Discussion on breeding Scottish Folds

Quote:

Originally Posted by StefanZ 

  And if you want to be in Scottish folds I suspect you must have such a mentor. They are tricky for an inexperienced breeder, as one parent must be  Scottish striagh or British cat.  (If both parents are scottish folds the kittens dont survive).

Really??!!  I had no idea. Very interesting. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by StefanZ 

Flinch, Honey.

 

 

Forgive us if we were too harsh.   Im sure it was not anyones will to get you feel bad.  OK?   :)

We are sure you  do your outmost so your cats will have a good life - and be your good friends.    :).

 

Of course, if you once upon a time go in for serious breeding, you ARE allowed to take more than one litter. Quite the opposite, you got more and more experience as the time goes on, so take several, by all means!

There is no big point to be a "breeder" and take just only one litter. Unless you are a "sub-breeder" in close cooperation with say, the breeder of this female you will have.  And if you want to be in Scottish folds I suspect you must have such a mentor. They are tricky for an inexperienced breeder, as one parent must be  Scottish Straigh or British cat.  British is allowed into Scottish breeding.. (If both parents are scottish folds the kittens dont survive).

Although if you do have only one queen who also is your home family cat, it will be usually just a litter a year.

 

Good luck and the best wishes!   *vibes*

Yeah I know I was just feeling a little bit of a harshness in some peoples posts was all :) It wasn't aimed at any of you in particular it was just to kind of break the seriousness of the situation somehow to let you all know that it is not too big a deal and although new to cats am not too inexperienced 

I knew that Scottish folds are hard to breed and that is why I wanted to breed them. I kind of had a feeling they would be because they are hard to breed without some struggles with health issues. And worst yet not all the kittens will turn out Scottish folds...usually only one or two of the litter will turn into scottish fold kittens... But that is kind of why I only wanted to breed a couple times because of the fact that they are hard to breed. But again thanks for the information...also I was hoping some people would have some info on scottish folds that would be helpful on this concept. Hence why I brought it up so your comments on this is very helpful thank you 

If you are interested in breeding in the future but only want to have one litter or a few litters I would say the best thing to do (once you find a breed you love and have done research on them and all that) is to find a breeder mentor and look into possibly co-owning a female with them or being an associate breeder possibly. The best way to find a breeder willing to mentor you is what I mentioned in my previous post, get research and experience with the breed such as by getting a good show alter (spayed/neutered purebred to show) as this way the breeder will know you are serious about the breed and you can network with breeders at shows and things. That is what I would do but I am sure there are more experienced people here who would have more info on that.

I wouldn't consider breeding scottish fold at all. Study shows that ALL scottish folds (even the strait-eared folds) suffer from progressive arthritis of varying severity. It's inevitable because the desease is tightly associated with the fold-ear gene. England has long banned the breed and there are vets recommended abandoning the breed entirely. Frankly, I don't hold high respect to any scottish fold breeder, even the so-called "ethic" ones. Bringing a life to the world knowing it will have health issue is very selfish IMO, no excuse can ever be able to justify it.

I personally love the breed... and the personalities of each scottish fold I've ever met.... they are beautiful beautiful cats and if you have enough money to help those breeds with some of their health issues it shouldn't be too much of an issue to breed them...besides to me if you love them and care for them in a good way then why would it be horrible to breed them. the only problem they would have is some arthritis but even regular cats can get things like that. if taken well care of arthritis shouldn't show up until their later years anyway. Like in the ages 10 and up for the most part. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch4me 
 if you have enough money to help those breeds with some of their health issues it shouldn't be too much of an issue to breed them...

