDA quality meats that are come to us - minus the organs and the bones, of course.
So, to me, the risk is much more on mishandling then on feeding a raw diet itself.
Back to the commercial diets, I also LOVE Rad Cat, my favorite, have tried another brand, but didn't go well, and an order for another one was just delivered by UPS today - I will be trying as soon as I come back from my trip next week.
I was afraid of raw for a long time..... and today I am feeding, and IMHO it is the best move I did for the changes I am seeing on my babies. I also do a lot of research, read a lot, as I want to do the best I can.
In my research, I could not find vets testifying that treated Salmonella from raw..... . But I found quite a few that said that they kept prescribing prescription diets and were totally against raw, and little by little the raw feeding pets started going to their annuals looking better and better - issues were getting cleared up, and pets were no longer dealing with complicated diseases. Some of these vets went from skeptical, to curious, to feeding their own pets raw, to advocates, and to selling raw instead of prescription in their practices.
I have read a few of these turn around, and what is interesting to me, is that these are the same vets that were prescribing Hills, and saying Raw was dangerous because of Salmonella, but in fact, they had never once treated a patient for that before.....
There is a lot of stigma with the diet..... And a lot of it IMHO comes from the pet industry, from us and other - simply for the fear of unknown.
Sure, does it come with risks? Yes - and again, IMHO these risks can be avoided with careful handling and feeding.... To me though, the benefits FAR outweigh the risks..... Not even a question.
There are risks with any diet..... But with raw, we have control and I can only tell you from experience from a recent convert, the changes I am seeing on my babies have been nothing but great.
Home made is certainly in my future, but I want to be ready and have enough knowledge to do the right thing :nod:
Here are some links for you:
feline-nutrition.org
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood
http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FEEDING YOUR CAT 8-10 Long 2-12-10.pdf
http://www.catinfo.org/

space1101 said:

Is that website saying it's a bit risky to give home made raw to cats?  How about commercial raw?  

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There is no reason to believe that feeding homemade raw is any riskier than feeding commercial processed foods.

I also think I should do more research before I give them home made raw since I'm not confident enough to do it.  I probably would have to get a grinder first... 

Carolina, my cats also like Nature's variety and primal.  They always lick the dish very clean so there is no waste of food.      About Hills, my cats have been on Hills dry for years because my vets recommended it.   I decided to switch to wet after I joined this forum, and I notice my cats have better digestive system and appetite than before.   Now I don't trust my vets' advice on nutrition any more. XD.

space1101 said:

Is that website saying it's a bit risky to give home made raw to cats?  How about commercial raw?  

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Yes, that website is saying it's risky to give home made raw to cats.

There are three pathogen-free commercial raw alternatives: Nature's Variety, Stella & Chewy's, and the poultry from Primal. These companies use [URL=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0963996904001061]High Pressure Processing[/URL].

You may also be interested in my response to this question.

Aristotle said:

...This is a wierd question, but can a cat get salmonella from raw meat? :dk:  

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In this thread: Human food that's great for cats?

LDG said:

Well, now, that's a very interesting question, and one that's been subject to great debate on this site. :lol3:

The answer is yes, cats can get salmonella. BUT, that needs to be qualified from three perspecitves:

1) The problem of salmonella exists in kibble
2) The prevalence of salmonella and other pathogens in human grade meat, and
3) The ability of a cat to contract illness as a results of ingesting contaminated kibble or meat

1) problem of salmonella exists in kibble.
Many commercial dry food recalls have been due to salmonella. Here's a list of pet food recalls since 2009 as hosted at the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association). Not all of them have the reason for the recall listed in the title, but a quick perusal of the list and it's clear - salmonella is the primary reason for recalls. That's why "safe handling" procedures are recommended by the CDC for handling cat kibble:
http://www.cdc.gov/Features/SalmonellaDryPetFood/

2) Prevalence of salmonella in our human meat supplies has fallen over the past decade: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/science/progress_report_salmonella_testing/index.asp

According to the USDA:
As it is typically the outside of the meat that may have a problem, the CDC has established safe-handling procedures for prepping/preparing meat for human consumption... so if you wash the outside of your meat, as you would before you cook it, wash your hands the the prep utensils and area, there shouldn't be any problem feeding raw meat to your cat. In fact - many people feed their cats an all raw diet (which would include bones and organs, mimicing the profile of prey they would eat in the wild). Thus the Raw Feeding subforum.

