Started them on raw tonight :D - Page 4

Flowerbelle and Shelly are our worst travel-to-the-vet kitties. She needs to have her blood pressure taken, and I want Stan to have a look at her and listen to her. Of course... she hasn't been coughing much the past few days. NOT THAT I'M COMPLAINING. It's just the old "car won't make that noise when you take it to the shop" kind of thing. And of COURSE her BP will be sky high, poor thing gets SO nervous.

Anyway... we had lamb for dinner. And go figure, everyone but Shelly basically devoured it. Again, I was amazed at how much Flowerbelle ate before I went in there to relocate her bowl for her. Tux didn't even need additional topping to finish his off. AND how hungry could they have been? Dinner was somewhere between an hour and one-and-a-half hours late.



Day 6 / Evening 7

In fact, Tuxie WAS going to start beating up on a sleeping Ming Loy. BUT... he'd been asking for dinner INSISTENTLY while I was finishing dethawing it, it was pretty late, and I think it's a potential he was redirecting some frustration there - or knew it was a way to get attention.

Otherwise,

No one has chased Spooky.
Spooky has not even looked sideways at Chumley.
No incidents between Laz and Bill.

And a footnote: Tuxedo is the only one still asking for kibble. He's giving up more quickly though.

I've been adding less water to their raw than I was to their canned. But don't forget - until recently you were also feeding partially kibble. I was feeding four timed meals a day, all canned. That's at LEAST four tablespoons of water a day - plus the moisture in the canned, which seems to be a bit more than in the raw. I didn't measure the water, I use a squirt bottle and just splop water in their bowls. Because Chum was dehydrated when we first rescued him, I gave him a LOT of water - and MAN that boy was peeing. But I never altered how much water I was running through him.

So I've been gradually reducing the amount of water they're getting, so yes, I'm seeing less pee.

And, speaking of water, I had a bit of a scare this morning. One of the smaller water bowls was EMPTY - and I cleaned and filled it before bed. I wondered WHO the heck had gone crazy and why.... and then I saw Ming Loy wobbling around. I felt the carpet under the bowl. Yup - soaking wet. Ming Loy must have fallen over into the bowl and sloshed all the water out of it without tipping it over.

Lazlo woke me early this morning wanting food. I made him wait until breakfast. As I was fixing their bowls, he retched. Obviously his tummy was empty, so it was just bile. I felt TERRIBLE. I mean - he's been battling bleeding ulcers. KNOCK WOOD - at least there was no blood (he's on medication). But I have GOT to get treats I can feed them that are quick and easy. I ordered some S&C chicken dehydrated.

And he didn't eat much rabbit at breakfast. So I opened up a can of food after breakfast was done and let him eat. He ate quite a bit.

Lauren, I talked with AC about the right amounts tonight too. She replied to your thread. I was trying to compare how much wet they ate with how much canned they were eating. She pointed out that it's comparing apples and oranges. (Well, hamburgers and carrots anyway LOL).

That said... my cats were eating FAR FAR less than the recommended amount of canned food.

AC's point is that it's better to overfeed than underfeed, and to adjust from there.

We don't have a scale here to measure their weight. I do have a gram scale, so can measure their food... but I'm not inclined to do that unless it becomes necessary, and I don't think it is, yet.

I know all of their ideal weights:

Lazlo (going to be 10 this year) 11.5 pounds (He's 12 pounds 6 ounces at last weigh in, and the vets definitely do NOT want him gaining weight from there!)

Shelly (going to be 10 this year) 11.5 pounds (they have the EXACT same build). I suspect Shel weighs around 11 pounds - MAYBE 11.5. Somewhere between is possible, of course. He's definitely lost weight the past... few weeks? Month? All I know is that when he was last at the vet, he weighed 12 pounds, and she said he could stand to lose a pound. And he looked thin to me. Now he looks skinny. Not unhealthy skinny like Lazlo did before... but skinny.

