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A New "Raw"some Beginning... (yup - another one LOL) - Page 4

post #91 of 563
Thread Starter 
OK- News Alert - ...... Pipsqueak is sick again with that virus...... He was fine this morning - but this afternoon I could not find him and he did not want to eat. I took his temp. 103.8 and he had diarrhea pretty badly today. Talked to Dr. Mark. He scolded me for not finishing the full ten day Metronidazole treatment two weeks ago. I only did it for six day because after 24 hours he was back to normal - plus I only did the first three days the full dosage and the next three days I split the dosage. anon.gif I do this with myself too with medications laughing02.gif Not good. So he is back on I/D for a day or so and I will completely "shelve" the raw diet for Pipsqueak at this time until he is completely recovered. I am too worried about him right now and don't want to make this change in his diet yet - even though I know this is NOT the cause because he was sick before starting raw anyway. AND he was really not eating much of it - and really only the NV rabbit. BUT I don't want to overtax his system - you know what I mean. agree.gif I will start him back up in a couple of week's once I know he is OVER whatever the problem is. I have to say again, and I know I mentioned this somewhere before in some thread somewhere flail.gif..... but I have forgotten how it feels to have just healthy, normal pets. It has been quite a trying last few months for me. sigh.gif

BUT hyper.gif the other FIVE are doing just incredibly well and finished up ALL of their meal tonight. Lots of Halo, Fortiflora and Temptation treat sprinkles - and they licked their plates clean of the Lamb!!! Walden and Wendall need no topping's - those two boys couldn't be any easier on their momma during this raw transision clap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gif WHY is that????? It must be the terrible abuse they sustained as youngster's and they are just so grateful for any food I feed them. They literally will eat anything I put on their plates heartpump.gif Just love those boys - I wish the other three were not so SPOILED!!!!!! AND that last one - the sixth kitty - THE most SPOILED of them all - my baby boy PIP. heartpump.gif

Tomorrow I move onto the NV Chicken mixed with the Lamb or just wet food - I don't know if I will get them to eat anymore lamb EVER cwm2.gifwink.gif
post #92 of 563
Oh Lauren... hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif I remember the first two years with our babies... it seemed like endless this or that.... and let's face it - you rescued the three Ps... and then Wendall and Walden... so you've got all that "rescue kitty" stuff that just has to run its course. agree.gif That said... I suspect that once you're over this hump, that'll be it. agree.gif ESPECIALLY with them operating at peak performance on raw. agree.gif (KNOCK WOOD lol).

And YOU ARE A VERY BAD GIRL! Your Doctor has never lectured you on this? Gary gets the lecture all the time because he simply cannot get it through his thick skull - if you don't finish the course of antibiotics, the bug just comes back with a vengeance! And this happens to him all the time. Apparently you haven't had that problem until now. dontknow.gif Gary's thing is he feels better... and wants to "save some" for when he gets sick again. rolleyes.gif He's a big boy - I can only argue so much with him. laughing02.gif Antibacterials don't treat viruses anyway... but if there IS a secondary bacterial infection, stopping the course of meds before you've taken ALL of them AS PRESCRIBED just leaves you open to getting SICKER when it comes back at you. frown.gif That's probably what's happened here with Pip. frown.gifrub.gifhugs.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif

Let's hope he gets over this one just as quick - only this time, give him the whole course of meds! heartpump.gif

Pip wasn't eating much raw yet, really, so I think sticking to canned until you're sure this is behind you is a good idea. It's not much of a step back with him. And because Metro IS an antibiotic, put him on a good probiotic, and give it that week or two after you've finished the meds before re-introducing raw to him. rub.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif

vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif for the Pipster! And a few vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif for meowmy too. hugs.gifheartpump.gif
post #93 of 563
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Laurie heartpump.gifsunshine.gif YEP - this IS bacterial now. AND you are right - Doc said the same thing - that not finishing up the Metro might have set him up for a quick relapse. anon.gif Anyway - he did have a little cough this morning and after he ate his eyes were a bit gunky. Started the Baytril prescribed by Dr. Mark. Have to nip this in the bud. Dr. Mark - is definitely on board about the raw thud.gif HE even know quite a bit about the raw. He told me also to wait (as did Auntie - in her email to help me hugs.gif) as you are now too laughing02.gif to wait to start him back on the raw until at least ten days after the antibiotics are finished and he is completely over this. There is no rush for Pipsqueak and the raw, that little by little the goal is to improve his overall quality of health. I will just start over in about three weeks, little by little..... biggrin.gif You just have to introduce the raw very, very slowly and methodically until the cat's do develop the proper digestive enzymes agree.gif Once they have that - is smooth sailing agree.gif Pipsqueak had an appetite this morning - he had 1/2 can of Weruva chicken soup mixed with a little I/D. I will not keep him on the I/D nono.gif only today until I see a good poop again.

OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now on to what this thread is really about jumping.gif RAW eating CARNIVORES woohoo.gifdance.gif My plan is to find ONE protein/brand as my baseline to use when I introduce other new proteins/brands. I am picking NV Chicken for this. Each cat devoured a small pea sized piece of the NV chicken. So I will use that as my baseline intro and I won't have to worry about not being able to get bags of that from the store. They will never run out of the NV Chicken like the rabbit. The rabbit would have been great to use a baseline - but I am completely out after today and cannot find it anywhere. Nature's Variety is saying end of February. But since rabbits are scarce right now - I need another baseline protein to use. I really like NV anyway and the cat's really love NV.

TODAY was 25% NV chicken, 25% Lamb (rolleyes.gif) 50% Core. Tomorrow will be 50% NV Chicken and then 75% Sunday and Monday 100%. THEN I am home free with a new baseline protein!!! 26.gif They almost did not want to eat because of the Lamb - sick of that. BUT Whole Life, Fortiflora and Temptation powder to the rescue. Everyone ate and cleaned their plates. Walden and Wendall are SO easy and need no topping's. The other three P's need some sort of topping. Perla loves the Halo or Whole Life. Works every time. SO A GREAT START TO MY DAY - ALL happy2.gifbiggrin.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gif

I do have a question - only out of curiosity - because I have seen this discussed here in the Raw Forum - feeding kibbles with raw meat. laughing02.gif I know - an oxymoron flail.gif I am not doing this and my cat's are completely off kibble and eating the S&C freeze-dried now hyper.gif but..... here is my question..... On the Nature's Variety frozen raw meat bags they state that you can mix any of the Nature's Variety raw frozen meats with ANY other Nature's Variety product including kibbles eekyellow.gif Could someone explain why this is not a good idea to feed kibble with raw and why Nature's Variety would advertise this dontknow.gifwavey.gif
Edited by Feralvr - 2/3/12 at 10:19am
post #94 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

I do have a question - only out of curiosity - because I have seen this discussed here in the Raw Forum - feeding kibbles with raw meat. laughing02.gif I know - an oxymoron flail.gif I am not doing this and my cat's are completely off kibble and eating the S&C freeze-dried now hyper.gif but..... here is my question..... On the Nature's Variety frozen raw meat bags they state that you can mix any of the Nature's Variety raw frozen meats with ANY other Nature's Variety product including kibbles eekyellow.gif Could someone explain why this is not a good idea to feed kibble with raw and why Nature's Variety would advertise this dontknow.gifwavey.gif
first of, big, big, huge vibes for Pips vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif and hugs for momma hugs.gif
I am wondering if you could try Rabbit from Hare Today - the price is great, and it is locally grown (in their farm, actually), it doesn't come from China, so you'd never run out of it. It comes ready, all you need to do is add the little spoon of supplement, which they sell too.
I bought some - I will intro and let you know how it goes.....
Here is the 1lb ($4.29/lb smile.gif )https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=114
Here is the supplement for it: https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=290
It adds $1.25 per pound..... Not bad!
Shipping is not bad AT ALL clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif

The Goat and Rabbit is grown at their farms, and all the other meats are sourced locally, hormone and antibiotic free, and USDA inspected. This is a great place, with excellent reviews agree.gif

To your question above..... Kibbles and raw do have different digestion times - specially if the kibbles have vegetables in it, so it is not a good idea to feed...... HOWEVER. A lot of introductions are done just like I did with Lucky - by putting a dollop of raw meat in the plate along with the kibbles. I did this for a month, and did not have an issue...... Sure she only ate a tiny little accidental bit of the raw, but I do not think I would have an issue otherwise either.....
Now...... Nature's variety is pathogen free, and it might make a difference there dontknow.gif The problem with mixing the two, is that the veggies and the carbs in the kibbles digest much slower, so the theory is that the meat (along with the pathogens) stick around in the digest system for much longer, which can create an issue for the kitty. Which is why they should be fed separately agree.gif
post #95 of 563
Thread Starter 
AH HA!!!!!!!!! Yes, that is exactly true.....that the kibbles don't digest as quickly as the raw and thereby leaving raw in their digestive system longer. HMMMMM I think I might just call Nature's Variety - just because I am curious about how they will answer that. Just a curious Lauren today, I guess laughing02.gif

Thanks for mentioning the Hare Today rabbit and yes, let me know how your babies do on it. I would have to get a freezer first though ( oh darn.... cwm2.gif) - so I could stock up on my baseline laughing02.gif GOOD excuse now to get one - Oh LARRY....... momma needs a kitty food freezer 3a.gifflail.gif
post #96 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

I would have to get a freezer first though ( oh darn.... cwm2.gif) - so I could stock up on my baseline laughing02.gif GOOD excuse now to get one - Oh LARRY....... momma needs a kitty food freezer 3a.gifflail.gif

Nah.... Just tell Larry you want to throw a huge spring BBQ to his buddies - that might make it a little easier to convince him crackup.gif
post #97 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Nah.... Just tell Larry you want to throw a huge spring BBQ to his buddies - that might make it a little easier to convince him crackup.gif

flail.gifflail.gif Oh that IS a good one! clap.gifbiggthumpup.gif (Of course he'd see right through you... but might appreciate the thought. laughing02.gif ).

EXCELLENT that Dr. Mark is on board with the raw! So what - we have these vets that "get" raw - yet never MENTION it? What's up with THAT? A liability thing???? dontknow.gif Wait until the client discovers it on their own, THEN help them with it?


....and I hear ya on the bored with the protein. agree.gif We've done 100% lamb, 100% chicken, 100% rabbit... they need something new. laughing02.gif

Hmmm.... better tell Gary about the BBQ I want to throw this spring...
post #98 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Hmmm.... better tell Gary about the BBQ I want to throw this spring...
I think Gary is going to get a winter BBQ excuse by the looks of it crackup.gif
Quote:
EXCELLENT that Dr. Mark is on board with the raw! So what - we have these vets that "get" raw - yet never MENTION it? What's up with THAT? A liability thing???? dontknow.gif Wait until the client discovers it on their own, THEN help them with it?
think.gif hummmmmm you know? You are right! Same here! I was never told by Dr. E either about raw...... even though he thinks that is what cats should be eating anyways headscratch.gif
Well...... at least I know now he will be on our side - I suppose it could be worst- there are soooooo many vets who are against it - at least we have vets who are Pro raw agree.gif
post #99 of 563
Thread Starter 
flail.gifcrackup.gif HEY I told Larry he can build his " dream man cave" if I could just have one tiny little - teeny miniscule thing..... He said - "yeah, what" and I said that it has something to do with making him LOTS of steak dinner's. Let's just leave him wondering what I mean headscratch.gifthink.gif I guess I could share the freezer with him....... rofl.gif30.gif
post #100 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Quote:
EXCELLENT that Dr. Mark is on board with the raw! So what - we have these vets that "get" raw - yet never MENTION it? What's up with THAT? A liability thing???? dontknow.gif Wait until the client discovers it on their own, THEN help them with it?
think.gif hummmmmm you know? You are right! Same here! I was never told by Dr. E either about raw...... even though he thinks that is what cats should be eating anyways headscratch.gif
Well...... at least I know now he will be on our side - I suppose it could be worst- there are soooooo many vets who are against it - at least we have vets who are Pro raw agree.gif

I was totally surprised that Dr. Mark was on board with raw feeding too. He has been my vet for almost twenty years - never mentioned raw feeding. BUT we have a lot to discuss about Pipsqueaks auto-immune issues. There is a concern with this issue and I am not on board at the moment with putting him back on raw. I (and Dr. Mark) need to do more research on the subject. What impact does a raw diet have on a cat with a compromised immune system and dealing with Pathogens/bacteria? Will Pip ever have enough digestive enzymes to handle raw meat?.... A serious concern of mine. Pipsqueak had such a violent (vomiting) reaction from the raw and this went on for twenty minutes on three different occasions. I feel very bad that I put him through that. He just cannot tolerate another episode such as that - EVER. I have to be sure that a raw diet is the best thing for Pipsqueak and right now I am not sure about that frown.gif... You can bet I will be picking Dr. Mark's brain on this one and of course, your brains too.... BUT it is SO nice to find a few vet's now that are open-minded and educating themselves on the benefits of feeding raw. I think Dr. Mark is blown away at how it has improved the quality of life for my sweet, adorable Wilbur (dog) who has many different health issues than Pipsqueak. heartpump.gifheartpump.gif
post #101 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

I was totally surprised that Dr. Mark was on board with raw feeding too. He has been my vet for almost twenty years - never mentioned raw feeding. BUT we have a lot to discuss about Pipsqueaks auto-immune issues. There is a concern with this issue and I am not on board at the moment with putting him back on raw. I (and Dr. Mark) need to do more research on the subject. What impact does a raw diet have on a cat with a compromised immune system and dealing with Pathogens/bacteria? Will Pip ever have enough digestive enzymes to handle raw meat?.... A serious concern of mine. Pipsqueak had such a violent (vomiting) reaction from the raw and this went on for twenty minutes on three different occasions. I feel very bad that I put him through that. He just cannot tolerate another episode such as that - EVER. I have to be sure that a raw diet is the best thing for Pipsqueak and right now I am not sure about that frown.gif... You can bet I will be picking Dr. Mark's brain on this one and of course, your brains too.... BUT it is SO nice to find a few vet's now that are open-minded and educating themselves on the benefits of feeding raw. I think Dr. Mark is blown away at how it has improved the quality of life for my sweet, adorable Wilbur (dog) who has many different health issues than Pipsqueak. heartpump.gifheartpump.gif

