Need Reassurance that I'm Handling this the Right Way (a long rant about my daughter)

libby74 said:

@ Carolina: I do understand that she's part of the family, and I've always said that I wanted our relatives to keep their relationships with her.  I'm not really sure where this "her or me" mentality has come from recently, but I really don't like that about myself.  You stated that you thought she 'hurts the same way I do'---no, she doesn't.  I know her so well---I know she doesn't experience emotions the way most people do.  I don't know if it's genetic or a result of her first 4 1/2 years in an orphanage, but believe me, she doesn't feel things like other people.  And I've told her how much she means to me; when things started going sour between us I sat her down and told her flat out that no one in the world loves her more than her Dad and I do.  I told her there was only one person in the world that I loved more than her, and that was her Dad.  She knows how we feel.  I've actually written her a letter since she's been gone in which I told her that we love her and only want what's best for her, that we want her to be happy.  None of this has (seemed) to matter to her. 

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Libby, I still believe she does... Here is the thing.... People who goes through those experiences early in life are "trained" if you will, to block/not show emotions, as a survival mechanism. It is known that you "shape" a child personality on the first 5 years of life.... and her 5 first years were spent pretty much being defensive - trying to not get attached - trying to not love, to not show love, to not show emotions, to not cry, to not be a regular child..... just to survive. Yes, she is not a regular person. But yes, she has all those feelings.... She does.... What she doesn't know how to, is to externalize them. She doesn't know how to feel them, to show them. They are dangerous to her. She has a huge wall where she was conditioned to not cross.... and that is a massive wall. I have a very close person to me who suffered this, and has a very hard time with it as well.... She is today 67, and still hasn't gotten over internalizing her feelings. I can see the suffering inside, but she still doesn't know how. I imagine that at 22 she really really didn't have a clue of what to do with her feelings.

libby74 said:

This behaviour is what she does every single time she has a new boy in her life---his family becomes the center of her universe, to the exclusion of her own family.  This time, however, she took it to the extreme.

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This is not uncommon with teenagers..... not at all..... Does it make it right? nope. But man, it is so common. Here is the thing - a boy comes, and all of the sudden, she can externalize those feelings inside of her with him and his family. Why? Because it is a lighter relationship. Then it becomes a relationship that allows her to express herself in ways that she can't otherwise.... She can voice her feelings - why? They don't know her. She can be herself and it is not too hard for her. It is much easier for her to say "I love you" to this boy, then to say "I love you for you guys, who are her parents..... This relationship is new, fresh and has no luggage. If this guy doesn't correspond to her feelings, it's not going to hurt as much as if her parents don't.... Remember her conditioning early in life..... She is petrified of loving parents, then having her heart broken by them.... This boy/family, doesn't threaten her like that.... For her, who has all these deep, locked feelings inside, these relationships become all the more intense. It is all new, she can just be herself, without any expectations of her.... and without the fear of completely crushing her heart to pieces. And then the relationship gets deep.
It becomes a problem (BIG) problem, when the family gets against that relationship..... Because if she is really connected to him in these ways here.... The roots are deep, and all of the sudden she is fulfilling a need -a real need - and the family is threatening to take it away. Naturally, she will rebel.
Think about it Libby - This girl, like any of us, need to feel, need to cry, need hugs, need love..... You think she doesn't feel, but she does..... This boy gives this to her. You the parents might think that this boy is bad for her (and might be right, I don't know this boy); but he is giving her something vital - something good, something she gets nowhere else.....
I know she gets love at home...... But she doesn't know how. One of the reasons is probably because she built this HUGE wall against parents in the orphanage - for 4 1/2 years, she was taught to have no expectations. She was taught that parents would not love her. She was taught that parents left their children behind. She saw kids going to foster and coming back. She saw the heart breaking over and over again that PARENTS inflicted on their children. This kid is conditioned to block emotions from parents....
What you see as being selfish, unkind, and not having feelings..... I see as totally different..... I see as a defense mechanism. I see a very conflicted girl... Who DOES feel. Who DOES suffer.... Who must be so confused and feel guilty at times for being different as why she doesn't react the same way as everyone else..... I see a girl who was conditioned to not externalize her feelings - to block her emotions..... simply to survive with the least amount of suffering as possible. I see a girl who can love and feel - the proof for me is that she can love and have feelings for her boyfriend, and have a relationship with her extended family..... But unfortunately still doesn't know how to break through the biggest love of all, a parents love :heart3:

Libby, I hope one day you can see these things.... I think your girl needs help.... Therapy..... Maybe you three should look into family counseling..... But she has deep issues to deal with..... :heart3:

I've been giving your situation a great deal of thought.