Tuxedo (going to be 10 this year) 10.5 - 11 pounds. He weighed over 12 pounds last month when we took him in. Given he got down to 7 pounds with the anemia, and we fought it for years, every time he gained weight, we were just SOOO happy. But at 11.5 pounds, he looked healthy to me. But I know that "healthy" to me is technically overweight for them. Stan said (when he weighed 11 3/4 pounds) that for MOST cats, he'd recommend him losing a pound, but he was willing to make an exception for Tuxedo.

Spooky (going to be 10 this year) 10.5 - 11 pounds. She's roughly the same size as Tuxie. She was overweight, but took it off slowly last year, and I'm pretty sure she's at her ideal weight. She was last at the vet in April for a dental. I don't remember how much she weighed then, but she needed to lose a little weight, and she has since then.

Flowerbelle and Ming Loy are my little girls. (Flowerbelle will be 9 (!!) this year; Ming Loy will be 8) Ming Loy got up to about 10 pounds, I think, at her peak, and was fat. I've definitely managed to take some weight off of her the past year, but it was slow going. I'm not sure how much she weighs now, but she and Flowerbelle are the same size (or should be). As Flowerbelle weighs 8 pounds, and isn't fat, I'm guessing Ming Loy is between 8.5 and 9 pounds. Their ideal weight is 7.5 pounds, but Stan wasn't in a rush to get the weight off (Flowerbelle).

Billy is fat.(Going to be 5 this year). He weighed 14 pounds (and I think he GAINED weight from there). He's the reason we stopped free feeding kibble. He's got roughly the same frame as Tux and Spook. He has definitely lost some weight over the past several months as I've been more diligent about ensuring he doesn't eat the other kitties' food during meals, but he needs to lose weight. He may be back to 14 pounds... he may be 13 pounds... I don't really know. I don't remember if he still had a waist when we were at the vet with him. But he SHOULD be 10.5 to 11 pounds.

Chumley (going to be 5 or 6 this year) gained a lot of weight with the free feeding, our poor rescue baby. He's the reason we went to timed wet food meals. He also got up to around 14 pounds, and Dr. Cheng wants him around 10.5 - 11, though she wouldn't complain at 12. But he's lost weight - he probably weighs between 12 and 13 pounds now.

The bottom line? I think we're used to thinking cats are a healthy weight when they are, in fact, overweight. Their healthy weights all look very thin to me... but that is one thing the vets definitely know better than I do. On that, I will believe them. Especially since three of them all seem to agree on what the ideal weights for them are.

So how much to feed?

AC feels it's best to feed at the 3% of their body weight. This works out to more than the feeding calculators on the sites - but I am clicking on inactive senior when using the calculators. Several of the feeding guidelines from the companies target 2% of the body weight. I chatted with Stan today because we were there with Flowerbelle.. Now, he knows next to nothing about feeding raw. But his opinion (for what it's worth) is that I should gauge the appropriate amounts by how much gets left in the bowls of the kitties that self-regulate (on average, over a couple of days).

I am pretty sure that Billy has a very slow metabolism. So if I look at them as a group, using 3% for all of them BUT Bill, and using 2% for him, and using their TARGET weights, I should be feeding 2 pounds, 6 ounces daily. I've been feeding 2 pounds. At each meal, I give them one 8 ounce patty NOT divided equally. I haven't been weighing, but I give Flowerbelle and Ming Loy the least, and Shel and Laz the most.

HOWEVER... Tux, Laz, and Flowerbelle ask for food outside of meals, and I've been giving them canned (I used to give them kibble outside of meal time). I've been giving in less and less to Tux and Flowerbelle outside of meals, and they've been eating meals pretty well. But Lazlo... because of his (former, knock wood) ulcers and the cancer... I don't feel comfortable not letting him eat when he's hungry. He's been eating meals pretty well, for the most part. But I don't "force" any of them to finish. I do encourage them to with SOME fussing, coaxing, and toppers LOL., but I can do more to help them finish.

I think they're OVERALL getting what they need... because Flowerbelle weighs the same amount today as she did last month. If I were underfeeding her, I think we'd be seeing that by now. I know one week isn't enough to tell, but we'll be back in three weeks with her, so I'll have really good input then.

