This is going to be one for the books! Transitioning Lucky, Bugsy and Hope to Raw.... Challenges Gal

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carolina

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That's awesome, Carolina! I knew the Halo would help. Whoot, whoot!!!!!

Yes, you can run a ziplock bag under warm water, or soak it in a bowl of warm water. In fact, this is preferable to spreading the food out on the plate, as that makes it more difficult for them to eat (it's commonly used to slow down fast eaters).

Most of the recommendations I see suggest picking the food up after 30 minutes.

By the way - didn't you give Bugsy Halo before and he was fine? It wasn't until you fed him Stella and Chewy's that he had an issue, correct? I'd be inclined to try him again with the Halo, since it seems to be a favorite of all of them.

AC
Haha! My Lucky has Hope - no pun intended :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
About Bugsy and Halo.....Yes he was fine.... However that was only one day, and considering how he reacted to Stella and Chewy, and the fact that he has been allergic to chicken since the day I got him....... I really don't want to risk.... I think that might been a good fluke. :dk:
Bugsy had explosive diarrhea in the past with all forms of chicken, and I don't want to risk breaking the good thing we have going now :cross: :nod:
 

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Carolina, I'd go with the NV feeding recommendations. :nod: And for a not active cat. :lol3: When discussing the raw feeding guide with AC, it came up with too many oz for my crew - who are all "not active" seniors at this point. They get exercise in the RV, but not what they could in a house, you know? I know Bugsy's not a senior - but he's a loafer, right? :D

...But funny enough, the NV feeding guide produces the same amount of oz they're eating now. So I suspect they'll need even less on raw if I do it, as they get more nutrition per oz on raw. :nod:

So the NV feeding guide seems a safe assumption, I think. :)
 

auntie crazy

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Originally Posted by Carolina

I don't know how NV calculates their "recommended" feeding amounts. Using the raw feeders calculator, Bugsy should get 7.75 ounces of food a day at his optimal weight of 16 pounds, and 9 ounces at his current weight (using 3%). Personally, I'd start with 8 ounces a day and just watch Bugsy. If his weight maintains or increases, reduce the amount by half an ounce or so, if he begins to lose weight, make sure it's no more than a couple of ounces a week, adjusting his food intake accordingly.
NV calculates also depending on how sedentary he is - which my goodness - Bugsy is the cat version of a couch potato
So I guess it might be it?
Could their food be more caloric?
Here is Rabbit:
Calories
65 per oz http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/cat/rabbit
If he eats 8 oz..... I am afraid it is going to be too much calories at 520 a day?
My goodness, that's a LOT of calories!
Maybe they just pack pack pack their meat when they grind it?

5.4oz = 351...... which is probably more in line with 20 calories per lb?
What do you think?
Well, again, it's not about calories, it's about where those calories come from. Every single protein-sourced calorie is going to be converted into building blocks for body repair or directly into energy. None of those calories are ever stored.

Fat calories can be stored, however, cats need 25-35% of the diet to be supplied as fat.... you'd have to really get crazy with the fat content to make a raw-fed cat gain weight.

Whatever number you choose to start with, let your cats guide you. And if you choose to reduce their portions, remember to do it slowly, ok? If I recall correctly from your first couple of posts, Bugsy is eating two and a half cans a day? That's 13.75 ounces.... if you reduce that too drastically (regardless of what you're feeding), Bugsy's probably not going to be a happy camper.

Let his body adjust to the new diet, and let his body condition and energy level guide you as to portions (remembering that his energy levels are likely to pick up as he adjusts to a fully raw diet).

Much good luck and many vibes continue to flow your way!!!


AC
 
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carolina

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Well, again, it's not about calories, it's about where those calories come from. Every single protein-sourced calorie is going to be converted into building blocks for body repair or directly into energy. None of those calories are ever stored.

Fat calories can be stored, however, cats need 25-35% of the diet to be supplied as fat.... you'd have to really get crazy with the fat content to make a raw-fed cat gain weight.

Whatever number you choose to start with, let your cats guide you. And if you choose to reduce their portions, remember to do it slowly, ok? If I recall correctly from your first couple of posts, Bugsy is eating two and a half cans a day? That's 13.75 ounces.... if you reduce that too drastically (regardless of what you're feeding), Bugsy's probably not going to be a happy camper.

Let his body adjust to the new diet, and let his body condition and energy level guide you as to portions (remembering that his energy levels are likely to pick up as he adjusts to a fully raw diet).

