Dry Food Recommendations (got 4 cats - details inside)

Heya,

I got 4 cats (yeah I know)

- 9 1/2 year old male (weight the least at 11 pounds I believe) Tabby

- 4 1/2 year old female (the fattest - 19 pounds... used to be 21) Tabby

- 2 Persians twins - at 1 year a piece - male and female

Normally for dry food I use the C/D Prescription Hills diet for bladder.  I use this one 'cause I heard that it helps against forming blader stones I think for males (since they are more susceptible to it)... it's NOT a cheap brand!  I pay $69 + 13% tax for a big bag

But recently someone (not sure how much of it is true) told me that his vet said, that particular brand is high in carbs and can help precipitate diabetes... is this true?

So at this point I'm thinking - what brand of dry food should I get?  My male cat shows no signs (as far as I can tell) or stones.. and I definitely don't want any of them to suffer with diabetes

Any recommendations are appreciated

When you get down to it, all dry foods have an awful lot of carbs. Do you feed them any canned food at all?

Only 4 cats?!?! Amateur! :lol3:

Well typically what I do is 1- dry food all day long available.  2- Each cat gets one can 5 oz (friskies, purina, fancy feast... I tried healthy like Weruva but they hate it... normally I get them shredded ones - at least it's socked in liquid), 3- treats one or twice a day (let them play fetch) and lastly, midday snack - more canned food.  I have the Drinkwell Platinum Pet Fountain for water

Not sure how good all this is.. they are total indoor cats

Just curious, have any of our cats ever had stones or even a UTI?  Is that why you started feeding them the C/D in the first place?  Don't you need a prescription to feed them that?  My Sven was on K/D, and I needed a prescription. 

BTW, there are some dry foods that are not too high in carbs, like Evo...I believe it is something like 50% protein and 11% carbs.  I know this because I was checking it out because I have an overweight cat and my Vet recommended a "catkins" diet, so I investigated many, many dry foods.  But Willowy is correct, most dry foods have carb contents in the mid to high 20s.  Unfortunately, when my old PC crashed, I lost all that info

It's good that you are feeding wet food too, and the water fountain certainly helps in adding even more moisture (as long as they're using it )

AT this point, I would say your female (the fattest) is the most "at risk" for diabetes, if she is truly overweight, but it appears she is losing weight, hopefully that is your plan, so that is good. 

Not sure any of my advice would help but I have one cat and she gets one good size bowl of friskies that usualy last anywhere from 2-3 days for me unless they cat has to have a specific diet like a perscription food I don;t buy the high end stuff but even friskies has gone up in price resently for less food. I have noticed that I have been paying more for less food they have gone to little pellet style food.

Originally Posted by mrsgreenjeens


Just curious, have any of our cats ever had stones or even a UTI?  Is that why you started feeding them the C/D in the first place?  Don't you need a prescription to feed them that?  My Sven was on K/D, and I needed a prescription. 

BTW, there are some dry foods that are not too high in carbs, like Evo...I believe it is something like 50% protein and 11% carbs.  I know this because I was checking it out because I have an overweight cat and my Vet recommended a "catkins" diet, so I investigated many, many dry foods.  But Willowy is correct, most dry foods have carb contents in the mid to high 20s.  Unfortunately, when my old PC crashed, I lost all that info

It's good that you are feeding wet food too, and the water fountain certainly helps in adding even more moisture (as long as they're using it

)

AT this point, I would say your female (the fattest) is the most "at risk" for diabetes, if she is truly overweight, but it appears she is losing weight, hopefully that is your plan, so that is good. 

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Hi, Mystearica! Welcome to TCS!

I agree with Willowy and Sally - kibble comes with carbs (and causes a host of health issues). Cats have no dietary need for carbs and don't actually have the ability to properly digest them; which is where part of the problem comes in - it stresses their bodies to *have* to process them.

Why not increase the canned foods and remove the kibble altogether? Your kitties will lose weight (those that need to!) and you'll reduce the chances of encountering diabetes, urinary tract issues and more (see CatInfo.org and Feline-Nutrition.org).

Best regards!

AC

P.S. You have only four?!

Everyone thanks and thanks for the links
 

Auntie Crazy said:

Hi, Mystearica! Welcome to TCS!

I agree with Willowy and Sally - kibble comes with carbs (and causes a host of health issues). Cats have no dietary need for carbs and don't actually have the ability to properly digest them; which is where part of the problem comes in - it stresses their bodies to *have* to process them.

Why not increase the canned foods and remove the kibble altogether? Your kitties will lose weight (those that need to!) and you'll reduce the chances of encountering diabetes, urinary tract issues and more (see CatInfo.org and Feline-Nutrition.org).