I will very much speak like AC now laughing02.giflaughing02.giflaughing02.gif
Immune compromised or not, Pipsqueak is still a cat - and he was not made to eat kibbles, that is a SURE thing you can bet on. You can bet that it is to him, much harder to digest than raw. As a cat, he was made to eat raw. Period.
Now.... as an immune compromised cat, you will have to do things differently with him, much like I am doing with Bugsy. Forget about just offering him meats - nope, he won't handle that. When I started Bugsy on raw, I started him with one tea spoon. And worked up tea spoon by tea spoon. Every transition was done VERY slowly. We are on day 38, he eats 3 meats, same brand. He was being introduced to a 4th one, but I stopped, as his system needs a break now.
With raw, like in any diet, there are still intolerances that you should be aware - that, however, doesn't indicate that raw isn't the best diet for him. For example: Hope will vomit violently projectile with any beef I give her. That includes Bison as well, as the organs are beef. I don't remember, but I think it also happened with Venison for the very same reasons. But she can eat all other proteins. This might be the case with Pips.
Bugsy has a very compromised immune system..... and raw is getting him stronger by the second. I started him on Nature's Variety for that reason - and slowly. very slowly. Now he can handle other brands just fine.
As you know, I was very much against raw, and very much afraid of it, for the same reasons - Bugsy's immune system. But today, the more I study, the more I read, and the more I watch him, the more I am convinced that this is the diet of a cat. I believe in inflammation, and diet being the root of the health of a being. And when you are feeding an inappropriate diet, to any individual, you will always have a sub-par health. And kibbles, and even a cooked diet, will only provide that. We know why already..... so I don't really to get into that here.
But yes - the bottom line is that he is absolutely capable of dealing with a raw diet..... But you need to do it at HIS pace..... You need to watch him carefully.... go slowly, use the foods he does well on it..... There are plenty of pathogen free foods in the market that can be used for that purpose if that is more in your comfort zone, or even to build his enzyme levels. There are also enzymes you can give to him to help him out. I have no doubt in my mind, that a slowly and carefully introduced diet to him is by far your best bet.... hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif
(I do understand your fears and concerns more than you can imagine though...... they do cross my mind too...... and I had them for a very long time..... I ma glad though, I worked beyond mine) hugs.gif
Edited by Carolina - 2/3/12 at 10:07pm
post #102 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

flail.gifcrackup.gif HEY I told Larry he can build his " dream man cave" if I could just have one tiny little - teeny miniscule thing..... He said - "yeah, what" and I said that it has something to do with making him LOTS of steak dinner's. Let's just leave him wondering what I mean headscratch.gifthink.gif I guess I could share the freezer with him....... rofl.gif30.gif

flail.gifflail.gifflail.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

What impact does a raw diet have on a cat with a compromised immune system and dealing with Pathogens/bacteria? Will Pip ever have enough digestive enzymes to handle raw meat?.... A serious concern of mine. Pipsqueak had such a violent (vomiting) reaction from the raw and this went on for twenty minutes on three different occasions. I feel very bad that I put him through that. He just cannot tolerate another episode such as that - EVER. I have to be sure that a raw diet is the best thing for Pipsqueak and right now I am not sure about that frown.gif... You can bet I will be picking Dr. Mark's brain on this one and of course, your brains too....

Since you asked this question last night, I've done some more investigating. smile.gif I'm actually thinking we may want to start a separate thread on this, because it's REALLY interesting, the relationship between the digestive system and the immune system. In fact - they're integrally linked, and immune system health appears to start in the digestive system. agree.gif Even though the information is all re: people, I'm quite sure the relationship is fundamentally the same. But everything points to the reduction of inflammation starting in the digestive tract - which would mean that long term a raw diet - like for Wilbur - would be best for Pip. I'm pretty sure that violent vomiting is due to lack of proper digestive enzymes to digest the food, and that is easily addressed by supplementing with digestive enzymes - and, as Carolina points out, starting REALLY small with raw, and going REALLY slow. agree.gif OBVIOUSLY chat with Dr. Mark about this, and of course you'll do your own research. biggrin.gif But I think the nutrition he'll get from raw meat and the lack of carbs and additives are what his body needs to support his health and immune system. heartpump.gif
post #103 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

flail.gifflail.gifflail.gif
Since you asked this question last night, I've done some more investigating. smile.gif I'm actually thinking we may want to start a separate thread on this, because it's REALLY interesting, the relationship between the digestive system and the immune system. In fact - they're integrally linked, and immune system health appears to start in the digestive system. agree.gif Even though the information is all re: people, I'm quite sure the relationship is fundamentally the same. But everything points to the reduction of inflammation starting in the digestive tract - which would mean that long term a raw diet - like for Wilbur - would be best for Pip. I'm pretty sure that violent vomiting is due to lack of proper digestive enzymes to digest the food, and that is easily addressed by supplementing with digestive enzymes - and, as Carolina points out, starting REALLY small with raw, and going REALLY slow. agree.gif OBVIOUSLY chat with Dr. Mark about this, and of course you'll do your own research. biggrin.gif But I think the nutrition he'll get from raw meat and the lack of carbs and additives are what his body needs to support his health and immune system. heartpump.gif

yeah.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif
And tons tons and tons of hugs for momma hugs.gif
post #104 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

I will very much speak like AC now laughing02.giflaughing02.giflaughing02.gif
Immune compromised or not, Pipsqueak is still a cat - and he was not made to eat kibbles, that is a SURE thing you can bet on. You can bet that it is to him, much harder to digest than raw. As a cat, he was made to eat raw. Period.
Now.... as an immune compromised cat, you will have to do things differently with him, much like I am doing with Bugsy. Forget about just offering him meats - nope, he won't handle that. When I started Bugsy on raw, I started him with one tea spoon. And worked up tea spoon by tea spoon. Every transition was done VERY slowly. We are on day 38, he eats 3 meats, same brand. He was being introduced to a 4th one, but I stopped, as his system needs a break now.
With raw, like in any diet, there are still intolerances that you should be aware - that, however, doesn't indicate that raw isn't the best diet for him. For example: Hope will vomit violently projectile with any beef I give her. That includes Bison as well, as the organs are beef. I don't remember, but I think it also happened with Venison for the very same reasons. But she can eat all other proteins. This might be the case with Pips.
Bugsy has a very compromised immune system..... and raw is getting him stronger by the second. I started him on Nature's Variety for that reason - and slowly. very slowly. Now he can handle other brands just fine.
As you know, I was very much against raw, and very much afraid of it, for the same reasons - Bugsy's immune system. But today, the more I study, the more I read, and the more I watch him, the more I am convinced that this is the diet of a cat. I believe in inflammation, and diet being the root of the health of a being. And when you are feeding an inappropriate diet, to any individual, you will always have a sub-par health. And kibbles, and even a cooked diet, will only provide that. We know why already..... so I don't really to get into that here.
But yes - the bottom line is that he is absolutely capable of dealing with a raw diet..... But you need to do it at HIS pace..... You need to watch him carefully.... go slowly, use the foods he does well on it..... There are plenty of pathogen free foods in the market that can be used for that purpose if that is more in your comfort zone, or even to build his enzyme levels. There are also enzymes you can give to him to help him out. I have no doubt in my mind, that a slowly and carefully introduced diet to him is by far your best bet.... hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif
(I do understand your fears and concerns more than you can imagine though...... they do cross my mind too...... and I had them for a very long time..... I ma glad though, I worked beyond mine) hugs.gif

Thank you for stepping for AC laughing02.gif I really appreciate all the support I am getting. hugs.gifheartpump.gif I am very much at that "worried/scared" point with Pipsqueak and raw - because of the severe vomiting episodes that went on for at least twenty minutes. Until everything was completely out of his system. NOW having said that - he is also dealing with a virus and that absolutely could have been a factor in the vomiting episodes. My plan now for him (thank you to...... You, Carolina, and Laurie for the links via PM, and to AC thanks.gif) is this:

1. Start him on Prozyme immediately - like today. Will pick some up.
2. Keep him on a probiotic as well - which he is already getting. The people probiotic that comes in a capsule.
3. Will wait for two weeks after the antibiotics are through to begin introductions.
4. Will begin with NV rabbit or NV chicken - and only about 1/4 tsp. to begin. And move along very, very slowly - little by little.

