Started them on raw tonight :D - Page 7

I keep searching craigslist for a freezer....

And no, Lazlo shouldn't be having non-HPP foods yet. The vet wanted me to wait until about two weeks after his last chemo treatment. But Nature's Variety rabbit was the standy-by go-to food that they all liked, and didn't seem to get tired of. There happens to be a shortage right now, so there isn't any available! In a tizzy, I ordered the Feline's Pride thinking it would work as a substitute. WRONG. The Feline's Pride is very much juicy raw meat. The NV is drier, smells less like meat, and even though it's 95% meat/bone/organ and 5% other stuff - whatever that other stuff is, it seems to make a BIG difference. As does the HPP processing for the pathogen-free guarantee, because it just completely looks different.

It is definitely worth a try!!!! Unfortunately Lazlo isn't a big fan (he doesn't like Fortiflora either), so it's not helping with him. Of course - right at the moment with Laz, it's hard to tell whether it's the food or his sense of smell. That should be calming down in another day or two, and with no more chemo treatments, won't be an issue going forward.

VERY INTERESTING UPDATE THIS MORNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK. I am always sleep deprived because of the way life doesn't run on an optimal night time schedule around here. So I take a sleeping pill sometimes on the weekends. I think I took one last weekend, and I took one last night. So when the alarm rang at 8:00, I was SO groggy, and I intended to go back to sleep. Instead of messing with raw, I did the lazy breakfast again this morning. I put out junk food (on a relative basis) - Wellness Turkey, which they all love.

Now - when I was feeding canned, I would just split one 5.5 oz can at two meals, and I'd add a 3 oz can at two meals (or a 5.5 oz can and add about half of it around, give the rest to the ferals). BUT - Laz, Flowerbelle, and Tux would get kibbles supplemented at some point. I think maybe 1/4 cup between them, with Laz and Tux eating the most. So I never really knew exactly how much food they were eating, which is why how much to feed them raw is a bit of a shot in the dark with an educated guess/calculation.

So I fed them the same 8 oz they've been getting raw, only canned. Laz, Tux, Shel, a little more than an ounce of it; Flowerbelle, Billy, Ming Loy a little less than an ounce of it (given their sizes).

Tuxie, Lazlo, and Flowerbelle left the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF CANNED FOOD IN THEIR BOWLS THAT THEY DO RAW FOOD.

So while it may not look to me like they're eating their raw with the same "gusto" - the fact of the matter is the issue is NOT the raw food! These guys are STILL having issues eating enough at timed meals, because they still want food between meals!

Of course - because I fuss with the raw and encourage them to eat most of it, they do eat more of the raw than they did of the canned, so don't bother me for between meal food (usually). Laz is the only real exception to that.

Now - Shelly DID eat almost all of his food. He was hungry. So at this point, my figuring is that Shel is my only problem kitty in that he really doesn't like the raw I'm currently feeding them (NV chicken, Feline's Pride rabbit). He had no issue with the NV rabbit or S&C lamb - and if not offered to frequently, he also likes the Vital Essentials chicken.

So until I've got a protein he likes here, I think I am going to take a step back with Shel (so he doesn't get bored with the S&C chicken either), and at SOME meals, mix his raw with canned. If he had weight to lose, I'd probably force it. But he doesn't, so I won't.



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OH! I totally forgot to tell you about the late night meal! As they're all bored of the NV chicken, and don't really like the NV lamb, I started the intro to DUCK! I broke out almost 8 oz of NV chicken, and 2 oz of Bravo duck (basics, not complete). I prepared their NV chicken with the added water and toppers for the kitties that get them, and then just plopped a small amount of duck on top.

Shelly sniffed it and buried it. LOL. I mixed in the duck, added a little more salmon topper, and he ate a little. I did not force more on him, and figured he'll be hungry in the morning.

Laz and Tux ate about half. Tux ate a little more with another round of salmon topper (I LOVE that it takes so little because of the strong smell!)

Billy, Ming Loy, Spooky, and Chumley ate the plop of duck first, and finished the rest of their meals.