Much good luck and many vibes continue to flow your way!!! :heart3:

AC
Thanks AC :hugs:
No, he is not - he is eating 1 1/2 can a day (of the 5.5 oz, so 8.25oz) - The ziwiPeak recommendation was way TOO MUCH (which is usually the case with manufacturers, anyways :(). I went back and checked the calories.... and I am feeding him accordingly. Bugsy would never eat 2 1/2 cans a day. I have updated the thread since then - not in the same post, but I have.... Which in calories, not in volume, is less than the raw I am going to feed. And about availability on the raw.... Shouldn't he eat even less then? Isn't that the typical case?
 
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auntie crazy

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Originally Posted by Carolina

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Well, again, it's not about calories, it's about where those calories come from. Every single protein-sourced calorie is going to be converted into building blocks for body repair or directly into energy. None of those calories are ever stored.

Fat calories can be stored, however, cats need 25-35% of the diet to be supplied as fat.... you'd have to really get crazy with the fat content to make a raw-fed cat gain weight.

Whatever number you choose to start with, let your cats guide you. And if you choose to reduce their portions, remember to do it slowly, ok? If I recall correctly from your first couple of posts, Bugsy is eating two and a half cans a day? That's 13.75 ounces.... if you reduce that too drastically (regardless of what you're feeding), Bugsy's probably not going to be a happy camper.

Let his body adjust to the new diet, and let his body condition and energy level guide you as to portions (remembering that his energy levels are likely to pick up as he adjusts to a fully raw diet).

Much good luck and many vibes continue to flow your way!!!


AC
No, he is not - he is eating 1 1/2 can a day (of the 5.5 oz, so 8.25oz) - The ziwiPeak recommendation was way TOO MUCH (which is usually the case with manufacturers, anyways
). I went back and checked the calories.... and I am feeding him accordingly. Bugsy would never eat 2 1/2 cans a day. I have updated the thread since then - not in the same post, but I have.... Which in calories, not in volume, is less than the raw I am going to feed. And about availability on the raw.... Shouldn't he eat even less then? Isn't that the typical case?
Huh. Missed the updated post. (I thought 2.5 cans was an awful lot of food.)

In any case, the only way to know what he'll need is to try him out. If he's eating 8.25 ounces of food a day, I'd say just keep feeding him close to that amount until you see what his weight's gong to do, then adjust accordingly. We can talk theoretically all day, but at the end of the night, each kitty has its own metabolism and that's what will ultimately determine how much food he needs.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific. The raw fed starting amount is almost always just an informed guess, subsequently adjusted per each kitty's needs.

AC
 
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carolina

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Huh. Missed the updated post. (I thought 2.5 cans was an awful lot of food.)

In any case, the only way to know what he'll need is to try him out. If he's eating 8.25 ounces of food a day, I'd say just keep feeding him close to that amount until you see what his weight's gong to do, then adjust accordingly. We can talk theoretically all day, but at the end of the night, each kitty has its own metabolism and that's what will ultimately determine how much food he needs.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific. The raw fed starting amount is almost always just an informed guess, subsequently adjusted per each kitty's needs.

AC
Yeah - it was extreme.... I think he would go Capooch! :lol3: Besides, he would never eat that much wet to begin with..... So I had to do my research and turn to calories.... :nod:
Anyways.... I can start feeding him ounce per ounce, now, since we are transitioning, and see how he does.... :nod:
Then I can adjust it from there to NV's recommendation.....

But for goodness sakes, he will not gain weight, right? I mean...... he can't lick his butt at this point...... I need him to lick his butt :flail:
I know, sad... But true! all that hair there doesn't help the boy's case either, to be fair!
 
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auntie crazy

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Originally Posted by Carolina

Yeah - it was extreme.... I think he would go Capooch!
Besides, he would never eat that much wet to begin with..... So I had to do my research and turn to calories....

Anyways.... I can start feeding him ounce per ounce, now, since we are transitioning, and see how he does....

Then I can adjust it from there to NV's recommendation.....

But for goodness sakes, he will not gain weight, right? I mean...... he can't lick his butt at this point...... I need him to lick his butt

I know, sad... But true! all that hair there doesn't help the boy's case either, to be fair!
Oh, that's hysterical. I totally LOL'd.

I can't speak for his transition time, but once he's on raw, it's extremely unlikely - not impossible, just highly unlikely - that he'll put on additional poundage. In fact, I'd venture that within a month after a full transition, you're going to see some of that excess weight start dropping off him.