Shelly has not been finishing his meals the past day and a half or so. And toppers and fussing aren't helping. And Billy is all to happy to eat his food.

So here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to assume that because they needed SO MUCH LESS than the recommended amounts of canned food, that they don't need the recommended amount of raw. AC says that it's rare that 2% of body weight is enough. So if I calculate 2.5% for all of them but Bill, and calculate him at 2%, I need 2 pounds of raw each day, which is what I've been feeding. But there is leftover for the ferals every day. Not each meal, but some here and there from various cats. I'll weigh the leftover the next few days, but based on volume, I'd guess it's about 4 ounces of food.

And the "between meals" canned eaten by Laz, Tux, and Flowerbelle works out to be about 3-4 ounces. I typically give them two 3 ounce cans (total, not each) in a 24-hour period, and they leave half of each to a little less than half of each uneaten.

I ordered Stella & Chewy's dehydrated chicken for cats. It won't be here until the end of the week or the beginning of next week. But instead of canned, I'm going to give that to Lazlo - and maybe Tux and Flowerbelle - between meals. Tux and Flowerbelle I'm going to get stricter about finishing meals and not feeding between meals, but that's a goal, not an ultimatum. Yet.

Lazlo can eat when he's hungry.

While I wait for the S&C, I'll give them some Halo chicken as a treat, and I'm going to put more effort into getting them to finish their meals.

And Shel... I don't know what's up. But I'm going to switch how they eat. Flowerbelle has ADD when it comes to eating. Even though she's hungry, she gets distracted really easily. To manage that, I've been feeding her alone in the bathroom. But a couple of meals, she was asleep and didn't wake up when called for meals (she's deaf). So I stuck her bowl up in her "cave" in the upper corner of the bedroom. She eats REALLY well there!

So starting tonight (and I'm late for late night dinner!), I'm going to put Shel in the bathroom, and Flowerbelle in her cave.

And I'm going to continue to feed 2 pounds of raw, and bump the amount I give to Shel and Laz a little bit, and reduce the amount I've been giving Ming Loy and Billy. Flowerbelle I think has a high/fast - whatever word - metabolism. At 3% and 7.5 pounds, she needs basically the same amount of food as Billy at 2% of 11 pounds (3.5 ounces a day).

Lazlo, we'll find out on Monday what he weighs - and it'll have been basically two weeks on raw (or mostly raw).

Sorry for blathering on.

The short answer to your question is - I feed them about an ounce at each meal, four times a day. Laz and Shel probably get somewhere around 5 ounces over the course of the day because I give them more; Flowerbelle, Ming Loy, and Billy probably get around 3.5 ounces, and Spook, Tux, and Chum get about 4 ounces.

OK. Here's the table I created:

11.5 pounds Lazlo: @2.5% = 4.6 ounces
11.5 pounds Shel: @2.5% = 4.6 ounces
10.5 pounds Chum @2.5% = 4.2 ounces
10.5 pounds Spook @2.5% = 4.2 ounces
11 pounds Tuxie @ 2.5% = 4.4 ounces
11 pounds Billy @2.0% = 3.5 ounces
7.5 pounds Flowerbelle @3% = 3.6 ounces
7.5 pounds Ming Loy @2.5% = 3.0 ounces
Total: 32.1 ounces (almost exactly 2 pounds LOL).

And Laz, Tux, and Flowerbelle - and maybe Shel - will likely get some extra from "treats" (S&C dehydrated - which will be fed both dehydrated as a treat and rehydrated as a treat).

And with that, I'm off for their now pretty late, late night meal.


Edited by LDG - 1/25/12 at 9:15pm

OK. Lazlo woke me at 6:30 this morning for food. Because their meal time was two hours away, and it had been 7.5 hours since he ate, I opened a 3 oz can of Instinct Turkey for him. He ate about... 3/4 of an ounce of it. The ferals are getting the rest. I didn't let Tux, Flowerbelle, or Shel have any.