Flowerbelle ate the duck and left the rest of her meal. I had to coax her to eat more - I used Fortiflora and dried liver, ultimately, to get her to eat most of it. Flowerbelle, again, likes raw! She just does not like eating all her food at once. I have to take it away, and then bring it back. It's tedious. But when we free fed kibble, that girl would eat like 2-3 pieces of kibble at a time, about a million times a day. She is NOT into timed meals. BUT... she's slowly getting with the plan.

I don't have enough duck to even add 25% at each meal between now and tomorrow night. And I'm not sure we're here Tuesday to pick up the S&C duck (which BETTER get delivered!!!!). But such is life.

They'll just have to eat more NC chicken and Feline's Pride rabbit.

I am wondering if I should try FP rabbit and duck at one of the meals... decisions, decisions.

**********************
And on that note, I'm late for lunch!

Quickly, just to log it here, because I am SO late with dinner...

Let's see... lunch was NV chicken and FP rabbit. Everyone but Shel and Laz ate OK.

Dinner was NV chicken and 25% duck. Took a lot of fussing to get Shel and Laz to eat enough, and Tuxie would NOT eat more than a couple of licks. I took out an NV lamb medallion (one ounce). He ate maybe 1/3 of it.

Late night meal is going to be NV chicken and NV lamb.

OH! And for those that didn't see Lauren's thread, Carolina helped me figure out the difference between NV rabbit and other rabbit... NV mixes proteins in most of their meals. Rabbit is mixed with PORK. The kitties like THE PORK.

OK, late night meal did not go well either. Laz, Shel and Tux didn't eat enough.

Someone had poop with mucous in it overnight.

This morning I fed them FP rabbit (to finish off the one tub) and NV lamb. Flowerbelle threw up towards the end of her meal. Not all of what she'd eaten, and definitely NOT because she ate too fast. Don't know what it was - but she was fine, and hungry again LOL.

I chatted with Carolina, who suggested I try just one protein at a time. Apparently the mixing of proteins can irritate the colon, thus the mucous.

I KNOW they're sick of NV chicken, but that's what I fed at lunch. We were running errands, so back late. AC had suggested I try small chunks of chicken, so I picked up organic, humanely raised, etc. chicken thighs. I offered some to everyone before I put their food out.

Lazlo was not going to eat it. I shoved a small piece in his mouth. Then he ate it and a few more small pieces.
Spooky ate one piece, but didn't want any more.
Tuxie ate a number of small bits.
Flowerbelle ate one or two.
Billy, Ming Loy, and Chumley would have eaten as much as I would give them.
Shelly LOVED it.

SO... I tried using small pieces of chicken as a topper on the NV chicken. Major fail.

As I'm a little worried about how much Laz, Tux, Shel, and Flowerbelle are eating. I tried to track all four. But between all the bowl moving, toppers, and policing Billy, it's nearly impossible. Going forward, I'm just going to focus on Laz - maybe Shel.

At lunch, I got this far:

The bowls weigh 3.9oz.

Here's the weight of the bowls with food when I put it down for them to eat, and then the weight after they had their first pass at eating:

Shel 5.62 / 5.17 So Shel had 1.7oz in his bowl - he ate 0.45oz of it. So Shel ate almost half an ounce
Laz 5.57 / 5.50 Laz had 1.7 oz in his bowl - he ate 0.07 (one lick) of it. Lazlo didn't eat
Tux 5.56 / 4.93 Tux had 1.7 oz in his bowl - he ate 0.63 of it. Tux had almost a third of an ounce.

I added toppers, fussed, moved the bowls around... Tuxie probably ended up eating a little over an ounce. Laz and Shel wouldn't eat any more.

I feed Flowerbelle last, and forgot to weigh hers before I put it down. But she had a little over an ounce in her bowl, and she ate about half of it.

So I started cutting up meat from one chicken thigh. Shel ate probably 2 ounces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know how much Tux ate - another ounce or so? Lazlo had a few small pieces. I gave Bill, Chum, and Ming Loy just a couple small pieces - they didn't need more food. Spooky wouldn't eat any more, nor would Flowerbelle.

But Shel and Tux really liked it. And I think when Lazlo's smell is sorted, he probably will too. But two thighs got eaten (threw away the skin and bone - and they weren't that large, as they weren't steroid chickens LOL).

NOW... I started feeding them (late) at around 2:10. I was done at 3:35. It was nuts.