AC
 
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carolina

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:tribe:The Poop-o-meter has spoken:tribe:​

:thud: My Goodness - and I AM an eye witness - I was there :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
Well, as you can imagine...... My excitement can only come with a great poop from Bugsy :flail::crackup:
Sure........ not completely firm....... BUT - get this: ALL formed, and over 1/2 of it was solid, AND.... so much less! OMG :thud: :clap::clap::clap:

So......... tomorrow he will go to 75% yeah baby! You earned it!! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Anyways, 'nough about poop! here is how we closed Day 6:

Lucky:
Did the same treats, and she ate again! Not 2, but nonetheless, she ate one :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: The second and third she got smart on me and spit it off :lol3::lol3::lol3: But.... She would put it in the mouth, spit it, do it again.... And several times she went back and thought really hard.... Is this worth it :scratch: :lol3: Which to me, means that she was not completely disgusted by it :clap::clap::clap::clap:
:clap::clap::clap: All meals were on schedule, with me today :clap::clap::clap:
Now, she didn't eat enough for me to remove the food from the station for the night, BUT - she did not graze all day, and has learned meal times! :nod: We are almost there - I think a few more days and she is going to have this down :clap::clap::clap:

Bugsy and Hope:
It did help some to warm up the food, but frankly, I don't think that made all that difference...... Bugsy ate about 1/2 on the first sitting, then the rest was moving around and Fortiflora....... In the end though, he ate it all and is pretty much passed out :lol3:
Hope was difficult....... she gave me a hard time and took several sprinkles..... in the end there was some left... and no fortiflora would make her eat.... So I decided to do a test.
Tossed that food away, and put a little more than a Tsp of Raw food on her plate - spread on the bottom of her plate not only for the temperature to go up a little, but for her to eat slower (Hope has thrown up before, not this time around for eating raw too fast). Gave to her. She was on the very top of the Cat Shelf.......
Nom Nom Nom
When she stopped the Noms, which was quite quickly, I took the plate away to see what was left - NOT A TRACE. This girl came RUNNING down the shelves, jumped down the cat tree, down my feet and and started BEGGING
Keep in mind, this was pure raw - no fortiflora, no Halo, no nothing..... This Girl was NUTS :nod:
So, I am super relieved 2-folded - seems that she is sick and tired of the Z/D, which to be fair, I always rotated.... 2 Flavors of Ziwi and Z/D.... She never liked Z/D for this long..... and she still loves the meat!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

So, tomorrow, she will go full on - 100% raw.
Bugsy will be on 75%raw and 25% ZD
And Lucky will continue to be my loooooong time project!

So exciting!!
Bring on the meat! :clap::clap::clap:
 

auntie crazy

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What a wonderful, wonderful transition you're enjoying Carolina! How very exciting - and rewarding! - to see Bugsy and Hope taking to the raw so eagerly; and even Lucky, after only a couple of tries, is beginning to eat it.

I have to tell you - it warms my heart to watch Bugsy go from 18 solid months of diarrhea to an ever-increasingly normal poop.... I can't even imagine how it must make you feel.


Well, actually, with the super-sized ALL-IN-CAPS text liberally sprinkled with cheering, bouncing emoticons, I guess I can at least make a good guess.
  LOL!!

Keep up the great work, you three!!!!!!!!!

AC
 
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carolina

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What a wonderful, wonderful transition you're enjoying Carolina! How very exciting - and rewarding! - to see Bugsy and Hope taking to the raw so eagerly; and even Lucky, after only a couple of tries, is beginning to eat it.

I have to tell you - it warms my heart to watch Bugsy go from 18 solid months of diarrhea to an ever-increasingly normal poop.... I can't even imagine how it must make you feel. :heart3:

Well, actually, with the super-sized ALL-IN-CAPS text liberally sprinkled with cheering, bouncing emoticons, I guess I can at least make a good guess. :lol3:   LOL!!

Keep up the great work, you three!!!!!!!!!

AC
I know I know!!! And can you believe it this is only day SIX? :thud: I mean..... all this time Bugsy has been having trouble...... He was seconds from exploratory surgery, and ran completely out of choices.............. aside from RAW - and there you have it - Six DAYS and a major, major improvement! :clap::clap::clap:
Oh, I am SO excited for him :heart3: I just can't wait for his next vet appointment! :woohoo:

Now....... here is how I feel about his poop: We have gone through so much suffering, so many treatments...... that to see a good "bugsy poop"
Makes me want to Frame it in a golden frame and put it on the wall :lol3::lol3::lol3:
Now, that would make me just a tad weird, wouldn't it :crackup:

