or Connect
TheCatSite.com › Forums › Our Feline Companions › Cat Nutrition › Help me find a low phosphorus canned food!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Help me find a low phosphorus canned food!

post #1 of 54
Thread Starter 
Mazy is already refusing the Before Grain beef. She was never finicky or seemed to tire of the c/d kibble, but as you may know it has started making her sick.

I am searching desperately but cannot find another canned cat food with phosphorus under .8% (dry matter) She's beginning to lose weight now, this cannot happen!

320
post #2 of 54

Organix and By nature organic have lower phosphorus than Before Grain, but By nature organic has menadione.

Or can you sprinkle some freeze dried on Before Grain to make it more taste better? 

post #3 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post


I am searching desperately but cannot find another canned cat food with phosphorus under .8% (dry matter) She's beginning to lose weight now, this cannot happen!
 


Sorry, I don't know what's going on with Mazy, but why does she need such a low phosphorus food?

 

post #4 of 54

Here's a chart that was last updated in October, showing the Phos. levels in lots of different canned foods.  Problem is, it doesn't list the ingredients.  Hopefully it will give you some place to start though.

 

http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm#canned_usa

post #5 of 54
otto, I'm having a very hard time not going crazy, out of my mind, after reading your post.
So please, tell us, does Mazy have end stage kidney disease that makes a low-phosphorus diet necessary to keep her alive? Because preventing struvites has absolutely nothing to do with a low-phosphorus diet and, in fact, such a diet will destroy the health of your baby.
post #6 of 54
Thread Starter 
I am just looking for decent canned foods that have similar phosphorus and magnesium percentages to the c/d that she is no longer eating. The c/d kibble controlled her urine pH and kept the struvite formation down, but she was regurgitating it daily so I took her off it.

Before Grain canned beef is very close, slightly higher in phosphorus, slightly lower in magnesium. But, while she has eaten the c/d kibble day in and day out with out complaint, she is already rejecting the BG beef, though for the first week she ate it with enthusiasm. So I am looking for other foods with similar numbers, so she can have some variety, like my other cats do.

Her pH is currently vacillating between 6.75 and 7. So I may be trying an acidifier soon.

Sorry it took me so long to come back to this thread, I've been sick.
post #7 of 54
otto. extremely important information for you. It explains why healthy cats should not have a low-phosphorus diet.
 
This article
 
under
The relationship of urine pH and Struvite crystals:
explains that

 

Quote:
Oxidation of sulfur amino acids during the process of catabolism (chemical breakdown: when the body uses food for energy as part of the metabolism) of amino acids from proteins to urea, carbon dioxide, sulphate, and water has acid forming properties, influences the acid-base balance of the body and urine pH. This process does not take place when fats or carbohydrates are catabolized. Therefore, the carnivore cat – eating a largely all meat, high protein diet – will naturally produce a low, or acidic urine pH.

 

 
And this excerpt from Shawn Messonnier DVM's book Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats (page 85) explains that
 

 

Quote:
If the urine can be maintained with an acidic pH, the dietary concentrations of magnesium and phosphorus do not need to be lowered below recommended daily amounts. In fact, reducing the magnesium levels in cat food can cause increased excretion of calcium from the kidneys, leading to the formation of calcium oxalate stones in the bladder. In fact, the increased incidence of calcium oxalate stones in cats and dogs has coincided with an increased use of commercial "stone" diets containing reduced magnesium and phosphorus (often labeled under the term "ash"). Feeding recommended levels of phosphate to normal cats does not promote stone formation. Phosphate is needed to allow the urine to maintain an acid pH, which helps discourage crystal and stone formation.

 

 
LINK:
 
I urge you to please give these two things very serious thought: avoid all foods that contain carrageenan and consider the possibility of allergy to main ingredients and added ingredients (needed to balance commercial diets) because allergy to anything, absolutely anything, any food ingredient, can affect pH balance. (This also applies to supplements, Chinese medicine, etc.)
 
Something is going on with Mazy that at this point you don't understand but with the right approach you will be able to find the normal, healthy diet that will allow her pH to stay in the desired slightly acidic range.
post #8 of 54
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the information. Remember that I have been going through this with Mazy for years. I keep trying to get her OFF the c/d by putting her on decent canned cat foods and it always back fires. So as I said I am looking for foods that have similar phosphorus/magnesium percentages as the c/d, since that is the only food that seems to control her FLUTD.

Carrageenen is in just about every "premium" brand now. What is it about it you don't like? It is a seaweed derivative, used either as a thickener or a binder.

Raw is not an option.

Okay I've read TAPF's take on carrageenan. However as I said, I haven't yet found an all meat canned food that doesn't contain it.
Edited by otto - 1/26/12 at 5:47am
post #9 of 54
Okay, just quickly, about carrageenan.
 
I was forced to find information about it years ago when the manufacturer of the food our first cat was eating switched from using guar gum to carrageenan and our cat got so sick that, day after day, he couldn't keep any of this wonderful "improved" formula down.
 