I also plan on doing much reading of the links that Laurie provided, talk with Dr. Mark so I will feel very confident going into this new transition for Pipsqueak and the betterment of his overall health. I want that for my Pipsqueak - I worry so much about him and his health troubles. He is so very sensitive and delicate inside - but such a tough little guy on the outside soldier.gifrub.gif
post #105 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Since you asked this question last night, I've done some more investigating. smile.gif I'm actually thinking we may want to start a separate thread on this, because it's REALLY interesting, the relationship between the digestive system and the immune system. In fact - they're integrally linked, and immune system health appears to start in the digestive system. agree.gif Even though the information is all re: people, I'm quite sure the relationship is fundamentally the same. But everything points to the reduction of inflammation starting in the digestive tract - which would mean that long term a raw diet - like for Wilbur - would be best for Pip. I'm pretty sure that violent vomiting is due to lack of proper digestive enzymes to digest the food, and that is easily addressed by supplementing with digestive enzymes - and, as Carolina points out, starting REALLY small with raw, and going REALLY slow. agree.gif OBVIOUSLY chat with Dr. Mark about this, and of course you'll do your own research. biggrin.gif But I think the nutrition he'll get from raw meat and the lack of carbs and additives are what his body needs to support his health and immune system. heartpump.gif


I think that would be very beneficial to start a new thread on how the immune system health does start in the digestive system and how (confusing as it sounds smile.gif) a raw diet will actually strengthen and support the overall health of the digestive tract. I am sure there are other people who would be very interested in learning about this as well.

I am sure you are right - Pipsqueak does not have the proper enzymes at the moment to digest the raw - plus he is very sensitive to already two proteins (Venison and Beef) and one brand (Nature's Logic - a big nono.gif for both Pipsqueak and Perkins). It is just SO easy to just say - OH FORGET IT..... and just stick with what has been working (even though it has not been working to better his health) and what feel's safer (even though kibbles are not safer or healthier). You know what I mean? It takes a bit of courage to plow forward to feed our darling, precious little furbabies their species-related natural diet. A LOT of courage. I just need the confidence that will go along with the courage - and doing the reading/research will help me get to that point. agree.gifhugs.gif and of course, YOUR SUPPORT heartpump.gif
post #106 of 563
Thread Starter 
NOW - after all of the above laughing02.gifcwm2.gif

Breakfast - WAS 50% NV Chicken and 50% GO wet food. clap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gif Everyone ate very well - except Perla. amidala.gif decided NOPE - so more Halo - and she dug in. BUT then she heard a noise upstairs thewife.gif...... She ran off and breakfast was over for her frown.gif. SO I rehydrated some S%C Lamb and she ate almost a whole pattie clap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gif YAY for the amidala.gif They all seem to love the freeze-dried S%C (dog) rehydrated - it works very well for me to get them eating at least something IF they refuse their frozen raw meat meals. SOOOOOOO a great start to our day over here biggthumpup.gif

Pipsqueak had 1/2 can of Wellness beef/chicken. Happy man - and is starting to feel much better cross.gifbiggrin.gif. HAPPY MOMMA TODAY jumping.gifsunshine.gifwoohoo.gif
post #107 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

I think that would be very beneficial to start a new thread on how the immune system health does start in the digestive system and how (confusing as it sounds smile.gif) a raw diet will actually strengthen and support the overall health of the digestive tract. I am sure there are other people who would be very interested in learning about this as well.
I am sure you are right - Pipsqueak does not have the proper enzymes at the moment to digest the raw - plus he is very sensitive to already two proteins (Venison and Beef) and one brand (Nature's Logic - a big nono.gif for both Pipsqueak and Perkins). It is just SO easy to just say - OH FORGET IT..... and just stick with what has been working (even though it has not been working to better his health) and what feel's safer (even though kibbles are not safer or healthier). You know what I mean? It takes a bit of courage to plow forward to feed our darling, precious little furbabies their species-related natural diet. A LOT of courage. I just need the confidence that will go along with the courage - and doing the reading/research will help me get to that point. agree.gifhugs.gif and of course, YOUR SUPPORT heartpump.gif

Lauren, I found that NV rabbit was a great start...... however, I like two things about Rad Cat and Nature's Menu for Bugsy:
1- the proteins are not mixed.
2- there is no bone. And this, for a cat who is immune compromised is an important issue because of this (some will disagree, but bare with me)
Quote:
http://www.ibdkitties.net/Aboutraw.htmlMadison is a more severe case. When he was switched to a raw diet in November of 2008 he improved from day one and
continued to do well until July of 2009. He began vomiting bile several times a week until it got to the point where it was
obvious he was having pain and the raw was no longer working well for him. After several tests and a thorough exam it was
confirmed that Madison has pancreatitis.

There’s no way to tell for sure what brought this on but our best guess after reviewing some other cases is that the larger
bone fragments in the brand of raw that Madison was eating didn’t break down properly and caused a backup of acid in his
GI tract, which then proceeded to aggravate his intestines and then his pancreas. Normally a healthy cat can easily digest
small bone and has no problem breaking it down for elimination. In fact, it’s important to have ground bone in raw food for
calcium and other vital nutrients you can’t get anywhere else. But for an IBD kitty that has a compromised organ system,
there is nothing normal about how their intestines are working. We also feel some of the herbs that are present in that
particular food and are known to upset an IBD kitty’s stomach and may have contributed to the whole issue.
Again, there’s
no way to tell for sure. As we all know, IBD is always a diagnosis of exclusions and these upsets are no different. But
unfortunately the initial diagnosis and treatment of the disease does not guarantee that the regimen won’t change. That
inflammatory response is tricky and can change on a dime.

After switching Madison to a more palpable raw food, he seemed to do well with it for a day or two but by then the damage
had already been done and he needed to be put on steroids for the inflammation.

This is an insert from IBDkitties.net. As you can see, more than one case was examined in getting to this conclusion..... And A food without herbs/vegetables or bone fragments might be easier to digest, and safer for these kitties, which is the case with Rad Cat, which uses bone meal, and Nature's Menu, who uses straight Calcium.

Every site I read also recommends the use of digestive enzymes..... Prozyme seems to be a great one.....

I think Nature's variety is a great short term start, but mainly for our confidence level..... To be honest, the one that worked for me was the rabbit..... I am not a fan of the vegetables in in it or the mixed proteins - don't know why they do that.... But it might be good for Pips, like it was great for Bugsy too....
Something to think about it agree.gif
post #108 of 563
Thread Starter 
Thank you Carolina hugs.gif Here is the one I just bought today at the store Probiotic and Enzyme. Started this tonight for my cats and Wilbur/Henry. http://www.animalessentials.com/#products:63

