Have you ever had rodent ulcers clear on their own?

I've been posting about one of my cats, Taz. She is nine years old and has suffered from rodent ulcers for years. My vet tried to get a culture the first time I brought her in, but was unsuccessful. They haven't tried since. I am told it's an autoimmune issue, and we sometimes get Depo shots (with Clavamox in the beginning, but no Clavamox in over a year). To get a break from the Depo, we've been doing laser treatments - safer, non-invasive, but not helping at all the last three treatments. Taz gets these ulcers every two months at least - she never goes longer than that.

She started having cystitis bouts this month, two in a row with only a week inbetween. She's been on Baytril, and now Clavamox for the cystitis. I'm told it's stress induced, brought on by visits to the vets, naturally! She's never had this before.

So, I cut & pasted the text below from another thread of mine. I'd really like to hear what you think the outcome of not treating the rodent ulcers can be, because we're between a rock and a hard place on this one...

 I'm not an uncaring pet owner, trying to wheedle out of a vet visit - I'm trying to chose the lesser of two evils so my cat can de-stress, relax, and heal. I need help figuring this out! Thanks!! 

 here's the cut & paste, with a little bit of background added;

Taz seems to be doing great - it's nearly impossible for me to tell how well she's urinating due to having two cats & multiple little boxes, but she has a habit of urinating against the sides of the boxes (the other cat doesn't) and she never tries to cover up anything she does in a litter box - how odd is that? - so I can make a good guess as to what is hers. Urine production isn't 100% (based on clump size) but it's a solid 75%. She's super fiesty & playful, it's kinda scary! lol I haven't seen her so engaged in long time. I'm guessing she's lost a little weight based on how lean she looks to me, maybe that's why she has the extra energy. Wouldn't it be something if she's been having blood glucose issues, too, and I didn't know it?

She still has two days on Clavamox to go. I have to decide what to do about her rodent ulcers now. I could bring her in for a quick Depo shot. I don't want to go through the hassle and stress - for me as well as her - of the Atopica right now. (I have talked on another thread how she was prescribed liquid Atopica to try & help her chronic rodent ulcers). Going in for a shot will be stressful for her too, even though it only takes a second. They tell me the stress is what's bringing on these back-to-back cystitis bouts. So is it cruel to wait & watch on the ulcers to avoid more stressful vet visits, or is it cruel to keep bringing her in and having her get full blown cystitis attacks, days apart, then needing to be put on pain/antibiotic meds? I feel I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't - and Taz is the one that suffers. She doesn't seem to know she has rodent ulcers, and my vet says they aren't painful. But what happens if they get too large/deep, and what constitutes "too large and too deep"?

When I was in my regular vet's office a few days ago, she asked how the ulcers looked. They've looked worse in the past, but I can see yellow/white/light colored tissue in the core of one of the ulcers, so it's deep. By the way, they always get that deep, but that's when she gets a shot. I have no idea if it will continue to get deeper. My vet said they can go one of two ways if untreated; they can possibly clear on their own, or get very deep. I'll watch her for a few more days. If they don't get worse, I think I'm going to see what happens if left untreated (hoping with all my might they won't worsen).

Thanks for all your input! Here's a new pic of Taz the other day, feeling better!

Haven't had to deal with Rodent Ulcers before, but I know people that have had success curing them by changing their cat's diet. What does Taz eat now?

She's gorgeous, by the way! Love her big eyes, and I'm a sucker for red-heads.

Thank you! I'm a sucker for red tabbies, they are my favorite. Taz is my first and hasn't let me down - she's as quirky as the ones my friends have had!