It really isn't that simple. Even the most well bred Fold can have issues, arthritis at a young age, has nothing to do with the amount of money anyone has

Quote:

Originally Posted by missymotus 

It really isn't that simple. Even the most well bred Fold can have issues, arthritis at a young age, has nothing to do with the amount of money anyone has

 

Still it helps to be able to care for the cats arthritis to some extent... if you don't have money to pay for for example pills or medication for the cat to take for it's arthritis then yeah it will get worse but you are right sometimes money isn't enough...but I do love the breed even still... I know it may be called selfish but if I love the breed and the cat then I don't understand why not 

It's not that simple Flinch4me. Yes, SOME cats can develop arthritis, usually at old age, but ALL scottish folds are BORN with it. It's genetic, and it's life-long. That's completely different story. And there is no way to walk around it. Not even the best vet, not even the best breeder, not even the best "blood line". The fold-ear gene and arthritis are twins. You can read some history of scottish folds and you will find there are lots of breeders trying to separate them but failed. So there is no way you get one but not the other. Yes, you can use medication to help them to certain degree, but they are still unhealthy, and they still suffer. Money is powerful but there are things money cannot do. Talk to some patients with arthritis, then you will know how painful it is, even if you don't SEE. You see the breed as beautiful and with great temperment, which I absolutely agree with you, but you are enjoying the view and their personality at the expense of THEIR pain. It is very selfish, just the same as people who declaw their cats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yingying 

I wouldn't consider breeding scottish fold at all. Study shows that ALL scottish folds (even the strait-eared folds) suffer from progressive arthritis of varying severity. It's inevitable because the desease is tightly associated with the fold-ear gene.

Is that the case with other fold-eared cats as well? Such as the American Curl?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekochan 

Is that the case with other fold-eared cats as well? Such as the American Curl?

The fold-ear gene of American Curl is different than the gene of Scottish Folds. So I don't think it's the case for American Curl. However, I don't know if American Curls have any know health issue associated. I don't have much knowledge of that breed :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch4me 

Still it helps to be able to care for the cats arthritis to some extent... if you don't have money to pay for for example pills or medication for the cat to take for it's arthritis then yeah it will get worse but you are right sometimes money isn't enough...but I do love the breed even still... I know it may be called selfish but if I love the breed and the cat then I don't understand why not 

I was replying from a breeding point of view....

Yes, it helps to have the money to treat them, but the cats shouldn't have to intentionally suffer in the first place.

I think any breed that can't be bred type to type shouldn't be allowed.

Well, if you really like the Scottish Fold, perhaps you should also consider British Shorthairs.  They are similar to the Scottish Fold, with their large, round eyes, round faces and cobby/chunky bodies.  I may be biased as I have 2, but I think they also have wonderful personalities and are often used as an out-cross for Scottish Folds.  I think Scottish straights look very similar to British shorthairs.  Just perhaps something else to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StefanZ 

 (If both parents are scottish folds the kittens dont survive).

I have no idea what the OP had originally written, but few corrections need to be made. When 2 cats with folded ears are bred together, the kittens do survive, the fold-gene is not lethal. However at least 30% of the kittens will very likely have osteochondrodysplasia and the others have high risk of arthritis and other issues like that. This is why Scottish Folds are ideally bred with with a British Shorthair in every generation. The fold-gene isn't present in the Scottish Straights, but it is not recommended to use them for breeding "just in case" because sometimes Scottish Fold's folded ears can unfold and the cat is mistakenly registered as a Scottish Straight. (The fold-gene obviously will not disappear anywhere even if the ears of a foldie get up).

Quote:

Originally Posted by yingying 

I wouldn't consider breeding scottish fold at all. Study shows that ALL scottish folds (even the strait-eared folds) suffer from progressive arthritis of varying severity. It's inevitable because the desease is tightly associated with the fold-ear gene. England has long banned the breed and there are vets recommended abandoning the breed entirely. Frankly, I don't hold high respect to any scottish fold breeder, even the so-called "ethic" ones. Bringing a life to the world knowing it will have health issue is very selfish IMO, no excuse can ever be able to justify it.

This is simply not true. I have a perfectly healthy Scottish Fold, he will be 3 years old this month. Also his Scottish Straight brother is healthy, and so is their Fold ear mother who is 7 years old. The mother was completely checked by a cat specialist vet and x-rays were taken to be sure the cat doesn't have any issues known to be "common" in the breed. I don't actually personally know any purebred sick foldie (but there are not many purebred foldies in this country, more moggies with folded ears from backyard breeders from Russia)).