I found what I was looking for in this little book. And it explained everything. The book is still available today, after all these years.
 
Anyway, I learned that, basically, carrageenan interferes with the normal functioning of the stomach. It depresses peptic activity and inhibits pepsin and other gastric enzymes.
 
Well, this kind of thing has to have consequences. And it's impossible not to wonder what kind of problems can arise that we wouldn't even think of.
 
After articles about some harmful effects of acid blocking medications started to appear in the newspapers, I found an article written by a naturopath. And I realized that one paragraph in his article would most certainly apply to our cats as well. He wrote:
 

 

Quote:
Our bodies go to a great deal of trouble to make stomach acid, and they do so for good reason. Acid kills bacteria, viruses and molds before they can enter the body. Acid also converts the minerals in food into chemical forms we can absorb. In addition, acid is essential for digesting food so nutrients can be absorbed. It should come as little surprise that interfering with the process of making acid creates problems.

 

Link:
 
As for carrageenan being in just about every premium brand now, since you have a very serious problem to solve, I would urge you to stop buying those foods and go with foods without carrageenan only. Even if they are not premium brands. You need to think of the long-term consequences of feeding foods that are completely wrong for healthy cats and act before those foods have a chance to affect your baby's health.
 
Also, from
 
Since

 

Quote:
In recent years, more attention has been directed towards high blood pressure, low potassium levels, acidified diets, and dental disease as possible contributors to the development of CRF

 

you have one more very powerful reason to solve Mazy's problem by finding normal, healthy food for her.
 
 
post #10 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet View Post


As for carrageenan being in just about every premium brand now, since you have a very serious problem to solve, I would urge you to stop buying those foods and go with foods without carrageenan only. Even if they are not premium brands. You need to think of the long-term consequences of feeding foods that are completely wrong for healthy cats and act before those foods have a chance to affect your baby's health.
 

Do you really think that foods that contain artificial flavors, dyes, artificial preservatives, sodium nitrites and sodium nitrates, menadione sodium bisulfate, wheat gluten, are better to feed than a food with carrageenan?

I don't Violet, I just don't know. I don't see how I can go back to feeding my cats that kind of disgusting junk. I just don't think I can do it.

You make is sound so easy, blithely telling me to feed her a diet of "mostly meat" but without the carrageenan. Most foods, premium or not, do not contain only meat. They are either full of the disgusting things mentioned above (dyes etc) or they are full of other fillers, the fruits and veggies that are of no use to a cat. Weruva, Soulistic and Before Grain are foods I have found, that do not contain all the fillers, either the grain/gluten/fake kind or the fruit/vegetable kind.

In the rotation I feed the other cats, there are three brands that do not contain carrageenan or the things listed above. Soulistic, Weruva and Castor&Pollux. Mazy won't eat the Soulistic or the Weruva. Not to mention those two are so low in calories I'd have to give up eating myself, to feed them that and nothing but that. The Castor&Pollux, which Mazy cat ate today (and regurgitated) contains spinach and other fruits and veggies, but no carrageenan.

The Natural Balance "platefuls" pouches that I have recently been trying are full of potatoes and carrots, no carragenan, but low in calories and protein. the NB canned products contain carrageenan.

All the other brands currently in rotation: Wellness, Merrick, Natural Life, California Natural all contain carrageenan and useless fruits and vegetable fillers. Before Grain has the carrageenan but no fruits and veggies.

She has an appointment next Tuesday. I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with her esophagus.

A re-cap of her diet/health history, if you're interested, to follow. smile.gif
post #11 of 54
Thread Starter 
Violet I appreciate your comments and willingness to help. But here's the thing. Mazy was on a canned diet (fancy feast, no fish) when her problems first started.

She was about a year old when she had her first UTI and then proceeded to have two more all within a six month period. I was, at the time in a search for a new vet, so the first two were with two different vets. The third time she saw the vet I still use now. This vet recommended a urine culture at which time, it was discovered her urine was full of struvite crystals. Chock full, poor little thing. My vet recommended Hills Prescription c/d. My other cats at the time (all three gone now) remained on their canned Fancy Feast diets.

Mazy did well on the c/d. Her eyes were bright, energy good. Her urine checks were all normal, normal pH, no crystals.

Then the melamine poisoning happened. Suddenly I realized I knew very little about cat nutrition and pet food in general, except that canned food was better than dry. I began educating myself, and the more I learned the more I hated having Mazy on that c/d kibble. I tried the canned, she wouldn't eat it..

I began to switch my other cats to what I hoped was better food. My first try was...Nutro I think. Once that transition was done, I tried Mazy on the canned c/d again. She wouldn't eat it, so I put her on the canned Nutro. within 3 months she had a UTI. Another culture showed a high pH, bacteria and struvite crystals. Antibiotics and back on the c/d kibble.

