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How Low is Too Low (Bone)

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Ritz is prone to constipation and colitis (blood on stool), always has been, whether I was feeding her Fancy Feast or now when I am feeding her Raw and Commercial Raw.  She is currently eating two ounces of commercial raw and 3 to 3.5 ounces of raw + organ (kidney) + liver, soon to be one ounce of CR and 4 oz raw.  I feed her around 1.47 ounces of bone a week (7%), from quail and rabbit, and even that percentage may be too high.  Ritz has gingivitus, so she really does need to chew bone and I know egg shell is temporary work around at best.

When she's not constipated, her BMs are fairly long, wet looking, like a tootsie roll.  So my question is:  what is the minimum amount of bone I can feed her?  What organ meats or meats are less constipating than others?  Is there a corelation between constipation and expressing anal glands (she has that problem too). Would an increase of fat (horrors!) make things run more smoothly?  She likes every kind of raw meat so far including venison (pork may be the exception).  The chicken tends to be very lean and I trim visible fat from the other meats/poultry I feed her. 

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

post #2 of 17

How often does she get constipated and is it only within a day or two of you giving her bone? 

 

Do you give her the bone all at once or spread throughout the week? If you give it all at once it may well cause her stool to be too dry. She can only absorb so much calcium at a time, the rest will be excreted. If there is too much bone in the diet, feces will be whitish. 

 

If you are giving her a commercial, balanced raw food, you don't need to give as much bone (and organs) as you would otherwise.

 

 

post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 

I give her one around twice a week, and in this case, it was about two days after giving her some bone.  I'll see what she does today.  She  does occasionally rub her bottom on the rug; if she starts doing it consistently, I take her to the vet to get her anal glands expressed.

The feces wasn't chalk/white, it was a light tan.

I base the 1.47 ounces of bone a week on feeding her three ounces of raw a day.  Can I go lower?

Thanks.

post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritz View Post

I give her one around twice a week, and in this case, it was about two days after giving her some bone.  I'll see what she does today.  She  does occasionally rub her bottom on the rug; if she starts doing it consistently, I take her to the vet to get her anal glands expressed.

The feces wasn't chalk/white, it was a light tan.

I base the 1.47 ounces of bone a week on feeding her three ounces of raw a day.  Can I go lower?

Thanks.


I've heard as low as 5% is OK. I feed a ground formula and base the amount of bone on the calcium to phosphorous ratio so I can't give you an answer in % of total terms. I'm sure else will come along soon who can.

 

I was thinking if she gets constipated frequently, like once a week, you could stop the bone entirely for a couple of weeks and see if it stops happening.

 

How old is she? In youngish cats, anal gland problems are frequently because of a loose stool, not a dry one. 

 

post #5 of 17

I just adjusted one of my recipes to get the minimum 1:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio it came out to 7% bone.

post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 

I've heard about the calcium to phosphorous ratio calculation--chicken wing isn't that great because of the ratio, which is one reason I do quail and rabbit.

Ritz is around 2.5 years old (rescued after surviving a 20 inch snow storm so not sure of her age).  She has to get her anal glands expressed about two or three times a year.  I too am surprised she has anal gland problems given her stools tend to be normal to hard, not soft.

Her enery level is fine, always hungry in the evening.  5 to 5.5 ounces seems to be the amount she needs to shut her up.

post #7 of 17

Did she get constipated before starting on raw? If so, does your vet having anything to say about a cause? Ditto with the glands.

post #8 of 17

Hi, Cindy!! I've been thinking about you lately and wondering how Ritz was doing, so I'm tickled that you popped in here.  :-}

 

First, cats actually require a good bit more fat in their diet than we do, around 25% - 35%, so you don't have to trim off as much as you think you should be (and I would recommend you stop trimming so much). Fat is good for a lot of things, including prevention of constipation, so leave it on.  :-}

 

I'd like to know where you get your chicken from, as chicken in general is supposed to be a fatty bird and every chicken I buy certainly is!