ARGH!!!!!!!!!! I need to VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am feeling very, very overwhelmed and please bear with me because this post is just me feeling really discouraged. I will get over it and plow on forward but I need to express my feeling's - I am just so anxious tonight and overwhelmed. Walden and Wendall are perfect raw eater's and make this so easy for me. Perla, Perkins and Presley are really giving me a hard time - and I am feeling very, very anxious tonight about this whole process. One thing that I have a hard time handling is when my babies do not eat. I am so scared that they are not eating enough because some meals they only take a few bites and that is it. They don't seem to like the NV Chicken or any raw meat for that matter sigh.gif... There is nothing that brings me more joy and happiness is seeing my babies eat a good meal - it is very fulfilling to me. I am trying so hard not to get anxious - but these three are just not getting it. No topping's worked tonight and I had all of this raw food to give to the ferals. This is just consuming me and I don't know if I can handle them NOT looking forward to eating. Those three jump on their counter but when I put the bowls down - they all are backing off now. Pipsqueak didn't even want to eat much tonight so I just gave in and gave him EVO dry because he has to eat. I am NOT giving up....... but I just want to be able to share with you all the ups and downs of this whole process and at times the toll it is taking on me personally. I am such a worrier when it comes to my babies not eating. Tomorrow is another day - and I will try again cross.gif I just need to vent tonight. YES - we have some good meals. but I want every meal to be a good meal and not have my cats stressing about what is coming for dinner - I want them to look forward to dinner. I am trying SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard to make this work. You should see the basket of "toppings" I carry with me downstairs to feed - laughing02.gif LOADED............ I am just getting overwhelmed, I like to have a plan and today has been the worst day - I just have toooooo many different items that I bring to the meals to hopefully get them to eat. the meat. It is just nuts......... crazy.gif WHY can't this be more simple dontknow.gifsigh.gif
Edited by Feralvr - 2/4/12 at 6:41pm
post #109 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Lauren, I found that NV rabbit was a great start...... however, I like two things about Rad Cat and Nature's Menu for Bugsy:
1- the proteins are not mixed.
2- there is no bone. And this, for a cat who is immune compromised is an important issue because of this (some will disagree, but bare with me)
Quote:
http://www.ibdkitties.net/Aboutraw.htmlMadison is a more severe case. When he was switched to a raw diet in November of 2008 he improved from day one and
continued to do well until July of 2009. He began vomiting bile several times a week until it got to the point where it was
obvious he was having pain and the raw was no longer working well for him. After several tests and a thorough exam it was
confirmed that Madison has pancreatitis.
There’s no way to tell for sure what brought this on but our best guess after reviewing some other cases is that the larger
bone fragments in the brand of raw that Madison was eating didn’t break down properly and caused a backup of acid in his
GI tract, which then proceeded to aggravate his intestines and then his pancreas. Normally a healthy cat can easily digest
small bone and has no problem breaking it down for elimination. In fact, it’s important to have ground bone in raw food for
calcium and other vital nutrients you can’t get anywhere else. But for an IBD kitty that has a compromised organ system,
there is nothing normal about how their intestines are working. We also feel some of the herbs that are present in that
particular food and are known to upset an IBD kitty’s stomach and may have contributed to the whole issue.
Again, there’s
no way to tell for sure. As we all know, IBD is always a diagnosis of exclusions and these upsets are no different. But
unfortunately the initial diagnosis and treatment of the disease does not guarantee that the regimen won’t change. That
inflammatory response is tricky and can change on a dime.
After switching Madison to a more palpable raw food, he seemed to do well with it for a day or two but by then the damage
had already been done and he needed to be put on steroids for the inflammation.
This is an insert from IBDkitties.net. As you can see, more than one case was examined in getting to this conclusion..... And A food without herbs/vegetables or bone fragments might be easier to digest, and safer for these kitties, which is the case with Rad Cat, which uses bone meal, and Nature's Menu, who uses straight Calcium.
Every site I read also recommends the use of digestive enzymes..... Prozyme seems to be a great one.....
I think Nature's variety is a great short term start, but mainly for our confidence level..... To be honest, the one that worked for me was the rabbit..... I am not a fan of the vegetables in in it or the mixed proteins - don't know why they do that.... But it might be good for Pips, like it was great for Bugsy too....
Something to think about it agree.gif

THANK YOU so much. Do you think my cats would like the Nature's Menu Rabbit??? I am so bothered that they just don't seem happy about their meals............ AND the NV rabbit will not be available till the end of the month. They did like that and that was the only raw so far that Pipsqueak could eat. No one seems to like the NV chicken ......
post #110 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

Thank you Carolina hugs.gif Here is the one I just bought today at the store Probiotic and Enzyme. Started this tonight for my cats and Wilbur/Henry. http://www.animalessentials.com/#products:63
ARGH!!!!!!!!!! I need to VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am feeling very, very overwhelmed and please bear with me because this post is just me feeling really discouraged. I will get over it and plow on forward but I need to express my feeling's - I am just so anxious tonight and overwhelmed. Walden and Wendall are perfect raw eater's and make this so easy for me. Perla, Perkins and Presley are really giving me a hard time - and I am feeling very, very anxious tonight about this whole process. One thing that I have a hard time handling is when my babies do not eat. I am so scared that they are not eating enough because some meals they only take a few bites and that is it. They don't seem to like the NV Chicken or any raw meat for that matter sigh.gif... There is nothing that brings me more joy and happiness is seeing my babies eat a good meal - it is very fulfilling to me. I am trying so hard not to get anxious - but these three are just not getting it. No topping's worked tonight and I had all of this raw food to give to the ferals. This is just consuming me and I don't know if I can handle them NOT looking forward to eating. Those three jump on their counter but when I put the bowls down - they all are backing off now. Pipsqueak didn't even want to eat much tonight so I just gave in and gave him EVO dry because he has to eat. I am NOT giving up....... but I just want to be able to share with you all the ups and downs of this whole process and at times the toll it is taking on me personally. I am such a worrier when it comes to my babies not eating. Tomorrow is another day - and I will try again cross.gif I just need to vent tonight. YES - we have some good meals. but I want every meal to be a good meal and not have my cats stressing about what is coming for dinner - I want them to look forward to dinner. I am trying SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard to make this work. You should see the basket of "toppings" I carry with me downstairs to feed - laughing02.gif LOADED............ I am just getting overwhelmed, I like to have a plan and today has been the worst day - I just have toooooo many different items that I bring to the meals to hopefully get them to eat. the meat. It is just nuts......... crazy.gif WHY can't this be more simple dontknow.gifsigh.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

THANK YOU so much. Do you think my cats would like the Nature's Menu Rabbit??? I am so bothered that they just don't seem happy about their meals............ AND the NV rabbit will not be available till the end of the month. They did like that and that was the only raw so far that Pipsqueak could eat. No one seems to like the NV chicken ......

Unfortunately they do not have rabbit frown.gif
I bought my rabbit from Hare Today - it does have bone though, and you have to mix in the supplement..... no biggie, in the end, I imagine it will be pretty similar to Feline's Pride. I will feed it in rotation - the majority of my meat will still be bone free, or at least 1/2 agree.gif
Do you have a Pets Supplies Plus around? Have you called them all? Are they all out of the rabbit?
frown.gif
I am so there with you on the worry about them not eating..... Today was a massively frustrating day for me too argh2.gif
Iliterally had to step away and lock myself in the bathroom to take some deep breaths..... I was this close to losing it. Bugsy is having a hard time eating because of the stuff I have been mixing in his food - pumpkin for example, and Hope is so addicted to Fortiflora, she is in for it,instead of for the meat doh3.gif
Bugsy HAS to eat - not only he NEEDS the food, fiber and calcium to get over the constipation/bleeding issue, but he is on the low end of his allowed food consumption - 2% of his weight..... less that that and it can become dangerous frown.gif
It is not good when he starts leaving food behind, like today..... frown.gif
Bug forward we move..... one day after the other..... Things will get better..... I for one, will cut off fortiflora tonight - cold turkey. If they don't eat, then that's that. They will go hungry for a couple of meals. But they have to get over this addiction, and start eating the meat for the meat. I am tired of having them eating that junk and having them and myself slaved to it agree.gif
Hope things get better on your end too hugs.gif
post #111 of 563
First, I doubt they'd like Nature's Menu. I don't remember, but I don't think they have rabbit anyway. For rabbit, I think there's basically Primal, NV, and Feline's Pride. Bravo only has the "basics" (not balanced). And my guys all loved the NV rabbit - but are not big fans of the Feline's Pride. THIS is like rabbit meat. The NV stuff was almost a kind of white - didn't have much of a smell, really. Primal may be more like that - and they use the HPP. Feline's pride smells like MEAT - and looks like meat. laughing02.gif

And the funny thing about that is that my guys aren't exactly enamored with the NV chicken either. They do seem to at least like the Vital Essentials chicken - which when at room temp and mushed up looks more like meat and is "juicy." So I don't get it. They'll eat the NV chicken... but like you say, they're not looking forward to it. ohwell.gif

Mine have now had both the S&C frozen lamb and the NV lamb, and they TOTALLY prefer the S&C frozen lamb. I know yours prefer the S&C dehydrated lamb, but I haven't bought any.