Thank you so much AC, for never giving up on us :hugs:
(in spite of the tremendous hard time I have given you in the past :hide:)
 
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carolina

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Ok, so here is the plan for tomorrow-
Lucky: continue the schedule, with the aid if Halo treats.
Hope: all raw :clap:
5.76oz a day, 1.92oz per meal

Bugsy:
Starts with an average, then go lower for his lean weight.
He will be 75% raw,25% wet.
2.06oz raw, 0.7oz wet/per meal

When full on raw, will eat 2.85oz per meal, then decrease to 2.56oz per meal.
We will see how they do with these quantities at first...
Can't wait for tomorrow's feeding! Big day for Hope!:bigthumb:

Sent from my BlackBerry 8900 using Tapatalk
 

ritz

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Carolina, so pleased with the success you've had, especially with your 'problem child'.  I admire your will power. 

Ritz lived on the streets for the first four to five months of her life (two years ago), so she may have some food issues in general (um, like her human mom).  Ritz is around 11 pounds (scale may not be accurate) and normal active.  She is around 2.5 years old, female, spade.  Has stress-induced UTIs, but otherwise healthy.  (Rescue Remedy helps a lot.)

As AC knows and others may have inferred, I'm somewhat obsessed about Ritz's weight and how much food she is eating.  So I remember details surrounding this issue. 

In September 2011, she was eating nine ounces of seafood flavored Fancy Feast Classic wet food and around 1/8 cup of TOTW dry food.  I knew fish based canned food wasn't good for her, and I was frustrated because the ONLY flavor of any kind of canned food she would eat (high to low end quality) was seafood based.  So in desparation I tried raw.  Ritz took to it immediately; other than some constipation issues, she has had no problems with the raw food itself.

She was soon satisfied with 'only' six ounces of raw food (combination of commercial raw and Frankenprey).  I am/was not comfortable with her weight/looks, so I reduced it to around five ounces.  She was not comfortable with that amount (her Meows testified to that fact), so right now I'm trying to keep it to 5.5 ounces of raw food.  She is not meowing as much.

You cats will get use to the lesser amount of food they are eating because of the way they utilize the components (protein/fat/carbs).  I didn't believe it at first, but now I do. 

In so far as temperature and protein source:  Ritz doesn't much care what temperature the food is, as long as it is not partially frozen.  With Ritz, I tried venison, she threw it up.  But knowing Ritz tends to throw up food once or twice a month for no particular reason, I tried feeding it to her again, and she loved it and kept it down.  But do keep in mind the fat level of the protein you feed her; rabbit is low in fat.  Ritz loves Rabbit but seems to be hungrier the day I feed her rabbit.
 

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That's an interesting point - I wonder if you're supposed to adjust the oz based on which NV protein you're feeding? :dk: I only looked up the average. But I'm sure the kids will let you know. :lol3:

I do remember a Johnny Carson show where someone was making bolo tie "art" out of chicken poop! :flail:
 
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Day 7 Report

:ref: Day7, contrary to I expected - yeah, a great sea of roses :lol3:, started out with some minor roadblocks...... This is going to be a good news bad news kind of report, I am afraid :doh3:

First the good news -
Lucky:
Lucky seems to be 100% on Schedule, and was SO hungry waiting for breakfast :hyper:. Not sure if good or bad, but she had not touched her food at the station throughout the night AT ALL - she is waiting for me to eat 100% now. That also means that she is eating a bit less than what she should..... But not much less. :hyper: She did have TWO of the raw treats today again :hyper: The third one she spit it off.
She has kept all meals yesterday, and the big breakfast today...... Things are looking up for her :bigthumb: :clap::clap::clap:

And here comes the "bad" news:
Bugsy and Hope:
BOTH had bad time eating, contrary of what I had imagined....... And I have a FIRM belief it was due to the scent of the Halo treats I am making for Lucky only. I am making the treats with the kitchen door closed, and when I open it, they go absolutely NUTS looking for it - I am no fool - I know exactly what they are looking for.... :(
Huge, huge disappointment when I run to Lucky's station and give the treats to her only :disa:
There was not much after that that could be done for them to eat they full meals...... Moving plates, fortiflora..... They wanted Halo.....
So, my choices are limited: Either I sacrifice Lucky's transition, or I sprinkle all the foods with Halo....... which in the end is what I had to do.

NOW - I just HOPE and PRAY that Bugsy doesn't come out with the runs......... Because today he had a double hit - He had both an increase of raw meat to 75% and 25%wet, AND his food sprinkled with Halo Chicken. If he has the runs, I will bet it is the Halo.