I'm getting low on raw and MUST go get more today. I've only had NV Rabbit and S&C Lamb available the last 1.5 days, and while they LOVE rabbit, they are SICK of lamb. BUT... since the NV definitely has too much bone, I fed them lamb for breakfast.

I think I am going to start weighing their individual portions for a while to make sure I'm divvying the portions up correctly. We have a food scale. It was weird this morning (which is why I think they're sick of lamb). Spooky only ate about half her food, Shelly took a LOT of fussing to get to about half his food. Lazlo left about 1/3 of his, same for Flowerbelle. Tuxie left a few bites. I'm not sure that all adds up LOL (actually, I just went and figured it out, and it does), but combined there was 1.8 ounces of food left for the ferals. This was about twice what they normally leave unfinished.

So per meal (as I feed them 4x a day), the amount I should be giving them (based on everyone at 2.5% of ideal body weight except Billy, at 2%, and Flowerbelle, at 3%) is:

Lazlo 1.15 oz
Shel 1.15 oz
Chum 1.05 oz
Spook 1.05 oz
Tuxie 1.10 oz
Billy 0.88 oz
Flowerbelle 0.88 oz
Ming Loy 0.75 oz

Oh - last night everyone ate great - except Shelly. I managed to get him to eat 3/4 of his food. There was nothing left, however, as I took what Shel wouldn't eat and gave the extra to Laz, Tux, and Spook.

So Carolina, are you going to start giving them less food, so they start to take off some weight?

I'm glad someone besides me appreciated all that information. Talking it through with AC, and working it out for me I think was a good exercise. My theory is that given they can pretty much all stand to lose a little weight, I'd rather be slightly underfeeding and see what happens. And I just have to concentrate on Shel finishing his meals better.

OH - I did measure the amounts at lunch. Turns out I was pretty much spot on in my guesstimations. So the only one I'm going to track is Shelly. I'm going to keep track of what he doesn't eat, so I know how much is going in him.



OK, we got more food! I'm not that excited - he'd sold the S&C duck, and didn't have more. He did order the NV chubs for us - and as I have exactly one rabbit patty left, I had no choice but to get more NV rabbit. I had to buy the bag of medallions, as it's only 3 pounds, and the 6 pound bag of patties would NOT fit in the freezer right now.

So I'm not excited that all I have for a little while here is NV. BUT I feel better knowing their poops are supposed to be crumbly like this. I haven't seen anyone go to the bathroom lately - I just hope no one is straining. Oh - and I do have the S&C lamb to include in rotation.

BUT - I now have four proteins. Chicken (four pounds), beef (four pounds), rabbit (3 pounds), and lamb (2 pounds). (Just shy of what I need for a week).

Jim's ordering (Primal) turkey and S&C duck for me (for delivery next Tues to the store). In retrospect, I wish I hadn't asked him to order the NV chicken chubs. I just thought they'd fit in the fridge/feezer better (they do), and I was worried they won't like beef (they might not, I don't know for sure yet), but I'd rather be using the Vital Essences chicken. I'll make sure he can sell the NV chicken chubs to others - I won't stick him with it. (They come in a box of.. .12? I took home two pounds of each, beef and chicken).

I hacked up one of the chicken chubs into four ounce chunks(8 ounces each) - easier to manage that way. It's in the fridge. I sliced two of those into 2 oz chunks, because I decided to introduce beef tonight. So I sliced off an approximate 2 oz chunk from a beef chub - and we should be good to go shortly.

I did slice of a little sliver of the beef chub, and just walk around offering a little to everyone as a treat. Billy completely bonked out. And Flowerbelle who often turns her nose up at things - well - she's just a red meat lover, I think. We'll see!

Dinner tonight will be 75% chicken, 25% beef.

***********************

I also came home with a pile of "other" stuff. *sigh* THAT is one thing I did NOT factor into raw feeding - the cost of the transition. I bought some canned food just to make sure there's something to eat if for any reason we can't get to the store. I came home with two jars of Halo chicken (and that stuff is just expensive, sorry) - but it helps everyone (other than Flowerbelle) finish their meals. I still have dried liver to crush on top (takes very little - that goes a long way), and I came home with freeze dried turkey meat, which I'll also be able to crush on top as a "finish this!" enticement.

