This is going to be one for the books! Transitioning Lucky, Bugsy and Hope to Raw.... Challenges Gal

Primal is 10% bone? Because that's the Frankenprey target. :nod:

Never thought I was going to be asking for Vibes for Bugsy to POOP

:lol3: :cross:

Auntie Crazy said:

I just spoke with a Nature's Variety representative and she says their foods are not actually 95% meat; instead, they're approximately 15% bone, 30% organs (incl. heart) and 50% meats.

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For those who might be confused, when discussing the 80-10-5-5 (meat, bone, liver, other organ) ratio, heart is considered to be a meat so the meat component of NV is actually higher than 50% although we don't know how much higher.

I second that 15% bone is kinda high. With my cats when I go over 10% I start seeing caulky poops. 

mschauer said:

For those who might be confused, when discussing the 80-10-5-5 (meat, bone, liver, other organ) ratio, heart is considered to be a meat so the meat component of NV is actually higher than 50% although we don't know how much higher.

I second that 15% bone is kinda high. With my cats when I go over 10% I start seeing caulky poops. 

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Also, they don't say 95% Meat, as in muscle..... they say: "95% Meat, organs and bone" - which means that all combined is 95%. "5% of vegetables, fruits, and other wholefoods" (eggs for example), "0% of Grains and Gluten" :nod:

Oh-My-Lord Bugsy has not pooped yet

Hope has pooped the Dr Pierson's "picture perfect raw poop Lucky has pooped too......... But Bugsy......... Nada....!!!!
He is doing GREAT thought! Tons of energy, playing like crazy, running all over the house, and peeing like a fire truck :lol3:
But poop? Where is the poop?
I added some guar gum to his dinner tonight....... However, I think I added too much I remember Dr. Pierson saying 1/4tsp......... so I added that to his meal (which he did not like it) but it turned out she adds that to each 3.5 oz, which is almost a full day of food, while I added to a meal :doh3: I hope I don't give him diarrhea :dash:

Hope and Bugsy: They were pretty starved tonight - Bugsy is taking a LOT of fortiflora to finish up his meal He eats in these tiny tiny bites........ I stuck to the minute to the 30 minute rule though - Gosh, this is going to make my life SO much easier! :nod: He ate, deducting the extra water I added for the fiber, 1.44oz, which means 93.6cal :bigthumb:
Hope licked her plate clean this time - GOOOD girl!!!

Lucky: Was starving by dinner's time :nod: She started the meal by gobbling it up, but I was afraid she did not eat enough - and she hadn't .... So when we were getting close to the end for the 30 minutes deadline, I let her into her room again to eat a bit more. When she didn't want anymore, I pulled the plate.

All and all, we had a pretty successful 30min. meal I think

Once again, the shipment of Primal was delayed to arrive at PSP :wife: I was REALLY hoping for some turkey
So........ Since I needed to go there anyways to get some more rabbit, I decided I will gamble with a different brand..... until it arrives that is - I will not gamble too much :lol3:
I bought a couple packages of RadCat Turkey to try.
Let's hope the kids love it - I am doing a quick defrost to add some to their dinners tonight
There are some interesting things about RadCat, especially for Bugsy:

For example:

Why Does Rad Cat Use Human-Grade Bone Meal Instead Of Ground-In Bone?
Here are a couple of reasons why we made the choice to use a high quality completely human-grade bone meal over ground in bone:

#1) Many people and veterinarians have serious concerns about feeding raw ground bones. Ground bone is challenging for a cat's digestive system. We agree that this is good, but cats with sluggish digestive systems might have problems digesting bone shards. You are a better judge as to the value of bones in your cat's diet. That is why we recommend feeding bones in the natural condition a cat might find it - whole and chewable! You are at the mercy of the manufacturers on the size of bone shards in their grind. In a typical 'kill' for your backyard carnivore, he or she would most likely consume far less bone than is in a typical serving of food with bone ground in.

#2) It is difficult to guarantee the ratio of bone to meat unless every bone ground is exactly the same size. We have chosen to use a human-grade bone meal powder so that we can closely regulate the calcium and phosphorus content in our diets, which is so important for cats.