Nutro was okay for about 10 months, maybe a year (I lost one cat during that time, unrelated to diet, my Bibbs rbheart.gif ) but was extremely inconsistent, and then were bought out by Mars and the new batches took a nose dive in quality. All cats refused to eat it. My next try was Wellness. Everyone seemed to do pretty well on Wellness, though it took coaxing to get them to eat it. Ootay rbheart.gif wouldn't eat it at all, she was put back on Fancy Feast, as by then she was at the end of her life, in a "give her anything she'll eat" situation.

Wellness made all these wonderful claims about promoting a healthy urine pH and healthy urinary tract, so I tried Mazy on that. This time I timed the switch for 2 months before she was due for her annual bloodwork/UA.

Again, Mazy's pH was up (7.5) and her urine was full, full, of struvite. Back on the c/d kibble for her. I again tried the canned c/d. She declined.

In addition, Jennie got her one and only UTI while eating Wellness full time. Tolly rbheart.gif 's pH in a routine UA was 7.5. My next try was Innova, the Flex Stew line. Tolly rbheart.gif LOVED this food and thrived on it. My gosh I'd never seen him so healthy. Jennie was having constipation problems and the Wellness chicken seemed to be the only food that didn't make the problem worse. However it is so high in calories, and Jennie seemed to get fat so easily, she was only eating 3 oz a day. So I was trying to vary her diet a bit.

Mazy stayed on the c/d.

Natura sold out to P&G and P&G discontinued the Flex Stew line. I was devastated on Tolly's behalf, and for the remainder of his time with me (about 2 1/2 years) it was a constant trial and error trying to find foods he would eat. However as I was trying all these foods I decided it was better for the cats to eat as wide a variety as I could manage, to prevent this happening again. (Favorite or only food disappearing, nothing to feed them) Except for Mazy cat of course, remained on the c/d.

I also discovered the Before Grain and liked it much better than the Wellness, Jennie really improved in every way, on it. Last spring I tried Mazy on the Before Grain. The results were the same. Her pH went up, her urine had struvite. Not a lot this time, but more than what should occur "naturally".

Back on the c/d she went. Again, tried the canned c/d, again she refused it. I noticed she was regurgitating more, but she also has trouble with hairballs and I chalked it up to that. Then c/d changed the size and shape of the kibble. The regurgitation got worse. Until I came to the point I am at now, where I just couldn't take it any more.

So I took her off the c/d. I started with Before Grain beef because the numbers matched the c/d pretty closely. Mazy ate the BG beef for 6 days with no complaint, no regurgitation, no vomiting. Her activity level increased, and she seemed much happier. I was thrilled!

Then a few days ago I began a new batch of BG beef. She refused it. And continued to refuse it, though Queen Eva and jennie eat it just fine. Desperate for her to eat something I gave her the c/d. She regurgitated it. Since then she's been getting little tastes of everything I've got in the house. Some (like the Weruva, which I would very much like her to eat) she will not eat. Others she'll eat, and sometimes keep it down and other times regurgitate. It doesn't matter if they have carrageenan or not. This morning she had Castor&Pollux chicken and vegetable casserole. .75 ounces split into two servings. No carageenan. Up it came. Later in the day I offered her the Castor&Pollux again, and she ate it and kept it down, with no trouble at all.

She now has an appointment with the vet, next week, I guess an x ray would be the next step to see if there is some blockage, or some trouble with her esophagus.
post #12 of 54
otto, there is such a thing as trying too hard. And, no doubt, you've been doing exactly that. You need to take a break, give yourself a break, and start over. I really mean that.
 
One brand you mentioned was causing struvites in cats many years ago already, as far back as in 2000. I'll never forget how shocked owners were when they upgraded to that brand and their cats developed struvites in a few weeks. On the other hand, some owners find that's the only brand that works for their cat. It's all about individual body chemistry.
 
Carrageenan is a horrible ingredient. And it's possible to find many foods without it. One can even find ordinary foods without sodium nitrite.
 
As for disgusting junk....well.......when cats live 18, 19, 20 + years on it without major health problems, one has to wonder. Some years ago one cat in our area celebrated his twenty-third birthday. He was written up in the local paper and, of course, the owner was interviewed.
And everyone wanted to know what kind of special diet this cat had. It turned out, no special diet, no premium foods, nothing that could even be called high-quality. Good genes, lucky kitty.
 
Now, I'm not trying to defend the disgusting junk.
 
But what I often think about is this. In their natural environment cats wouldn't eat the grain, vegetable and fruit ingredients cat foods are full with these days, either to make owners think these ingredients make the foods better or to save on the expensive animal protein ingredients or both. I'll never forget, a breeder and raw feeder said to me once in an email, such foods are perfectly fine for raccoons. But cats? Ridiculous. And she was absolutely, totally right. And, I can't help it, I have to add that, in their natural environment cats wouldn't be feasting on food thickened with carrageenan either.
 
