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Another peeing problem! Diabetic kitty

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

Max part siamese has diabeties. Found out last week weighs 12 pounds. His twin a tabby weighs 22 pounds and is not diabetic.  He is on lantus twice a day, 3 units each time.Max was peeing on any rug, took these away and now pees right outside his litter box on the rubber mat. Even if the box is clean. Have given him another litter box with feline pine. Has not even looked inside. We are waiting for the curve at Vets next week.

Any ideas of how to manage this? I have put cookie aluminuim sheets under the mats.Why will he suddenly do this though it is better than the rugs?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I joined the board today.

Also he is very thirsty since starting the insulin hence peeing more. Does that mean he may need more insulin or less insulin?

His number was 625 when we found out last week he was diabetic.

Any help greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Sandy

post #2 of 31
Hi Sandy and welcome to TCS!

I've asked that a moderator move your post to its own thread so that people can see it better and respond to your question.
post #3 of 31
Sandy, welcome to TCS. I moved your post to the health forum because this appears to be health related rather than behavioral. You also have your own thread now instead of tacking onto an existing thread.

Sorry, I really don't know much about feline diabetes. There will be others who have more experience with it.
vibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif for Max. Hope you can get the diabetes under control soon.
post #4 of 31
Welcome to TCS - I hope very soon some other member's will find this thread and offer some suggestions for you on how to manage feline diabetes. I am sorry you are going through this and poor Max too. rub.gifhugs.gif Sending many vibes for you to get some answer's. cross.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gifvibes.gif
post #5 of 31

Welcome to TCS!  I don't know anything about diabetes, but as I mentioned to another recent poster, in order to stop a cat from peeing in the same spot (the rug in front of the litter box) you need to remove that rug and clean it thoroughly with an enzyme cleaner like Nok Out.  Just putting a cookie sheet under the mat won't remove the smell from the mat, although it should help protect your floor wink.gif.  BTW, depending on what your actual floor is made of, it's possible the smell has even soaked into the floor, so you might need to treat it as well.  I'm surprised Max's brother doesn't pee there also.

 

Hoping someone who is familiar with feline diabetes will come along soon and answer your other questions.

post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Also he is very thirsty since starting the insulin hence peeing more. Does that mean he may need more insulin or less insulin?

His number was 625 when we found out last week he was diabetic.

 


Hi Sandy,

Sorry to hear about the diabetes diagnosis. Been there, done that! My kitty, Aztec, has been diabetic for 9 years, and at almost 19 yrs old now, he's still going strong.

 

Couple things: that 3u 2x/day is a rather large starting dose. Most cats start out at 1u bid, at most 2u. What if Max's ideal dose is less than 3u? Then you've already overshot the mark and it will take so much longer to figure that out. Much better to start low and slowly work your way up. If the dose is too high, Somogyi rebound is likely to occur, which means big swings in blood glucose (and symptoms like increased drinking/urination, making it look like it isn't enough insulin). Hypoglycemia also becomes a very deadly risk.

 

What was Max eating, and what does he eat now? (brand, flavour, wet or dry?)

 

The peeing outside the box is likely due to the high volume that Max is peeing right now. In the litter box, it pools around his feet and he doesn't like it. I found switching to Yesterday's News paper pellet litter prevented the pee pools and Aztec much preferred that. Not all cats like the texture though. Make sure the box is super clean, and consider adding a couple more boxes until Max's diabetes is under better control.

 

Some links you should really check out, if you haven't already:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Low-carb_diet

http://www.felinediabetes.com/bg-home-test.htm

 

post #7 of 31

I also had a diabetic cat ...when his BG became stable  the large amounts of urine also stablized...When he feels better...this should stop...

On a side note there are message boards dedicated just for feline diabetes...they saved my cats life btw...When I found them my cat was on22 units of caninsulin..they told me he was getting way to much and encourgaged me to bascily start over and start home testing DAILY...doing my own curves every week...In the end my cat had a MAX dose of 4 to5 units of caninsulin..They saved his life and saved me tons of money ...Just wanted to let you know that ....

http://www.felinediabetes.com/

post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thankyou so much for your help. Really kind. I left a old shallow pan out with cat litter and he is going in that. He will not now go in the enclosed pan.The vet put him on 3 units a day till the curve next week.

I phoned the vet and he does not want me to change the insulin.

Should I start testing myself?

 

Our problem is that I have to go overseas in 2 weeks and so does my husband leaving the cat to my son who often works over 14 hours a day. With all the drinking and the peeing we would need endless pans. We will be gone 4 weeks. Will it matter if he does not get his shot for 14 hours?

