A New "Raw"some Beginning... (yup - another one LOL) - Page 20

Go Perla! Aw, that's great!!!!

Just curious...did your fussies (other than Pipsqueak) ever like any other rabbit?  I've only ever bought one kind (Nature's Logic), and none of mine will get near it, even when I mix it with pork, so I'm wondering if I should try another brand, or if I should just try other proteins. 

 

SO glad they like this one!  And your little , Perla!  Making Momma happy! 

Sally, is there a store around you that sells Nature's Variety? You might want to try the NV rabbit, just to see.

This is the first I ahve heard regarding raw food...wow...so it not only works but is beneficial?  I need to research some more I guess.

Oh yes Arlo
Several of us feed raw - I have no doubt in my mind it saved my Bugy's life - no joke! As obligate carnivores..... our babies should be eating meat, and that is what a raw diet provides - meat, free of all the other junk.
It is affordable and great for them - oh, and for dogs too! Lauren has had wonderful success with her boy who was on bad shape before raw and is doing so much better now
Check it out!

I presented this idea to my wife last night...this is going to be a hard sell.  Any ideas where I can get some information online in order to build a case?

There are commercial raw products that are as easy and as tidy as canned food. Some are even pasteurized if she's scared of germs. And they cost about the same as a high-quality canned food. Not a hard sell at all . Although it depends on your kitties. . .how old are they and what are they eating now?

Cher is between 5 and 7...closer to 7 according to vet....and now she eats iams for old cats.

Iams canned or Iams dry? It can be super difficult to get a kibble addict to recognize raw meat as food. If the cat eats a lot of canned the transition may be easier (although Carolina's Lucky went straight from kibble to raw because she didn't like canned!). There are a lot of tips in these threads on how to convince a kitty to eat raw, so just look around. If your wife is reluctant she may not be willing to put in the effort, though.

No matter what you do, remember that you CANNOT starve a cat into eating her food. If a cat goes too long without eating it can make her go into liver failure. So tricks are necessary for when they don't want to eat!

thank you for the advice about starving a cat into eating.  I never knew that before.  Good to know.  Apparently cats do not ahve the same glycogen stores we do.  Cher is on dry kibble btw.  We decided not to feed her wet food when we got her as she was used to dry kibble.

Wet food is much healthier for kitties. Kibble is very dehydrating. Even if you can't get her to eat raw, try to get her to eat some wet food if you can.

It's not so much about the glycogen stores. . .they don't die of low blood sugar. It's because their livers attempt to metabolize stored fat for energy and the fat gums up the liver (scientific, I know ). It's called hepatic lipidosis if you want to look it up. The fatter a cat is, the less time they can go without eating without getting liver damage.

i am familiar with haptic lipidosis.  It is a rapidly growing field of study in humans now secondary to the explosion of obesity.  In humans it is studied in patients with NAFLD.  Funny how people and cats have interesting unique things in common and then other things we are vastly different on.  So you are a "Sciency" person?  That would be awesome because I know I am.  I love the concept of research and want to eventually research human hormones.

Arlo, what's her issue with raw food for the kitties? Just the idea of it? Fear of pathogens?

What kind of information for your argument will help? Getting her comfortable with what it means that cats are carnivores? Appealing to the long term health of kitty - because cats are obligate carnivores? Stuff that appeals to her intellect, or stuff that appeals to her sense of caring of what's best for Cher's long term health? Or would completely scaring her with what you're actually feeding a cat when you feed commercial pet food work better? (Make sure YOU want to know! I used to argue against raw feeding, because feral cats are not out there hunting chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cows! BUT when I started researching what goes into cat food, I started feeling an OVERWHELMING sense of guilt about what I was feeding my cats, and made the switch to raw. And the difference truly is amazing. And I was feeding them a high quality wet food diet).

This article uses citations when discussing the physiology of a cat's digestive system (which is designed to digest raw meat): http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/raw-feeding-your-house-cat-whats-all-the-fuss-about/

Here's more info on what it means that cats are obligate carnivores:

http://rawfedcats.org/carnivores.htm
http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/your-cats-nutritional-needs-the-basics

This article addresses the fear of pathogens: http://catcentric.org/care-and-health/salmonella-e-coli-and-listeria-oh-my/

The bottom line is that cats simply aren't designed to eat anything other than meat, bones and organs. They lack amylase, the enzyme that begins the breakdown of carbohydrates in the saliva in our mouths.

As Dr. Pierson (http://www.catinfo.org) says,

That link provides a LONG discussion of diet and health issues.

Here is another diet-is-related-to-health article, written by a vet: http://feline-nutrition.org/health/a-vets-view-andrea-tasi-vmd

Cats cannot convert beta carotene into Vitamin A. Whenever you see carrots in a cat food, it is a filler. Whenever you see beta carotene in a food, it is for color.