 

Too much organ in any given meal can cause loose stools, but how much is too much is cat-specific (my cats never get more than one ounce of organ in any given meal, and it's always balanced with an ounce of meat). How much bone is too little / too much is also cat specific... I can give you the range of bone percentages recommended (5% - 10%), but I can't tell you Ritz's specific minimum.

 

Anal glands are expressed, normally, during healthy poopings. Loose stools might not apply enough pressure, while constipation provides none until the kitty poops (that's my understanding so far).

 

AC

post #9 of 17
Thread Starter 

Hey AC, I was hoping you'd chime in.

Mschauer, yes, Ritz was constipated before she was on raw.  At one point the vet suggested I increase DRY food for fiber and decrease wet until I said, no, she has constipation not diarrhea.  He hasn't expressed an opinion as to why her anal glands get impacted and she gets constipated, just kind of shrugged his shoulders, said maybe "genetics" (like, gingivitis), . He blamed her UTI's on diet, even though she has always been on wet food (seafood!) with a minimal amount of dry food, before switching her over to 100% raw.  The relief vet she saw in October diagnosed her with stress-induced FLUTD.  Feliway worked wonders.  My friend (who rescued Ritz almost two years ago today) is an acuupuncturist; I may have her give Ritz a treatment for the constipation.

AC, my twin sister (who loves dogs but because she loves me, she loves Ritz and wants to buy her something....) gives me lean organic chicken.  When I buy chicken, I buy Cornish Hen because the bones are small and I have limited freezer space.  I feed my 12-member feral cat colony any excess skin and fat from the poultry/meats I buy.   Ritz gets a little liver and kidney every day.  I know that the guidline for bone percentage is 10%--start with that and adjust according to the cat's needs.  Knowing Ritz is prone to constipation, I started with 7%.  As I stated, she gets two ounces of commercial raw, mainly Furry Foodie, a local brand, and RadCat.  She doesn't like the consistency of Nature's Variety.  Do you recommend I drop the percentage to 5?  Other than an increase in fat overall and other than kidney, is there a meat that softens stools?  Ritz hates pumpkin or any vegetable except cat grass (which I leave out 24x7).

If you remember my previous angst-ridden posts, I am still (overly?) concerned about how much she eats/weighs (poops). I have a scale, but can't figure out how to clear the memory, and, I'm afraid, trust my eyes more than the number. 

I am starting to feed Ritz 2.5 or 3 ounces of raw when I get home from work, instead of spreading it out over an hour or two.  She doesn't meow as much when I do that.  I sometimes give her a small chicken heart before we go to bed if she seems hungry or has played well.  (Rule of thumb:  meow for ten minutes and quit, she's playing me; meow for 30 minutes, she's hungry).  I'll try giving her a little more fat and see if her poop becomes softer and her hunger lessens.  I know when she thinks she's had enough food, it's like a light switch comes on and she is raring to play (or, sleep). 

Thanks.

 

 

post #10 of 17

Sounds like things are tons better than they used to be; I'm so glad to hear that! heartpump.gif

 

So as not to overshoot the mark, make one change at a time, wait a week, then make another change as you need.

 

Feeding 1.4 ounces of bone, per week, for a total of 21 ounces of meat per week is, as you say, exactly 7%, so the bone percentage is dead center of the recommended range.

 

The fat being fed, however, is on the low end. Cats get their energy from both fat and protein, so my recommendation is to change the fat / meat ratio to include a little more fat and a little less meat every day (so your total fed of 3 ounces doesn't change, just the composition of those 3 ounces).

 

In case you need help finding fat - chicken skin is, usually anyway!, fatty.   ;-}  And, no, meat doesn't generally affect stool consistency, not like organs, bones or fat.

 

Good luck! Come back and let us know how it goes, ok?

 

AC

post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thanks for your all's inputs.

And for the reminder to do one change at a time, not both!

I'll try increasing the fat a little, for example, not cutting off the visible fat from the chicken heart.