Best regards!

AC

P.S. You have only four?!

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Okay now I feel VERY stupid - to answer your questions

- When I first took my first cat for check at the vet (the male senior now)... we were worried 'cause he was always skinny.  He's a long big tammy with a very muscular body so we gave him worms shots and the vet recommended the C/D diet in case of bladders... we've been using it since then - so about 9 years.  In Canada you don't need a prescription - it's at very vet's office

- I gave them dry food 'cause I thought it was healthier <....<  Less calories and all... dunno they must've reminded me of burger or something.  They smell wonder and friskies/whiskas/fancy feast didn't strike me as "health" oriented.  Always thought they were more snack/reward oriented... so I was wrong oO?

- Assuming I switch to cans only - that's 3 cans per day x 4 cats = 12 cans minimum ... but somehow that feels like starving them oO?  What's the typical adult cat need?  I'll have to find another source to get them from or buy them in bulk

- So... another thing I feel stupid with is I didn't know cats have no use to carbs.  I know they needed protein but didn't think they needed it as much because I always associate high protein diet with kidney problems (thinking more human)... guess I need to go read up on those sites you gave me

EDITING:

The catinfo page states

[quotes]The average cat should eat 4-6 ounces of canned food per day split between 3-4 meals/day (or just free-fed if they are not overweight) but this is just a general guideline.[/quotes]

That's pretty much 1 can oO?  Really 1 can divided by 4 times oO?  Isn't that very little?  I can post pictures of them.

I feed mostly raw but on canned my cat eats 5-6 oz a day and she is 10 pounds, that seems to be about the norm.  With multiple cats I would be looking into brands that sell 12-13 oz cans, usually they are better priced and will last longer.  The wet food you are feeding isn't great quality but it is way better than the dry Hills and moisture is very important for kitty health. 

Mystearica, please don't feel stupid.  At least you are asking questions.  None of us know things until we start researching .   I can't believe what I am still learning every day about cat nutrition!  And depending on the can size, how much your cat weighs  and how good the brand is (meaning just how much protein is in the can I think), would depend on how much you would need to feed your cat.  They don't need as much as you probably think!

Mystearica said:

I didn't know cats have no use to carbs.

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That may probably be discussed. There was a long thread here not so long ago, where some knowleable cat people maintained the DO need some carbs. So even some "bread-seeds" were necessary.

I had not read this lenghy thread myself, so I still dont know why they shold have some carbs. But I did saw some names of good experts and the first excerpt of their posts...

Anyway, IF they need some carbs as "bread seeds" (sorry for my english) it is just somewhat. A very few procent.  NOT a big part of the contains.  This is driving forward a tendency for both fats = obese, and diabetes.  Rice is btw better than wheat and the like.

EDIT:  The word I was seeing was GRAIN = "bread seed"...  

So whatever you do, high percentages of animal protein and fat.  And more fat than you would think. These 9-10% as in many kibbles are is too low.

The most easy and probably best is wet food. It is easier to make decent wet food than decent dry food. 

But as you are anxious for bladder stone....  a danger with dry food is they may get too little water.

Wet food is better here, as it does contains plenty of water.

So my advice to you is not to use some prescribed veterinary food unless you really must.

But do safeguard they do drink much.

A water fountain is usually fine here.  Many cats who are reluctant to drink water, do happily drink frow water fountain. I know even a case of a cat whom they got to forcefeed water...She had no appetite at all for water, poor girl, mother, grandmoter etc.  But when they bough a water fountain, she drank voluntarily from w f.

If you by any reason dont can have w f, make sure they have several places to drink from. Fresh water AND stale water - some cats prefer to drink stale water.

Good luck!

I have varying ages with my 5 indoor cats too.  We use Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance dry for grazing and meals are Natual Balance Ultra Premium Wet food.  My cats LOVE it.  I give them raw treats as a supplement to their diet because I do feel that cats LOVE and need raw in their diets.  I am not ready to go full on raw just yet...but who knows...maybe someday.    We have had good success with Natural Balance and I am satisfied with the quality of the food.

Thanks for the information!!  I do have a water fountain at home and the reservoir depletes at a pretty good rate.  So I know someone (or all I HOPE) are drinking.  My oldest cat strangly spends a lot of time in my bathtub oO... he's the senior, long, skinny cat with giant whiskers.  I don't usually watch my cats drink so not sure how much he drinks - with his wet food I normally give him the dish with the largest content of liquid in it... so I hope his source of water isn't from the tub.. He's sooo cute - whenever I catch him in my bathtub he meows up a storm of excuses with that wettish head of his
 

BlueRexBear said:

I have varying ages with my 5 indoor cats too.  We use Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance dry for grazing and meals are Natual Balance Ultra Premium Wet food.  My cats LOVE it.  I give them raw treats as a supplement to their diet because I do feel that cats LOVE and need raw in their diets.  I am not ready to go full on raw just yet...but who knows...maybe someday.    We have had good success with Natural Balance and I am satisfied with the quality of the food.