3) The real source of debate is not whether there is salmonella contamination of our cat food or our human meat - but the extent to which it impacts our cats. If your cat has been on antibiotics, all the "good" flora in their gut is wiped out, and this definitely makes them susceptible to pathogens like salmonella. :nod: (Which is why people feeding raw ought to cook the meat while their cat is on antibiotics - or at least sear the outside, and put their cats on a probiotic, to help re-establish the good gut flora). But normal, healthy cats SEEM (there are no studies) to be able to handle some exposure to salmonella with no adverse effects. Cats are carnivores, and have a very simple digestive systems. The theory is that the very acidic environment of the stomach destroys most pathogens/bacteria they ingest, as with their natural diet (mice, small rodents, rabbits, bugs, small reptiles, etc) they are exposed to these pathogens. Here is anecdotal evidence in support of that theory: http://www.peterdobias.com/community/2012/01/2664/

According to the vet (responding to criticism of another vet about feeding cats a raw diet):

That said, no doubt about it, cats can get sick from salmonella or other pathogens. It APPEARS more common (no studies to support this) from eating contaminated kibble, because the LOAD is so unnatural. It is very rarely deadly - that would be if contracted by an already sick (health compromised) cat. Symptoms are usually mild: vomiting or diarrhea. Far less common are a fever and severe vomiting and/or diarrhea.
Hope that helps you make an informed decision.

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space1101 said:

I also think I should do more research before I give them home made raw since I'm not confident enough to do it.  I probably would have to get a grinder first... 
Carolina, my cats also like Nature's variety and primal.  They always lick the dish very clean so there is no waste of food.      About Hills, my cats have been on Hills dry for years because my vets recommended it.   I decided to switch to wet after I joined this forum, and I notice my cats have better digestive system and appetite than before.   Now I don't trust my vets' advice on nutrition any more. XD.

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You don't need to get a grinder for home made.... you give whole pieces of meat, organs, bones..... cut them up, and serve - not need to grind. All on the right proportion, of course..... Much better for the teeth :nod: When I move mine to a homemade raw, that's how I am going to do it - frankerprey..... I was thinking about getting a grinder..... But pieces of meat is just so much healthier and more beneficial for their oral health..... that's what I am going to do :nod: My Bugsy can use that for sure :nod:

space1101 said:

I also think I should do more research before I give them home made raw since I'm not confident enough to do it.  I probably would have to get a grinder first... 
Carolina, my cats also like Nature's variety and primal.  They always lick the dish very clean so there is no waste of food.      About Hills, my cats have been on Hills dry for years because my vets recommended it.   I decided to switch to wet after I joined this forum, and I notice my cats have better digestive system and appetite than before.   Now I don't trust my vets' advice on nutrition any more. XD.

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I feel the same way about "homemade" raw right now. I don't feel I have the knowledge needed to add in all of the nutritional supplements and it is much easier for the novice to start with commercial raw IMO. If someone asked me a year ago if I would even consider raw - the answer would have been - NO .... Never say never :lol3:. I just started feeding commercially made raw meat to my cats. I feel confident in the three HPP brands and my cats love their new diet. If cats are already eating wet food the transition to commercially made raw is very, very simple. The changes I have seen in my cats has been tremendous in just ten days of eating a mixture of raw meat and high quality wet food. Just incredible and at this point - I am convinced that this IS the best thing for my cats and I am so very excited to see even more positive changes as the days go on. :happy3:

I also agree that most vets know nothing about nutrition or very little and are in "bed" with Hill's. Money making for both Hills and Vets. I would not trust most vets advice on feeding cats and most are anti-raw because they are in fact like most pet owners when it comes to feeding raw - they are afraid of the mishandling of raw meat and what that could problematically cause. I felt that way too a year ago. Not any more. I plan on starting a thread along with the other's here in the Raw Forum whom have just converted to raw as well. I just have to share the ASTONISHING changes in all of my cats. I just can't keep it to myself any longer Can't wait to share

Thanks for links LDG,  I was reading this article yesterday and was worried about the statement that "  In the June report, 45 percent of commercial raw meat diets fed to greyhounds tested positive for salmonella."    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/salmonella-lurks-in-pet-foods-too/   But after reading your explanation, I now know we just need to make sure they have healthy gut flora, and  both commercial raw, home made raw have the same level of risk.

Feralvr, would you consider feeding them 100% commercial raw?   For some reason, my cats still enjoy all those varieties of canned with beautiful labels.  (God, they have been eating the same boring Hills dry from breakfast to dinner for years)    I'm still not sure what the best diet is, that's why I feed both...