So I don't know what's up with the NV rabbit. Hopefully it'll become available soon, because I'd like it in the rotation. But it's looking like that'll probably end up being the only NV food IN rotation. dontknow.gif

************************************************************

As to feeling discouraged, hugs.gifalright.gifgrouphug2.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhearthrob.gif

I know what you mean. I thank my lucky stars that I've got FOUR that are doing so well. But even Ming Loy today turned her nose up at just Feline's Pride rabbit (when she'd finished the chicken/rabbit mix, I plopped 1/2 a teaspoon of just rabbit in her bowl). And that girl never turns food down. flail.gif

It IS discouraging when you fix and fuss and they're just not interested. Shelly constantly burying his food is definitely disheartening. agree.gif

I don't know if you saw my recent update. But basically I'm looking at it like this. These are my kids, and I don't want them eating at McDonald's anymore. And really, it's worse than that. I don't want them eating the stuff McDonald's throws away anymore. I love seeing them enjoy a meal - but I'll love seeing them enjoy a meal of real, human-grade, not-human-food-chain-garbage food even more. I totally prefer the taste of Cheese-Its to organic whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers from the health food store. But in a few months, I'll probably not be able to stand all that fake flavor in Cheese-Its, and I'll like the whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers. And if they're part of a total balance in my diet of carbs, proteins, fruits and veggies, I KNOW I'll feel better.

But getting back to the process... if you're not sure they're eating enough, and their not enjoying their meals is stressing you, then take a step back. When improving diet, some people will start shopping at the health food store and just stop eating processed food with additives. Others will incorporate healthier food choices, and slowly increase those healthy choices over time. agree.gif

Personally, I wish I had the discipline with my own diet that I'm exhibiting with my kitties' diet. anon.gif

I do think part of what's happening is that they know there's other food options available. They know there's canned they like, and they know there are kibbles. I put the kibble in the car - there's none in the house. It is simply not an option. If they want something between meals, I'll give them dehydrated something - sometimes rehydrated, sometimes not. I do also give a 3 oz can of Instinct something as a treat ocassionally. And none of them eats much of it. The only ones I offer that to are Flowerbelle, Lazlo, Sheldon, and Tuxie. I offer it several hours after a meal so there's no confusion - it's a treat. And there's ALWAYS some left. So even if they've had an off meal... I know they're not starving, or they'd be scarfing that down. dontknow.gif Of course... my cats seem to need less food than everyone else's cats. laughing02.gif

I'm sorry Lazlo, Shel, and Tuxie aren't loving the food (yet). They don't seem to be big meat-eating fans (yet). But what delights me is I KNOW they're feeling better. I can see in the litter box that they are now USING their food. They way they interact with each other and with us speaks volumes. They all need more attention via play. Shelly and Lazlo were wiggle-butt "attacking" each other, running around, tails up, playing with each other today! For me, that makes up for them looking up at me like - what - THIS again?

It's taking a lot more time to make the meals, to get them to eat the meals... I feel like my mom, when dinner was liver and broccoli. I hate liver, and hated broccoli as a kid. We had a rule - you don't leave the dinner table until you finish what's on your plate. At THOSE meals, I fell asleep at the dinner table. (I guess my dad would take me upstairs and put me to bed, because I always woke up in bed LOL). Right now, I think Sheldon would be falling asleep at the dinner table somewhat frequently. laughing02.gif And no, it's not fun. But when he'd wake up in bed the next morning wink.gif , it would be a delight to see him up early, because he's sleeping better, and running around with all that energy because his system isn't weighed down by all those carbs.

So... it's not kitty cat boot camp. laughing02.gif And if you're stressing about being the drill instructor, switch up your approach. heartpump.gif Altering the time-table to health & fitness doesn't mean you've changed the goal.

On the other hand... if your child doesn't like whole wheat spaghetti, do you stop trying to feed her the healthy choice because she'd rather eat spaghetti'Os? Maybe sometimes you give in, and feed her some Spaghetti'Os, and sometimes Spaghetti'Os with some whole-wheat pasta mixed in there. But at some points, you may reach that time when you have to let her get hungry before she'll eat the whole wheat spaghetti. That's when you face the difficult choice - when to give in, and when to "force" it. And no one but you can make the call on what's right for you and your babies. heartpump.gif

hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif
post #112 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

First, I doubt they'd like Nature's Menu. I don't remember, but I don't think they have rabbit anyway. For rabbit, I think there's basically Primal, NV, and Feline's Pride. Bravo only has the "basics" (not balanced). And my guys all loved the NV rabbit - but are not big fans of the Feline's Pride. THIS is like rabbit meat. The NV stuff was almost a kind of white - didn't have much of a smell, really. Primal may be more like that - and they use the HPP. Feline's pride smells like MEAT - and looks like meat. laughing02.gif
And the funny thing about that is that my guys aren't exactly enamored with the NV chicken either. They do seem to at least like the Vital Essentials chicken - which when at room temp and mushed up looks more like meat and is "juicy." So I don't get it. They'll eat the NV chicken... but like you say, they're not looking forward to it. ohwell.gif
Mine have now had both the S&C frozen lamb and the NV lamb, and they TOTALLY prefer the S&C frozen lamb. I know yours prefer the S&C dehydrated lamb, but I haven't bought any.
So I don't know what's up with the NV rabbit. Hopefully it'll become available soon, because I'd like it in the rotation. But it's looking like that'll probably end up being the only NV food IN rotation. dontknow.gif
************************************************************
As to feeling discouraged, hugs.gifalright.gifgrouphug2.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhearthrob.gif
I know what you mean. I thank my lucky stars that I've got FOUR that are doing so well. But even Ming Loy today turned her nose up at just Feline's Pride rabbit (when she'd finished the chicken/rabbit mix, I plopped 1/2 a teaspoon of just rabbit in her bowl). And that girl never turns food down. flail.gif
It IS discouraging when you fix and fuss and they're just not interested. Shelly constantly burying his food is definitely disheartening. agree.gif
I don't know if you saw my recent update. But basically I'm looking at it like this. These are my kids, and I don't want them eating at McDonald's anymore. And really, it's worse than that. I don't want them eating the stuff McDonald's throws away anymore. I love seeing them enjoy a meal - but I'll love seeing them enjoy a meal of real, human-grade, not-human-food-chain-garbage food even more. I totally prefer the taste of Cheese-Its to organic whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers from the health food store. But in a few months, I'll probably not be able to stand all that fake flavor in Cheese-Its, and I'll like the whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers. And if they're part of a total balance in my diet of carbs, proteins, fruits and veggies, I KNOW I'll feel better.
But getting back to the process... if you're not sure they're eating enough, and their not enjoying their meals is stressing you, then take a step back. When improving diet, some people will start shopping at the health food store and just stop eating processed food with additives. Others will incorporate healthier food choices, and slowly increase those healthy choices over time. agree.gif
Personally, I wish I had the discipline with my own diet that I'm exhibiting with my kitties' diet. anon.gif
I do think part of what's happening is that they know there's other food options available. They know there's canned they like, and they know there are kibbles. I put the kibble in the car - there's none in the house. It is simply not an option. If they want something between meals, I'll give them dehydrated something - sometimes rehydrated, sometimes not. I do also give a 3 oz can of Instinct something as a treat ocassionally. And none of them eats much of it. The only ones I offer that to are Flowerbelle, Lazlo, Sheldon, and Tuxie. I offer it several hours after a meal so there's no confusion - it's a treat. And there's ALWAYS some left. So even if they've had an off meal... I know they're not starving, or they'd be scarfing that down. dontknow.gif Of course... my cats seem to need less food than everyone else's cats. laughing02.gif
I'm sorry Lazlo, Shel, and Tuxie aren't loving the food (yet). They don't seem to be big meat-eating fans (yet). But what delights me is I KNOW they're feeling better. I can see in the litter box that they are now USING their food. They way they interact with each other and with us speaks volumes. They all need more attention via play. Shelly and Lazlo were wiggle-butt "attacking" each other, running around, tails up, playing with each other today! For me, that makes up for them looking up at me like - what - THIS again?
It's taking a lot more time to make the meals, to get them to eat the meals... I feel like my mom, when dinner was liver and broccoli. I hate liver, and hated broccoli as a kid. We had a rule - you don't leave the dinner table until you finish what's on your plate. At THOSE meals, I fell asleep at the dinner table. (I guess my dad would take me upstairs and put me to bed, because I always woke up in bed LOL). Right now, I think Sheldon would be falling asleep at the dinner table somewhat frequently. laughing02.gif And no, it's not fun. But when he'd wake up in bed the next morning wink.gif , it would be a delight to see him up early, because he's sleeping better, and running around with all that energy because his system isn't weighed down by all those carbs.
So... it's not kitty cat boot camp. laughing02.gif And if you're stressing about being the drill instructor, switch up your approach. heartpump.gif Altering the time-table to health & fitness doesn't mean you've changed the goal.
On the other hand... if your child doesn't like whole wheat spaghetti, do you stop trying to feed her the healthy choice because she'd rather eat spaghetti'Os? Maybe sometimes you give in, and feed her some Spaghetti'Os, and sometimes Spaghetti'Os with some whole-wheat pasta mixed in there. But at some points, you may reach that time when you have to let her get hungry before she'll eat the whole wheat spaghetti. That's when you face the difficult choice - when to give in, and when to "force" it. And no one but you can make the call on what's right for you and your babies. heartpump.gif
hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif

