Ratio's for Feeding Wet/Dry

sivyaleah

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Our cat is nearly 11 years old; we adopted him from a friend a year ago.  He's a rather large boy.  I think the last time he was weighed he came in around 18 pounds or so and, absolutely needed to lose weight.  We attributed his weight gain to the fact that a) he used to be partially an outdoor cat and no longer is so he isn't expending the same energy and b) he's eating better food and we might not be feeding him the right quantities of it.  

My BF, particularly had a bad habit of giving into him in between set meals.  I do not.  I think this has stopped - well, I know for the most part it has because he was out of work for a long time and is now working again, and so, not home all day to give him more food!  Looking at Casper, I *think* he looks like he may have dropped a couple in the past couple of months. Maybe.

Casper is known to also gobble food down and vomit it back up at times, so we don't tend to keep kibble out for him all day long "just in case" he does this when we're not home to clean it up.  We do not, however, give him people treats frequently - maybe once a week and it's always only very basic food such as a small piece of plain chicken or fish.  Never anything adulterated or filled with fattening people ingredients and, the portion is bite sized - not filling his bowl with it by any means. We do not even give him kitty food treats typically.  He gets that maybe once a month at best. 

Anyway, he's been on a dry food diet for about a year now and doing pretty well on it.  He came to us being fed wet and dry, but both terrible stuff; I think it was Purina kibble and their canned also, Fancy Feast?  Ugh, those canned meals were such garbage; filled with meal and fillers.  Once we had educated ourselves better we took him off of all of it and began trying higher quality foods and eventually just switched to dry kibble primarily because he seemed to do better on it.  Plus, every wet food we tried he didn't seem to be thrilled with (I think he was too used to the Purina since he was raised on it) or - they were SO expensive that we would just keep them as an occasional treat for him.  

So, we have him on Blue's "Basics" for many months now.  This is the one we settled on after trying several; including other Blue Buffalo types.  We found the less ingredients for him, the better his vomiting was (it's not like it happens daily but even once a week is too much sometimes lol).  On the "Basics" there are times when we find he can go for a couple of weeks without an incident which is great.  We give him 1/4 cup in the morning; split into 2 servings usually so that he doesn't bolt it down.  Another 1/4 cup in the evening.  Both are probably a bit more than 1/4 cup; as they are heaping servings.  So maybe a bit more than 1/2 cup of kibble daily.  This amount was ok'd by our vet.

But, now I would like to add in some wet food.  And the heck with the cost.  Or partially.  I'll try and catch the sales and stock up.  I just purchased some small cans of the AvoDerm which I was highly impressed with.  I mean, this was real fish in there, not junk.  And he went crazy for it.  Nom nom nom!

I got the 3 oz cans because they were on sale and to try them out it made more sense just in case he didn't like it.  I liked these better even than the Blue Buffalo ones I had purchased as far as the quality of what I saw.  I know I can't just give him seafood all the time as wet, I need to rotate with poultry/meat due to the possibility of urine issues (he already had a bout with a UTI earlier this year).  

But I'm now confused as to how much I would feed him wet/dry if I add this into his diet.  Looking at the 3 oz can in his bowl, half of that seemed quite adequate to me as a meal but, he certainly acted like he needed more than that by the time dinner came around.  Of course it could have been a ploy :D

I don't want to give him the wet in the morning.  The one time I tried doing that was one of the mornings he barfed and let me tell you having to clean up really wet regurgitation on the carpet as I was running out the door for work was not the highlight of my day.  Kibble barf?  Much easier to quickly clean up lol.

Thanks very much in advance for your help!  Hope I made sense here.
 
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auntie crazy

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Hi, Sivyaleah! Welcome to TCS!
  (And Merry Christmas!
)

In all honesty, the healthiest ratio of wet to dry is 100% to none at all. Kibble comes with so many problems, including dehydration, cancers, urinary tract issues and more. You can get the scoop on this via CatInfo.org and Feline-Nutrition.org, and CatInfo.org has a great transition article: Transitioning Feline Dry Food Addicts to Canned Food.