I have discussing the possiblilty of food allergies to both my regular vets, and my emergency vet. The cats have been eating kibble only, for years.  (they used to throw up constantly on wet food when they were younger, multiple times a day). For a long the kibble was Purina Naturals. Then I tried Blue Buffalo's Blue Wilderness, thinking because it was grain free and Taz might have a grain allergy. That was recently fed for three months or so. Then I read on Wysong's site how grain free doesn't mean starch free, so I changed to Wysong's dry kibble; Geriatrix and Vitality. A week later (after several visits to the vets for laser treatments for rodent ulcers, four days apart) the first cystitis attack hit. Prior to having the first cystitis attack, the cats were eating only dry kibble. Now they eat only wet food, but they want the kibble too. Since I'm having trouble getting Taz to eat full servings - I think the antibiotics are at fault - I've relented & fed a tablespoon per cat 2x a day of the Wysong kibble.

 My emergency vet suggested a raw food diet, or at least supplementing raw foods as much as possible. My regular vet isn't a raw food fan because she feels it's hard to get a healthy consistant balance for the average pet owner. (she may be right, it's a learning curve!). My emergency vet told me all I had to feed was a butcher's mix (local butcher, if 90 miles round trip is local) that is ground beef & buffalo muscle, organ, and shaved bone, it's antibiotic and hormone free, pasture fed and grain finished. She said to add nothing else, no probiotics, taurine, nothing. Just the meat mix. I can rotate out to a chicken neck grind or even a pork mix on occasion.

 At first the cats (I have two) loved it, then they stopped eating it. At my questioning, my regular vet let me try some Hills C/D bladder health canned food for Taz. My emergency vet didn't make note of the urine's ph at the time of Taz's visit, so my regular vet assumes it is 6. There were no crystals in the urine.

 Right now that's where I stand. I'm having a hard time getting Taz to eat more than a mouthful or two at a time - Zazu thinks she's died & gone to kitty-food heaven. I'm trying any wet, corn/wheat free food I can find, plus the Hill's C/D. It will be interesting to see if Taz's appetite comes back after she stops the Clavamox. I know it can upset her tummy, my regular vet is surprised she isn't throwing up while on it.

 The health food store I bought the bags of Wysong from will take them back, I'm thinking about buying the wet food with the $$ - I have to see what they carry of Wysong's.

 There it is, in a looong nutshell! Basically I've gone from years of all-kibble that is wheat/corn based, to 90% wet, no starch except in treats. I need to get better treats, too. But the change only happened in the last two weeks. I'm hoping it helps her rodent ulcer problems...

On the feline herpes Yahoo group, many folks deal with rodent ulcers.  Some have had good success giving Evening Primrose Oil.

Sophie's had 3 and the first two l took her to the vet where he gave her an antibiotic shot, but the vet said on our second visit that she didn't have to keep going in unless it got huge as they usually just clear up on their own after a few days,  which they did.

Hers were about 2mm dia, but the first couple of days looked the worst, then they started to dry up after that

My Pinky gets them all the time. The best way that I've been able to control them is to be extra diligent on sterilizing the food bowls around here. His seem to flare up similar to how feline acne acts up.

I don't take him to the vet every time he has them, as they typically clear up on their own. I do bring him in when they are large or don't seem to be going away quickly.

Thank you everyone! I'll keep a close eye on it. I've been bringing her in to the vets every time she get one (or two), five to eight times a year! It wasn't until a coworker told me his male cat gets them and he's never brought his cat to the vets since they clear on their own - he didn't think it required vet care - that it even occured to me to ask my vet if they might clear without the Depo. It would be sweet if my cat can fight them off on her own, too, we've never tried.

I want to check out the yahoo groups, but to register it seems I have to change over to a yahoo email addy and I don't want to change. I'll have to see if I'm understanding that correctly...

thank you again!

I'd like to throw out something I found in the latest copy of the Cat Owner's Home Veterinarian Handbook  - kibble's abrasiveness has been linked to oral lesions.

This lines up with an older American Association of Zoo Veterinarians report that examines the relationship between diet and dental health in captive carnivores.

So it may be worth considering a diet change to canned or, better yet, raw, if your cat is experiencing chronic oral lesions.

Best regards.