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^The Natural Balance dry food is a lot cheaper than the Prescription Hills... canned food not so much but still manageable.  Do you buy these in store or online - can you recommend me a vendor that sells these 'cause the largest grocery stores don't seem to carry those.

Speaking of canned food - can you guys recommend some other brands so I can look into it and their availability.  Appreciate any help!

This morning I realized that my female cat (4 1/2) seriously needs to lose weight - forget 18 pounds - she's definitely over that and the younger female is closely to follow - that cat (1 year old) will eat ANYTHING even if she had a full can.  Maybe I'll try some raw food with her - the other cats are much more picky.

Thanks

EDITING: Sorry for the double post - at work it kept saying "trying to send" but it never went though so I tried posting again

My angel kitties also eat Natural Balance Ultra and like BlueRexBear enjoy the taste, and they are all very healthy and have never had any health problems.  I’ve raised them all on this very nutritional cat food and recommend it to all my friends with cats.  I am also impressed by the quality – and their program on the NB website where you can check that every bag has been tested free of contaminants.  I trust Natural Balance and my healthy babies are proof of the quality – they love their Platefulls indoor pouches too. 

BCCats22 said:

My angel kitties also eat Natural Balance Ultra and like BlueRexBear enjoy the taste, and they are all very healthy and have never had any health problems.  I’ve raised them all on this very nutritional cat food and recommend it to all my friends with cats.  I am also impressed by the quality – and their program on the NB website where you can check that every bag has been tested free of contaminants.  I trust Natural Balance and my healthy babies are proof of the quality – they love their Platefulls indoor pouches too. 

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Heya,

I took the initiative and e-mailed Natural Balance and asked if any of their dry formulas are bladder health friendly (since it doesn't list them)/anti-crystal friendly... I know I must sound like a nut here - but my cousin's cat who is half the age of my oldest male cat ended up with them and spend an entire week in the hospital with a bill costing more than 1 grand... my cat is 9 1/2 >...<  My understanding is, a pH diet and a diet low in magnesium and Ash helps this

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all of our cat formulas have a Urinary pH balance of 6.2-6.4. Our Green Pea & Duck dry cat formula contains 5.57% Ash (mineral content) on an As-Fed Basis, which is our lowest Ash dry formula that we offer.

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So ash apparently is a harmful filler but the contents in this food is 5.57% - not sure if that percent is high or not.  In terms of ph - I read the ideal ph is 6.0 to 6.5... so that checks out too.

**Fingers crossed... gonna go all out on this***

Thanks for all the advice here

Ash isn't a filler. It is what is left after the food has been incinerated. Minerals don't burn so it is an indication of the total mineral content of the food.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Ash = Soda Ash = Sodium carbonate = Washing Soda.

It is also used in human food esp. for nixtamalization of corn for tortillas and masa.

No, ash in pet foods is entirely different. For one, it's not actually ADDED to the food, it's what's left over once the food is burned. It's how you determine total mineral content. Here's a link that explains it better: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-ash/

Willowy said:

No, ash in pet foods is entirely different. For one, it's not actually ADDED to the food, it's what's left over once the food is burned. It's how you determine total mineral content. Here's a link that explains it better: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-ash/

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So the percent isn't significant then if it's just the percent of trace elements right?  'cause the other percentage is carbs, protein and fat and it doesn't tell you the ratio of those... so can't tell if it's high in carbs or protein.  And hmm everything needs trace elements right?    I guess this was confusing considering some sites list it ash as "fillers" that can contribute to crystal problems

Here's the issue with "stones." We learned the hard way with our males - they all had crystals in their urine over a several month period and blocked.

Male cats have very narrow urethras, and if they develop crystals beyond normal levels in the urine, it irritates the bladder, and they can get blocked with sloughing of cells from the bladder wall, mucous, and the crystals.

It is a genetic proclivity and the pH of the urine - and the concentration of the urine that determine whether or not a cat will have a problem with crystals.

For a while there, the most prevalent type of crystal in cats' urine was struvite crystals. These are created in urine that is not acidic enough. Whenever you see "bladder health" on a non-prescription cat food, that means it has acidifiers in it. BUT... when all the cat food manufacturers adjusted their formulas, then cats started having problems with calcium oxalate crystals. These are created I BELIEVE, if I remember correctly, in a bladder that is low pH combined with higher magnesium levels.