Your daughter sounds truely broken.  Attachment disorders are a life long thing and there is no fixing that.

It seems to me that you have 2 choices to make now:

1.  Accept her for the way she is, flaws and all.

This means that you cannot expect to (or pretend to not expect to) get apologies or acknowledgement of any kind that she is hurting you (or has hurt you) with her behaviour.  You have to truly believe that she is giving you all that she has to give you, nothing more, or nothing less. And you need to look at it with gratitude instead of hurt and anger.

2. Cut her out of your life entirely.  Basically divorce her and have nothing to do with her ever again.

But remember, just because you divorce her, doesn't mean the rest of your friends and family will do the same.   So you will likely still hear about her, and run into her at family gatherings, unless you choose to isolate yourself from your entire family to avoid her. 

We all have our own tolerances. Your friends and family seem to be able to look beyond her broken-ness and accept her with her flaws and take whatever morssel of affection she gives them, while you feel you cannot.  But you cannot expect them to choose between you or her, because you may not like their choice (her over you).

If you decide to cut her completely out of your life, make sure you are doing it for the right reason: That you cannot bear the hurt that you feel by her lack of attachment / feeling towards you.  You cannot do it as a punishment with the hopes that she will one day come to her senses and come running back to you with her tail between her legs apologizing for her behaviour towards you. It seems that she isn't capable of that, and is giving all that she has to give already, and has nothing more to offer you. 

A co-worker has as daughter with an attachment disorder. She had a very bad childhood with a junkie mother and didn't get any love or affection or bonding. My friend adopted her when she was 13 or so.  I see how the girl  uses and abuses her Mom and Dad. Take, take, take. And gives very little in return.  But my friend has accepted that, unconditionally, and has learned to never expect anything more from her.  Every once in a while her daughter will give her a hug and say "I love you", and she does mean it, at the time.

I have an attachment disorder of sorts.  I did bond with my Mom and Dad and I am capable of giving love and accepting it.  However, I've been hurt so deeply by the death of my Mom and Dad that I never want to feel that type of pain again, so I tend to keep most people at arms length. It's also one of the main reasons I chose never to have kids. I just couldn't bear putting my children through that type of pain.  

Over the years I've let the wall down, but I always end up getting hurt and the pain is just too great for me.  So I tend to push people away when they get too close in anticipation of them leaving. I see myself doing it, but I am powerless to stop it. The fear of that type of pain is just too great.  I even do this with my cats.  I find that as my cats get older, that my love for them changes. I start separating myself years in advance in preparation of them leaving, so that when they do leave, I am hurt, but not to the degree I would have been had I clung to them with all my might right up until the end.

I do not envy your choices.  *hugs*

Libby, one last thought..... and this one will be a hard pill to swallow.... but....
Given her age and her history, she just might be pushing the limits, unconsciously, as a self defeating mechanism. She is trying to push you away, that way she is right - all parents, just like when she was little, abandon and hurt. This is not something she does consciously, of course.

Now, here is the thing.... and the hard pill to "swallow" - it can be sweet too, if you think about it:
You and Dave might hold in your hands the opportunity to prove her wrong and to break this cycle.... By sticking by her no matter what, and never abandoning her, she will realize she has gotten parents who don't abandon. Who she can count on, through thick and thin. She will push, and she will push hard. But I have it to me that this won't last long - a lot of this has to do with the age, and with her having the confidence that you will stick around.

On the other hand, if she pushes you and you go..... unfortunately, her fears will come true.... And her "truth" from when she was little, will prevail. And more unfortunately yet, the cycle might continue throughout her future relationships - with her own kids - as one thing I learned, is history repeats itself, when it comes to things like this.

I KNOW this will be hard for you.... VERY hard..... But IMHO you have a choice - you and Dave can make a choice..... She can't - this is really stronger than her. You can break this cycle - she can only with your help....

I understand everyone has their limitations, I do.... But I have no doubt you do love this girl and you want this to end....
IMHO you are the only parents she knows, and the only ones who can make a difference - it is going to be hard..... But I don't think any harder then right now. And it can make a real positive change - for all of you....

Ok....... I think I said all I had to say now - All the best to you Libby Hope things get better for the three of you, I really do.....