Great post Laurie hugs.gif
Curious.... why do you say you doubt they will like Nature's Menu? Is it because it is all meat? No veggies? Meat meat meat, smells and feels like meat kind of deal? dontknow.gif
post #113 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Unfortunately they do not have rabbit frown.gif
I bought my rabbit from Hare Today - it does have bone though, and you have to mix in the supplement..... no biggie, in the end, I imagine it will be pretty similar to Feline's Pride. I will feed it in rotation - the majority of my meat will still be bone free, or at least 1/2 agree.gif
Do you have a Pets Supplies Plus around? Have you called them all? Are they all out of the rabbit?
frown.gif
I am so there with you on the worry about them not eating..... Today was a massively frustrating day for me too argh2.gif
Iliterally had to step away and lock myself in the bathroom to take some deep breaths..... I was this close to losing it. Bugsy is having a hard time eating because of the stuff I have been mixing in his food - pumpkin for example, and Hope is so addicted to Fortiflora, she is in for it,instead of for the meat doh3.gif
Bugsy HAS to eat - not only he NEEDS the food, fiber and calcium to get over the constipation/bleeding issue, but he is on the low end of his allowed food consumption - 2% of his weight..... less that that and it can become dangerous frown.gif
It is not good when he starts leaving food behind, like today..... frown.gif
Bug forward we move..... one day after the other..... Things will get better..... I for one, will cut off fortiflora tonight - cold turkey. If they don't eat, then that's that. They will go hungry for a couple of meals. But they have to get over this addiction, and start eating the meat for the meat. I am tired of having them eating that junk and having them and myself slaved to it agree.gif
Hope things get better on your end too hugs.gif

Thank you !! hugs.gif I know this is a difficult time for all of us right now as we are going through the same thing and the same exact road blocks. It does help to let off some steam over it though sweat.gif..... I feel ready to face whatever tomorrow brings and just keep trying to get my babies convinced that this IS the only food you will be offered. I am trying and I actually do think they are trying too...... TRYING MY LAST NERVE.....THAT IS! flail.gif

I do have a Pets Supply Plus but it is about an hour away. No one has any NV Rabbit right now. Apparently there was a strike of some sort in the plant in France...dontknow.gif That is what one supplier told me. Who knows. But I will be trying the Primal rabbit. Will pick some up this week. It is pricey though - Primal rabbit. I also DO want to try the Nature's Menu - the chicken. Once I know they are doing really well raw all together - then I will add some other brands that don't use the HPP process - Nature's Menu, Rad Cat and Feline's Pride agree.gif

I really hope tomorrow is better for us ! Sweet Raw Dreams cloud9.giflaughing02.gif
Edited by Feralvr - 2/5/12 at 8:45am
post #114 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