For those who are concerned about the safety of raw vs Kibbles/canned.... Take a look at this, and form your own conclusions:

These are ALL the recalls for raw foods (4 In Total)
Results for 'Raw' in All of Pet Food Recalls

Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Diet 2010

Feline's Pride - 2010

Wild Kitty 2007

Primal Pet Foods - 2011

Now - lets see the commercial Kibbles and Canned since 2007? (you can click here http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/newpetfoodrecalls/#Cat
and find out more about each recall)

Cat Products Recalled

AMERICAS CHOICE

AUTHORITY

BEST CHOICE

CAT'S CHOICE

CO-OP GOLD

COMPANION

COMPLIMENTS

DEMOULAS MARKET BASKET

DOCTORS FOSTER AND SMITH

EUKANUBA

FAME

FELINE CLASSIC

FELINE CUISINE

FINE FELINE CAT

FOOD LION

FOODTOWN

Feline's Pride

Friskies

GIANT COMPANION

GIANT EAGLE

HILL COUNTRY FARE

HY-VEE

IAMS

KASCO

Kroger

LA GRIFFE

LAURA LYNN

LI'L RED

LOVING MEALS

MASTER CHOICE

MEIJER MAIN CHOICE

NATURAL ULTRAMIX

NUPET

NUTRIPLAN

NUTRO

NUTRO CHOICE

NUTRO COMPLETE CARE

NUTRO MAX

NUTRO NATURAL CHOICE

Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Diet, Chicken Formula

NutraGold

PAWS

PERFORMATRIN ULTRA

PET PRIDE

PRESIDENT'S CHOICE

PRICE CHOPPER

PRIORITY

PRIORITY US

PUBLIX

PetPride

Premium Edge Adult Hairball Cat

Premium Edge Finicky Adult Cat

Prescription Diet

Primal Pet Foods

Purina

ROCHE BROTHERS

ROUNDYS

SAVE-A-LOT

SCHNUCKS

SCIENCE DIET

SOPHISTACAT

SPECIAL KITTY

SPECIAL KITTY CANADA

SPECIAL KITTY US

SPRINGFIELD PRIZE

SPROUT

STOP & SHOP COMPANION

Spa Select

TRIUMPH

VF Hairball

WEGMANS

WEIS TOTAL PET

WESTERN FAMILY

WESTERN FAMILY US

WHITE ROSE

WINN DIXIE

Wellness

YourPet

Cat, Dog Products

BLUE BUFFALO

Country Value

DIAMOND

DINGO

DOCTORS FOSTER & SMITH CHICKEN

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Venison

EVOLVE

HARMONY FARMS

HEALTH DIET

LICK YOUR CHOPS

NATURAL BALANCE

Nutra Nugget

Pounce

Professional

Royal Canin

Dog Products

ALPO

AMERICAS CHOICE

AUTHORITY

AWARD

American Bullie

BEST CHOICE

BIG BET

BIG RED

BLOOM

BLUE BUFFALO

Beef Hooves

Beefeaters

Berkley & Jensen

Blue Wilderness

CADILLAC

CANINE CAVIAR

COMPANION

Champion

Country Value

DEMOULAS MARKET BASKET

DIAMOND

DINGO

DOCTORS FOSTER & SMITH

Dentley's Beef Hooves

Dentley's Knucle Steaks

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Venison

Digger's

Disney

Dollar General

EUKANUBA

FOOD LION

GIANT COMPANION

GRREAT CHOICE

Good Buddy

Grandpa Louie's Dog Treats

Gravy Train

HARMONY FARMS

HILL COUNTRY FARE

HY-VEE

Happy Tails

Hartz Naturals

IAMS

Jerky Treats

Jones

KASCO

KIRKLAND

Kroger

LAURA LYNN

LOVING MEALS

MEIJER MAIN CHOICE

MIGHTY DOG

MIXABLES

MULLIGAN STEW

Merrick

Merrick Beef Filet Squares

Merrick Beef Filet Squares Dog Treats

Merrick Beef Filet Squares and Merrick Texas Hold 'Ems

Merrick Junior Texas Taffy

Merrick TEXAS HOLD "EMS

NATURAL BALANCE

NATURAL LIFE

NUTRIPLAN

NUTRO

NUTRO MAX

NUTRO NATURAL CHOICE

NUTRO ULTRA

Natural Way

Nurture

Nutra Nugget

NutraGold

OL ROY CANADA

OL ROY US

Ol' Roy

PAWS

PET ESSENTIALS

PET PRIDE

PRESIDENT'S CHOICE

PRICE CHOPPER

PRIORITY CANADA

PRIORITY US

PUBLIX

Perfect Pals

Pet Life

Pig Ears for Pet Treats

Planet Dog Eats

Pork Chomps

Premium Natural

Professional

ROCHE BROTHERS

Royal Canin

SAVE-A-LOT

SCHNUCKS

SHEP

SHEP DOG

SHOP RITE

SPRINGFIELD PRIZE

SPROUT

STATER BROTHERS

STOP & SHOP COMPANION

Safe-Guard

Sensible Choice

SmartPak

WEGMANS BRUISER

WEIS TOTAL PET

WESTERN FAMILY US

WHITE ROSE

WINN DIXIE

Wysong Maintenance Canine Diet packaged

Wysong Senior Canine Diet

Wysong Synorgon Canine Diet

Yourpet

Dog, Cat Products

AUTHORITY

AWARD

BEST CHOICE

CO-OP GOLD

COMPLIMENTS

HEALTH DIET GOURMET CUISINE

HILL COUNTRY FARE

HY-VEE

LA GRIFFE

MASTER CHOICE

NATURAL LIFE

NUPET

OL ROY CANADA

PERFORMATRIN ULTRA

PET PRIDE

PRESIDENT'S CHOICE

PRIORITY

SCHNUCKS

SPRINGFIELD PRIZE

STATER BROTHERS

TRIUMPH

TRULY

WESTERN FAMILY