Carolina said:

Libby, one last thought..... and this one will be a hard pill to swallow.... but....
Given her age and her history, she just might be pushing the limits, unconsciously, as a self defeating mechanism. She is trying to push you away, that way she is right - all parents, just like when she was little, abandon and hurt. This is not something she does consciously, of course.
Now, here is the thing.... and the hard pill to "swallow" - it can be sweet too, if you think about it:
You and Dave might hold in your hands the opportunity to prove her wrong and to break this cycle.... By sticking by her no matter what, and never abandoning her, she will realize she has gotten parents who don't abandon. Who she can count on, through thick and thin. She will push, and she will push hard. But I have it to me that this won't last long - a lot of this has to do with the age, and with her having the confidence that you will stick around.
On the other hand, if she pushes you and you go..... unfortunately, her fears will come true.... And her "truth" from when she was little, will prevail. And more unfortunately yet, the cycle might continue throughout her future relationships - with her own kids - as one thing I learned, is history repeats itself, when it comes to things like this.
I KNOW this will be hard for you.... VERY hard..... But IMHO you have a choice - you and Dave can make a choice..... She can't - this is really stronger than her. You can break this cycle - she can only with your help....
I understand everyone has their limitations, I do.... But I have no doubt you do love this girl and you want this to end....
IMHO you are the only parents she knows, and the only ones who can make a difference - it is going to be hard..... But I don't think any harder then right now. And it can make a real positive change - for all of you....
Ok....... I think I said all I had to say now - All the best to you Libby Hope things get better for the three of you, I really do.....

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Libby, this post really hit home for me. I've known from the first time you chatted about your issues with your daughter that she was adopted from another country. I'm not sure I knew how old she was - if I did, it didn't "register."

Gary and I adopted a damaged teen. Obviously this led us to completely different expectations than you had adopting a little girl that grew up with you and Dave as her parents. But Naomi suffered from Reactive Attachment Disorder (among many other things), and Gary & I were in counseling, and we were in family counseling, and Naomi was in counseling. You had what you experienced as a close and loving relationship with your daughter until she became a teen - that troubled age for any child and parent-child relationship.

I know I've been one advocating that you put your foot down. But Tricia's post, Carolina's post, and Linda's post made something in my slow brain "click," and I have FINALLY realized that what you are dealing with is NOT an "exaggerated" problem of a normal "troubled" young adult. And that's the basis of the advice most people are giving. You are dealing with an emotionally damaged child, not capable of having normal relationships, through no fault of her upbringing. That damage was done before you adopted her.

Now - whether or not you have the emotional strength to deal with the problems your daughter presents is a different issue.

Did the family ever go for counseling? Was she ever diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder? It seems from your descriptions that there would have been no reason to seek counseling, and so no opportunity for this type of diagnosis to be made... but I'm 99% sure that's what you're dealing with. And in that case, Carolina's right. Pushing her away until she takes the first step will result in you having no daughter. And that may be the way you want it if you can't have a more normal relationship with her. But I doubt very much she's capable, without help, of that "more normal" relationship you seek. And even then, her relationship with you will never be normal. But it may be something that isn't always painful to you, though with RAD, there will ALWAYS be a lot of hurt. :heart3:

At the very least, I would seek counseling WITH Dave, with a counselor that knows how to work with people with RAD, so you can deal with your anger, and figure out how you want to proceed (or if you want to proceed) in managing your relationship with your daughter. :heart3:

Libby - I just want to give you a HUGE and ton of them. I have to agree with Laurie about the RAD. I did not know you daughter was raised in an orphanage as a baby. AWWWW bless you, Libby. My heart is totally breaking for her AND for you. This is going to be very difficult process and there are so many "other issues" that I am sure have happened that none of us know about. I know you know that we cannot give you all the answers or guide you perfectly, because you stated that in an earlier post, but we are here for you and want to help, be there for you, support you in anyway possible. :heart3: I really do think counseling would be the next step for me if I were in your shoes. Actually, Larry and I have gone to a few sessions to discuss the HOW on dealing with our adult daughter. And it has really helped keep Larry and I both on the same page. That is SO important that you and Dave proceed TOGETHER and make decisions together about how to go from here. I agree with Laurie too in that you have to decide if you even want to pursue this avenue, if you are emotionally strong enough to handle anymore. It is alright..... Sometimes, love is just not enough to make us put ourselves through more and more pain than we have already endured.