And as it's been a solid 24 hours since Lazlo ate anything close to reasonable, I decided I needed to find out if his problem is smell or raw. So at 4:30, I busted out the canned food. I started with EVO chicken and turkey.

I put it in a paper bowl (weighs 0.3oz). Here's what it weighed at the start, and at the end after offering it to each kitty:

Beginning: 5.55oz
After Lazlo ate, there was 5.19 left (he ate 0.36oz)
After Spooky ate, there were 3.7 ounces (she ate 1.5 oz - guess she was hungry!)
After Tuxie ate, there was 2.4 ounces (he ate 1.3 oz)
After Shel ate, there was 1.5 ounces (he ate 0.9 oz).

I offered it to Flowerbelle, and she took one lick. This surprised me, because she didn't eat much lunch.

I really don't know what to think. I know they're not big fans of NV chicken... but with no NV rabbit on the way, I really don't know what the heck to get for them/offer them. They're not eating enough.

Because Laz still didn't eat much, I busted out a smellier food - Wellness turkey & salmon. It took taking it away and offering it to him again a couple of times, but when I put it in front of him the first time, he dove right in. So clearly he's having issues with smell from the chemo. But he ate half an ounce.

I gave Lazlo an appetite stimulant. I don't actually remember the last time I gave him one - but I think it was over a month ago - might even be longer.

Now - by the time I was done with all of that, it was basically time for dinner again.

I KNOW they're sick of chicken - but the FP rabbit wasn't dethawed AT ALL (I took it out this morning, I think). I could probably have dumped the frozen block out of the tub and hacked some off, but since they don't really like rabbit, I didn't see the point. I decided to offer them a little duck mixed with chicken.

I didn't really make dinner for Tux, Laz, Spook or Shel - they'd pretty much just eaten. But I put out the 8 bowls, and put 0.25oz of duck (which would have been 25% of their normal 1 oz meal) in each one. I hadn't added the chicken yet - and decided to experiment. It is Bravo, not balanced - NO additives of any kind. Just meat and bone. So I put that little teeny bit of meat out for everyone to see if they liked it or not.

Everyone but Lazlo, Spooky, and Flowerbelle ate it up.

I then put out NV chicken again. Now - because I didn't mix digestive enzymes or probiotics in with the canned food, I went ahead and did that with dinner, even though I didn't expect the kitties that got canned to eat much. I was right - even with toppers, they didn't eat much.

I pulled up Lazlo's and waited about 15 minutes. I figured the appetite stimulant would start to kick in (it normally works really fast). I added more WL chicken ... and sure enough, he at least dug in. He ate 1/4 of an ounce.

The kitties that didn't get canned (Ming Loy, Billy, Chumley, and FLowerbelle) all got a normal amount. Everyone ate fine except Flowerbelle - who only ate about 1/4 of her food. I'm not worrying about her unless she doesn't eat much tonight.

So... I don't know what I'm going to do. I want them on raw, but I don't want them starving. Laz, Shel, Spook, Tux, and Flowerbelle self-regulate. So if they're hungry, they need food. Shel and Tux I'll probably just give organic chicken to them instead of the NV... but because they're not on a frankenprey rotation yet, I expect I'll pick up Vital Essentials instead of NV chicken.

With Lazlo... we'll see what the app stimulant does. It does make him ask for food about every half hour the first 20-24 hours or so... I've been offering him S&C chicken (dehydrated and rehydrated) - he doesn't want it. Flortiflora isn't helping. I've been trying NV raw with toppers and NV Lamb. Again - no interest. So he's been eating Dehydrated Turkey & Chicken treats, and so far, 0.6oz of more Wellness beef & salmon. Spooky muscled her way in there when he was done, so I figured she must be hungry. She ate another 1.4 ounces, and Shelly polished it off (for another ounce of food).

I'd order pork from Hare Today to add to the FP rabbit - in fact - I'd just switch to premixed meat/bone/organs and adding their supplement, but I don't have the freezer space.

I am just REALLY hoping that either S&C duck or Primal turkey will be a hit. HOPEFULLY I'm picking up both tomorrow.

OK, but if they won't eat the one protein?

I'll try not to make this a book.