Carolina, I just wanted to add: after the Nature's Variety recall, they implemented the HPP pathogen free guarantee on the raw food. :nod: Same for Primal - that's why all the poultry products are now HPP. Wild Kitty, I don't know.

space1101 said:

Thanks for links LDG,  I was reading this article yesterday and was worried about the statement that " In the June report, 45 percent of commercial raw meat diets fed to greyhounds tested positive for salmonella." 
  http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/salmonella-lurks-in-pet-foods-too/  But after reading your explanation, I now know we just need to make sure they have healthy gut flora, and  both commercial raw, home made raw have the same level of risk.

Feralvr, would you consider feeding them 100% commercial raw?   For some reason, my cats still enjoy all those varieties of canned with beautiful labels.  (God, they have been eating the same boring Hills dry from breakfast to dinner for years)    I'm still not sure what the best diet is, that's why I feed both...

Click to expand...

And commercial dry food also runs the salmonella risk. :nod:

As I mentioned before - there's salmonella in the food chain. It's on the factory farms, it's in the slaughterhouse, it's in the manufacturing and processing plants. We THINK we're safe with canned and dry pet food because of the high heat used. But as the recalls clearly indicate, that just simply isn't the case. It's not that the high heat doesn't kill it - it's that it's contaminated somewhere else along the line. The additional risk with canned and dry pet food is ingredients. Grains are subject to various molds - one is Aflatoxin. There have been a number of aflatoxin-related recalls this year because of how moist much of the corn crop was. And aflatoxin doesn't make pets sick - it kills them.

Some of the recalls have been for too much "Something" - a mineral, a vitamin - or too little something... or, as in 2007 when 8,500 some pets died, it was a toxic ingredient in the wheat gluten so many companies used.

It's a matter of learning about the risks of ANY diet, and weighing the benefits.

These posts have been split off from a different thread, so the first few may seem a bit disjointed.

I feed homemade raw, and am much less concerned about germs than anyone on here apparently, I think most on here would have a heart attack at my house lol.  People worry a lot about germs but I've yet to hear of anyone whose pet or themselves have actually gotten sick, just because we brought them into our homes hasn't changed the fact they are carnivores and perfectly capable of eating raw meat.  My cat sometimes drags food off her mat onto the carpet, her food might sit out a few hours if it's a larger piece, often she eats the meat first and comes back to the bone after.  My ferrets get whole prey frequently and those items sit out all day while they work on it, a couple days if it's rabbit, being ferrets they also like to stash stuff until it's jerky and they drag food all over their room.  My dog usually eats her raw over the carpet and she gets anything the ferrets and cat don't finish so it's usually sat out all day or night.  I don't wash anything down with bleach, I use water and vinegar but not daily or anything, nor do I really worry about what I'm touching, I'm pretty much always carrying around and chopping meat.  I do feed commercial raw sometimes to my ferrets, but I don't like the fact that it's crazy expensive, there's no teeth cleaning benefit and most have veggies in them but it's the only way they will eat beef and the only way I can afford lamb.  I wouldn't bother with stuff like chicken and turkey, why pay $6 a pound or more for something that's under a $1 at the grocery store?  The cost is why I switched off canned for my cat to raw in the first place so it doesn't make sense to me. 

I hear you GoingPostal. :lol3: I don't wear gloves or go nuts with the washing. When Gary and I prepare meat for ourselves, we rinse it off, pat it down and cook it. I do wash my hands once it's in the pan, the broiler or the oven, and when we're done, I do spritz down the counters with our regular cleaner, BioKleen.