AC

hey, Auntie Crazy!

 I'm so glad you chimed in, you seem to be a raw food guru!

 I'm all for trying the raw food diet again - I've been interested in it for a while (thinking Taz may have food allergies) but I didn't know where to go for info. My regular vet isn't for it, she says she's more of a 'traditionalist" and she also said it's hard to balance the elements in a raw diet, such as the bone ratio.

When I brought Taz in on the emergency visit, I asked the vet there about BARF. She was all for it, and was excited that I asked about it. She said cats would get all they need from it being obligate carnivores, no extra taurine is needed, no probiotics (I was planning on ordering the supplement sold by Wysong to add such things - extra taurine, probiotics, etc.). She and her husband breed Briards and feed them BARF, and they feed their cat it too since it's on hand. She sent me to a butcher husband & wife team that process their own beef and buffalo that they raise - it's not certified organic (hard cert. to get) but it's USDA antibiotic/hormone free, grass fed & grain finished. They grind the muscle meat and organs, and shave the bone into a powder that's added to the mix. Then they freeze it in 5 lb vacuum packed blocks - and sell it for 89 cents a pound!

Their meat looked so darned good I bought myself two beef roasts and a fresh pork ham - lol. The beef roasts were only $2.85 per pound. I don't know about where you folks live, but that's cheap here. They had a huge beef rib roast crown, looked like ten ribs, for $23.00 total, I wish I bought that too   ; )

 Anyhow, I tried transitioning it into their wet food, a few minced-up bits at a time. That went well, and by the 3rd day they were eating just the meat mix. Since it's such a dense, sticky mass, I add a few teaspoons of warm water to break it up. That makes a pinkish broth. The zombie-like slurping sounds they made when eating was a real turn off, but they loved it and wanted to eat constantly! They would wake me up at 3 - 4 am, jumping on the bed crying for more food - lol

 Well, when Taz started her Atopica (which only was administered for two days because she couldn't tolerate it) the vet said I could put it on her food. No dice. She wouldn't go near it, and she turned her nose up at the meat ever since. To show her support, Zazu decided she wouldn't eat it anymore, either. I don't have a clue why she stopped. As soon as the 5 lb block thawed I divided it up into daily portions and refroze it, so it should be fresh.

 As soon as Taz is off her antibiotics - 2 more days - I'm hoping she'll get her appetite back, and I'll slowly try to reintroduce the meat. I've already tried to do this twice with both cats, and they've eaten the food around the meat and left the meat chunks. Next time I'll mince it into the tiniest of bits and hope it gets eaten by accident. It's so inexpensive, I can do this for a very long time, trying to whet their appetite for it again.

 I told the emergency vet that it never occured to me that cats didn't need the starches and veggies in cat food. I was worried about the fat content of the raw meat, too, and she reminded me that we tend to think of what's healthy or not in terms of human needs & consumption, and that's wrong. I guess the veggies and grains are a cheap filler for the pet food companies...

 If you have any tips or links I should read in regard to raw/Barf feeding, please let me know! 

 ~ Cindy ~

Ok, some thoughts for you and some reading suggestions...

- BARF feeding, as it's typically defined, is a little too bone-heavy to be a cat's diet. The guideline for feline bone percentage is 5 - 10% of the diet, with 7% being the average.

- Variety is almost critical, so you can't feed just beef and buffalo. Studies on wild cats indicate they need at least seven different meat sources for a healthy nutritional profile, 'though it's likely our kitties can get away with five. (I feed various parts of turkey, chicken, duck, rabbit, pork, and beef and, once a week, packed-in-water-no-salt-added sardines, live crickets, and in rotation every week, either chicken egg yolks or egg whites.)

- Enticements such as Forti Flora or Whole Life's freeze-dried 100% meat treats are very helpful in encouraging a recalcitrant cat to eat.