Lazlo had diarrhea last evening again. Liquid, stinky, and with mucous. I think I figured out what caused it. I thought maybe it was the beef the last time. But I realized - I bought dried turkey as a topper. But it doesn't crush, so I just feed it as treats. I usually give a few pieces (and it's very small). But I DID give Lazlo a handful the day after I got it - the day before he had diarrhea - I was treating it like a kibble replacement. I gave him another small pile of turkey treats yesterday. Everyone got some. Ming Loy had never had them before, and this morning she had a normal poop, but with mucous in it.

The other "event" this morning was Tuxie. He stood there hissing in a very funny way - it was strange. I thought he was looking at Ming Loy, and I couldn't understand it. Well, turns out he was about to throw up a large hairball. I realized - I've never seen him throw up, or get a hairball up before. So Lazlo yowls before he throws up, and Tuxie hisses! But they hadn't had breakfast yet, so it was just hairball, and easy to clean. *phew*

************************************

OK. Since the app stimulant, Lazlo REALLY needs lots of small food frequently. And Spooky skipped the late night meal AND breakfast. Now - she seems to like raw for the most part, and when she eats it, she needs no toppers. But at this point, everyone has lost weight - and Tux, Shel, and Spook, a fair bit. And I think Flowerbelle is in that camp too.

So I'm not driving myself nuts anymore, and I'm not spending hours trying to get them to finish food they don't want. I'm not giving up on raw for the picky eaters, I'm just not going to try to force it.

I will start meals with raw. I'll fuss a little, and continue with the toppers. I never had to use much anyway - just a thin coat on top, and sometimes one or two more rounds. But if they don't eat, because they've all lost weight, I'm not going to let them go hungry any more. I'll offer them canned after that.

So here's how things went.

2/6/12 Late Night Meal

Tuxie had 100% lamb. He ate 0.66 oz
Shel had 75% lamb, 25% chicken. He ate 0.20 oz
Laz had 100% lamb. He ate 0.08 oz. (one lick).
Spooky didn't show up for the meal. She had no food.
Flowerbelle had 100% lamb. She ate 0.25 oz.

So I took out Wellness Turkey.
Lazlo ate an ounce.
Tux ate 0.78 oz
Shel ate 1.36oz
Flowerbelle ate 0.42 oz

Total meal intake:

Lazlo 1.09 oz
Tux 1.44 oz
Shel 1.56 oz
Flowerbelle 0.67 oz
Spooky - no food

I'm not tracking Billy, Ming Loy, or Chumley, because they eat all their food. No toppers, no fussing.


2/7/2012 Lazlo AM

Lazlo woke me at 7:30 for food (gave him appetite stimulant yesterday). He had a lot of WL chicken throughout the night. This time I offered him an NV lamb medallion. He didn't want it despite various toppers. I gave him Wellness Turkey. He ate 1.9 oz of it.

2/7/2012 AM Meal

Lazlo had 100% lamb. He ate 0.28 oz
Shel had cut up chicken thighs. He ate all of it. 1.5 oz
Tux had cut up chicken thighs. He ate a lot of it. 1.2 oz
Flowerbelle had 100% lamb. She ate 0.51 oz.
I later offered Flowerbelle Lazlo's lamb. She ate a couple of licks (0.04 oz)
I also offered her the Wellness Chicken (see below). She ate a few licks (0.09 oz).
Spooky - didn't show up for breakfast.

Wellness Chicken for Lazlo at AM Meal. He ate 0.37 oz

Total Intake:

Lazlo 0.65 oz
Tux 1.2 oz
Shel 1.5 oz
Flowerbelle 0.64 oz
Spooky - no food

**************************************

At 10:10am, Lazlo asked for more food. I offered him lamb, he didn't want it. I gave him Wellness chicken. He ate 0.34 oz.

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At 11:00pm, Spooky came out from under the bed. I offered her lamb, she didn't want any. I gave her EVO turkey & chicken. When she ate (only a little), I offered it to the picky raw eaters, then to Spook again.

Spooky at 0.38 oz total
Lazlo ate 0.72 oz
Tux ate 0.39 oz
Shel ate 1.3 oz
Flowerbelle ate 0.06 oz (a couple of licks).

I'm about to feed them lunch.

Aw, thanks everyone! Carolina - great idea.

Lunch: Lamb first, then chicken. (Ming Loy and Billy got chicken. Chumley got lamb).