And I was AMAZED - the S&C chicken (dehydrated) I ordered was HERE today! It said to expect delivery between NEXT tuesday and Friday - I did NOT pay for expedited! I am VERY excited about that. So now I have a quick alternative to canned food for Lazlo's "between meal" eating - either rehydrated or dehydrated.

Gary asked me if I was SURE this was going to cost the same or less. I told him yes - eventually. HOPEFULLY next month. I am really, really hoping that I won't need to buy any more fortiflora, halo chicken OR canned food (though we'll probably always keep some on hand just in case of emergency). The S&C dehydrated.... I'll probably need to keep getting for Lazlo. I should contact them to make sure it's OK to use one bag over 2-3 weeks.




Edited by LDG - 1/26/12 at 2:18pm

75% chicken and 25% beef dinner was a hit for all of them except Spooky and Shel. Spook does this - not want to eat sometimes. She makes up for at the next meal usually, so I don't know that it was the food.

And Shel? I don't know what's up with him. He had a couple of bites, and it did NOT matter what I did to it, he didn't want to eat it. But he was hungry - he ate some S&C rehydrated, he ate some Halo - both dry and rehydrated, and some turkey treats, again, both dry and rehydrated.

I'm not giving him more food. I'll feed them rabbit for the late night meal and see what happens.

I didn't think to feel how cold the food was - I'd smooshed it around in warm water. But it might have been a little chilly. I'm wondering if temperature is an issue for him.....

Yep, she does. Right now, sadly, all I have is NV. OH - no, I still have S&C Lamb.

Actually, the prices Jim charges us, not his listed prices, it works out the same, roughly $4.50 per pound for NV - everything except the rabbit, which is $5.80 per pound. Online, the chubs cost much less per pound (the listed prices, without shipping). But shipping often adds 50% or more to the cost. Not always, I'm sure. I'm just pretty sure it's cheaper to have Jim order the stuff for us rather than order it online, so I haven't searched that hard for where to buy online at this point.

Well I had to log in from the phone (not starting up the laptop) because the late night meal went so well! Went for the fallback, NV rabbit (it was also the most dethawed). I set up alarms for myself so I take the food out of the fridge to let it warm up properly for meal time.

Everyone but Spooky and Flowerbelle finished everything.

Spooky left about 1/3; Shel ate most of that! (Lazlo finished it off ).

Flowerbelle left about 1/4, and Tuxie ate all of that!

In the morning, we're trying beef again, but at a 50/50 mix with chicken, both NV.

Oh, last thing. The late night meal was definitely warmer than cool. Not my definition of warm, but definitely NO chill to it. Total eating time was about 10 minutes.

First, Lazlo woke me at 6:30 for food. I grabbed the Halo, gave him a couple of pieces (not rehydrated) and went back to sleep. He was happy, his tummy was happy, and that makes me happy. And I got to barely wake up to deal with it.

THEN it was time for breakfast.

OK - HOW many times has Carolina told us to introduce slowly? And HOW many times did I say I should? So exactly WHY did I not learn from Carolina's and Lauren's experiences and jump to 50/50 NV chicken and beef this morning?

I experimented. I plopped half the chicken on one side, and half the beef on the other. No mixing water, no toppers, and put it down for them to eat.

Flowerbelle, Lazlo, Shel, and Tuxie took a couple of licks and looked at me like - I'm supposed to eat this?

So I mixed theirs with water and put on their respective toppers. Tuxie dove in, Lazlo dove in, Flowerbelle dove in. Tuxie ate all of his, Flowerbelle ate ALL of hers (!!!), and Lazlo ate most of his. I let Spooky finish Lazlo's because she didn't eat dinner at all yesterday, and didn't eat all of her last meal last night.

Shel needed fussing to eat most of his.

And then he promptly threw it all up.