I'd also recommend feeding your kitties a rotation of foods; this will keep them from becoming fixated on any one product (a problem if they change or stop producing it) and protect them from potential quality control issues by diluting their impact. Since cats may develop hypersensitivity when continually exposed to the same proteins or ingredients for extended periods, it will also help prevent food intolerance issues (and the associated diarrhea and vomiting).

Dr. Hofve of LittleBigCat.com has a great article with even more reasons for rotating foods: Switching Foods.

Look for canned products that are no or low-carb (i.e. low or no grains, fruits and vegetables) and have a high percentage of a named meat (i.e. "turkey" instead of "poultry"). Wellness, Natural Balance and Felidae all have grain-free varieties, and Nature's Variety Instincts and Evo 95% meat products are all grain-free. A "grain-free canned cat" search on petfooddirect.com will yield a veritable cornucopia of options, and you can conduct a side-by-side analysis of the ingredients and nutritional profiles.

Feline-nutrition.org has a nice article on deciphering pet food labels under their Nutrition section, Reading a Pet Food Ingredient Label,

that offers additional insight into choosing different products.

Best regards! Hope this helps!

AC
 
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sivyaleah

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Actually...that helps me a lot more than expected!

Thank you so much for all the helpful links.  Lots of good reading/research and I welcome it.

Laurie
 

ducman69

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You can feed any ratio that you prefer, what really matters is how many calories you are feeding.  

You can guesstimate using the feeding suggestions on the back of the can and bag, which is rather easy if you do half wet and half dry.   Whatever the feeding suggestion is for wet or dry individual, just give half of each.  

Alternatively, if you have a food scale, you can weigh the food, or if the bag shows how many calories are in a cup just use a measuring cup.  

Most cats consume about 200 calories a day, some more or less depending on age and activity level.  

Regarding "dry food is bad" myths, see the link in my signature.   There are studies that show dental disease, the most common disease in cats, "was significantly more absent" in cats and dogs that were fed at least some dry food compared to cats consuming only wet, such as in one of the largest scientific pet nutrition studies to date (38,776 cats and dogs in the study).    So we have been successfully feeding a 50/50 mix of dry and wet food (two wet meals and one dry meal a day), as it offers an attractive combination of great cost savings, convenience (especially in an autofeeder), and dental hygiene.  


Like wet food, the quality varies quite a bit between brands, but I've seen good results with Blue Wilderness Duck recipe, and for wet we rotate between various flavors and brands.  By nature, Wellness, Nutro Complete care, Authority, Evolve, Blue, Innova and whatever else looks decent and is on sale. I'd avoid the 3oz cans, as they are just too pricey IMO.



My product tester is very motivated.  
 
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ldg

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We switched our cats to an all wet diet last year. It took us a few attempts, because they were used to free feeding, and they ate many small meals throughout the day. You apparently don't have to face that nightmare LOL.

But then we rescued a little piggy, and he did not self-regulate. It was really difficult to switch to timed meals, and we caved and kept putting the kibble back out.

Then we rescued our last kitty, and he came with a host of health problems. When our regular vets - who are both excellent - were unable to resolve his immune-system related problems, we searched for a vet also trained in Chinese medicine and nutrition. We found one, thankfully, that we can get to, only about 45 minutes away.

We discussed his issues, his diet, etc. One of the first things she said to us was - "Why on earth are you feeding your cats kibble?" We said because they're indoor-only, and my understanding was that in the wild, they hunt small mammals and eat many meals a day - their GI systems are structured for this. We had a long discussion about their digestive systems - and the bottom line is that cats have NO nutritional requirement for carbohydrates whatsoever, and no matter what quality of kibble you feed, it comes with more carbs.

It really doesn't matter what literature says what about whether kibble is healthy for them or not, IMO. The bottom line is that cats are carnivores. She basically insisted we stop feeding kibble, and we made the switch. We did a LOT of ingredient reading to ensure we weren't just switching to a canned food with lots of carbs - and going grain free does NOT guarantee low carbs (though it helps!). I use this calculator: http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

..And the difference in what we thought were healthy gorgeous cats was noticeable. :lol3: Our cats are mostly seniors too, and though they vary in size, they only need about 4 - 5 ounces of food a day. :nod: Your kitty will beg, bother you, and drive you nuts, because he loves food and is used to a lot more of it. You can bring the total calories you're feeding him down little by little, rather than all at once.

