Another peeing problem! Diabetic kitty

Max part siamese has diabeties. Found out last week weighs 12 pounds. His twin a tabby weighs 22 pounds and is not diabetic.  He is on lantus twice a day, 3 units each time.Max was peeing on any rug, took these away and now pees right outside his litter box on the rubber mat. Even if the box is clean. Have given him another litter box with feline pine. Has not even looked inside. We are waiting for the curve at Vets next week.

Any ideas of how to manage this? I have put cookie aluminuim sheets under the mats.Why will he suddenly do this though it is better than the rugs?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I joined the board today.

Also he is very thirsty since starting the insulin hence peeing more. Does that mean he may need more insulin or less insulin?

His number was 625 when we found out last week he was diabetic.

Any help greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Sandy

Hi Sandy and welcome to TCS!

I've asked that a moderator move your post to its own thread so that people can see it better and respond to your question.

Sandy, welcome to TCS. I moved your post to the health forum because this appears to be health related rather than behavioral. You also have your own thread now instead of tacking onto an existing thread.

Sorry, I really don't know much about feline diabetes. There will be others who have more experience with it.
for Max. Hope you can get the diabetes under control soon.

Welcome to TCS - I hope very soon some other member's will find this thread and offer some suggestions for you on how to manage feline diabetes. I am sorry you are going through this and poor Max too. :rub: Sending many vibes for you to get some answer's. :cross:

Welcome to TCS!  I don't know anything about diabetes, but as I mentioned to another recent poster, in order to stop a cat from peeing in the same spot (the rug in front of the litter box) you need to remove that rug and clean it thoroughly with an enzyme cleaner like Nok Out.  Just putting a cookie sheet under the mat won't remove the smell from the mat, although it should help protect your floor .  BTW, depending on what your actual floor is made of, it's possible the smell has even soaked into the floor, so you might need to treat it as well.  I'm surprised Max's brother doesn't pee there also.

Hoping someone who is familiar with feline diabetes will come along soon and answer your other questions.

pasons said:

Also he is very thirsty since starting the insulin hence peeing more. Does that mean he may need more insulin or less insulin?

His number was 625 when we found out last week he was diabetic.

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Hi Sandy,

Sorry to hear about the diabetes diagnosis. Been there, done that! My kitty, Aztec, has been diabetic for 9 years, and at almost 19 yrs old now, he's still going strong.

Couple things: that 3u 2x/day is a rather large starting dose. Most cats start out at 1u bid, at most 2u. What if Max's ideal dose is less than 3u? Then you've already overshot the mark and it will take so much longer to figure that out. Much better to start low and slowly work your way up. If the dose is too high, Somogyi rebound is likely to occur, which means big swings in blood glucose (and symptoms like increased drinking/urination, making it look like it isn't enough insulin). Hypoglycemia also becomes a very deadly risk.

What was Max eating, and what does he eat now? (brand, flavour, wet or dry?)

The peeing outside the box is likely due to the high volume that Max is peeing right now. In the litter box, it pools around his feet and he doesn't like it. I found switching to Yesterday's News paper pellet litter prevented the pee pools and Aztec much preferred that. Not all cats like the texture though. Make sure the box is super clean, and consider adding a couple more boxes until Max's diabetes is under better control.

Some links you should really check out, if you haven't already:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Low-carb_diet

http://www.felinediabetes.com/bg-home-test.htm

I also had a diabetic cat ...when his BG became stable  the large amounts of urine also stablized...When he feels better...this should stop...

On a side note there are message boards dedicated just for feline diabetes...they saved my cats life btw...When I found them my cat was on22 units of caninsulin..they told me he was getting way to much and encourgaged me to bascily start over and start home testing DAILY...doing my own curves every week...In the end my cat had a MAX dose of 4 to5 units of caninsulin..They saved his life and saved me tons of money ...Just wanted to let you know that ....

http://www.felinediabetes.com/

Thankyou so much for your help. Really kind. I left a old shallow pan out with cat litter and he is going in that. He will not now go in the enclosed pan.The vet put him on 3 units a day till the curve next week.

I phoned the vet and he does not want me to change the insulin.

Should I start testing myself?

Our problem is that I have to go overseas in 2 weeks and so does my husband leaving the cat to my son who often works over 14 hours a day. With all the drinking and the peeing we would need endless pans. We will be gone 4 weeks. Will it matter if he does not get his shot for 14 hours?

Also he seems worse on the insulin peeing and drinking more.

Thanks so much for helping

Sandy

pasons said:

I phoned the vet and he does not want me to change the insulin.

Should I start testing myself?

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Many people have long or erratic work schedules and don't do exact 12hr dosing. The only potential problem is that the next shot might be at +10 hrs, and there could be some overlap issues. That's another reason to home-test. If kitty's bg hasn't come up enough at the 10 hr mark, adding more insulin could be risky. Giving less insulin at that time could be one alternative if your son doesn't want to home-test. 