The bottom line is that a kibble-based diet usually leaves cats with concentrated urine. The number one thing that can be done to reduce the risk of crystals in urine is dilute the urine. And the vet prescription foods for urine health NOW target a pH neutral urine.

But they are typically not very healthy foods, and are loaded with carbs, and yes, they are a cause of weight gain, and thus a risk for diabetes.

If you think about what a cat eats when not owned by a person, in the wild, they hunt small rodents, rabbits, birds - and depending upon where they are, they'll also eat things like lizards. They do not graze on grass, they do not raid the garden, they do not eat corn. They may derive SOME minor nutrition from the contents of the stomach of an animal, but as Stefan pointed out, this is a very, very, very small amount of grass or grain or whatever is in there.

Cats are carnivores. Their digestive system is so finely tuned to eating meat/bones/organs of other animals that they are unable to derive nutritional value from things WE think of as nutritious. Take carrots for example. They do not possess the digestive enzymes necessary to process beta carotene into vitamin A. They MUST get their vitamin A from animal tissue.

That said, the highly processed kibble and canned food we feed them is cooked. This destroys a lot of the nutrients they need from the meat that is in the food. So supplements are added. EVERYTHING ELSE is in there because it's cheaper than meat, and it appeals to US. Cats do not need, nor do they eat things like carrots, peas, potatoes, corn, etc. etc. etc. Their digestive systems are not designed to properly utilize them.

Given the choice between dry food and wet food, the way my vet puts it is that it's better to feed them the cheapest wet food than the most expensive dry food. I'm not so sure I believe this... but I take the point. Some meat and a lot of moisture is better for them.

I decided to improve the quality of the food my cats eat. I transitioned them off kibble altogether - and they were on the prescription kibble for the urine crystal problem they'd had. I was feeding them some canned food twice a day - they weren't big fans. But I got them on timed meals with wet food only. Then I took them off the prescription food, and raised the quality of the canned food they were getting - I purchased the grain-free brands that were mostly meat-based, like Instinct and EVO. I added a tablespoon of water to the wet food, and I kept their urine VERY dilute. They never developed a problem with crystals, even on that non-prescription diet. I have no idea what the calcium or phosphorous or magnesium levels are in those foods.

My cats are older: most of them will be 10 this year. They've been on an all wet food diet for 1.5 years. I found that my gang need FAR LESS food than recommended on the feeding guides on the cans. My guys need only about 4 ounces a day. And one of my cats - at 14 pounds - is FAT on THAT amount of food.

When I transitioned from the free-fed kibble, I was CERTAIN I was not feeding them enough food. I fed them twice as much as they needed, and they all started gaining weight! Yes, that pitiful amount in the bowl three times a day (I feed mine 4 times a day) is enough food! For your overweight cat, you will need to feed more at first - you don't want them to lose weight too quickly. But you should calculate how much food they need for their ideal weight (which is usually less than we THINK it is!!!), and calculate how much food they need for their current weight. Feed for the current weight, then slowly bring it down to the amount for their ideal weight.

If you want to figure out the guaranteed analysis of protein vs fat vs ash and determine the carbs in a food, you need to "remove" the moisture from the calculation to get at proper numbers. Dry food is usually around 10-11%; wet food usually 68% - 78% moisture. When you're looking at the food on a dry matter basis, after you take out protein, fat, ash, and fiber, what you are left with is carbohydrates. So you can use the guaranteed analysis provided by the manufacturer to compare foods, and then plug those numbers into a "Dry Matter Basis" calculator. There is one on this page - in boxes on the right-hand side of the screen, scroll down to "Special Features." The Dry Matter Basis calculator is the second link: http://catcentric.org/

When looking for a food, you really want to choose one that has the lowest carbs, and the first 3-5 things on the list of ingredients should be meat. For instance, Instinct canned chicken: Ingredients: "Chicken, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Chicken Liver, Ground Flaxseeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Eggs, Peas, Carrots, Lecithin, Vitamins...." http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/cat/can/chicken

And re: the amount to feed. Our Sheldon was looking thin - certainly leaner than the rest of the cats. He went to the vet for his annual check up, and we were informed that he could stand to LOSE a pound. I think we're just used to looking at overweight cats, and a healthy weight will actually look "skinny" to most of us. :nod:

I agree that cats don't need as much as it says on the can/bag. I have a lot of cats so I don't feed them individually. But every day I put out 4 13.2-ounce cans and 5 cups of dry food. Divided by 20 cats, that comes to 2.64 ounces of canned and 1/4 cup dry each. Not much! And they usually have leftovers, so most days I only give them 4 cups of dry, and that's only 1/5 cup each. And some of them are still fat. . .sigh. So obviously that's more than enough.