Peeing outside the litter box

Hi, new here! Been reading through the forum getting good info but I don't see my exact situation so here goes

i have 2 cats, we've had them about 14 years. They've always used the litter box properly until this summer when one started peeing outside the box....literally steps from the box. We took her to the vet, she was diagnosed with diabetes. We boarded her for a while, as we were heading out of town, and they got her blood sugar under control. Brought her home but she stopped eating. Stopped the insulin, brought her back to the vet. Lo and behold, no more diabetes. Peeing outside the box resumes. 2 months later, still peeing, brought her back to the vet to make sure all is ok, which it is - no diabetes, no UTI etc. vet says we're dealing with a behavioral issue. That's where you guys come in!

we have 2 boxes (have tried 3), kept spotless.  Trying to clean up the pee on the carpet. Now using wee wee pads. She literally pees just outside the box, will poop in the box. How can I coax her back in. I feel like a lot of the aversion methods won't work here because I need her to pee in the same area, just in the box (can't relocate the boxes). 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much for getting back to me. I will try and answer your questions best I can. While I am not averse to a behavior expert, of course I'd love to solve on my own.

As far as the diabetes goes, the vet really has no explanation. She says that it's not uncommon for some cats to regulate, she admits not usually after 2 weeks! I did change both cats to a canned food diet from dry because all my reading lead me to believe it was healthier overall, so that's what she's eating now. It is a bit frustrating - I'm happy she doesn't have diabetes, but confused as to how this has played out.

On to the litter:

We use a large open pan, with World's Best Cat Litter, filled about halfway. It's scooped daily and completely changed every week or so, or as needed. This is how we've always done it and in 12 years, not had a problem using the box. When we first brought Gem home (she was the second) we got a second box, but it was not being used at all so we ultimately got rid of it. We only added the second box when all this started (same box, same litter)

We live in a NYC apt and have a small room off the kitchen that we use as a home office (not too much traffic). That room has a small bathroom (not used much) and the box is in the corner of that bathroom. The second box is right next to the first. Hard to tell which box Gem is pooping since we have 2 cats!

No changes to the household or litter when this all started.

Gem is the younger of the 2 but bigger..I guess they fight and play as you'd expect.

Hope that helps. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Right now we are using wee wee pads as the carpet in the office is trashed, and she does pee on them. We've tried to clean the carpet but I know it's not been done as thoroughly as it should so that doesn't help. I've ordered a bunch of cleaning supplies and a black light so hopefully we can get it fully cleaned. The vet also suggested Feliway, which I ordered and am waiting for.

Thanks so much for reading this, and your help!

Hi, thanks for the response!

Makes sense about separating the boxes. I have to see if I can come up with another suitable place - one that's out of the way, for the cats sake and ours!

She is literally peeing 2 steps from the box. I've read about putting food in that area but not sure that will work in this scenario as ultimately, this is the place that makes the most sense for the box to be. How much space does there need to be between the "eating" area and the "elimination" area?

I will definitely read the article about the cleaning. I've read lots of stuff (maybe even that one!) and I know how important is it to get rid of everything. One confusing thing though - how do I build up an aversion to going in that area if that is the area where I need her to go?? Does that make sense?? 

The vet recommended Feliway as she thinks it may be an anxiety issue...I guess it can't hurt as part of the grand plan!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne 

You're absolutely right, we do have a unique challenge here in terms of location, so I wouldn't use aversion methods here. We also have a second cat to consider - last thing we need is for him to stop using the litterbox!

 

As for the distance between the litterbox area and feeding/play area (sometimes referred to as nesting area) - the more, the better. That's actually a very common mistake where cat owners designate an area in the house "for the cat stuff", often placing food and water right next to the litter box.

 

I have another question - how large is the area where she does pee? Is it always at the exact same spot or spots? Have you tried locating a litter box, even a small one, right at that point? Again, not as a permanent feature, but to see if it would make her use it.

Yeah I don't think I have enough space in that room to have enough separation between the food and the litter box. 

She basically pees in the same spot. We did try putting the box right there but she just pees right next to that box, extending the range of stained carpet :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RagdollAngel 

It looks like most suggestions have been made for resolution, however like any problem I think you need to figure out the source of the problem.  I have three cats and one of them periodically will pee/poop outside of the litter box.  It is very sporadic and very seldom.  We have boiled it down to anxiety if we are gone for long periods of time (overnight) or sometimes when strangers to her have been in our basement.

 

 

Unfortunately we have not been able to pinpoint what is causing it. We thought it was diabetes but then turns out she doesn't have diabetes. There have been no major changes  in our household, just the usual craziness!

Updating the situation - things are getting worse. I have worked on cleaning the carpet, though I think at this point, we may have to take the carpet up or have it professionally cleaned. I moved the newest, most thoroughly cleaned box to the are where she generally has been peeing, added Cat Attract to the litter, put a Feliway diffuser in the area. To no avail...not only is she peeing right outside the box, she has now found a spot in my bedroom (also carpeted) to pee in. She does this right in front of me!! I am getting really angry and frustrated. I don't know what to do, and I feel bad getting mad at her, but it's really out of control now, and my apartment is starting to smell.

Any more ideas??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne 

Thanks for getting back to us with the update - I am sorry things aren't working out!

 

I wouldn't put Feliway near the box. With the Feliways spray at least, you aim at using it where you don't want cats to go.

 

Other than that, I think it might be best to call in a cat behaviorist at this point. Seeing the cat and the area is different from answering through a post on the board, and a behaviorist can work with you closely to resolve the issue. Let me know if you need help locating a specialist in your area.