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Also:

Is Rad Cat Good For My Cat With IBS/IBD (Irritable Bowel Syndrome/Disease)?
As irritable bowel syndromes and diseases may have many causes, a healthy diet to support their digestion and immune system is paramount. Rad Cat is formulated to be the most easily digestible raw cat food and to provide support to maintain a healthy digestive tract. This issue was the driving force behind the formulation of Rad Cat (see About Us for Juno's story)!
Raw diets are easily digestible due to the presence of naturally occurring enzymes in the meat and high moisture content. At Rad Cat, we add gelatin to our diets to enhance the digestive process. Gelatin is high in the amino acid proline (as well as many others), which increases the hydrocloric acid (HCl) content of the stomach. This is very beneficial for cats that are eating a high protein diet. Cats generally have very acidic stomachs, but many cats come to eat raw after being ill and have compromised immune systems and sluggish digestion. Cats without digestive problems can also benefit from the presence of the added amino acids that gelatin provides.
Gelatin is also a wonderful source of collagen that is necessary for maintenance and repair of the digestive lining (as well as all epithelial tissue and joints). IBD and IBS cause a breakdown of this lining which not only contributes to many of the bowel symptoms associated with IBS and IBD, but can lead to general lower immunity. A healthy gut leads to a healthy immune system.
We, at Rad Cat, have also eliminated ground bone from our products. While we agree that chewing on raw bones is extremely beneficial for cats and dogs, ground bone can be difficult to digest for cats with inflammatory or irritable bowel diseases. Ground bones can provide some roughage and be challenging to the digestion. While this may be fine for healthy cats, in general, often it is too challenging for cats with digestive issues and can exacerbate their symptoms.

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(this might also be easier for Bugsy to chew with his stomatitis :nod:

And finally, I like that they post their complete analysis against the AAFCO nutrient/dry matter analysis:

http://www.radfood.com/site/856/LabAnalysis.pdf

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Here are the ingredients for the Turkey:
Free-range turkey thigh and leg meat, free-range turkey heart, free-range turkey liver, filtered water, organic egg yolk, human-grade bone meal, organic kelp, organic dulse, gelatin, organic psyllium husk powder, wild salmon oil, manganese gluconate.

One problem I see, is that I do not see the caloric content in this diet - I do not know how much to safely feed Bugsy.....
It says says in the package to feed 3-4oz twice a day for each 8lb of a cat? To me..... that's excessive

Anyways - I think I will just exchange ounce by ounce of his current rabbit and see what happens - will start with 25% tonight, and if they like it and no adverse effects, tomorrow they will go straight to 50%

You know..... it is funny..... I have been thinking about this as I was sitting with them at dinner tonight.....
Now everytime I feed them, I feel as though I am healing them.... that's the feeling I have :nod:
Hope's eyes are SO bright.... Bugsy is doing SO well He has SO much energy (he is really quite the mean boy actually ) :nod:
I feel I am giving them goodness, love and healing in a plate - feels good, like I am doing the right thing :heart3:

Ohhh..... I think this will be a hit
I gave a small piece to Bugsy...... he ate it.... not insanely crazy about it, but ate it well..... But Hope? OMG It was like heaven had descended on earth - I think I have found her flavor - Da Bird

Let's see how the kidsdo tonight on it - Pretty exciting

Carolina said:

Never thought I was going to be asking for Vibes for Bugsy to POOP

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Me either :lol3: Bugsy........ we are waiting for poop

Carolina said:

Ohhh..... I think this will be a hit
I gave a small piece to Bugsy...... he ate it.... not insanely crazy about it, but ate it well..... But Hope? OMG It was like heaven had descended on earth - I think I have found her flavor - Da Bird

Let's see how the kidsdo tonight on it - Pretty exciting

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Pretty Cool And a huge for the excellent post on Rad Cat :bigthumb: My gosh, I never thought about the difference between human grade bone meal and ground-in bone.... We are learning so much in this thread about transitioning to a commercially raw diet and which ones are the best. Knowledge is Power . for the wonderful, helpful reports.

NOW. .......... POOP.......... Bugsy......... :cross: The guar gum has got to work :lol3:

Originally Posted by Carolina  

.....

You know..... it is funny..... I have been thinking about this as I was sitting with them at dinner tonight.....
Now everytime I feed them, I feel as though I am healing them.... that's the feeling I have

Hope's eyes are SO bright.... Bugsy is doing SO well

He has SO much energy (he is really quite the mean boy actually

)

I feel I am giving them goodness, love and healing in a plate - feels good, like I am doing the right thing

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This is.... this is just beautiful.

This also very sweetly sums up exactly how so many who come to raw (often kicking and screaming) slowly come to feel - and why they so passionately champion the diet after the switch is finally made.

On a completely different note - here's hoping Bugsy poops tonight!