But whatever ratio you use - whether it's 50/50 or 100% one or the other - or anywhere between - at least focus on the total calories to help him get back to a healthy weight. And looking for a lower carb food is a good idea. ...Finally, be stronger than he is when it comes to his begging. :lol3:

Good luck!
 

auntie crazy

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It's a very, very common mistake, but when it comes to cats (and snakes, birds of prey and sharks), it is not the overall calorie count that's important - it's all about the source of those calories. As obligate carnivores, cats get their energy from animal protein, and all animal protein calories are converted into usable energy.

Cats have no biological need for carbs and have, in fact, lost some of the enzymatic pathways for processing them; thus, carbs (grains, fruits and veggies) are laboriously and inefficiently processed (stressing the digestive system all the while) and the calories from those carbs that aren't simply passed through to the litter box are converted into body fat, not energy - even when there is not enough animal protein in the diet to provide for the cat's basic metabolic needs.

It is fresh animal protein that powers the cat's physiology, and it is the presence of such that gives the cat the sense of "satiety" and lets her know when she can stop eating. And since it is ONLY protein calories that are converted into energy, you can switch a cat to a higher calorie diet and have her lose weight and be more active (healthier) if those calories are coming from more protein and fewer carbs. It happens all the time when cats are transitioned to canned diets from carb-heavy kibble products, and again, on a more striking level, when those same cats are switched from a canned to raw diet.

- - - - - - - - -

Not really about calories, but important enough to repeat for additional discussion: Carbs that aren't simply passed through to the litter box are converted into fat, not energy - even when there is not enough animal protein in the diet to provide for the cat's basic metabolic needs.

From the well-renowned endocrinologist, Dr. Peterson's latest article (Can Increasing the Amount of Fat or Carbohydrate in a Cat's Diet Compensate for Low Protein Intake?): "Because these feline hepatic enzyme systems are constantly active, a fixed amount of dietary (or muscle) protein will always be catabolized for energy no matter how much energy in the form of carbohydrate or fat the cat ingests."

In other words, every single cat that isn't receiving adequate amounts of animal protein in its diet is sabotaging its own muscles for the protein it needs just to power its body for another day.

Food for thought, eh?

AC

Edited to add "it is" in the third paragraph.
 
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ducman69

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We definitely all agree that cats are carnivores and low carb diets are a good idea.   
   As you see in my sig, there are several high carb full of veggies and horrible filler wet foods out there with by-products as first ingredients, and some great protein source high quality dry foods, so always gotta check those ingredients.  

But unless you're going to the extremes of the spectrum with a really junk wet or dry food, there is also no need to panic, as most kitties are quite flexible.    Overfeeding, and ultimately obesity and the health issues that carries, is usually the primary issue more than anything else.   Guacamole, whole milk, nuts, seeds, and fruit juice are healthy for people, but not if you're consuming 4000 calories of it a day and lounging in the house, heh.
But whatever ratio you use - whether it's 50/50 or 100% one or the other - or anywhere between - at least focus on the total calories to help him get back to a healthy weight. And looking for a lower carb food is a good idea. ...Finally, be stronger than he is when it comes to his begging.

Good luck!
Exactly, and the best thing when it comes to avoid begging IMO is a strict schedule.   
 
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sivyaleah

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Cute picture Ducman!

Also, I guess calories counts are essentially what I'm trying to get to.  

I don't know why the manufacturer's make it so difficult; human food has the counts on everything so why don't they put this information on the cans of cat food also?  It would certainly be helpful.
 
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otto

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Some brands are starting to put calorie counts on the cans. You can check websites for that information, too. Remember as AC said, the quality of the calories are more important than the quantity.

Weruva and Soulistic are grain free brands that are low in calories but have a decent protein content. They are made by the same manufacturer.

One thing to remember, cats should lose weight very very slowly. It is extremely dangerous for a cat to lose weight too quickly. No more than a pound a month, and ideally even slower, a half pound a month at the most.

