Help me find a low phosphorus canned food!

Mazy is already refusing the Before Grain beef. She was never finicky or seemed to tire of the c/d kibble, but as you may know it has started making her sick.

I am searching desperately but cannot find another canned cat food with phosphorus under .8% (dry matter) She's beginning to lose weight now, this cannot happen!

I am just looking for decent canned foods that have similar phosphorus and magnesium percentages to the c/d that she is no longer eating. The c/d kibble controlled her urine pH and kept the struvite formation down, but she was regurgitating it daily so I took her off it.

Before Grain canned beef is very close, slightly higher in phosphorus, slightly lower in magnesium. But, while she has eaten the c/d kibble day in and day out with out complaint, she is already rejecting the BG beef, though for the first week she ate it with enthusiasm. So I am looking for other foods with similar numbers, so she can have some variety, like my other cats do.

Her pH is currently vacillating between 6.75 and 7. So I may be trying an acidifier soon.

Sorry it took me so long to come back to this thread, I've been sick.

Thanks for the information. Remember that I have been going through this with Mazy for years. I keep trying to get her OFF the c/d by putting her on decent canned cat foods and it always back fires. So as I said I am looking for foods that have similar phosphorus/magnesium percentages as the c/d, since that is the only food that seems to control her FLUTD.

Carrageenen is in just about every "premium" brand now. What is it about it you don't like? It is a seaweed derivative, used either as a thickener or a binder.

Raw is not an option.

Okay I've read TAPF's take on carrageenan. However as I said, I haven't yet found an all meat canned food that doesn't contain it.
Edited by otto - 1/26/12 at 5:47am

Do you really think that foods that contain artificial flavors, dyes, artificial preservatives, sodium nitrites and sodium nitrates, menadione sodium bisulfate, wheat gluten, are better to feed than a food with carrageenan?

I don't Violet, I just don't know. I don't see how I can go back to feeding my cats that kind of disgusting junk. I just don't think I can do it.

You make is sound so easy, blithely telling me to feed her a diet of "mostly meat" but without the carrageenan. Most foods, premium or not, do not contain only meat. They are either full of the disgusting things mentioned above (dyes etc) or they are full of other fillers, the fruits and veggies that are of no use to a cat. Weruva, Soulistic and Before Grain are foods I have found, that do not contain all the fillers, either the grain/gluten/fake kind or the fruit/vegetable kind.

In the rotation I feed the other cats, there are three brands that do not contain carrageenan or the things listed above. Soulistic, Weruva and Castor&Pollux. Mazy won't eat the Soulistic or the Weruva. Not to mention those two are so low in calories I'd have to give up eating myself, to feed them that and nothing but that. The Castor&Pollux, which Mazy cat ate today (and regurgitated) contains spinach and other fruits and veggies, but no carrageenan.

The Natural Balance "platefuls" pouches that I have recently been trying are full of potatoes and carrots, no carragenan, but low in calories and protein. the NB canned products contain carrageenan.

All the other brands currently in rotation: Wellness, Merrick, Natural Life, California Natural all contain carrageenan and useless fruits and vegetable fillers. Before Grain has the carrageenan but no fruits and veggies.

She has an appointment next Tuesday. I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with her esophagus.

A re-cap of her diet/health history, if you're interested, to follow.

Violet I appreciate your comments and willingness to help. But here's the thing. Mazy was on a canned diet (fancy feast, no fish) when her problems first started.

She was about a year old when she had her first UTI and then proceeded to have two more all within a six month period. I was, at the time in a search for a new vet, so the first two were with two different vets. The third time she saw the vet I still use now. This vet recommended a urine culture at which time, it was discovered her urine was full of struvite crystals. Chock full, poor little thing. My vet recommended Hills Prescription c/d. My other cats at the time (all three gone now) remained on their canned Fancy Feast diets.

Mazy did well on the c/d. Her eyes were bright, energy good. Her urine checks were all normal, normal pH, no crystals.

Then the melamine poisoning happened. Suddenly I realized I knew very little about cat nutrition and pet food in general, except that canned food was better than dry. I began educating myself, and the more I learned the more I hated having Mazy on that c/d kibble. I tried the canned, she wouldn't eat it..

I began to switch my other cats to what I hoped was better food. My first try was...Nutro I think. Once that transition was done, I tried Mazy on the canned c/d again. She wouldn't eat it, so I put her on the canned Nutro. within 3 months she had a UTI. Another culture showed a high pH, bacteria and struvite crystals. Antibiotics and back on the c/d kibble.

Nutro was okay for about 10 months, maybe a year (I lost one cat during that time, unrelated to diet, my Bibbs ) but was extremely inconsistent, and then were bought out by Mars and the new batches took a nose dive in quality. All cats refused to eat it. My next try was Wellness. Everyone seemed to do pretty well on Wellness, though it took coaxing to get them to eat it. Ootay wouldn't eat it at all, she was put back on Fancy Feast, as by then she was at the end of her life, in a "give her anything she'll eat" situation.