We're feeding commercial raw for several reasons:

1) I wanted to start with the pathogen-free foods. One of our kitties has cancer and has been on chemo and prednisolone since late July. His last treatment is next Monday. We also have an FIV+ kitty. The vets wanted us to start with commercial foods - I took it a step further, and wanted the pathogen-free until I was sure they were handling raw well and I was comfortable feeding them raw. :nod:

2) Yes, home made raw will cost a LOT less than commercial. But the commerical raws I'm using, and the way I'm buying them, I've worked it out so that over the course of a week the cost runs about the same as it would have for the canned we were feeding. :nod: My thinking is that if we can switch to raw for the same cost as canned, it's better for the kitites. And I get to build my comfort level with feeding raw.

3) Logistics. We don't have freezer space to source the food I need for feeding them home made raw. With 8 cats, at about 1.5 to 2 pounds of raw food a day, I need 11 to 14 pounds a week. We have a 7 cu ft refrigerator/freezer (we live in an RV). We're working on freezer space.... and by the time we figure it out, I'll probably be ready to move them to home made. :lol3:

As far as bacteria and cats go, I am completely comfortable feeding them fresh, whole grocery-store meat. I've been frankenprey feeding six (sometimes more) cats for a few years now with no issues, and the information I've uncovered through years of researching the topic is definitive enough to give me confidence they can handle anything I'd be willing to throw at them. That, along with the additional benefits of total control over what they eat - it's freshness, balance and quantity - and reduced cost, along with the oral health and psychological benefits to the cats of having to actually *work* to eat... well, I actually see *no* benefit in feeding *my* cats commercial raw.

That said, commercial raw foods have their place, and as the first raw food most cats will eat, they are invaluable. I couldn't be more excited each time a new raw product comes to market!

---------------------------------------

When it comes to general cleanliness, however, I do clean up the counter surfaces and such after every meal. Nor do I let my cats drag food around - prevention of that very behavior is why four of them eat in cages. I'm not obsessive about it, but people *do* get sick from bacteria brought into the house on meats and I have a four-year old granddaughter with another grandchild due in May - in no manner will I chance their health.

Like everything, it's a balance of risks and rewards. Manage the risks, maximize the rewards, and you're all set.

AC

space1101 said:

Thanks for links LDG,  I was reading this article yesterday and was worried about the statement that " In the June report, 45 percent of commercial raw meat diets fed to greyhounds tested positive for salmonella." 
  http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/salmonella-lurks-in-pet-foods-too/  But after reading your explanation, I now know we just need to make sure they have healthy gut flora, and  both commercial raw, home made raw have the same level of risk.

Feralvr, would you consider feeding them 100% commercial raw?   For some reason, my cats still enjoy all those varieties of canned with beautiful labels.  (God, they have been eating the same boring Hills dry from breakfast to dinner for years)    I'm still not sure what the best diet is, that's why I feed both...

Click to expand...

Sorry, felt I should add something to this! It's not just ensuring healthy gut flora. If doing home-made raw, because of the prevalence of salmonella or whatever in the food chain, normal safe handling practices ARE important. It's just it's usually the outside of the meat where the problem is IF there is one, so washing it down is more important because you're not going to cook it.

So you wash meat before using it? LOL, I guess when I was a kid my family never ate any meat other than ground beef (in spaghetti sauce, etc.) or chicken nuggets, and I don't prepare meat for myself, so I have no idea. Just rinse it under running water? Pat it dry with paper towels? Does that really get rid of germs?

Most likely not, and my guess would be dripping water off meat or chicken probably increases the risk of cross contamination. :lol3: But my mom always did, and Gary prefers to. My guess is my mom had the habit because she grew up on a farm where my grandfather butchered the meat and chickens were killed and plucked before they were cooked, so "stuff" was probably being rinsed off. :lol3: Why Gary insists... I have no idea. I'm pretty sure cooking or chemicals are the only thing that kill bacteria.

As GoingPostal points out - resistance is probably the best defense.

Edited to add: I've never actually looked up safe handling procedures as per the USDA. I think I'll go take a look.... But no, we don't rinse ground meat, just cuts.

How about parasites?  Is there anyway to prevent that?

By the way, I gave my cats raw scallop yesterday (about 20g for each), and all ran into litter box within 10 minutes and had running stool.  I rinsed the scallops in hot water.  Too rich??  But they were fine with the cooked scallops before.  Does anyone know why?

I don't know a thing about scallops. :dk:

And what parasites in meat? The only thing that pops to mind would be spoiled meat, so I'm not sure I understand the question.