NV Lamb
Lazlo 1.04 oz
Shel .33oz
Tux 0.30 oz
Flowerbelle 0.22 oz
Spooky - ate a couple of licks, then went under the bed.

NV Chicken
Laz 0.20 oz
Shel 0.20 oz
Tux 0.20 oz
Flowerbelle 0.31 oz

Total Intake:

Lazlo 1.24 oz
Shel 0.53 oz
Tux 0.50 oz
Flowerbelle 0.53 oz
Spooky 0

*********************************

I think something's up with Spook. This long without a good meal is not like her. If she doesn't eat by tonight, we're off to the vet tomorrow.

Mid-day total intake with 2 meals left to go:

Lazlo 4.85 oz
Shel 3.33 oz
Tux 2.09
Flowerbelle 1.01
Spooky 0.38

Just a reminder (for me LOL). My estimate of their daily needs:

Lazlo 4.6 oz (11.5 pound ideal weight at 2.5%)
Sheldon 4.6 oz (same as Lazlo)
Tuxie 4.2 oz (10.5 pound ideal weight at 2.5%)
Flowerbelle 3.6 oz (7.5 pound ideal weight at 3%)
Spooky 4.2 oz (same as Tuxie)
Billy 3.5 oz (11 pound ideal weight at 2%)
Chumley 4.8 oz (12 pound ideal weight at 3%)
Ming Loy 3.0 oz (7.5 pound ideal weight at 2.5%)

Billy and Ming Loy are getting fed closer to 4 oz. That would explain why Billy doesn't appear to be losing weight LOL. Ming Loy has a waist again, but her weight at this point seems stable.

Thanks.

We ran some errands, among them picking up cat food. We were down to exactly Feline's Pride rabbit (in the fridge) - which they do not like.

Came home with:

4 pounds Primal Turkey (it arrived!)
3 pounds NV chicken medallions
2 pound NV chicken chub
2 pounds Vital Essentials chicken patties
3 pounds NV lamb

It barely fit in the freezer, and that was after repacking so all medallions/patties were flat, removing the ice cube trays, and putting a bunch of chicken and 8 oz of lamb in the fridge.

Spooky was out. I didn't bother with raw, but grabbed a can of stinky Wellness chicken & salmon. She ate 3.66 ounces of it! but *phew*

Obviously she didn't show up for dinner (which was only 1.5 hours later, and served late).
I offered the bowl to Shel - he ate 1.15 oz.
Flowerbelle at 0.24 oz.

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Dinner was 100% lamb for Laz, Tux, Spook, and Flowerbelle, and 75% lamb/25% FP rabbit for Shel, Billy, Chumley, and Ming Loy.

Ming Loy walked away. This is the 2nd time. She does NOT like the rabbit. Since Spooky didn't show up for dinner, I gave Ming Loy Spooky's lamb. She liked that. She also enjoyed the larger portion.

Laz 0.40 oz
Shel 0.40 oz
Tux 0.60 oz
Flowerbelle 0.25 oz

So I took a 3 oz can of Wellness Turkey and plopped 1/3 of it on each boy's bowl of raw. They ate it.

Then I added water to what was left, another sprinkle of toppers (Fortiflora for Tux, WL chicken for Laz and Shel), and they all ate a little more (Laz, 0.15 oz, Shel 0.20 oz, and Tux 0.15 oz).

Total Dinner Intake:

Lazlo 0.75 oz
Shel 0.80 oz
Tux 0.95 oz
Spook 0 oz
Flowerbelle 0.25 oz

So the running total for the day is....

Lazlo 5.63 oz (and several rounds of WL chicken treats - 4-5 pieces each time)
Shel 5.32 oz
Tux 3.00 oz
Spooky 4.04 oz
Flowerbelle 1.72 oz (I missed a snack in the mid-day running total for Flowerbelle).

So everyone but Flowerbelle is on track. Not happy Spooky ate it all at one meal, but... what I'm wondering is why Flowerbelle doesn't seem hungry at all. Maybe since the Norvasc, she's sleeping more than she did ... so she only needs 2% of her body weight? (2.4 oz of food)?

Yeah, I've never seen Spooky eat that much at one go! I don't know WHY she is so off schedule but... I'll take what I can get right now.