AC

Now.....THAT is quality meat right there
Here is an impressed momma with RadCat! Wow! You open that pack and mix it up...... mix it up.... and you see nothing, nothing but meat. And that's what it is - meat. This is definitely a no-BS-commercial raw food, not that the others are, but on this one, you SEE it :nod:
The only part of momma's that's not impressed is her pocket - at $8.99/lb, it would definitely be a problem to feed :nod:

I LIKED it though - the look, the feel, the texture.... the moisture content.... This looks exactly like the very fresh meat with all the juice you get from the market, red, bright and beautiful, as soon as you grind it Totally impressed :bigthumb:

With all that stated:
Bugsy and Hope:
Hope was pretty disappointed she only got 1/4 of the turkey mixed into 3/4 of the rabbit :slant: Nothing that a little Fortiflora wouldn't do.... Ha! Yeah Hope - you need to wait until tomorrow...... but momma has her tricks!

For Bugsy, even this little bit of RadCat made a difference :bigthumb: It is just SO much easier on him :nod: It has more moisture (blood), the meat is softer and clumpier, his bites are more effective...... He eats faster and it required less fortiflora - he also ate a bit more - 1.60oz And with no bones to chew on, nothing gets stuck on his teeth!
I so want to start them on 50/50 tomorrow morning!!!!

Now he just has to poop :cross:
Lucky:
Lucky, as you know, had her first day with her plates unavailable for her on the station - she was fed only during her meals :nod:
Dinner was not really good....... But she did eat 1/4 cup for the day.... Let see how many calories:
She needs a minimum of 12x15=180; optimum would be 240...... She had 1/4 cup, at 546cal a cup = 136.5 She is way off.......
She needs to pick it up......
I will give her A few Raw beefs coated with Halo tonight before we go to bed, and let's see if she eats more tomorrow :cross:

  That tomorrow is a good day all the way 'round!!!   

Just gave the kids their "Lucky" Special treats - the little Halo covered raw burgers - They continue to work like a charm :nod:
Lucky is eating them much easier now - while before when would sniff them all over and carefully look for the Halo, try to pick them out, only to find out she had not choice but to eat them :lol3:; Now she just eats them without any hesitation.
I am making a whole batch of treats before giving it to them - of course I have to give to them all - AND I have to work fast, as Lucky CRIES and CRIES and CRIES for them.
I think tonight she ate about 5?
Keep in mind, these are tiny - each of them is a pea-size, maybe a little bigger.... a bean size :lol3: smashed flat, then covered well with Halo crumbs.
Tonight I ran out of defrosted raw so I just gave the crumbs for Bugsy and Luck to lick off the plate - they did do a good job for momma after-all

I will keep increasing sizes until I feel that I can put a little plate of raw with the halo on top :nod:

Carolina, that is GREAT news about Lucky and her treats!

And interesting about the Radcat food.... :nod:

And a question about Bugsy... while it may be the calcium content because of the percentage of bones... despite the failings of the AAFCO LOL, there are minimums and maximums, and these commercial raw foods do meet the AAFCO "standards," ... so.... what I'm wondering is... maybe this is just part of the raw diet? That article said they may poop only every 2-3 days. :nod:

:dk:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wake up this morning and it is there........ 2 and 1/4 pieces........ of the perfect raw-style poop!
How do I Know it is Bugsy's? Easy: Hope had pooped yesterday, and then again this morning - Also the raw poop

Now..... let's discuss Bugsy's poop for a little bit, shall we? :lol3: Let's have the poop talk :lol3:
To be fair, I do not know if he strained, or cried, or had a hard time to pass it. I do not know either, for how long had it been drying in the litter box :nod:
What I know is that it was pretty darn hard on the outside, sort of crumbly, had some hair, little pieces of bone and a tiny, only tiny bit of moisture on the inside.....
Working by logic, that must not be fun to poop :lol3:
Hope's on the other hand, was easier to break down...... but again, it was fresher on the litter box...... so not a fair comparison.
So, you raw-poops experts, what do you think?