I would have to say, the more we think about the awful ingredients that go into our cats' foods, the more we come to realize there is only one way to get away from them.
 
Food coming up at breakfast and staying down later in the day brings back memories. Including a lovely 750 dollar vet bill and three cats pronounced perfectly healthy.
Turned out the problem was all my fault. We were trying to do timed feedings at the time and there was simply too much time between supper and breakfast. The throwing up was the result of a very empty stomach. They were all slow eaters, so eating too fast had nothing to do with it. After that lovely vet bill and all the worry we went back to the way we were, food available for the kitties during the night. No more throwing up in the morning, lesson learned.
 
 
post #13 of 54
PS
 
otto, don't forget, a pH problem can be remedied if you start using a cranberry supplement such as Carpon and, since you're checking the pH, you'll never have to be afraid that you're over-acidifying because you can adjust the amount of Carpon you're giving based on your daily readings.
post #14 of 54

Otto, how much water does Mazy drink per day?  Some vet told me cats with struvite have to drink 25ml per pound of body weight.  Do you think he drinks enough?

post #15 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet View Post

otto, there is such a thing as trying too hard. And, no doubt, you've been doing exactly that. You need to take a break, give yourself a break, and start over. I really mean that.
 

Yes, I agree with you, I'm feeling pretty stressed over it at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet View Post


One brand you mentioned was causing struvites in cats many years ago already, as far back as in 2000. I'll never forget how shocked owners were when they upgraded to that brand and their cats developed struvites in a few weeks. On the other hand, some owners find that's the only brand that works for their cat. It's all about individual body chemistry.

You mean the Wellness. yes, I warn people against feeding it exclusively all the time. smile.gif But like you say, some cats do fine on
it. Forever.

Quote:
Carrageenan is a horrible ingredient. And it's possible to find many foods without it. One can even find ordinary foods without sodium nitrite.

As for disgusting junk....well.......when cats live 18, 19, 20 + years on it without major health problems, one has to wonder. Some years ago one cat in our area celebrated his twenty-third birthday. He was written up in the local paper and, of course, the owner was interviewed.
And everyone wanted to know what kind of special diet this cat had. It turned out, no special diet, no premium foods, nothing that could even be called high-quality. Good genes, lucky kitty.

23 years eh. And I wonder how that cat felt, all those 23 years, eating foods full of dye and wheat gluten and who knows what else? He couldn't tell his owners he had a stomach ache every day, could he. It's not just about longevity and perceived health, in my mind. I want them to feel good, too.
Quote:
Now, I'm not trying to defend the disgusting junk.

But what I often think about is this. In their natural environment cats wouldn't eat the grain, vegetable and fruit ingredients cat foods are full with these days, either to make owners think these ingredients make the foods better or to save on the expensive animal protein ingredients or both. I'll never forget, a breeder and raw feeder said to me once in an email, such foods are perfectly fine for raccoons. But cats? Ridiculous. And she was absolutely, totally right. And, I can't help it, I have to add that, in their natural environment cats wouldn't be feasting on food thickened with carrageenan either.

It's true. They won't eat fruit or carrageenan. They won't eat cows either. Or lambs. Or venison. Or dye. or "artifical flavor". But my cats don't live "in the wild". They live with me. They live in a warm dry house with home made beds, a human who plays with them and brushes them and talks to them, every day. They don't have fleas or parasites, they aren't targets for predators or cars or sick people.
Quote:
I would have to say, the more we think about the awful ingredients that go into our cats' foods, the more we come to realize there is only one way to get away from them.

Pitch them outside and let them hunt?laughing02.gif In all seriousness, making cat food is not an option for me. The risk that they would not get the nutrients they need is too great. I don't trust the supplement manufacturers any more than I trust pet food manufacturers. Feeding raw is also not going to happen. I don't have the resources for it.
Quote:
Food coming up at breakfast and staying down later in the day brings back memories. Including a lovely 750 dollar vet bill and three cats pronounced perfectly healthy.
Turned out the problem was all my fault. We were trying to do timed feedings at the time and there was simply too much time between supper and breakfast. The throwing up was the result of a very empty stomach. They were all slow eaters, so eating too fast had nothing to do with it. After that lovely vet bill and all the worry we went back to the way we were, food available for the kitties during the night. No more throwing up in the morning, lesson learned.

Thank you. I have come to the same conclusion Violet, that this may very well be a case of Mazy going too long without food over night. Mazy is not a scarf and barfer. Mazy is a slow eater. And I am feeding only small quantities at a time. So perhaps something has happened in her personal chemistry, so her body can no longer go nine or ten hours without food. Leaving food out is not an option. I don't feed dry. And anything left out would be eaten by Jennie, anyway.

When Ootay was old and sick she couldn't go more than a few hours without food. I arranged my life around it. Including getting up every night at 3 a.m. and giving her a snack. After Ootay died, I continued to wake up at 3 a.m. every night for almost a year. Mazy is not old and sick, she is only 7 1/2. So I guess I'll have to re-train my body to start waking up at three a.m. and slipping her a little something.