One thing you haven't mentioned yet is Max's diet. This is a very important piece of the puzzle. A great many cats actually go into remission once they've been switched from a high-carb dry diet (the cause of most cases of diabetes) to a low-carb wet one. I wouldn't do the switch while he's getting the whopping dose of 3u bid, or without home-testing, but that's something to eventually consider.

The fact that he's drinking and peeing more now that he's on insulin is very concerning. Did your vet tell you what signs to look for in case Max becomes hypoglycemic? Did he tell you how to treat it?

Max is on Hills w/d tin and biscuits as he only weighs 12pounds but his twin is 22 pounds and on a diet though he is not diabetic.What do I need to buy from CVS pharmacy to do this testing on his ear? I really appreciate your help. He hates going to the vet but they did a urine test and blood work and he was over 600.

He is drinking non stop especially after is shot.

Thanks

Sandy

pasons said:

Max is on Hills w/d tin and biscuits as he only weighs 12pounds but his twin is 22 pounds and on a diet though he is not diabetic.What do I need to buy from CVS pharmacy to do this testing on his ear? I really appreciate your help. He hates going to the vet but they did a urine test and blood work and he was over 600.

He is drinking non stop especially after is shot.

Thanks

Sandy

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W/D is one of the worst diets for a diabetic (extremely high in carbs - the dry is 37% carb calories, the canned is 26%. Cats should be eating less than 10%). Has he been on this for a while, or did the vet just switch him because of the diabetes? Back in the "old days", vets would prescribe W/D thinking that the high fibre would help slow glucose absorption. Doesn't work that way for cats, who actually need high protein and low carb. W/D makes diabetes worse. My advice would be to switch both your cats over to a grain-free wet food like Wellness, Nature's Variety, By Nature, Weruva, Merrick, etc, and ditch the dry completely. BUT, you absolutely have to drop that insulin dose and start home-testing if you do. I would go down to no more than 1u bid. There's a very good chance that if you do that, Max will be able to come off exogenous insulin. Here's an excellent link explaining the relationship of diet and diabetes: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

As for a glucometer to try, lots of people use the Freestyle monitors with great results. I've used a few different brands over the years and as long as it's used consistently, it doesn't really matter what kind it is. I think in some cases if you buy 100 test strips, you get the glucometer for free. You'll also need a lancet device (I like the pen style ones) and some lancets. 

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty. He has biscuits and cans. Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called? I am so worried. Walgreen also is nearby.

Thanks Sandy

pasons said:

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty.

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Your vet is not at all up-to-date on treating feline diabetes. Max's increased drinking/peeing can quite likely be explained by the switch to W/D, combined with too much insulin. Despite what your vet thinks, it's imperative that you stop feeding W/D and drop that insulin dose. All the current literature, as well as the experience of thousands and thousands of diabetic cat owners, indicates that cats need a high protein, low carb diet. That is not what W/D is. Switching to a low carb WET diet (no more kibble) will not only help Max go into possible remission, but will help his brother lose weight and prevent him from getting diabetes as well. You don't need your vet's permission to do this. Please learn as much as you can about feline diabetes from those links I gave you, and if your vet won't work with you on this (and hopefully learn something along the way), find a better one.

pasons said:

 Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called?

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One of the cheaper (but still reliable) blood glucose testing meters (aka glucometer) is the Relion, which you can get at Walmart. Just ask the pharmacist. They can also provide you with lancets, etc. Do you get your insulin and syringes from the vet or the pharmacy? It's much cheaper from a pharmacy, although I think in the U.S. you need a prescription. Your vet should write you prescription if you ask for it (sometimes they charge a small fee). If not, find another vet.

Some other decent glucometer brands:

FreeStyle

One Touch

Accu-Chek

Bayer

Sugarcatmom said:

pasons said:

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty.

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Your vet is not at all up-to-date on treating feline diabetes. Max's increased drinking/peeing can quite likely be explained by the switch to W/D, combined with too much insulin. Despite what your vet thinks, it's imperative that you stop feeding W/D and drop that insulin dose. All the current literature, as well as the experience of thousands and thousands of diabetic cat owners, indicates that cats need a high protein, low carb diet. That is not what W/D is. Switching to a low carb WET diet (no more kibble) will not only help Max go into possible remission, but will help his brother lose weight and prevent him from getting diabetes as well. You don't need your vet's permission to do this. Please learn as much as you can about feline diabetes from those links I gave you, and if your vet won't work with you on this (and hopefully learn something along the way), find a better one.

pasons said:

 Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called?

Click to expand...

One of the cheaper (but still reliable) blood glucose testing meters (aka glucometer) is the Relion, which you can get at Walmart. Just ask the pharmacist. They can also provide you with lancets, etc. Do you get your insulin and syringes from the vet or the pharmacy? It's much cheaper from a pharmacy, although I think in the U.S. you need a prescription. Your vet should write you prescription if you ask for it (sometimes they charge a small fee). If not, find another vet.