 

Also he seems worse on the insulin peeing and drinking more.

 

Thanks so much for helping

 

Sandy

 

 

 

 

post #9 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

I phoned the vet and he does not want me to change the insulin.

Should I start testing myself?

 

 

 

You absolutely should start testing Max's blood glucose (bg) yourself, his life could depend on it. If your child was diabetic, there's no way in hell you'd be injecting insulin without first knowing if it was safe to do so. No different for a cat. Vets tend to be rather unsupportive of home-testing, for a few different reasons (loss of income, lack of control, uneducated), but the fact is that Max is YOUR cat, your responsibility, and diabetes, whether in a human or a cat, is a home-managed condition. 

 

If you need any tips or tricks to help you get started with testing, let me know. There can be a bit of steep learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, I guarantee it's hand's down the most valuable tool you'll have in your diabetes treatment arsenal. Plus, it will save you a ton of money on vet visits, and the results will be more accurate than the tests done at the vet (which are often falsely elevated due to stress hyperglycemia). 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Will it matter if he does not get his shot for 14 hours?

 

 

Many people have long or erratic work schedules and don't do exact 12hr dosing. The only potential problem is that the next shot might be at +10 hrs, and there could be some overlap issues. That's another reason to home-test. If kitty's bg hasn't come up enough at the 10 hr mark, adding more insulin could be risky. Giving less insulin at that time could be one alternative if your son doesn't want to home-test. 

 

One thing you haven't mentioned yet is Max's diet. This is a very important piece of the puzzle. A great many cats actually go into remission once they've been switched from a high-carb dry diet (the cause of most cases of diabetes) to a low-carb wet one. I wouldn't do the switch while he's getting the whopping dose of 3u bid, or without home-testing, but that's something to eventually consider.

 

The fact that he's drinking and peeing more now that he's on insulin is very concerning. Did your vet tell you what signs to look for in case Max becomes hypoglycemic? Did he tell you how to treat it?

post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 

Max is on Hills w/d tin and biscuits as he only weighs 12pounds but his twin is 22 pounds and on a diet though he is not diabetic.What do I need to buy from CVS pharmacy to do this testing on his ear? I really appreciate your help. He hates going to the vet but they did a urine test and blood work and he was over 600.

He is drinking non stop especially after is shot.

Thanks

Sandy

post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Max is on Hills w/d tin and biscuits as he only weighs 12pounds but his twin is 22 pounds and on a diet though he is not diabetic.What do I need to buy from CVS pharmacy to do this testing on his ear? I really appreciate your help. He hates going to the vet but they did a urine test and blood work and he was over 600.

He is drinking non stop especially after is shot.

Thanks

Sandy



W/D is one of the worst diets for a diabetic (extremely high in carbs - the dry is 37% carb calories, the canned is 26%. Cats should be eating less than 10%). Has he been on this for a while, or did the vet just switch him because of the diabetes? Back in the "old days", vets would prescribe W/D thinking that the high fibre would help slow glucose absorption. Doesn't work that way for cats, who actually need high protein and low carb. W/D makes diabetes worse. My advice would be to switch both your cats over to a grain-free wet food like Wellness, Nature's Variety, By Nature, Weruva, Merrick, etc, and ditch the dry completely. BUT, you absolutely have to drop that insulin dose and start home-testing if you do. I would go down to no more than 1u bid. There's a very good chance that if you do that, Max will be able to come off exogenous insulin. Here's an excellent link explaining the relationship of diet and diabetes: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

 

As for a glucometer to try, lots of people use the Freestyle monitors with great results. I've used a few different brands over the years and as long as it's used consistently, it doesn't really matter what kind it is. I think in some cases if you buy 100 test strips, you get the glucometer for free. You'll also need a lancet device (I like the pen style ones) and some lancets. 

post #12 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty. He has biscuits and cans. Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called? I am so worried. Walgreen also is nearby.

Thanks Sandy

post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty.

 

Your vet is not at all up-to-date on treating feline diabetes. Max's increased drinking/peeing can quite likely be explained by the switch to W/D, combined with too much insulin. Despite what your vet thinks, it's imperative that you stop feeding W/D and drop that insulin dose. All the current literature, as well as the experience of thousands and thousands of diabetic cat owners, indicates that cats need a high protein, low carb diet. That is not what W/D is. Switching to a low carb WET diet (no more kibble) will not only help Max go into possible remission, but will help his brother lose weight and prevent him from getting diabetes as well. You don't need your vet's permission to do this. Please learn as much as you can about feline diabetes from those links I gave you, and if your vet won't work with you on this (and hopefully learn something along the way), find a better one.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

 Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called?