And on days when I have to be away from home more than 8 hours, I will give her a little pepcid to help her body cope with the excess acid in her tummy.

I haven't gotten the carpon yet.

As for the carageenan, yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I can tell you feel about carageenan the way I feel about dye, and menadione sodium bisulfate and artificial stuff, and sodium nitrite. I am not finding many canned foods I am willing to feed that don't have it. So far, only the ones I've already mentioned. And remember, the cats have to be willing to eat the food, or it does no one any good at all.

Violet I do appreciate your efforts to help. I really do.
post #16 of 54

(((HUGS)))  

post #17 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by space1101 View Post

Otto, how much water does Mazy drink per day?  Some vet told me cats with struvite have to drink 25ml per pound of body weight.  Do you think he drinks enough?

Thanks for your reply, Space. While she was on the c/d kibble she was a very poor drinker, and definitely did not drink enough. Now that I am, again trying her on a canned diet she does not drink at all. I have very hard well water (heavy on the minerals) and I'm half convinced that my water was at least part of the problem all the time.

In previous attempts to get her off the c/d kibble and onto a canned diet, I also added water to her food. She invariably started having trouble again. This time I am not adding any water, just the canned foods.

Violet I was at the feed store yesterday. I only found one canned food that does not contain carrageenan. It was the By Nature organic line (the regular line has carrageenan) However the By Nature organic line, while it does not contain carrageenan, contains the mendadione, an ingredient which does the same thing to me that carrageenan does to you. (and is starting to do to me frown.gif)
post #18 of 54
otto, all I can say is this. Food that is supposed to be the best, according to someone's idea who considers himself/herself an "expert", is absolutely, totally meaningless. The only thing that matters is how a particular cat reacts to a particular food.
 
The ingredient you mention is simply a synthetic version of vitamin K. Good, bad, it doesn't matter. Toxic in high doses? Why and how would a cat get it in toxic high doses? Think about it. Not from ordinary cat foods millions of us feed every single day.
 
I have to tell you a story here that illustrates that getting obsessed with food ingredients can be deadly. Some years ago there was a young man in Germany who developed some kind of preoccupation with food ingredients and whatever. He stopped eating this, that, things he considered unhealthy, dangerous. In the end there was nothing left in his diet but milk, and he decided he shouldn't have that either, for whatever reason. He died. Starved to death. When he died, his story was in every newspaper. I don't know if we can find anything about him on Google today, even though this didn't happen a very long time ago. I would say probably 15-20 years ago at the most. But I do have to say this. I don't want some "experts" manipulating us into the same situation with our cats and, unfortunately, there is no doubt in my mind that that's exactly what some of these "experts" are trying to do. Manipulate us, that is, and, unfortunately, for our own, our beloved cats' detriment. When we start listening to the fear-mongering of these "experts" and start avoiding perfectly good foods because they contain whatever ingredients these experts claim may be harmful and, as a result, find ourselves in a hopeless situation where the foods they tell us to feed simply don't work, we have to stop and take a real good look at what we are doing and why. And start being in charge and go back to feeding foods that will help rebuild the health of our babies. Regardless of what these "experts" think, what they want us to think about those foods.
 
Problems with digestion, lack of enzymes, etc, can cause horrific problems with nutrient absorption and utilization. Sometimes there are problems with the basic body chemistry we can't even figure out. All we know is that this and that, many things, simply don't work.
So what we can do is this. Avoid the things we know can seriously interfere with nutrient absorption and utilization and try to find the supplements that are known to help with the problems we are struggling with. It should be that simple and clear cut, if we keep in mind the principles of nutritional healing of health problems.
 
I feel that, after all I've written, I need to send you more (((hugs))). 
 
 
post #19 of 54

Otto, I have a cat who had struvite crystals.  He's fine (two and 1/2 years and counting - the treatment was prescribed C/D).  What does your vet say about Mazy regurgitating the C/D kibble?  If I understand correctly, that's the main physical reason you're transitioning her to other foods?  And that you're not happy with the ingredients is the other reason?  I'm just wondering what has been done about the causes of the regurgitation - knowing how you love your cats, I'm know you and your vet have been working on that angle as well.  Assuming you can figure out what's causing the regurgitation (and I'm assuming it's not the usual suspect - that's she's eating C/D too fast because that's the only thing she likes), would you keep her on dry C/D?

 

To be clear, my boy is on C/D - he's not a big wet food liker (never was, ever since I adopted him as a 3-4 year old stray).  He eats a bit of the wet C/D, but his main food is the dry C/D kibble.  He appears to be healthy and happy - and I have senior panels done every six months.  My girl is also on the C/D wet and dry.  I'm in the camp that if the cats are doing well on the food the vet recommended for crystals, I'm not going to mess around and stress both myself and my cats.  My little girl is a nibbler all day long (and in the middle of the night), and I work outside the home 12 hours a day, five days a week - I'm not home to give her many tiny meals per day. I'm the contrarian here - I thank God daily that Hills (and the other manufacturers) kept working to find a treatment for struvite crystals, and produce it both wet and dry.  And I don't care if C/D is made from old car tires, or if every person on the internet rails against it - it's working for my boy so far.