First, I doubt they'd like Nature's Menu. I don't remember, but I don't think they have rabbit anyway. For rabbit, I think there's basically Primal, NV, and Feline's Pride. Bravo only has the "basics" (not balanced). And my guys all loved the NV rabbit - but are not big fans of the Feline's Pride. THIS is like rabbit meat. The NV stuff was almost a kind of white - didn't have much of a smell, really. Primal may be more like that - and they use the HPP. Feline's pride smells like MEAT - and looks like meat. laughing02.gif
And the funny thing about that is that my guys aren't exactly enamored with the NV chicken either. They do seem to at least like the Vital Essentials chicken - which when at room temp and mushed up looks more like meat and is "juicy." So I don't get it. They'll eat the NV chicken... but like you say, they're not looking forward to it. ohwell.gif
Mine have now had both the S&C frozen lamb and the NV lamb, and they TOTALLY prefer the S&C frozen lamb. I know yours prefer the S&C dehydrated lamb, but I haven't bought any.
So I don't know what's up with the NV rabbit. Hopefully it'll become available soon, because I'd like it in the rotation. But it's looking like that'll probably end up being the only NV food IN rotation. dontknow.gif
************************************************************
As to feeling discouraged, hugs.gifalright.gifgrouphug2.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhearthrob.gif
I know what you mean. I thank my lucky stars that I've got FOUR that are doing so well. But even Ming Loy today turned her nose up at just Feline's Pride rabbit (when she'd finished the chicken/rabbit mix, I plopped 1/2 a teaspoon of just rabbit in her bowl). And that girl never turns food down. flail.gif
It IS discouraging when you fix and fuss and they're just not interested. Shelly constantly burying his food is definitely disheartening. agree.gif
I don't know if you saw my recent update. But basically I'm looking at it like this. These are my kids, and I don't want them eating at McDonald's anymore. And really, it's worse than that. I don't want them eating the stuff McDonald's throws away anymore. I love seeing them enjoy a meal - but I'll love seeing them enjoy a meal of real, human-grade, not-human-food-chain-garbage food even more. I totally prefer the taste of Cheese-Its to organic whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers from the health food store. But in a few months, I'll probably not be able to stand all that fake flavor in Cheese-Its, and I'll like the whole wheat-with-real-cheddar cheese crackers. And if they're part of a total balance in my diet of carbs, proteins, fruits and veggies, I KNOW I'll feel better.
But getting back to the process... if you're not sure they're eating enough, and their not enjoying their meals is stressing you, then take a step back. When improving diet, some people will start shopping at the health food store and just stop eating processed food with additives. Others will incorporate healthier food choices, and slowly increase those healthy choices over time. agree.gif
Personally, I wish I had the discipline with my own diet that I'm exhibiting with my kitties' diet. anon.gif
I do think part of what's happening is that they know there's other food options available. They know there's canned they like, and they know there are kibbles. I put the kibble in the car - there's none in the house. It is simply not an option. If they want something between meals, I'll give them dehydrated something - sometimes rehydrated, sometimes not. I do also give a 3 oz can of Instinct something as a treat ocassionally. And none of them eats much of it. The only ones I offer that to are
, Lazlo, Sheldon, and Tuxie. I offer it several hours after a meal so there's no confusion - it's a treat. And there's ALWAYS some left. So even if they've had an off meal... I know they're not starving, or they'd be scarfing that down. dontknow.gif Of course... my cats seem to need less food than everyone else's cats. laughing02.gif
I'm sorry Lazlo, Shel, and Tuxie aren't loving the food (yet). They don't seem to be big meat-eating fans (yet). But what delights me is I KNOW they're feeling better. I can see in the litter box that they are now USING their food. They way they interact with each other and with us speaks volumes. They all need more attention via play. Shelly and Lazlo were wiggle-butt "attacking" each other, running around, tails up, playing with each other today! For me, that makes up for them looking up at melike - what - THIS again?
It's taking a lot more time to make the meals, to get them to eat the meals... I feel like my mom, when dinner was liver and broccoli. I hate liver, and hated broccoli as a kid. We had a rule - you don't leave the dinner table until you finish what's on your plate. At THOSE meals, I fell asleep at the dinner tab (I guess my dad would take me upstairs and put me to bed, because I always woke up in bed LOL).Right now, I think Sheldon would be falling asleep at the dinner table somewhat frequently. laughing02.gif And no, it's not fun. But when he'd wake up in bed the next morning wink.gif , it would be a delight to see him up early, because he's sleeping better, and running around with all that energy because his system isn't weighed down by all those carbs.
So... it's not kitty cat boot camp. laughing02.gif And if you're stressing about being the drill instructor, switch up your approach. heartpump.gif Altering the time-table to health & fitness doesn't mean you've changed the goal.
On the other hand... if your child doesn't like whole wheat spaghetti, do you stop trying to feed her the healthy choice because she'd rather eat spaghetti'Os? Maybe sometimes you give in, and feed her some Spaghetti'Os, and sometimes Spaghetti'Os with some whole-wheat pasta mixed in there. But at some points, you may reach that time when you have to let her get hungry before she'll eat the wwheat spaghetti. That's when you face the difficult choice - when to give in, and when to "force" it. And no one but you can make the call on what's right for you and your babies. heartpump.gif
hugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gifhugs.gif

WELL first and foremost...... NO Surprise here... BUT I LOVE Cheese-It's too thud.gif Just addicted to them...... And when I was a kid, my mother also made LIVER with Broccoli or worse with LIMA BEANS barf.gif... Would have to sit at the table for hours too. It never worked, I hated liver and to this day barf.gif at looking at it laughing02.gif OH Laurie, You must try Cheese-Its with a PB&J sandwich rofl.gif

Thank you for the wonderful post. Really got me back on track and ready for tomorrow. Am I concerned? sure..... But I do agree with you in that this is a give and take right now and in the process slowly winning over the cat's to accepting what should be so natural for them to eat....Raw Goodness! It will be a day of celebration when that time comes and it will come biggthumpup.gif And hopefully sooner than later and without too much more emotional abuse on us momma's rofl.gif

p.s. I need to make better choices in my diet too anon.gif I should start to set a good example laughing02.gifsunshine.gif
post #115 of 563
Thread Starter 
HAPPY MOMMA REPORT!!!!!!!!!!! 26.gif OK - I realized something - after the late meal last night - that did not go well frown.gif. My cats will not starve themselves nono.gif NO they won't. Everyone was hungry this morning - and everyone LOVED the NV Chicken - we are at 75% today clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif - No topping's for Walden and Wendall of course. No toppping's for Perkin's - only a bit of Fortlflora for Perla and Presley. Mixed the NV Chicken with a little bit of Weruva Chicken/Duck. Perla wanted MORE food after her meal so I gave her some S&C freeze-dried rehydrated chicken and a few Halo treats. I am going down to three meals a day now - AM, PM and before bedtime. I realized that if my cats are more hungry for the next meal - they will eat. SO I am going to try this new schedule. Will see how it goes. cross.gif

They are all getting the Animal Essentials Probiotic and Enzyme supplement. It mixes in very easily and they don't seem to notice it. I give 1/8 tsp. for the AM and PM meal. It says give it once daily but the guy at the natural store told me to give it every meal. agree.gif I guess that makes sense that it would be needed for each meal, right?

This week I will be introducing the Primal Turkey!!!! I am really, really hoping that the cats LOVE it - they do like turkey smile.gif. We will see biggrin.gifclap.gif
post #116 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Great post Laurie hugs.gif
Curious.... why do you say you doubt they will like Nature's Menu? Is it because it is all meat? No veggies? Meat meat meat, smells and feels like meat kind of deal? dontknow.gif

Yep. agree.gif I say that because Lauren's trouble kitties and my trouble kitties seem to have the same problem - they don't actually like meat yet. laughing02.gif
post #117 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

WELL first and foremost...... NO Surprise here... BUT I LOVE Cheese-It's too thud.gif Just addicted to them...... And when I was a kid, my mother also made LIVER with Broccoli or worse with LIMA BEANS barf.gif... Would have to sit at the table for hours too. It never worked, I hated liver and to this day barf.gif at looking at it laughing02.gif OH Laurie, You must try Cheese-Its with a PB&J sandwich rofl.gif
Thank you for the wonderful post. Really got me back on track and ready for tomorrow. Am I concerned? sure..... But I do agree with you in that this is a give and take right now and in the process slowly winning over the cat's to accepting what should be so natural for them to eat....Raw Goodness! It will be a day of celebration when that time comes and it will come biggthumpup.gif And hopefully sooner than later and without too much more emotional abuse on us momma's rofl.gif
p.s. I need to make better choices in my diet too anon.gif I should start to set a good example laughing02.gifsunshine.gif

I was a weird kid. I liked Lima beans. anon.gif
post #118 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

HAPPY MOMMA REPORT!!!!!!!!!!!

woohoo.gifwoohoo.gifwoohoo.gifclap.gifclap.gifclap.gif Aw that is just GREAT news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post

This week I will be introducing the Primal Turkey!!!! I am really, really hoping that the cats LOVE it - they do like turkey smile.gif. We will see biggrin.gifclap.gif

Oh, I'm excited. Carolina's kitties seem to love turkey. And Primal, being HPP and not 100% meat may be like the NV our kitties seem to prefer to the real juicy stuff. laughing02.gif I REALLY hope they like it - it would be SO nice to have another reliable protein for them. laughing02.gif

vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #119 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

I was a weird kid. I liked Lima beans. anon.gif

laughing02.gifbarf.gif WELL we can't like everything the same biggrin.gif AND you lima beans were probably soaked in that Kerry Irish butter cwm2.gif
post #120 of 563
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Yep. agree.gif I say that because Lauren's trouble kitties and my trouble kitties seem to have the same problem - they don't actually like meat yet. laughing02.gif

Yeah frown.gif... my cat's don't know YET that they are carnivores. The really red, juicy meat is too much for them barf.gifgreenbarf.gif That is why I am just sticking to the HPP brands at least until such time I am sure their digestive enzymes are completely adjusted and they are eating raw well for me cross.gif..
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