 

One of the cheaper (but still reliable) blood glucose testing meters (aka glucometer) is the Relion, which you can get at Walmart. Just ask the pharmacist. They can also provide you with lancets, etc. Do you get your insulin and syringes from the vet or the pharmacy? It's much cheaper from a pharmacy, although I think in the U.S. you need a prescription. Your vet should write you prescription if you ask for it (sometimes they charge a small fee). If not, find another vet.

 

Some other decent glucometer brands:

FreeStyle

One Touch

Accu-Chek

Bayer


 

 

post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarcatmom View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Thnaks for the help. Max has been on W/D for 2 weeks and insulin for 2 weeks by the vet.  He is constantly hungry and thirsty.

 

Your vet is not at all up-to-date on treating feline diabetes. Max's increased drinking/peeing can quite likely be explained by the switch to W/D, combined with too much insulin. Despite what your vet thinks, it's imperative that you stop feeding W/D and drop that insulin dose. All the current literature, as well as the experience of thousands and thousands of diabetic cat owners, indicates that cats need a high protein, low carb diet. That is not what W/D is. Switching to a low carb WET diet (no more kibble) will not only help Max go into possible remission, but will help his brother lose weight and prevent him from getting diabetes as well. You don't need your vet's permission to do this. Please learn as much as you can about feline diabetes from those links I gave you, and if your vet won't work with you on this (and hopefully learn something along the way), find a better one.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

 Where do I buy the testing kit? At CVS? What is it exactly called?

 

One of the cheaper (but still reliable) blood glucose testing meters (aka glucometer) is the Relion, which you can get at Walmart. Just ask the pharmacist. They can also provide you with lancets, etc. Do you get your insulin and syringes from the vet or the pharmacy? It's much cheaper from a pharmacy, although I think in the U.S. you need a prescription. Your vet should write you prescription if you ask for it (sometimes they charge a small fee). If not, find another vet.

 

Some other decent glucometer brands:

FreeStyle

One Touch

Accu-Chek

Bayer


 

 



Caring for ones companion animals is a very serious responsibility, and often, in light of that concern, members will create threads seeking information from other members. While we allow and encourage expression of opinions and the recounting of personal experiences, it is the forum's official position that no online advice can ever supercede or replace the care and advice of trained medical professionals who have first hand knowledge of the individual animal's condition. We strongly urge members to refrain from advocating the practice of ignoring medical advice
post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 

I am off to buy this othe cat food. I started the cat food the same time as the shots 2 weeks ago.

 

The vet wants to do a curve for a day on monday. He says on the phone the cat may ned more insulin. He was 625 After that we are changing vets to one that has a animal hospital if needed and will do shots  if needs be.I am on a crucial time scedule as I go overseas in 2 weeks 

 

I do not know yet if I can handle pricking his ear but will buy the kit. Which is the eassiest to use. I am trying to learn as much as I can on feline diabetes. I am only now getting comfortable with sticking the insulin in I cannot thank you all enough for all your help.

Sandy

post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 

I am trying to learn so much about Felinew Diabetes. Thankyou for the input about W/D. Am off to buy the other types of cat food.Max has been on the W/D since starting the shots 2 weeks now.

 

The vet wants to do a curve on monday. Will this really help? After what I have read though the cat will be so stressed out it will be high anyway. I am seeing another vet next week after I get all the papers on monday. This vet also has boarding and is a animal hospital.

 

At the moment I do not feel happy about trying to prick his ear. Once the vet shows me that may make it easier though I will buy the kit. Which is the easiest to use? It has taken me over two weeks to try to get used to shooting the insulin.

 

The vet also said that the dose was low for a cat with 625. Shall I try going down or wait 'till monday?

 

At my wits end as Max is not hiimself now.

 

Thanks

Sandy

post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 

When I reply, do all the answers see my reply or just the person I click reply to? I have to send the same answer to everyone?

 

Thanks for your help. Sandy

post #18 of 31
We all see your reply. The only way to keep it private is if you send a person a PM (personal message).
post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

I am trying to learn so much about Felinew Diabetes. Thankyou for the input about W/D. Am off to buy the other types of cat food.Max has been on the W/D since starting the shots 2 weeks now.