This morning, as a precaution, I did add fiber to his diet - only this time the correct amount :lol3: - a "hint" which is 1/16 tsp, with .25oz of water. (I think my measuring spoon is marked wrong, as it is way bigger than the "drop one" where it usually, it is not... in my set, this is the one size smaller than the 1/8tsp. :nod:
So, if I do this 3 times a day, he will get just what he needs - between 1/8 and 1/4 tsp :nod:

Breakfast:
Hope and Bugsy:
There they were..... Bright and early, very excited, walking around the kitchen "Faster mom, HURRY!
It is getting easier and easier to prepare their meals as I get used to the qtys, defrosting and cleaning :nod: They had a 50/50 rabbit and RadCat Turkey this morning
Bugsy jumped right in
Hope, as always, waited for her beloved Fortiflora

I did start Bugsy's meal with 2.25oz this time, adding 10% of weight in water for the fiber.... Hope is getting her 1.92oz as always.
Hope ate her entire meal :nod - she is doing fantastic!!
Bugsy ate most of it with the help of fortiflora - again, definitely an improvement from Rabbit alone :nod: Unfortunately, I have no way to measure how much he left, as Hope didn't allow me - she said...... Oh yeah? Thank you Bugsy - Please allow me to clean up your plate for you
I think he left about 0.25 oz or so..... His total must been around 2oz for today, or............ 130calories

Lucky:
Lucky really needs to get into the program :nod:
She ate, but not really well...... She needs to eat more :nod:
I let her in again, within the 20min timeframe, and she ate a tiny bit more.......
depending on her consumption for the day, I will increase the raw beefs accordingly to give her enough calories for the day - tha't how I am going to complement her diet from now on - with raw meat :nod:

I am sure she is going to be pretty darn hungry next meal :nod:

A note about Bugsy:

He has been taken off 2 of his regular supplements already
Align and Runnipoo - He has been off of it for 2 days now and so far........ so excellent
All he is taking now is Proviable-DC - which is also the probiotic I am giving to Hope for good measure and will continue to do so while feeding raw - I believe in probiotics, and Proviable-DC is an excellent one.

It has been only 11 days....... and Bugsy is doing FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK - the raw feeders will have to chime in on the poop thing, but if he pooped late last night... this could be just fine! :cross:

But he pooped! (I suspect if he were crying.. you would have woken up? :dk: ).

Carolina - I know there's work left to do, but really, this is AMAZING!!!!!!! Even Lucky IS starting to get with the program! Little by little!

LDG said:

OK - the raw feeders will have to chime in on the poop thing, but if he pooped late last night... this could be just fine! :cross:
But he pooped! (I suspect if he were crying.. you would have woken up? :dk: ).
Carolina - I know there's work left to do, but really, this is AMAZING!!!!!!! Even Lucky IS starting to get with the program! Little by little!

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I checked him bottom too - it has no signs of blood, inflammation, it is not red or swollen..... I think it was the raw poop that just sat on the litter for several hours :nod:

Laurie - this experience has given me LOTS to think about it......
I mean..... Bugsy, at the best pooped formed, but soft, very soft, but quite a bit too..... lots in volume..... Now, if you see the pieces that him and Hope are pooping.... Tiny. I mean - they are really small...... And just a couple or few pieces..... It makes you wonder.... where is that food going? I am guessing that they are using the food now - all of it They are just really sucking it up, digesting and using all the nutrients of the food, and there is not much waste to go on the poop :doh3:

Carolina said:

The proof is in the poop:lol3:​

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Yeah, it's giving me a lot to think about too. :nod:

Well, cats make mucus to help them pass the poo.  I would think his body would adjust fine to the firmer, and less bulky poo.  Just keep an eye on him--he sounds fine to me. 

I do use psyllium powder in my cat mix.  Wirehair cats have HUGE in diameter poo (everyone who has a wire has said so!) so I just figured it's a good idea to give them fiber.

CatMom2Wires said:

Well, cats make mucus to help them pass the poo.  I would think his body would adjust fine to the firmer, and less bulky poo.  Just keep an eye on him--he sounds fine to me. 



I do use psyllium powder in my cat mix.  Wirehair cats have HUGE in diameter poo (everyone who has a wire has said so!) so I just figured it's a good idea to give them fiber.

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Hum..... You might want to consider Guar gum then.... That's why I did.... because it seems to increase the moisture content of the feces, but not so much the volume, like psyllium :nod:

There are two types of fiber - soluble and insoluble. Psyllium is a combination of both types. Guar gum is strictly soluble. I use this source of fiber because it does not seem to add as much bulk to the stool when compared to insoluble fiber but it does increase the water content of the feces, thereby softening it.
Soluble fiber also has some properties that promote intestinal (colon) health.http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Constipation

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Thanks for making me feel better about Bugsy - this is SUCH a new thing for me So unexpected - would never think of see that in the litter box