Wellness made all these wonderful claims about promoting a healthy urine pH and healthy urinary tract, so I tried Mazy on that. This time I timed the switch for 2 months before she was due for her annual bloodwork/UA.

Again, Mazy's pH was up (7.5) and her urine was full, full, of struvite. Back on the c/d kibble for her. I again tried the canned c/d. She declined.

In addition, Jennie got her one and only UTI while eating Wellness full time. Tolly 's pH in a routine UA was 7.5. My next try was Innova, the Flex Stew line. Tolly LOVED this food and thrived on it. My gosh I'd never seen him so healthy. Jennie was having constipation problems and the Wellness chicken seemed to be the only food that didn't make the problem worse. However it is so high in calories, and Jennie seemed to get fat so easily, she was only eating 3 oz a day. So I was trying to vary her diet a bit.

Mazy stayed on the c/d.

Natura sold out to P&G and P&G discontinued the Flex Stew line. I was devastated on Tolly's behalf, and for the remainder of his time with me (about 2 1/2 years) it was a constant trial and error trying to find foods he would eat. However as I was trying all these foods I decided it was better for the cats to eat as wide a variety as I could manage, to prevent this happening again. (Favorite or only food disappearing, nothing to feed them) Except for Mazy cat of course, remained on the c/d.

I also discovered the Before Grain and liked it much better than the Wellness, Jennie really improved in every way, on it. Last spring I tried Mazy on the Before Grain. The results were the same. Her pH went up, her urine had struvite. Not a lot this time, but more than what should occur "naturally".

Back on the c/d she went. Again, tried the canned c/d, again she refused it. I noticed she was regurgitating more, but she also has trouble with hairballs and I chalked it up to that. Then c/d changed the size and shape of the kibble. The regurgitation got worse. Until I came to the point I am at now, where I just couldn't take it any more.

So I took her off the c/d. I started with Before Grain beef because the numbers matched the c/d pretty closely. Mazy ate the BG beef for 6 days with no complaint, no regurgitation, no vomiting. Her activity level increased, and she seemed much happier. I was thrilled!

Then a few days ago I began a new batch of BG beef. She refused it. And continued to refuse it, though Queen Eva and jennie eat it just fine. Desperate for her to eat something I gave her the c/d. She regurgitated it. Since then she's been getting little tastes of everything I've got in the house. Some (like the Weruva, which I would very much like her to eat) she will not eat. Others she'll eat, and sometimes keep it down and other times regurgitate. It doesn't matter if they have carrageenan or not. This morning she had Castor&Pollux chicken and vegetable casserole. .75 ounces split into two servings. No carageenan. Up it came. Later in the day I offered her the Castor&Pollux again, and she ate it and kept it down, with no trouble at all.

She now has an appointment with the vet, next week, I guess an x ray would be the next step to see if there is some blockage, or some trouble with her esophagus.

Yes, I agree with you, I'm feeling pretty stressed over it at the moment.

You mean the Wellness. yes, I warn people against feeding it exclusively all the time. But like you say, some cats do fine on
it. Forever.

23 years eh. And I wonder how that cat felt, all those 23 years, eating foods full of dye and wheat gluten and who knows what else? He couldn't tell his owners he had a stomach ache every day, could he. It's not just about longevity and perceived health, in my mind. I want them to feel good, too.

It's true. They won't eat fruit or carrageenan. They won't eat cows either. Or lambs. Or venison. Or dye. or "artifical flavor". But my cats don't live "in the wild". They live with me. They live in a warm dry house with home made beds, a human who plays with them and brushes them and talks to them, every day. They don't have fleas or parasites, they aren't targets for predators or cars or sick people.

Pitch them outside and let them hunt? In all seriousness, making cat food is not an option for me. The risk that they would not get the nutrients they need is too great. I don't trust the supplement manufacturers any more than I trust pet food manufacturers. Feeding raw is also not going to happen. I don't have the resources for it.

Thank you. I have come to the same conclusion Violet, that this may very well be a case of Mazy going too long without food over night. Mazy is not a scarf and barfer. Mazy is a slow eater. And I am feeding only small quantities at a time. So perhaps something has happened in her personal chemistry, so her body can no longer go nine or ten hours without food. Leaving food out is not an option. I don't feed dry. And anything left out would be eaten by Jennie, anyway.

When Ootay was old and sick she couldn't go more than a few hours without food. I arranged my life around it. Including getting up every night at 3 a.m. and giving her a snack. After Ootay died, I continued to wake up at 3 a.m. every night for almost a year. Mazy is not old and sick, she is only 7 1/2. So I guess I'll have to re-train my body to start waking up at three a.m. and slipping her a little something.

And on days when I have to be away from home more than 8 hours, I will give her a little pepcid to help her body cope with the excess acid in her tummy.

I haven't gotten the carpon yet.