 

I'm not particularly worried that cats in the wild wouldn't be eating C/D kibble - or this, that, or whatever ingredient....cats in the wild tend to die by, what, the age of three if they're lucky to live that long?  Hardly have time to develop dietary issues.  What concerns me is the here and now of my cat - who's currently running around the front room, tail up and asking me to play. 

 

I sincerely hope you find an answer for Mazey - I am still anxious waiting for the results of Dante's urine tests every six months, and do the happy pee ball dance every day.

 

 

post #20 of 54
Gail, this food definitely doesn' t have the phosphorous profile you seek, but if you're willing to try the Carpon Violet mentioned, this might be a good food to have in rotation: http://www.natureslogic.com/products/cp.html
post #21 of 54
I haven't gone through this list for the guaranteed analysis, but I thought you might find it helpful if you haven't seen it. In this thread, http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food , we were discussing pet food ingredients, AC mentioned this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post


....... {snip}
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Speaking of which, after gaining a better understanding of what really goes into pet foods, what can we buy to feed our kitties?

There is, course, the many raw options being explored on other currently active threads (here and here), and this is what I recommend. By law, the meats used to prepare these foods are exactly the same as those we purchase for our own families. Right from the get-go, then, these foods are fresher, more complete and healthier for our kitties.

What if you're not ready for raw?

Not all pet food manufacturers are big-time conglomerates focused only on the bottom line. There is at least one that uses USDA approved meat, I think, and many that avoid some of the most notorious ingredients.

So look for foods that don't contain (pulled from Pet Food Ingredients to Question):

Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT) - Produced through the rendering process; the fat that rises to the top of the pot becomes Animal Fat.  FDA testing of pet food linked this ingredient to the discovery of the euthanizing drug pentobarbital (used to end the life of dogs, cats, and horses) in pet food.  Any animal including euthanized animals, road kill, diseased animals (per FDA associations) can be the source of this fat.

Canola Oil - A controversial ingredient not tested for safety with pets.

Carrageenan - A seaweed extract used as a thickener; linked to serious illness.

Ethoxyquin - A chemical preservative linked to serious illness. Often used to preserve fish meal pet food ingredients.

BHA/BHT - Chemical preservatives linked to serious illnesses.

TBHQ - A chemical preservative related to BHA. Studies have shown that prolonged use has links to cancer.

Corn, Soy, and Wheat - Allergens. Mycotoxins. The majority of grain products are genetically modified; recent science has linked GM corn to liver and kidney disease in animals. Not needed in a cat's diet!!!

Food Dyes - Linked to everything from tumors to hyperactivity.

All by-product meals (chicken by-product meal, turkey by-product meal, poultry by-product meal, meat by-products) - Could be sourced from healthy internal organs of slaughtered animals OR the from diseased tissues rejected as human grade.

Meat and bone meal - The rendered product from mammal tissues, including bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents…  FDA testing of pet food linked this ingredient to the discovery of the euthanizing drug pentobarbital (used to end the life of dogs, cats, and horses) in pet food. Any animal including euthanized animals, road kill, diseased animals (per FDA associations) can be the source of this ingredient.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe we can start pulling together a list of pet foods that don't contain these ingredients? Anybody have something in their cupboard right now that could start the list off?

AC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post

Just found a beautiful example of marketing over transparency that I thought I'd share.

The company NutriSource sells two products called "Chicken, Turkey, Lamb & Fish Kitten formula" and "Chicken, Turkey & Lamb Cat and Kitten formula", and here are their ingredients:

Chicken, Turkey, Lamb & Fish Kitten formula
Chicken, Chicken Broth, Turkey, Chicken Liver, Lamb, Ocean Fish, Brown Rice Flour, Dried Egg, Flaxseed Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Kelp, Alfalfa Meal, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Ascorbic Acid, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Niacin, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ehtylenediamine Dhydriodide, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Chicken, Turkey & Lamb Cat and Kitten formula
Chicken, Chicken Broth, Turkey, Chicken Liver, Lamb, Ocean Fish, Brown Rice Flour, Dried Egg, Flaxseed Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Kelp, Alfalfa Meal, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Ascorbic Acid, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Niacin, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ehtylenediamine Dhydriodide, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Do you see the difference? No? That's because there is none... this is the same formula, one marketed to include the fish and one marketed without it. If you bought both of these cans thinking you were giving your kitties two different flavors, you would be wrong. *facepalm*

Caveat emptor, indeed!!!!  (By the way - this formula doesn't include any of the recommended against ingredients. It does, however - obviously - contain fish.)