What I'm failing to get here is my thinking. When introducing a new kibble, I would transition over a WEEK. So exactly why do I think new raw proteins can just be thrown at them in these quantities?

The good news is he likes the beef, he ate it first. So I just need to back up and take incorporating it more slowly.

LOL, we had a nice, safe, breakfast of NV chicken only. Lunch was lamb - it was the only thing dethawed enough. Dinner was NV rabbit. (NV is all I have right now! ).

Spooky's not eating well now... I started to wonder if it was the raw. But she's (overall) been eating fine - no fussing, no toppers needed for the most part. I quickly made her some canned without everyone noticing, but she didn't want that either. I'll be keeping an eye on her.

Shelly's fine - finished 3/4 of breakfast and lunch (the lamb took some convincing LOL), and ate most of dinner.

I'll start over with the beef tomorrow at 25%.

Well, we are overdue for an update, and there's a lot of catching up to do, because the poop-o-meter had a problem last night!

I fed them NV chicken for the late night meal. Everyone ate. BUT - Lazlo had 2 or 3 bites. I couldn't get him to any more. Well, it became clear quite quickly why. He jumped down and threw up. He got up a large hairball (and it looked like something broken in half, so I think there's more in there. ).

Then right after that, he went to the box and had diarrhea.

Given he's on only raw - not even canned food since the morning before (though Instinct and Evo have essentially no carbs) - thanks to AC, I know the food should be moving through him in about 12-13 hours. *nod* Now - his GI system may be somewhat compromised given the tumor in his stomach. And as he threw up exactly the couple of bites of chicken, the hairball, and TWO sucralfate pills, something's up. I give him sucralfate at night after the last meal, and in the morning at the time of their first meal. But his stomach was otherwise empty of food.

As so many kitties have trouble with beef, while Shelly's expressed his problem with it right away by throwing up, I think Lazlo's issue with the beef was at the other end. (And throughout this journey with the lymphoma - stomach tumor - diarrhea has never been a problem).

No NV beef for a little while until I'm sure that's what the problem was. If it was any other kitty, I might continue to include it at a smaller percent. But this is our Lazlo. His body doesn't need the stress.

The GOOD news, however, is that Spooky was happy to eat her food and Lazlo's. Shel and Tux ate all of theirs without much fussing either.

SO ... I was up until really late for me last night. The good news was that shortly after the vomiting/diarrhea issue, he was on Gary's lap, enjoying pets and acting just fine. In fact, he woke me up at 6:30 for food this morning. I gave him Halo Chicken treats.

But I could NOT deal with walking up enough to warm up food from the fridge at breakfast. I gave them canned. Instinct Turkey. Everyone ate just fine, including Lazlo.

So it was NV rabbit for lunch. Lazlo, Spooky, and Shel each left about 1/3 of their food behind. But I'm a happy camper.

Lazlo was playing, and has been pestering me for food all afternoon. So I'm thinking - and hoping - that was all it took to get it out of his system.

Of course, I've been watching the boxes like a hawk today. The other good news is that Billy, Spooky, Tuxie, and Chumley are all pooping great!

They'll be having NV chicken for dinner.

Oh - I really HAVE to add - even though everyone ate so well at breakfast, it WAS canned. And though this shouldn't surprise me, everyone - particularly Flowerbelle - was pestering me for more food all morning. The difference between canned and raw really is stark.

And I haven't provided any behavior updates recently.

That's because they're the same!

Spooky no longer seems bothered by Chumley.
Tuxie doesn't seem to feel the need to beat anyone up - especially Ming Loy - any more.
Chumley's been sleeping on the bed. He's done this before, but he always seems very... "on alert" when there are a lot of other kitties in here. He seems MUCH more relaxed! And this was often where there were issues with Spooky. In fact, he slept on my pillow last night.
Lazlo keeps an eye on Bill - but no more bopping, and Billy's not doing any more slinking around him.
The new one last night? Sheldon decided to groom Flowerbelle, extensively. She wasn't too into it, but didn't stop him.