As for the carageenan, yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I can tell you feel about carageenan the way I feel about dye, and menadione sodium bisulfate and artificial stuff, and sodium nitrite. I am not finding many canned foods I am willing to feed that don't have it. So far, only the ones I've already mentioned. And remember, the cats have to be willing to eat the food, or it does no one any good at all.

Violet I do appreciate your efforts to help. I really do.

Thanks for your reply, Space. While she was on the c/d kibble she was a very poor drinker, and definitely did not drink enough. Now that I am, again trying her on a canned diet she does not drink at all. I have very hard well water (heavy on the minerals) and I'm half convinced that my water was at least part of the problem all the time.

In previous attempts to get her off the c/d kibble and onto a canned diet, I also added water to her food. She invariably started having trouble again. This time I am not adding any water, just the canned foods.

Violet I was at the feed store yesterday. I only found one canned food that does not contain carrageenan. It was the By Nature organic line (the regular line has carrageenan) However the By Nature organic line, while it does not contain carrageenan, contains the mendadione, an ingredient which does the same thing to me that carrageenan does to you. (and is starting to do to me )

Thank you Laurie. I have looked at those foods. Spinach is all of them though. And that Montmorillonite Clay in the Natures Variety and Natures Logic. I've dithered over the nature's logic and nature's variety for months now. They just seem so over priced. But then, the prices of the other foods are catching up pretty quickly.

The Natures Variety and Natures Logic are high in calories, so I would have to feed less, which evens the price out a little. But it would not make Jennie happy. I do already feed Weruva in rotation, but Jennie is the only one who will eat it and it is so low in calories that, again, the price, relatively speaking, is astronomical.

I also feed Castor&Pollux chicken, which doesn't have the undesirables, except spinach.

I also feed the Nature's Balance platefuls, but only as snacks. They too contain spinach, and are low in calories, and so loaded with carrots and potatoes I really feel gypped every time I open a pouch. By the time I pick out all the potatoes and carrots there isn't much left

Maybe once I get the BG used up I'll move over to NV and Nature's logic for that part of the rotation instead. The BG has been very inconsistent, each batch smells and looks different from the last, and that drives me crazy.

Then the only food the will be eating with carrageenan would be the By Nature. But I feel I need to feed SOME foods without spinach. And that's what the Before Grain does not have.

There are no pet stores where I live, I have no source for commercial raw and I will not make home made raw. While I find the raw transition threads inspiring, it just is not happening here, at this time.

Thank you for all your help.

Update on Mazy in the next post.

Mazy is doing great on her canned diet now. Only one regurgitation in the last 9 days. And that was my fault, I urged her to eat more than she wanted. I keep a small dish of canned food at the ready, just a spoonful, to give her when I first get up, and when I first get home from work. I try to keep her from going longer than 8 or 8 1/2 hours without food, but sometimes it can't be helped. But I slip her that little snack, and then wait a while before feeding meals, and that is working.

Urine pH varying between 6.5 and 6.75 most of the time. This evening it was low, 6.0. That was after an 8 hour fast, and she hadn't peed in all that time either. She came down and peed while I was scooping the boxes (having just gotten home) and the pee was larger than usual for her, and the pH was 6.0. I know she hadn't peed all the time I was gone, not only by the size of it, but because there were only two pees in the boxes, from me being gone all day.

And I knew, even before Mazy peed that they were Jennie's and Queen Eva's, because of the sizes (Jennie's large, Queen Eva's small) and the locations (corners or edges of the boxes, Mazy pees in the middle except when she pees in the tall sided box and stands up to pee)

She gets a pate variety in the morning, it was Before Grain but the BG seems to raise her pH more than the By Nature, so I am gradually shifting her from the BG to the By Nature. Her supper meals are the Castor&Pollux chicken and vegetables. Both brands have only the meat and the vitamin&mineral supplements, none of those stupid fruits and vegetables. (that's my other complaint about the Nature's Logic and Nature's variety)

The Castor&Pollux does have fruits and vegetables, and the spinach, but it seems to balance her out.

Once in a while I give her some Natural Balance or Wellness, just to keep things mixed up. She won't eat the Weruva chicken flavors, but I've got the Steak Frites coming, maybe she'll like that.

She's still getting her hair ball remedy every 2 1/2 to 3 days, but I have not had to give her the mineral oil for constipation since taking her off the c/d kibble.

Apparently the Montmorillonite Clay has "healing" properties, so why is it in a food for healthy cats? If I remember what I read, the clay has "binding" properties, meaning it binds to toxins, to remove them from the body.

And why oh WHY do these "premium" foods have to load up on the fruits and vegetables? It's infuriating.

I had one pet food brand tell me :

Spinach contains an appreciable amount of vitamins, minerals and antioxidant carotenoids, especially lutein that has been shown to be supportive of the immune function in cats. For this reason, it has been included as an ingredient in one of our formulas.

Laurie, can you explain what you mean here?

Oh yes, that does make sense, thanks! Now if only they would drop the carrageenan. However when questioned about it, the reply I got was on the defensive side.