I just am so, so sorry for what you are dealing with in your life with your daughter. I fear, though, that she will not be able to change and come to you first. She just does not have the emotional "tools" to understand her wrong-doing's. As Carolina said, I do believe she has serious abandonment issues, unconsciously so. And she is unknowingly sabotaging ALL relationships in her life to save herself from ultimately being hurt down the road...(abandoned) by you, Dave, girlfriend's, and yes, even those boys.. (in her mind - unconsciously - this is how she is protecting herself) This pattern might NEVER change with her no matter what you do or no matter how you handle this problem. I think your daughter came to you with these deep, deep emotional scars as a child and no matter how much love and care you gave her growing up, those buried emotions are bound to come to the surface. I don't even think your daughter knows she has these serious emotional scars. You are a wonderful mother and are doing the best you know how to deal with your daughter. I am sure this has just torn you up inside and out . If you do get some professional counseling, then at least you can feel good about the next decision and step you want to pursue and that you have exhausted every possibility. A professional will be able to help you and Dave get a better understanding about your feelings and how to go from here. AWWWWWW Libby - I care very much for you and am so sad you are hurting so badly. Wish there was more I could do. :heart3::heart3::heart3::heart3::heart3::heart3:

First, let me thank all of you for your input.  I've read things that I hadn't thought of before, and that helps me look at things just a bit differently.

We did go to counseling as a family; our daughter has a huge problem with telling the truth.  It got so bad that we simply couldn't handle it anymore.  The counselor's advice?  Assume she's lying until she can prove she's not. (and believe it or not, that actually worked)   The only attachment problem the counselors diagnosed was that she attached to people (strangers) too quickly, something she still does

We know another girl of the same age who was raised in the same orphanage, and came to this country with our daughter.  We've kept in touch with her parents ever since the two girls arrived here; their daughter was diagnosed with RAD.  She now lives in a group home for young adults. 

This "unattachment" that she's exhibiting didn't start until about two years ago.  Before that, she was a loving, helpful child/young lady.  She hugged, she said 'I love you'---not just to us, but to virtually everyone in the family. She'd say, "Hey Mom, let's go out to lunch; I want to talk to you about something."  And she did, she'd talk to me about anything and everything.  She wasn't perfect, of course; like any teenager, she could be (and still is) self-centered and irresponsible.  For the life of me, I don't know what happened to change her from the girl she was.   I do believe that girl must still be inside her somewhere. 

Libby, everything you just described is uninhibted RAD. To a "T".

Libby, I know I sound like a broken record, but I really think the next best step is that you and Dave start learning about RAD, and that you seek counseling together to figure out how you want to move forward in your relationship with your daughter - or if you want one. :heart3:

Libby.... I had never heard of RAD before... Not of the terminology anyways (not raised here).
Anyways - I found this site, I am sure you can find many many more - what is interesting is that this is easy to read.... This boy was a pre-teen when he went to live with his uncle and aunt......... and that's when he was diagnosed with RAD, started therapy, etc.
This is written by that uncle.... It does totally fit your girl....
I do think Laurie is right... and that the therapist needs to be experienced in RAD - not just a family counselor....
Here you go - straight to the FAQ:
http://www.radkid.org/faq.html

libby74 said:

This "unattachment" that she's exhibiting didn't start until about two years ago.  Before that, she was a loving, helpful child/young lady.  She hugged, she said 'I love you'---not just to us, but to virtually everyone in the family. She'd say, "Hey Mom, let's go out to lunch; I want to talk to you about something."  And she did, she'd talk to me about anything and everything.  She wasn't perfect, of course; like any teenager, she could be (and still is) self-centered and irresponsible.  For the life of me, I don't know what happened to change her from the girl she was.   I do believe that girl must still be inside her somewhere. 

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The response of you and your DH is what changed. She got to that difficult "separation" age (teenager), and she couldn't understand - because she's not emotionally equipped to - what the problem was. Hearing it in words doesn't mean she "gets" it. And ultimately, thinking this was a "normal" (though extreme case) of "ungrateful, hurtful" daughter kind of situation, you forced her to make choices. To you, you see "unattachment." She sees rejection.

With uninhibited RAD, the problem isn't that you don't form attachments or that you don't like other people, that you don't get along with other people - it's that you're too friendly, too fast. Inhibited RAD is much easier to "spot," because it tends to come with more obvious problems given the lack of trust. But children with uninhibited RAD may seem quite normal, just friendlier to strangers - they're much more about trying to please as a means of manipulation. They tend to be sexually promiscuous, for instance. They say "I love you," but don't know what it means. Not necessarily because they haven't known love in their lives, but because they're missing that developmental ATTACHMENT with a care giver between the age of birth and 3 years old necessary to form "normal" human relationships later in life.