I recommend a vet check up with blood work if you haven't done that yet, to make sure all is healthy with his organs, and to make sure he doesn't have diabetes, before you start trying to reduce him too much.

Casper is lucky to have landed with people who care so much.
 
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ducman69

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A kcal and a Calorie are the same thing in the nutritional world, and these are posted on the bag or can of food. 


So lets say you wanted to start out at the 250 kcal/Calorie a day point so weight loss isn't too fast, and lets use Blue food as an example.
50% DRY FOOD (125 Cal):

Checking the back of a bag of Blue Wilderness Duck DRY formula, we see it is listed as:

DRY Calorie Content (ME Calculated, as fed):  3,683 kcal/kg, 391 kcal/cup

If doing 50% dry food, half of 250 Calories a day, you would want 125 Calories of dry.

You can calculate 125kcal divided by 391kcal/cup to get cups fed, which would be a tick under a 1/3rd cup of dry.   Or you could weigh the food and calculate using the 3,683kcal/kg measurement. 
50% WET FOOD (125 Cal):

Checking the back of a can of Blue Wilderness Duck WET formula, we see it is listed as:

WET Calorie Content (ME Calculated, as fed): 1,304 kcal/kg, 111 kcal/can

If doing 50% wet food, half of 250 Calories a day, you would want 125 Calories of wet.

Easiest is that a 3oz can is reasonably close enough to 125 Calories/kcal, just feed the can and toss a couple greenies or other snack.   A 5.5oz can you'd do half to 2/3rd of a can a day.
The food also doesn't have to be ALL the wet and ALL the dry in one feeding.  Smaller meals are less convenient for you, but less likely to throw up and get really hungry IMO.  We do two wet meals and one dry meal autofed, so I only have to be home for feeding time twice a day. 

And if the weight loss is too fast, adjust slightly up on Calories, and if too slow, then down a bit on Calories.  Recommendation is not to exceed more than 2% body weight loss a week IIRC, else there is risk of fatty liver disease from rapid weight loss in chubby cats.  
 
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sivyaleah

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We've already had blood work and lots of tests done on him and everything is good.  Other than the UTI he had a few months back that is.  The vet mentioned that male cats do get them more frequently than female cats and at his age, it wouldn't be all that unusual.  He did suggest a change or diet - although it was not specifically mentioned to delete kibble entirely from it.  In fact, he thought the one we are giving him is good (the Blue "Basics").  Anyway, there were no crystals found, or other obstructions.  We seem to have caught it rather early (recognizing some odd behavior in him) and it never even got to a point where he wasn't using the box.  He was put on antibiotics and it cleared up nicely within a few days and no problems since.  

And yes, he landed in a very caring home.  While his original owner adored him to no end, but he wasn't very "up" on cat health or care.  He hadn't taken him to the vet in years so we had to get him up to date on his shots and of course, have him tested for disease as he used to be an outdoor cat.  Thankfully, he was healthy.  He was even still using the small litter box that he'd been using since he was a kitten (he gave it to us when Casper came to our home).  He never wore a collar (not great for an outdoor cat), and wasn't being fed particularly good food (although may have been supplementing himself on outdoor prey).  He was very well loved, and hence a very social cat but certainly could have had more attention paid to his overall well-being because as we all know - love is not a cure all for other potential problems.

BTW, someone mentioned the Blue with the duck in it?  It's the only flavor my cat has turned his nose up at!
 

ducman69

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BTW, someone mentioned the Blue with the duck in it?  It's the only flavor my cat has turned his nose up at!
Hah, yeah, well there is no accounting for individual tastebuds heh!   The same formulas should work for any other food though too.   If you buy from Petsmart, they will take opened bags of food back that kitties didn't like no questions asked.   Just make sure its not like 90% empty when you return it, heh! 
 

just mike

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I noticed this thread late but I've been away almost 3 months.  I totally agree with Ducman and Auntie Crazy regarding calories etc.  FWIW, the Waltham Center for Pet Nutrition suggests that if you are going to feed a mixed diet, 80% wet to 20% dry is their recommendation.
 
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