 

 

If you change his food, it's extremely important that the insulin dose be lowered at the same time. High carb foods require higher doses of insulin and if you lower the carbs without lowering the insulin, you could send Max into a hypoglycemic episode. This is where home-testing is so awesome - you'd be able to see for yourself, rather than just guessing, the relationship between Max's diet and his blood glucose levels. It's truly the only way to know when it's safe (and more importantly, when it isn't) to give him insulin.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

The vet wants to do a curve on monday. Will this really help? After what I have read though the cat will be so stressed out it will be high anyway. 

 

Depends on Max. Does he get stressed at the vets? Most cats do, and it can indeed affect blood glucose levels (called stress hyperglycemia). The other problem is that when a cat is in a cage at the vets all day, it's not going about its normal routine, which can also impact the results. The cat doesn't eat when it normally does, or maybe not as much (if at all), or maybe more than it would at home. A curve done at home where the cat is comfortable and doing what it normally does is going to much more accurate. And cheaper!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

At the moment I do not feel happy about trying to prick his ear. Once the vet shows me that may make it easier though I will buy the kit. 


I hear ya. It can be a daunting prospect. Took me many tries to get the hang of it, but now I can do it in my sleep. Not all vets know how to do it either though, and some even discourage it. Don't let that stop you. Here are some great tips and videos that should help: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

 

One other thing: there are a couple of animal-specific glucometers that some vets sell, but you don't have to use those. The human ones work just fine, are way cheaper, and it's easier to get the test strips. Some of the manufacturers of the human glucometers saw a way to cash in on diabetic pet owners who were using them and have been marketing the animal ones to vets as being more accurate. They aren't. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Which is the easiest to use? 


Really, they're all pretty easy. As long as it uses sipping test strips (and I think pretty much all the meters do these days) and a small amount of blood, you should be fine. Some require coding and some don't, so maybe get one that doesn't require it if you want (coding is just entering a number into the meter to match the batch of test strips that you bought). 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

It has taken me over two weeks to try to get used to shooting the insulin.

 

 

I know how you feel. It does get easier, I promise. And with any luck, Max can go into remission and you won't have to keep giving him shots forever. Some info for you on how the combination of Lantus and a low-carb diet can resolve diabetes in cats: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19592286

 

Do you have any Ketostix or Keto-Diastix for testing ketones in Max's urine? Did the vet give you info on hypoglycemia? 

 

 

 

 

 

post #20 of 31
Thread Starter 

Tthe vet is not tell me about urine testing, when I asked he said it was not accurate. I cannot thank you enough for your help.

 

When he was diagnozed 2 weeks ago he was put on W/D tins and a few biscuits and the 3 unites 2 x a day. He does seem more lethargic and not himself at all. Monday is the day for the curve but will buy the kit and hope that we will learn how to do it. I sa on u tube a video on how to do it on one of the sites. Have read up on hypoglemia and Max is still eating and drinking a lot and running around biut not playful at all. Look so sad.

 

Once again thanks for your help.

 

Sandy

 

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 

Sorry where do i get these testing sticks for the urine? Thanks a million

Sandy

post #22 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thanks at least I do not have to type everyonme a separate reply.

 

You are all so helpful

Thanks

Sandy

post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Sorry where do i get these testing sticks for the urine? 


 

From any pharmacy. They stock them behind the counter, so you'll have to ask the pharmacist. Ketostix test just the ketone levels in the urine, where as Keto-Diastix test for both ketones and glucose. You mostly want to focus on the ketones, which can lead to a life-threatening condition called keto-acidosis. One thing that's helpful about testing urine for glucose if you aren't home-testing bgs, is if you start getting negative tests (so no glucose present in the urine). That means blood glucose has been below the renal threshold since the last time the cat peed (somewhere around 240-290 mg/dL). This is when you might want to be careful that you aren't giving too much insulin. So urine testing does have it's place. Another tool in the toolbox.  

post #24 of 31
Thread Starter 

We bought the relion tester and after at least 10 pricks my husband managed to get some blood. We had just fed him. His reading if we did it right was 600 on the human mewter.It said high. On the vets it was 625 without the insulin. This was at 6pm.

We are going to test thim an hour after his insulin about 9pm and try again before we go to bed. Is that the right times to test?

 

We are of course worried with a 600 reading.

 

I really appreciate all your help. We have stopped the W/D and on the grain free wellness chicken formula. Seems my husband was giving him the W/D biscuits.

 

Once again thanks, just so worried.

 

Sandy

post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

We bought the relion tester and after at least 10 pricks my husband managed to get some blood. 