The sick foldies start to show symptoms  when they are around 6 months old, the arthritis shows much faster than in 'regular' breeds 'cause it's more aggressive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow 

This is simply not true. I have a perfectly healthy Scottish Fold, he will be 3 years old this month. Also his Scottish Straight brother is healthy, and so is their Fold ear mother who is 7 years old. The mother was completely checked by a cat specialist vet and x-rays were taken to be sure the cat doesn't have any issues known to be "common" in the breed. I don't actually personally know any purebred sick foldie (but there are not many purebred foldies in this country, more moggies with folded ears from backyard breeders from Russia)).

The sick foldies start to show symptoms  when they are around 6 months old, the arthritis shows much faster than in 'regular' breeds 'cause it's more aggressive.

 

Arthritis is a problem in the cartilage, not in bones, and x-ray only show bones, not cartilage. A doctor can "guess" the quality of the cartilage by viewing the bone structure. However, if the arthritis is minor, they may not see. My mom is a doctor, and she told me patients at early stage of arthritis have chronic pain but cannot be seen on x-ray. So it depends on how good your vet is in reading x-ray photos. Also your cats may have minor form of arthritis which is not significant enough to show in x-ray. When I say all scottish folds have certain degree of arthritis, the keyword is "certain degree". Minor degree of arthritis may not show symptoms. The cat could be a bit inactive because of the pain, but we just think they are lazy.

The reason why scottish folds have fold ears is because their cartilage is not strong enough to make the ears stand. And, hence, they all have certain degree of arthritis. The problem will progress when they get older, because the weak cartilage is more prone to wear and tear, so it is suggested that don't make your scottish folds very active. It has nothing to do with ethnical breeder or BYB. Of course, BYB may breed fold to fold, which is the case that the problem is so sever that you can SEE symptom. Scottish strait doesn't carry any fold-ear gene so they are fine. 
 

There are some papers (published in journals, not the "internet articals") on scottish folds. You can read then if you are interested.

+ Mathews KG, Koblik PD, Knoeckel MJ, Pool RR, Fyfe JC. Resolution of lameness associated with Scottish Fold osteodystrophy following bilateral
osteotomies and pantarsal arthrodesis:a case report. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 1995

+ Jackson OF. Congenital bone lesions in cats with folded ears. Bull Fel Advis Bur 1975

+ Todd NB. Folded-ear cats: further observations. Carn Genet News 1972;

+ Malik R, Allan GS, Howlett CR, Thompson DE, James G, McWhirter C, Kendall K. Osteochondrodysplasia in Scottish Fold cats. Aust Vet J 1999

Quote:

Originally Posted by yingying 

Arthritis is a problem in the cartilage, not in bones, and x-ray only show bones, not cartilage. 

I do know this, I was referring to skeletal issues linked to the osteochondrodyplasia (and hip dysplasia) with the x-ray. When it comes to arthritis the vets go through the joints and see how the cat reacts, and being a cat clinic I assume they know how cats react if they have issues even if they are good to hide pain for example. I can't explain it properly in english. I think it resembles the patellar luxation test a bit? The thing is that these issues develop very early on foldies if they are sick, so it should have gotten quite severe in a 7 year old cat for example. The Folds and Straights I know aren't lazy, they are very similar to British Shorthairs in their activity level. My own foldie is a bit hyper active still, I think he doesn't know he's not a kitten anymore..

What I meant with the BYBs was that they do not test their cats, they might do the fold x fold breeding and very often they mistakenly think poor quality folds are straights because their ears have gotten up and they make 'accidentally' fold x fold litters with those. (And they make up and steal pedigrees and claim the cats are pedigreed when they are not). They also breed the cats very young, when the recommendation is to wait until the cat is at least 1-1,5 years old so the x-rays can be taken and the other possible problems could be avoided (as I mentioned earlier, folds will get sick very early if they are affected, for example the arthritis is much more aggressive and develops faster if it's caused by the Fd-gene).