Not sure my husband will be on board for a kitty shrink :) but I'm happy to get some recommendations - I live in NYC.

I'm a little confused with the Feliway - I know it's a calming agent but also a deterrent. How do you best use this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy 

I'm so sorry you're going through all this, Jkbank.  Elimination problems are definitely one of the most difficult to deal with!

 

On the Feliway diffusers - they work by calming the cat, but to really be effective, you should put one in every room the cat frequents, not just near the litter boxes.

 

As for potential causes for your kitty's problem, I would recommend you have a cystocentesis done to definitively rule out urinary tract infections or the presence of crystals. Since you were feeding kibble, the kitty's urine may have been concentrated, which could - and often does - cause a concentration of struvite crystals (which are normally found in cat urine, albiet at very low concentrations). Too many crystals can cause an irritation of the cat's bladder, called cystitus, which is very painful and can cause the cat to pee in odd places in an attempt to get away from the pain.

 

Getting as much water into the cat as you can will help, but if crystals and / or cystitus is the problem, you will also need pain medication and, possibly, some canned (not kibble!) prescription food to help break up the crystals.

 

Cats also react to stress by getting bladder inflammations. Had there been any changes to your routine shortly before she started peeing outside the box (I know you boarded her afterward)? Has there been any since then? A change in work or school schedule? Any construction in the home or in the neighborhood where it could be heard? Any extra cats or other animals hanging around close to the house?

 

For stress-related cystitus, pain medication, Feliway and perhaps some other type of feline "relaxant" might be in order - your vet will know - as well as, of course, lots of water.

 

You can get extra water into her by mixing a teaspoon of warm water into her canned food.

 

Good luck!!!!!!!!! I'm sending many, many get-well vibes to you and your kitty!

 

AC

Thanks for your thorough response. Is a cystocentesis something the vet would automatically do? I know she did urine tests etc to make sure there were no medical issues and said she didn't find anything.

There really were no changes when this all started. We live in NYC so noise is sort of the status quo! The only reason we boarded her was due to the diabetes diagnosis - the vet wanted to make sure we got her blood sugar under control and we had a vacation planned. At this point the vet suggested looking into some anxiety meds for her so I may need to call and see what that entails. And ask her about the cystitis as well.

Thanks again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momofmany 

She's 14 years old and could be having an issue with arthritis. How tall are the sides in the litter pan? You mentioned that you use oversized pans - is she having a problem with climbing over the walls to pee?
At 14, she could also be having cognitive disorder issues. Some older cats just start to forget things that have been habits for their entire lives, and may form new habits that are difficult to reverse.
I had a cat with chronic bladder issues who started to pee on hard, cool surfaces like porcelain tile. My vet offered a suggestion to put tiles in the bottom of a litter pan for a while, and gradually add litter to the top of the tiles to get him used to litter again. In your case, you might try buying some carpet remnants, cut them to size of a litter pan and put that shallow pan (I'm thinking of a cookie sheet) in front of your box. If she starts to use that, add some litter to the pan to get her used to peeing in litter again. I know this sounds like a pain, and you would have to replace the carpet on a regular basis, but it will at least contain where she is going, and hopefully teach her to use the litter pan again.
If you try this, do all the recommended cleaning of the spot she used previously. I have great success with Nok Out, but you have to saturate it sufficiently to get it through the carpet, the carpet pad, and into the wood underlayment under the pad. If the smell is not coming out, pull the carpet back and use Nok Out directly on the wood, let it dry, then seal the wood with either Zinnser BIN or shellac. Zinnser BIN is a shellac based primer and is used by professional cleaners to seal in pet odors. Shellac products are the only thing that really works.

Thanks for all the great advice. I don't think she's having a problem getting in the box as she does poop in there (at least I assume she does as I don't see any poop around the house!)

I actually tried a similar method - she has been peeing on wee wee pads, and so I put a pad inside the box as well - no go! My other cat liked it, but he uses the box no matter what. Through all this craziness, if I've moved the box, he just adapts.

I ordered a bunch of different cleaners - Nok Out is one. I wonder if it's a problem that I've used so many different cleaners. I'm sure at this point I need to pull the carpet back, just not sure how to do that!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy 

A cystocentesis is a sterile method of obtaining urine. It's been my personal experience that the better vets will use this method first, as it doesn't take long and yields the most reliable results.

 

It should show on your payment receipt, or you can call the clinic and ask how the urine was drawn and tested.

 

AC

I looked on the most recent receipt and it says cystocentesis by ultrasound - is that what you are talking about? If so, I'm assuming it came up negative.

Updating again - need help

No improvement despite all my efforts based on advice I've gotten here. Using cat attract in the litter - nothing. Put foil down - she peed on that. Half my office is now covered in wee wee pads, but there are a bunch of other places around the apt where she's peed.

So here's my 2 options at this point

1) Take her to another vet to see if she's really ok. The vet we took her too is well regarded, and did tons of tests and stuff but who knows

2) Get a behaviorist in here since the vet, after not finding anything medical, said it's a behavior issue.

I want to help her, and I want to have my home stop selling like pee but there is a financial consideration. I know that sounds harsh, but we've already spent close to $4000 at the vet and gotten nowhere.

Thanks for any advice

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutroMike 

I agree with everything Anne has posted. You might try sprinkling some Cat Attract on your litter or mixing some of the Cat Attract litter with your regular litter.  That usually helps lure them back into the box again.  I used it with success to litter train one of my kittens that was doing the same thing as your 14 yo. Just my two cents.

Thx, I've been sprinkling Cat Attract in with the litter, doesn't seem to be doing anything :(