And still feed her about 1.4 ounces of bone a week (two or three times a week).  I love the sound of crunching bones.  (Santa Claus is bringing her some live crickets.)

As an aside, I would think stress would cause constipation, just as it does UTIs.  I'm bringing home a super affectionate cat tomorrow for a few hours (long story) and while they of course won't see each other, they will smell each other.  I'm giving Ritz some Bach's Remedy (and extra lovin').

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted ad nauseum....

post #12 of 17

 

Originally Posted by Ritz View Post

...

And still feed her about 1.4 ounces of bone a week (two or three times a week).  I love the sound of crunching bones.  (Santa Claus is bringing her some live crickets.)

...

 

Just for clarity's sake - you are feeding her a little bit of bone "two or three times a week" for a WEEKLY TOTAL of 1.4 ounces of bone, correct?

 

AC

post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 

AC, yes, absolutely:  1.4 ounces per week, not per 'dose'.  Her BM yesterday was a little bit more normal, especially in shape, but kind of hard to break apart.  Yeah, things we do, touch for our furbaby!

post #14 of 17

Ok, just checking, Cindy! LOL!!

 

Here's what a raw-fed kitty's waste should look like:

 

"This is a picture of feces from 2 separate bowel movements from my cats.  In other words, an average bowel movement from my cats is half this volume.  I crushed 2 of the fecal pieces to show how dry and crumbly it is.  The feces from my cats also has very little odor!" (Making Cat Food, by Dr. Pierson)

Raw%20fed%20-%20fecal%20consistanc%20copy.jpg

 

 

Left = homemade diet.............Right = canned food diet. Take my word for it....the one on the left = very little odor. The one on the right = very stinky.

Homemade%20vs%20Canned%20poop.JPG

 

How's that for a nice visual? biggrin.gif

 

AC

post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 

Yeah, that's one thing I am definitely glad about:  no more odor!  She pooped last night too.  STILL think she eats too much.  But as someone wise said recently, it's not the worst thing if your cat is one pound overweight.  And as someone said in these forums:  I'd rather have a fat cat than a dead one.

Today is when I prepare food for the week for Ritz.  I bought a whole chicken (not cornish hen) to cut up, will make sure Ritz gets some fat.  And the day the ferals get some extra fat and raw meat/bone.  Hey, it's Christmas!

post #16 of 17

Are you regularly weighing Ritz? If not, you should be.

 

You know your perceptions are skewed by your own body image problems. If you rely solely on those perceptions, you run the risk of subconsciously nibbling away at the fat content and / or total volume of food you're feeding Ritz. If you weigh her, you have something solid to look at that you can use to reinforce the need to continue feeding her precisely as she needs to be fed.

 

There is a thing called "diet creep" that happens when cat owners lose focus. For instance, folks think to themselves, "Oh, I ran out of kidney, I'll pick some up later." and then never get around to it. Similarly, the variety of meats they offer - a very important requirement - slowly shrinks over time as they get busy and start putting off whatever is required to get the most difficult to source meats.

 

This is a normal, natural occurrence that we all must be aware of, so - knowing your own perception issues - you need to be doubly on guard. heartpump.gif

 

Regards!

 

AC

post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 

AC and others:  yes I'm aware of this and am trying not to do it.  I do weigh every morsel that goes into Ritz's mouth; otherwise, a 2 ounce piece of meat may one day look like 3 oz and another day 1 ounce.

If anything I feed her too much.  I'm a sucker for her meows.

I weigh her but don't like seeing what I think I'm seeing on the scale--weight gain of around two pounds in three months. Plus she doesn't stay still long enough for me to get an accurate reading.   I'm hoping a friend of mine will come over, see Ritz and give me a reality check (the same one who rescued Ritz and said when I asked her to give Ritz an acupunture treatment that instead I should try increasing fat content.)

It's hard.....

PS:  my nephew is giving me some raw ground venison today, which Ritz loves.

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