AC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post

Found some more products that don't contain any of the offensive ingredients listed above. Unlike the first few products I listed (I forgot to watch for this), all of these foods consist of at least 95% DMB of the named meat protein.

Nature's Logic Pet FoodFirst Alert Recall Participant!***
Chicken Dinner Cat Food Canned
Rabbit Dinner Cat Food Canned
Raw!! (all raws contain single source proteins)
Rabbit Frozen Cat Food Raw
Chicken Frozen Cat Food Raw
Beef Frozen Cat Food Raw

Nature’s Variety
Instinct Chicken Meal Formula Cat Food Canned
Instinct Beef Meal Formula Cat Food Canned (single source protein)
Instinct Lamb Meal Formula Cat Food Canned (single source protein)
Instinct Duck Meal Formula Cat Food Canned
Instinct Rabbit Meal Formula Cat Food Canned
Instinct Venison Meal Formula Cat Food Canned

Weruva Pet Foods

Paw Lickin' Chicken Canned Cat Food
Grandma's Chicken Soup Canned Cat Food
Steak Frites Canned Cat Food

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And there you go. I've spent the whole day researching this topic; I'm sure there are more canned foods out there that meet these criteria, but this is my contribution.

Best regards!

AC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

I have been looking too. laughing02.gif You are not alone in the search. Very tedious and I can't believe most of the big names, EVO, Core, Wellness all contain Carrageenan....
I found the Weruva products you listed above too.
Another one I found
Natural Balance Platefull grain free pouches:
Chicken & Giblets
Chicken & Chicken Liver
Turkey, Salmon & Chicken
Halo Spots Stew varieties
I also found the Instinct canned foods as well.
Will keep looking. yes.... Time consuming at best... But worth it agree.gif

dontknow.gif Thought it might help, just in case you hadn't seen it.
post #22 of 54
BTW, quick thought. I don't know how much you spend on canned food per day. But when I analyzed that in comparison to commercial raw, I found the "per pound" number (given how much raw I would have to feed my cats vs. how much canned I was feeding them and how much that cost daily) for commercial raw left me with a LOT of options for feeding. Ordering online is VERY expensive with shipping, and in some instances almost doubles the cost. But if you can find a local (or somewhat local LOL) pet store that sells raw that can ORDER for you, you may find that it's cheaper to feed raw. Once we're over the transition, it will be cheaper for us. agree.gif And our VERY limited freezer space is an issue... but given the store is stocking the food(s) for us, we're basically using his freezer space and picking up what we need when we need it. I'm able to keep close to a week of food on hand.

I put together a spreadsheet (that AC started) with an overview of most of the commercially available raw foods - very detailed. If you want to peruse the options and ingredients (and guaranteed analysis), it's available here: http://catcentric.org/raw-feeding/ Scroll down to special features, and you'll find it.

heartpump.gif
post #23 of 54
Thread Starter 
Thank you Laurie. I have looked at those foods. Spinach is all of them though. And that Montmorillonite Clay in the Natures Variety and Natures Logic. I've dithered over the nature's logic and nature's variety for months now. They just seem so over priced. But then, the prices of the other foods are catching up pretty quickly.

The Natures Variety and Natures Logic are high in calories, so I would have to feed less, which evens the price out a little. But it would not make Jennie happy. I do already feed Weruva in rotation, but Jennie is the only one who will eat it and it is so low in calories that, again, the price, relatively speaking, is astronomical.

I also feed Castor&Pollux chicken, which doesn't have the undesirables, except spinach.

I also feed the Nature's Balance platefuls, but only as snacks. They too contain spinach, and are low in calories, and so loaded with carrots and potatoes I really feel gypped every time I open a pouch. By the time I pick out all the potatoes and carrots there isn't much left laughing02.gif

Maybe once I get the BG used up I'll move over to NV and Nature's logic for that part of the rotation instead. The BG has been very inconsistent, each batch smells and looks different from the last, and that drives me crazy.

Then the only food the will be eating with carrageenan would be the By Nature. But I feel I need to feed SOME foods without spinach. And that's what the Before Grain does not have.

There are no pet stores where I live, I have no source for commercial raw and I will not make home made raw. While I find the raw transition threads inspiring, it just is not happening here, at this time.

Thank you for all your help.

Update on Mazy in the next post. smile.gif
post #24 of 54
Thread Starter 
Mazy is doing great on her canned diet now. Only one regurgitation in the last 9 days. And that was my fault, I urged her to eat more than she wanted. I keep a small dish of canned food at the ready, just a spoonful, to give her when I first get up, and when I first get home from work. I try to keep her from going longer than 8 or 8 1/2 hours without food, but sometimes it can't be helped. But I slip her that little snack, and then wait a while before feeding meals, and that is working.

Urine pH varying between 6.5 and 6.75 most of the time. This evening it was low, 6.0. That was after an 8 hour fast, and she hadn't peed in all that time either. She came down and peed while I was scooping the boxes (having just gotten home) and the pee was larger than usual for her, and the pH was 6.0. I know she hadn't peed all the time I was gone, not only by the size of it, but because there were only two pees in the boxes, from me being gone all day.