 

Woohoo!!! Congratulations! Not sure if you rubbed or warmed up the ear first for a few minutes but that will really help make it easier to get a drop of blood. I use a thin old sock filled partially with uncooked rice (a knot tied in the end). I heat it in the microwave for about 30 secs (time will vary depending on the microwave and the amount of rice in the sock) to make it warm but not too hot. You'll find it awkward at first, but try to enclose Max's ear in the sock for a few secs at a time, like this: wrap the ear, then remove sock and give him pets, then wrap the ear again, then remove and pet (and rub the ear too, to get him used to it being handled), and repeat until you feel the ear is nice and warm and you can even see the little vein that runs along the edge of it. 

 

Also try using the lancet device on a deeper setting at first. You can eventually dial it down to something shallower later once the blood starts coming easier. And make sure to press it firmly against the ear, with a folded tissue as backing on the other side of the ear to prevent the lancet from going through and getting your finger. After you get the blood sucked up in the test strip, press the tissue over the poked spot and hold it there for a few seconds to minimize bruising. 
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

We are going to test thim an hour after his insulin about 9pm and try again before we go to bed. Is that the right times to test?


The ideal times to test are generally just before you give insulin, and then some spot checks around the +3 (3 hours after insulin), +6 (6 hours after insulin) and +9 (9 hours after insulin). But you don't have to do all those spot checks on the same day, especially when you're just getting the hang of testing. One day get a +3 reading, the next day +6, and so on. Log all the numbers that you get in a notebook, with the date, the amount and time of insulin, and what/when Max ate. I also like to keep track of the number of times kitty pees a day and how much he drinks (measure out a specific amount of water twice a day, say 2 cups, and then poor what's left back into the measuring cup after 12 hrs and subtract it from the original amount). 

 

When you get more comfortable testing, you can try doing your own curve at home. That would typically mean testing Max's bg about every 2 hrs, like this:

PS (for preshot)

+2

+4

+6

+8

+10

+12 or PS. 

 

One more important thing about testing: make sure you give Max a small extra special treat after each test, something that he loves and only gets at test-time (and preferably low-carb, like freeze-dried chicken such as Halo Liv-A-Littles or Real Food Toppers). That will help him to learn to love getting tested! My cat purrs the whole time and used to come running when he heard me warming up his rice sock (he's too old to do much running these days). 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

We are of course worried with a 600 reading.

 


Cats are really amazingly tolerant of high bg numbers for much longer than dogs or humans would be. That's not to say that you don't want them coming down soon, but it isn't a race. After gathering more data and trying to figure out a trend, you and your vet will be in a better position to figure out what to do next. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

 

We have stopped the W/D and on the grain free wellness chicken formula. 

 

Okay, just keep a close eye on Max and try to get some tests around +6, give or take, to see how low he might be going. Without the high carbs of the W/D, that insulin dose might have a more profound effect. I'd still be inclined to drop down to no more than 2u. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasons View Post

 

Once again thanks, just so worried.

 

You're doing great!!! Diabetes is a serious, complicated condition, made even more complicated by the fact that our cats can't talk to us and tell us how they feel. But you and your husband are taking the steps required to get Max on the road to recovery. Hang in there!!! Make sure you take time to look after yourself too. Wine and/or chocolate and/or a nice hot bubble bath can really help. rub.gif

post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 

I cannot thank you enough for all your help and info. Very stressful day, the first testing was 594 before insulin. second 6 hours later 250 just did another 8 hours since first shot 450. He is just constantly hungry and wanting food.  My husband is doing all that you said and is getting better. Our cat sitter is coming this evening  to see how all this works,who luckily is a paramedic so hopefully will be able to handle Max when we are both overseas and our son is working out of town.

 

Should I feed him when ever he miows? He looks at me so pitifully.

 

Our curve with the vet is tomorrow and will take all olur paraphanelia with us meters test books etc.

 

Once again you are so kind.

 

Thanks

Sandy

 

 

post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Should I feed him when ever he miows? He looks at me so pitifully.

 

How much is he eating a day? Personally, I would feed him if he's hungry, or at least space out the meals evenly throughout the day if you can. Until Max is better regulated, he can't fully utilize the food he eats and therefore feels hungry all the time. 

 

The fact that he went down to 250 at +6 shows that he's at least having a response to the insulin. I'd be curious to see how fast he's dropping so if you can get a +2 and +4 at some point, that should provide valuable info. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasons View Post

Our curve with the vet is tomorrow and will take all olur paraphanelia with us meters test books etc.

 


Good luck! Let us know how it goes....

 

 

 
post #28 of 31


Double post....

post #29 of 31


Make that a triple! 

 

stickmen_doubleposters_100-100.gif

post #30 of 31

Sandy, how did Max do at the vet's yesterday?

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