As far as I can tell, the NV lamb smells just as strong as the S&C lamb. I think mine preferred the S&C lamb, but no S&C of any kind arrived today. That's partially why I went home with so much chicken. But when they get sick of chicken, lamb works; and when they get sick of lamb, chicken works. Rabbit does not work. Only NV rabbit, and who knows when it'll be available again?

And the ferals are LOVING this!!!!!

Yeah, and it's so unseasonably warm, we'd better get to it! We know of at least five, though we don't see any of them here. SOMEONE is eating all this food, and it is far more than "our" four.

OK! Spooky came out from under the bed again at around 9:00, so she had a snack, which then got offered to the other fussies. She didn't want the lamb medallion I quickly smooshed up, so I dropped Wellness turkey & salmon on it, because she seems to be eating that.

So, with dinner and snack combined, the daily total intakes were:

Lazlo 8.61 oz (GO LAZLO The appetite stimulant obviously worked - this is 2x what he needs and I normally give him. And that doesn't include all the WL chicken pieces he got. ).
Shel 6.93 oz (I think he was especially hungry, as he wasn't eating much the last few days, so took advantage of the canned supplement)
Tux 4.70 oz
Spooky 5.97 oz
Flowerbelle 2.73 oz

So everyone is doing fine on intake - except Flowerbelle. But she isn't acting hungry at all. If she only needs 2% of her target weight, then she did fine.

Dinner was NV lamb for Lazlo and Spooky. I'm keeping him on the one protein and canned until I'm sure diarrhea isn't a problem. No poop at all today, so I think this will be like last time - knock wood - and is already clearing up.
75% NV lamb / 25% Vital Essentials chicken for Billy, Chumley, Ming Loy, and Flowerbelle
Note: Ming Loy walked away from the bowl again! She was not going to eat it. I think she's sick of lamb. I gave her the S&C Shel didn't eat, and she ate with gusto LOL.
S&C chicken rehydrated for Shelly and Tuxedo.

Laz only ate a little of the NV lamb, and Shel ate a quarter ounce of S&C chicken (rehydrated). So I swapped their bowls, and Shel at about half an ounce of the NV lamb, and Lazlo ate about a half an ounce of the S&C chicken rehydrated.

I'll figure out tomorrow what their percentages of raw vs canned were.

Poop-O-Meter report: Everything seems back to normal. No signs of diarrhea or mucous so far! If it stays this way, it HAD to be those turkey treats.

OK... Lazlo woke us frequently for WL chicken throughout the night. The frequency with which he's asking for food is calming down a bit. But at least he's back eating again, and smell doesn't seem to be as big a problem. I think we're over the hump from the chemo treatment, and I doubt he'll need another dose of the app stimulant.

Breakfast 2/8/2012 Wednesday

Lazlo had NV lamb
Shel & Tux had cut up chicken thigh
Spooky had 75% NV lamb and 25% VE chicken
Flowerbelle had 25% NV lamb and 75% VE chicken
Billy, Ming Loy, and Chumley had 100% VE chicken

Laz and Tux each ate about a half ounce of raw. Flowerbelle ate 0.25 oz. (She seems to generally eat in 1/4 ounce portions, but I couldn't convince her to eat more raw). So I plopped Wellness turkey & salmon on top of their raw.

Total Breakfast Intake:

Lazlo 1.03 oz
Shel 2.0 oz (He ate his 1.5 oz of chicken thigh and the half ounce Tuxie didn't finish LOL).
Tux 1.01 oz
Spooky 1.00 oz
Flowerbelle 0.52 oz

OK.... since all is well on the poop front, I decided to introduce the Primal turkey. It was at about 20% to the NV chicken at 80%.

Spooky didn't eat any despite toppers, so I broke out the Wellness chicken. She still didn't eat much.
Laz only ate 1/3 of an ounce of raw. I added the canned - and then he finished up most of the raw and ate very little of the canned!
Shel ate almost all of his raw (an ounce), then almost an ounce of canned.
Flowerbelle only ate the raw. I offered her canned, she didn't eat any.
Tux ate 50% raw/50% canned.

2/8/2012 Lunch
Lazlo 1.29 oz
Shel 1.81 oz
Tux 1.62 oz
Spooky 0.20 oz
Flowerbelle 0.52 oz