He did not finish his meal - he left some.... but I really do think at that point the boy was full..... The amount I am giving him is the 8.25oz a day, while NV's recommendation is 5.4..... So.... I am Pretty confident he got enough - he did not leave a lot.

At the moment he is having a case of the NUTS with Lucky, running around the house :lol3::clap::clap::clap:

Hope Same thing as Bugsy :( In the end, she left a little bit..... But again, she is being fed more than recommended by NV, which is a good thing - she more than likely had enough.

Well..... Today I must ask for some vibes...... For Bugsy to not have the runs...... This will set me Back with Lucky..... :(
The Poop-o-meter is ready and waiting to see - hopefully all is going to be fine........

:sigh: why isn't everything a sea of roses? :lol3:
 
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carolina

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I do remember a Johnny Carson show where someone was making bolo tie "art" out of chicken poop! :flail:
:flail: Have you seen a show on Discovery channel called "Oddities"? Maybe I should sell framed Bugsy's poop in there :lol3::lol3::lol3: Who knows if it would be a hit? Formed poop from the World Record for longest standing Cat Diarrhea :flail:
 
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...BOTH had bad time eating, contrary of what I had imagined....... And I have a FIRM belief it was due to the scent of the Halo treats I am making for Lucky only. I am making the treats with the kitchen door closed, and when I open it, they go absolutely NUTS looking for it - I am no fool - I know exactly what they are looking for.... :(

Huge, huge disappointment when I run to Lucky's station and give the treats to her only :disa:

There was not much after that that could be done for them to eat they full meals...... Moving plates, fortiflora..... They wanted Halo.....

So, my choices are limited: Either I sacrifice Lucky's transition, or I sprinkle all the foods with Halo....... which in the end is what I had to do....
I don't think you had much of a choice. :lol3: Maybe sprinkle less and less on Hope and Bugsy's food.... so they think they're getting it, because they can smell it... but not really? :dk:

:vibes: :vibes: :vibes: :vibes: :vibes: the Halo treats don't give Bugsy diarrhea!
 

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8.2 ounces of food is a LOT!  My Ziggy, who is 14 pounds and fairly active (goes outside and climbs tree, etc) eats a max of 6 oz.  I would definitely scale that back a bit.  I'm glad you are going 100% raw with him.

When I brought my Brillo home, I was already feeding raw at my house and I just plunked down a bowl of raw for Brillo for her first meal here.  She'd never had anything but FF and kibble for her whole life (was 3 years old at that time) and she took to it like a duck to water.  Never had a problem.  I think if you're going to do a big change, going TOWARD the raw is the best way to do it.

Maybe you can make 5 halo meatballs each meal and just put one each on Hope and Bugsy's bowl.  Of course when Lucky begins to eat the raw balls 100% of the time, you'll need to begin making 2 with the halo and one plain....get her eating the treats plain before increasing the amount, since ultimately you don't want to depend on additives.

If Felix can do it, anyone can!

Good luck.
 
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carolina

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8.2 ounces of food is a LOT!  My Ziggy, who is 14 pounds and fairly active (goes outside and climbs tree, etc) eats a max of 6 oz.  I would definitely scale that back a bit.  I'm glad you are going 100% raw with him.

When I brought my Brillo home, I was already feeding raw at my house and I just plunked down a bowl of raw for Brillo for her first meal here.  She'd never had anything but FF and kibble for her whole life (was 3 years old at that time) and she took to it like a duck to water.  Never had a problem.  I think if you're going to do a big change, going TOWARD the raw is the best way to do it.

Maybe you can make 5 halo meatballs each meal and just put one each on Hope and Bugsy's bowl.  Of course when Lucky begins to eat the raw balls 100% of the time, you'll need to begin making 2 with the halo and one plain....get her eating the treats plain before increasing the amount, since ultimately you don't want to depend on additives.

If Felix can do it, anyone can!


Good luck.
LOL Bugsy is a little..... heavier than Ziggy..... just about 5 lbs :lol3: He is 19......... more or less - could be a bit more, due to my scale not being too precise - he is a HUGE boy :nod:
I agree though..... he did not finish his plate for the life of me.... and I think really, that he was full..... So, we will take from there :wavey:
Thank you SO much for the tip on the treats - I will scale the one down when she eats the 3 of them!! It is working :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
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Wow!  Wow! Wow!  And I mean Wow!  This is just too exciting!!!!!!!!!
.

I'm getting closer and closer to trying to make the switch, even though I have two extremely finicky eaters.
 
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