This isn't about how you raised her. It's about what happened to her before you adopted her. But at this point I truly believe she does not emotionally understand what she's done wrong.

I do hope that now that you know there's most likely a MUCH deeper issue at stake than "her behavior," I hope you and Dave can do some learning, get some counseling, and make decisions based on information you didn't have before. :heart3:

LDG said:

Libby, this post really hit home for me. I've known from the first time you chatted about your issues with your daughter that she was adopted from another country. I'm not sure I knew how old she was - if I did, it didn't "register."

I know I've been one advocating that you put your foot down. But Tricia's post, Carolina's post, and Linda's post made something in my slow brain "click," and I have FINALLY realized that what you are dealing with is NOT an "exaggerated" problem of a normal "troubled" young adult. And that's the basis of the advice most people are giving. You are dealing with an emotionally damaged child, not capable of having normal relationships, through no fault of her upbringing. That damage was done before you adopted her.

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jcat's post put it made the light bulb go off for me.

I agree that family counselling is the next step, and that the therapist needs to be experienced in RAD.  "Troubled teen" and "Rebellious teen" advice just doesn't cut it here because a child with RAD's brain is wired differently and the answers aren't as clear cut as "tough love." It's more about accepting limitations and working to gain trust without expectations.  In that regard, I'm out of my league and cannot offer any advice on how to best go about dealing with the situation, other than what I've already given above.  I really think that it has to come down to either accepting her flaws and all, or abandoning the relationship all together, which if I think about it now, only reinforces her ingrained belief that all people abandon her. 

So before you make any choices or take any actions, please speak with a counsellor.

I will do some research on uninhibited RAD and see what I can come up with.

Thank you all for the advice and the input.  I've thought about talking to someone myself, be it therapist, counselor, whatever; this may be just the kick in the butt I need to make it happen.

Oh Libby

I wish there was something I could add that hasn't already been said but I think it's pretty much all been covered. I wish there was a magic wand I could wave for you and take away all your pain

I am so glad you're looking at things a little differently, I think a therapist is a GREAT idea....here's me kicking your butt all the way to their office! I'm a huge believer in talking, getting it out there and seeing other people's views on things, our minds all work differently and after reading this thread it just proves that. I hope and pray that someday you guys can be a family again, until that day comes though you need to work on making yourself happy again, heal yourself then maybe someday you can work on healing your relationship with her.

I'm here if you ever need to vent or just to talk!

libby74 said:

I will do some research on uninhibited RAD and see what I can come up with.
Thank you all for the advice and the input.  I've thought about talking to someone myself, be it therapist, counselor, whatever; this may be just the kick in the butt I need to make it happen.

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Libby, I do hope you'll try to find someone trained to treat personality disorders. :heart3: Of course, talking to a therapist for yourself and/or with Dave is always helpful, but "just" any counselor or therapist won't necessarily be properly trained to help you navigate this. :heart3:

It sounds as though you are doing the right thing- I'm really sorry you're having to go through this.

Just more and a big huge !!!! I want you to know that I think you coming on here and "venting" has been the best thing for all concerned. From what I have read about RAD - which is new to me too - is that it really rears it's ugly head when the child reaches adulthood. I also want to say, although my daughter's issues are different from yours, is that my daughter also went from being a sweet, kind, caring, loving daughter and basically changed over the course of a summer - back when she was nineteen to twenty. The friend's she hung with, the partying, etc. etc. etc. Only until recently after this summer's event's has she started to see the light and understand and even ADMIT that she is selfish....... We are making progress but it took almost five years to even get started in the right direction. I think, until you all can get some answers and begin to totally understand the depths of what you are dealing with, you are at a roadblock.. of sorts. I really hope you are able to find a very, very good therapist to help you guide you through this maze you are all stuck in. Just wish you nothing but the best in this situation, Libby . I am here for you, anytime.....

Once more, thank you to everyone who has offtered advice, support, alternate solutions, or just a hug.  There really is no way for me to express how much it means to me that you have all taken time out of your lives to read my rant and tell me what you think.  I honestly don't know what to do at this point, but I've been given options to think about and believe me, I will.  My family didn't get to this point overnight, and  the problem isn't going to be fixed overnight.  I sometimes hit a wall, thinking that I'm all alone in this and that no one understands.  I realize that I'm not alone, that there will always be someone here to let me vent and offter their support.  The people at TCS are like my second family, and I don't know what I'd do without you.