For new frankenprey feeders, I recommend the articles A Frankenprey / Whole Prey Feeding Guide and Taking the Plunge! from CatCentric.org, as well as the transition guide: Transitioning Your Cat to a Raw Diet from RawFedCats.org.

Good luck! If you have any specific questions, just pop over to the raw-feeding forum and ask 'em.

AC

Thanks for all the good info & links - I'll call the butchers tomorrow & ask the bone percentage in the meat grind. My emergency vet said I could tell if there is too much meat vs. bone if the stools are runny, and if the stools are hard when fresh there is too much bone. She said to adjust accordingly. The butchers alsomake 5 lb. packs of ground whole chicken necks (I think it's just the necks) and I'll ask about that, too. If the cats take to this I can get a meat grinder - the vet recommended one by name but I can't remeber what it is just now. It's in an email she sent me & I'd have to look it up. There is a lady nearby that raise meat & show rabbits - I get free rabbit manure from her for my compost. I personally couldn't butcher them, but I wonder if she would for a fee...

Live crickets cracked me up. In the summer I sometimes get crickets in the house - the cats kill them, but never eat them - that would be free food!

I'll be over at the raw-feeding forum quite a bit, I'm sure. Thanks especially for the treat info - it doesn't make much sense to feed a starch free diet but still feed typical treats all day!

 ~ Cindy ~

I haven't had any luck on my cats' rodent ulcers healing on their own, but then again I never left them a long time without a vet visit... My cat Mr Grey used to get them and he had Depo shots for that and for the lesions on his feet near the ankles, but also when I switched him to a food with no chicken or fish (and no grain but he never had a food with grains) he stopped getting the lip ulcers. He's on Atopica now which has cleared up his foot lesions.

His sister Harlequin had a large lip ulcer recently which did not clear up even after 2 types of steroids and antibiotics (it got bigger instead) it finally did after my vet switched her to oral Dex.

I've also done therapeutic laser treatments but usually in addition to some other treatment so I don't know how effective they were/would be on their own.

Another thing, many times rodent ulcers are stress-related, so keeping the stress to a minimum in your home helps.  You can run feliway diffusers to help with that, too.

I usually use the laser treatments in the weeks after a Depo shot, the thought being it hopefully will help and delay the next needed shot. These last treatments (3 treatments, 4 days apart) didn't have any effect on their own. I can't tell if they didn't work, or if the added stress of repeat trips to the vets counter-acted and negated the postive effects of the laser. The idea was that we were going to do away with the shots and use only the laser. My vets thought (and I agreed) that if I bought Taz in weekly - at minimum - she would "get over" the stress of the vet visit and it wouldn't bother her. Guess I'll never know because I decided I can't put her through it...

Good point on the possible influence of stress - as anyone following my various threads will have noticed, Taz doesn't deal with certain stresses at all.

This is the first time I haven't brought her in to have the ulcers treated, since she's been going through a revolving door at two different vets and meds these last few weeks. I'm trying to give her a break! As a matter of fact, the emergency visit where I had to leave her overnight was the first time in her 9 years that she'd been away from me and left anywhere - for an hour or overnight. I've always been with her during her vet visits.

 She's such an inconsistant cat, she perplexes me. I finally tore our a closet in a room I'm making into the new bedroom - it's a project I put on hold because she was stressed. When I finally couldn't wait any more and did the project, she just sat there in her cat tree napping & occasionally rolling her head around to check the progress - lol. Then of course she had to explore where the closet had been.

I've been paying close attention lately, and I think what stresses her are vets trips, and sadly, Zazu's presence. They spend most of their time at opposite ends of the moblie home I live in (limited space), they do nap together & sleep at night together in/on my bed. By together, I mean on the same bed, not touching one another.

 For the last two days Taz has been very playful - so was Zazu - but today I can't get Taz interested in food. She's eaten a bit, but not much. She's spent most of the day laying about and so has Zazu. I myself have had a blinding headache all day and spent most of it in bed, so who knows, maybe it's the weather...anyhow, I have been watching the ulcers, and they haven't gotton any larger/worse, and a matter of fact they look better today - not as wide or deep. It's marginal, but I hope it's a trend.