And I knew, even before Mazy peed that they were Jennie's and Queen Eva's, because of the sizes (Jennie's large, Queen Eva's small) and the locations (corners or edges of the boxes, Mazy pees in the middle except when she pees in the tall sided box and stands up to pee)

She gets a pate variety in the morning, it was Before Grain but the BG seems to raise her pH more than the By Nature, so I am gradually shifting her from the BG to the By Nature. Her supper meals are the Castor&Pollux chicken and vegetables. Both brands have only the meat and the vitamin&mineral supplements, none of those stupid fruits and vegetables. (that's my other complaint about the Nature's Logic and Nature's variety)

The Castor&Pollux does have fruits and vegetables, and the spinach, but it seems to balance her out.

Once in a while I give her some Natural Balance or Wellness, just to keep things mixed up. She won't eat the Weruva chicken flavors, but I've got the Steak Frites coming, maybe she'll like that.

She's still getting her hair ball remedy every 2 1/2 to 3 days, but I have not had to give her the mineral oil for constipation since taking her off the c/d kibble.
post #25 of 54
Yeah, it's so annoying to see spinach everywhere. rolleyes.gif You see it in a lot of the commercial raw foods too. I don't get it at all.

And I know exactly what you mean about feeling like you're wasting your money once you've picked out all the carrots and peas and/or potatoes! laughing02.gif I tried Spot's stew, and there was MAYBE a half a can left.

OH - I don't know much about that montmorillionite clay. It's usually listed as something that affects texture/consistency, but it's also used as a source of calcium.

*******************

That is just GREAT news about Mazy! I'm so pleased you've got the timing down, and the snack is helping too. hugs.gifrub.gifclap.gifclap.gif

BTW - my theory on the batch consistency is lack of additives. dontknow.gif
post #26 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

OH - I don't know much about that montmorillionite clay. It's usually listed as something that affects texture/consistency, but it's also used as a source of calcium.
*******************

Apparently the Montmorillonite Clay has "healing" properties, so why is it in a food for healthy cats? If I remember what I read, the clay has "binding" properties, meaning it binds to toxins, to remove them from the body.

And why oh WHY do these "premium" foods have to load up on the fruits and vegetables? It's infuriating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Yeah, it's so annoying to see spinach everywhere. rolleyes.gif You see it in a lot of the commercial raw foods too. I don't get it at all.

I had one pet food brand tell me :

Spinach contains an appreciable amount of vitamins, minerals and antioxidant carotenoids, especially lutein that has been shown to be supportive of the immune function in cats. For this reason, it has been included as an ingredient in one of our formulas.
Quote:
BTW - my theory on the batch consistency is lack of additives

Laurie, can you explain what you mean here?
post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post

Quote:
BTW - my theory on the batch consistency is lack of additives

Laurie, can you explain what you mean here?

It's just speculation, but because its not produced from highly processed ingredients, you get batch inconsistencies. This is the list of ingredients in the canned chicken before the supplements: Chicken, Chicken Broth, Dried Egg ( http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=114&s=20479 )
I would imagine you get a natural variation in color and consistency depending upon the chicken (or whatever protein base) in the food. dontknow.gif
post #28 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

It's just speculation, but because its not produced from highly processed ingredients, you get batch inconsistencies. This is the list of ingredients in the canned chicken before the supplements: Chicken, Chicken Broth, Dried Egg ( http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=114&s=20479 )
I would imagine you get a natural variation in color and consistency depending upon the chicken (or whatever protein base) in the food. dontknow.gif

Oh yes, that does make sense, thanks! Now if only they would drop the carrageenan. However when questioned about it, the reply I got was on the defensive side. frown.gif
post #29 of 54
otto, I am not sure if you are familiar with this brand..... but it is highly regarded on the CRF community - for both palatability and efficacy..... The ingredients.... at least 2 are questionable - but, C/D doesn't have the best either. Here you go: Hi-Tor


Product Description
The Hi-Tor Neo Diet is specifically formulated for cats requiring a low protein, restricted phosphorus diet to assist in management of renal disease. This formula is highly palatable in order to ensure adequate consumption and caloric intake.

Sufficient Water for Processing, Meat By-Products, Beef, Chicken, Pork Liver, Ocean Fish, Rice Flour, Guar Gum, Potassium Chloride, Carrageenan, Potassium Citrate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Vitamins (Vitamin E, A, B12, D3 Supplements, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin), Minerals (Ferrous, Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vegetable Oil,
post #30 of 54

I also found Fromm might be a brand that is low in phosphorus.    Although it doesn't say on its website, but a shop sales said it is.  It's carrageenan free.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Cat Nutrition
TheCatSite.com › Forums › Our Feline Companions › Cat Nutrition › Help me find a low phosphorus canned food!