Some other decent glucometer brands:


FreeStyle


One Touch


Accu-Chek


Bayer

Click to expand...

Caring for ones companion animals is a very serious responsibility, and often, in light of that concern, members will create threads seeking information from other members. While we allow and encourage expression of opinions and the recounting of personal experiences, it is the forum's official position that no online advice can ever supercede or replace the care and advice of trained medical professionals who have first hand knowledge of the individual animal's condition. We strongly urge members to refrain from advocating the practice of ignoring medical advice

I am off to buy this othe cat food. I started the cat food the same time as the shots 2 weeks ago.

The vet wants to do a curve for a day on monday. He says on the phone the cat may ned more insulin. He was 625 After that we are changing vets to one that has a animal hospital if needed and will do shots  if needs be.I am on a crucial time scedule as I go overseas in 2 weeks 

I do not know yet if I can handle pricking his ear but will buy the kit. Which is the eassiest to use. I am trying to learn as much as I can on feline diabetes. I am only now getting comfortable with sticking the insulin in I cannot thank you all enough for all your help.

Sandy

I am trying to learn so much about Felinew Diabetes. Thankyou for the input about W/D. Am off to buy the other types of cat food.Max has been on the W/D since starting the shots 2 weeks now.

The vet wants to do a curve on monday. Will this really help? After what I have read though the cat will be so stressed out it will be high anyway. I am seeing another vet next week after I get all the papers on monday. This vet also has boarding and is a animal hospital.

At the moment I do not feel happy about trying to prick his ear. Once the vet shows me that may make it easier though I will buy the kit. Which is the easiest to use? It has taken me over two weeks to try to get used to shooting the insulin.

The vet also said that the dose was low for a cat with 625. Shall I try going down or wait 'till monday?

At my wits end as Max is not hiimself now.

Thanks

Sandy

When I reply, do all the answers see my reply or just the person I click reply to? I have to send the same answer to everyone?

Thanks for your help. Sandy

We all see your reply. The only way to keep it private is if you send a person a PM (personal message).

pasons said:

I am trying to learn so much about Felinew Diabetes. Thankyou for the input about W/D. Am off to buy the other types of cat food.Max has been on the W/D since starting the shots 2 weeks now.

Click to expand...

pasons said:

The vet wants to do a curve on monday. Will this really help? After what I have read though the cat will be so stressed out it will be high anyway. 

Click to expand...

Depends on Max. Does he get stressed at the vets? Most cats do, and it can indeed affect blood glucose levels (called stress hyperglycemia). The other problem is that when a cat is in a cage at the vets all day, it's not going about its normal routine, which can also impact the results. The cat doesn't eat when it normally does, or maybe not as much (if at all), or maybe more than it would at home. A curve done at home where the cat is comfortable and doing what it normally does is going to much more accurate. And cheaper!

pasons said:

At the moment I do not feel happy about trying to prick his ear. Once the vet shows me that may make it easier though I will buy the kit. 

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I hear ya. It can be a daunting prospect. Took me many tries to get the hang of it, but now I can do it in my sleep. Not all vets know how to do it either though, and some even discourage it. Don't let that stop you. Here are some great tips and videos that should help: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

One other thing: there are a couple of animal-specific glucometers that some vets sell, but you don't have to use those. The human ones work just fine, are way cheaper, and it's easier to get the test strips. Some of the manufacturers of the human glucometers saw a way to cash in on diabetic pet owners who were using them and have been marketing the animal ones to vets as being more accurate. They aren't. 

pasons said:

Which is the easiest to use? 

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Really, they're all pretty easy. As long as it uses sipping test strips (and I think pretty much all the meters do these days) and a small amount of blood, you should be fine. Some require coding and some don't, so maybe get one that doesn't require it if you want (coding is just entering a number into the meter to match the batch of test strips that you bought). 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons  


It has taken me over two weeks to try to get used to shooting the insulin.

I know how you feel. It does get easier, I promise. And with any luck, Max can go into remission and you won't have to keep giving him shots forever. Some info for you on how the combination of Lantus and a low-carb diet can resolve diabetes in cats: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19592286

Do you have any Ketostix or Keto-Diastix for testing ketones in Max's urine? Did the vet give you info on hypoglycemia? 

Tthe vet is not tell me about urine testing, when I asked he said it was not accurate. I cannot thank you enough for your help.

When he was diagnozed 2 weeks ago he was put on W/D tins and a few biscuits and the 3 unites 2 x a day. He does seem more lethargic and not himself at all. Monday is the day for the curve but will buy the kit and hope that we will learn how to do it. I sa on u tube a video on how to do it on one of the sites. Have read up on hypoglemia and Max is still eating and drinking a lot and running around biut not playful at all. Look so sad.

Once again thanks for your help.

Sandy