Cats cannot utilize the plant-based omega 3 ALA (alpha-linolenic acid).

Cats cannot convert the essential fatty acid LA (linoleic acid) into the LC-polyunsaturated fatty acids (as dogs and humans can). LA must be provided in the diet in the form of meat. Cats lack the digestive enzyme necessary to synthesize AA (arachidonic acid) - it must be provided in the form of meat.

DHA is critical for cats, but they cannot synthesize it from LNA (the way people and dogs do) for the same reasons they cannot convert LA to LC-PUFAs.

(For discussion with references, scroll down to the section "PUFA for Pussy Cats." http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml).



And if you want to learn about what's in the food you feed your cat if you buy commercial canned or kibble food, here's a thread discussing it: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food

If I had to pick one resource from that thread discussing what's in the food we feed, it would be this one: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html "Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes."

Oh Perla! I'm sorry, Lauren, but the image conjured up with Perla flicking food on the wall just cracks me up!

INTERESTING on Pip not liking the HT chicken. They're so fresh, I wonder what the issue is. Actually, one thing just popped to mind. The HT meats are ground whole animals. Maybe it's the mix of organs in there?

Well, I really hope he at least likes the turkey!

I am still deciphering you post LDG...lots of questions there.  I think our biggest hurdle for my wife to overcome is that she almost lost our Shih-tzu to bladder crystals, and the operating doctor told her in order to maintain the health of the animal it hust adhere to an expensive script diet.  She transfers that info over to the cat and thinks in her head the script food is best but too costly, regular pet food is second best.  But under no circumstances is people food ever appripriate - in any shape or form.  The operation on Sashi cast nearly 3k I do believe so I am sure she is interested in avoiding that again.  If not that then I think she does what so many people do with their pets....think the pet is actually another human.  People fail to set boundaries with their dog because they are concerned they will hurt puppy's feelings and things of that nature, they put crazy sweaters on pets because they assume the pet is cold or warm when pets actually have supremely complex systems for maintaining body temp.   Well along those lines raw meat is dangerous...because it is dangerous for humans.  "Cats need a sweater in the snow like me and they need to be protected from salmonella as well just like me".  Because she knows the veterinarian as a doctor and not as a friend I think she see the vet as an infallible pillar of medical prowess whereas it is cute that I have studied medicine for nearly 8 years now but nothing else...just cute.  If I were to approach her with medical facts she would be hesitant to believe me because the vet says something different.  I will try to formulate an argument based on emotion and parallel facts such as big cats being obligate carnivores.  Thank you sooooo much for the articles and links.  I have started a new folder.

Ah, yes, crystals. Then you will definitely want to read the information at http://www.catinfo.org. The best way to avoid similar problems in cats (and dogs, in fact) is by feeding them species-appropriate diets. Meat, bones, and organs when properly balanced with calcium (in bones or supplemented), and phosphorus actually create the proper pH in the bladder, which avoids the problem of crystals. Feeding moist food (raw food) provides a lot of moisture in the diet, and keeping urine dilute also helps avoid the problems created by concentrated urine.

I think your best bet is going to be information FROM vets discussing the problem with the traditional approach to diet by MOST vets. Vets actually receive very little in the way of nutritional training at school, and the information they impart to us is information usually provided BY the pet food companies - which, I'm sure your wife would understand, is biased by their interest in profit-margins, not our pets' health.


http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/pmahaney/2012/may/top_10_topics_veterinarians_wish_pet_owners_understood_better#.T8ub0ZJh6LY

By the same vet: Are you Poisoning your companion animal with Pet Grade foods? http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/pmahaney/2012/mar/are_you_poisoning_your_companion_animal_with_pet_grade_foods#.T8ucU5Jh6LY



From one of the links above: http://feline-nutrition.org/health/a-vets-view-andrea-tasi-vmd

And ask away, that's what we're here for.

I had to go look it up, because I couldn't remember. NM isn't whole ground animals. It does include liver and heart - and the non-organic one has gizzards. So maybe he doesn't like the rest of the chicken.

I think I've finally learned the trick over here to get Callie to eat.  I need to feed her last.  I swear...she is as slow as molasses when she eats.  The boys had gone thru at least 2 oz each, and I squished their food to the bottom of their dishes to try to slow them down, and she was still licking at just .4 oz when they went zooming past her and caused her to stop eating, so I though "enough of this nonsense", and just decided I would wait until they were all settled down THEN try to feed her.  It worked (last night and this morning anyway ...AND with the help of some Fortiflora).  And I managed to get about 1 full oz in her!!  Obviously it's even more time consuming now than before, but that's ok as long as she'll eat . 

 

The things we do for our furkids

The art of kitty negotiations! Truly, an art of feline psychology!