 I haven't tried Feliway - I can't honestly afford it - but I did buy what is advertised as a similar product, a spray called At Ease by Whisker City. I spray it in the heating vents even, thinking it will disperse through the rooms. I believe it helps, but that may be because I want it to work. The ingredients listed are; blend of fragrance extracts (simulated feline pheormones), sodium lauryl sulfate (1.8%), rosemary (0.8%), thyme (0.8%), and purified water.

I spray it in the cats beds, scratching posts, etc. I even spray it on my blankets, since they sleep in/on my bed every day & night. Hopefull it's really helping.

Unfortunately I can't use Feliway here. I used it in the past on their bedding for cat shows, but one of my cats, Spot, completely freaked out whenever I sprayed it at home (on their bedding.) He would get really upset and act scared of any bedding that it had been sprayed on. It was really weird.

I haven't read all the replies but I wanted to chime in. I came here because my cat Jake also gets rodent ulcers. It started when I moved to California 3 years ago. He is on his 4th rodent ulcer now. The first 2 were nasty. A steroid shot did the trick. The 3rd one was small and cleared up on its own. This 4th one seems to be getting nasty but I'm still going to wait 1-2 days before I take him for another shot, depending on how it looks.

He was a bottle baby and a premie. He was abandoned by his mom day one. He was found in a neighbors yard in July in Las Vegas. He almost died but I raised him and he made it. Tough little guy. So his immune system isn't the best due to being raised on a bottle. Besides his mental weirdness he gets physical issues like the ulcers and UVitis I think it's called. He had that 3 times I think.

Once I switched his bowl from plastic to ceramic he was good. But then I bought a treat maze and he got his 2nd ulcer. The 3rd and 4th ulcers I believe he ate off of plastic. But I'm guessing. I think it's the mat under the bowl or maybe I set a treat on plastic. I'm not sure. His food doesn't seems to be the issue. Also I DO think it hurts them. My vet said the same thing that it doesn't hurt but I disagree. He's extra cranky when the ulcers get bad. He won't let me near it to see it. Usually he loves being pet and scratched under his chin or cheeks. But he is like "back off lady" when he has them. Plus look at it. How can that not hurt? Especially around your mouth and it's moving and stretching the ulcer. Ugh poor kitties. Imagine if that was on our mouths and chin. That would hurt I think.

So if you have any plastic she eats off of maybe try switching to stainless steel or ceramic. And the bowls have to be extra clean as well.

Also I am starting them on a raw food diet as well. I did a ton of research and everyone was talking about a certain Doctor and they use her recipe.

Her website http://catinfo.org has everything plus more. She completely breaks it all down. Makes it way easier for you. I even wrote her and she responded right away.

The supplements she buys from a certain online store. I have an Amazon Prime account so I was able to find everything cheaper there.
I'm thinking with the raw food diet it will help him total body. Also I have an obese cat and have tried everything but she is still is huge. (Started after she was spayed, I think it's a metabolism thing) She will loose weight naturally eating raw though. I'm actually going to start the process tomorrow and I'll post about it when I have them on it 100%.

MOD NOTE:  This thread is a couple of years old and the original posters may not be around any more.

@JaLuYo   We have an active forum here http://www.thecatsite.com/f/65/raw-home-cooked-cat-food about raw and home cooked food.  When you want to update about your cat's transition to raw food, that would be a good place to post it.  

Welcome to TCS.  

betsygee said:

MOD NOTE:  This thread is a couple of years old and the original posters may not be around any more.

@JaLuYo
  We have an active forum here http://www.thecatsite.com/f/65/raw-home-cooked-cat-food about raw and home cooked food.  When you want to update about your cat's transition to raw food, that would be a good place to post it.  

Welcome to TCS.  

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Oops thank you! I will do that