Need Reassurance that I'm Handling this the Right Way (a long rant about my daughter)

Some of you may remember the trouble Dave and I have had with our 22 year old daughter, how she moved out without telling us she was leaving, moved in with a 16 year old neighbor right across the alley, told everyone in town that we kicked her out because we're racist (she's now living with her bf, who is of a different ethnicity).  I haven't spoken to her since February.  She waltzes into her Dad's place of business about once a month and says, "Hi Dad" as if nothing is wrong.  She did that again the beginning of this week, but this time brought her bf with her.  Dave told me said, "HI, how are you?" and just kept walking.

As you can imagine, the holidays are hard to handle.  We don't talk about our daughter much, mainly because I know how much it upsets Dave.  For some reason, she still seems to think that he is ok with everything that's happened, that I am the reason he doens't want anything to do with her.  I guess it's easier for her to believe that; otherwise she'd have to admit that she'd broken his heart, too.

Lately, I've discovered that my Mom has been pushing our daughter into family situations, sending her to the home of one of my brothers when his daughter's family was in town, having her drop by to see another brother who was here for a visit.  Apparently, she shows up and acts as if nothing has happened.  A niece told me of one instance where our daugher came by their house because "Grandma told me to" and disrupted that family's last night to spend together.  A nephew told Dave about another instance of her just showing up and hanging around all afternoon.    My MIL told us that she's come by to ask for family pictures and Christmas decorations.  (of course, she left a big box of decorations behind when she ran off; most of them were ornaments that said "Daughter", so I guess that's why she didn't take them)

I'm angry and I'm not really sure why.  It seems as if our daughter is suddenly wanting to be part of our family again, as long as it doesn't include Dave and me.( My FIL won't let her bring her bf to his house, and so far she hasn't brought him to my family's homes, either.)  I've told DH that he can have any kind of relationship with her that he might want, that I will do my best to understand and accept it.  On the one hand, if I never saw her again I think it would be ok.  On the other hand, it irritates me no end that she is initiating contact with other family members and acting as if she's (for lack of a better term) 'a member in good standing".  I guess I expect others to be upset with her because of what's happened between her and DH and me.  Logically, I know that's silly, but for some reason it's come down to a "her or me" mentality lately.  I know, I know, that sounds stupid, but I feel as if I have no support from anyone at the moment.  Well, except for my 2 best friends, who seem to be the only ones that understand how much I'm hurting and how angry I am about this whole situation.

I don't see a way to ever forgive her for what she's put us thru, especially the pain she's caused Dave.  I'm a big girl and I can (usually) handle all this bs.  I can have a good cry (like right now) and be done with it.  But, that girl has broken her Dad's heart, and I wouldn't forgive anyone who hurt him that way.  I don't see myself ever having a relationship with her again; the last time I talked to her, I could barely be civil.  I've had to harden myself again her just to get thru this, and that is just not me.  I'm the most emotional person you'll ever meet, I've had to distance myself as much as possible just to keep from curling up into a little ball and crying all day.

This child will NEVER admit she's done anything wrong; I have never heard the words "I'm sorry" or "I screwed up" come out of her mouth, and I'm confident I never will.  I don't know that I can ever forgive her for her selfishness and irresponsibility, but I can't even begin to try until Dave and I both receive a heartfelt, believable apology.   So, am I wrong?  Do I tell myself "that's just the way she is" and try to make things right myself?  Do I stick to my guns and wait for her to grow up and accept responsibility for her actions?  Do I hunt her down and kick her rear end and tell her to stop being so stupid?  I feel like an idiot---I don't want to see her, yet it hurts me that she's popping in on other family members.  I guess I need reassurance that I'm handling this properly, or I need someone to tell me that I'm not.  (one last thing, no one in my family has told me to forgive and forget)

I've been following your threads about your daughter and have always hestitated to put in my two cents, but here goes. I honestly suspect that you'll never get an apology or any real understanding on her part of what she's put you and your husband through. Children who weren't given the opportunity to bond with a parent/caregiver very early in life often have no insight whatsoever into other people's emotions, needs, values, etc.. Romania is a very poor country, and its orphanages were notorious for a very, very long time. The kids institutionalized there simply didn't have any real "attachment figures" and became emotionally stunted. I'm not saying she's a sociopath, but that she quite possibly doesn't "tick" like your average person because of her early childhood experiences, and no amount of love and understanding can quite make up for them. It's heartbreaking for all concerned.

Our daughter is actually from Bulgaria; the orphanages there were better than those in Romania, but you're right---there was no one to bond with.  She has never shown empathy for anyone else's feelings.  When my beloved kitty Belle died in my arms and I was absolutely sobbing, our daughter remarked "Mom, it's ok" in a truly sarcastic tone of voice. as if she had no concept of the pain I was experiencing. I've since come to the conclusion that she truly doesn't get it.  But does that mean I push down all the hurt and pain and tell myself that she can't help it?   Or do I wait and hope she'll eventually realize that other people have feelings?  

I've also realized that loving an adopted child, for me at least, was something that took some time.  I didn't just hold her in my arms for the first time and declare my undying love. There's a poem that I read years ago that reads something like this: " never forget for a single minute that you didn't grow under my heart, but in it."  And that's what happened for me. Now,  she's broken my heart, and I don't think I can let my guard down and give her a chance to do it again.  And seriously, it seems to me as if it doesn't matter whether she has me in her life or not.

Would she be keeping one foot in the door, so to say, by keeping in touch with other family members if she didn't care?

Wow. I want to give you a hug!   Here are my thoughts on your situation, for what they are worth. 

First, you did an amazing and wonderful, life-changing and karmic thing to adopt this girl, and give her what's probably her only shot at a loving and decent life.

You need to allow her have access to the rest of the family, even though she's not including you and your husband. She needs family right now; no matter how damaged or messed up we are, we all need to feel connected to someone. 

Try stay on good terms with your family, and keep the relationship you have with them separate from your feeling towards your daughter. Please try really hard not to judge them for responding to her, but they also need to understand that you are under no obligation to discuss her with them. Don't let it turn into a her-or-us scenario, you have control over that by staying in touch with your family. If she is only out to get what she can from them, they will realize it on their own soon enough. 

Remember that she has her own path to follow now, and her own lessons to learn. You have done everything you can for her, now it is in your power to let her go and don't let her be a negative presence in your life. Try to make her a neutral instead. You are under no obligation to her anymore, and she has no power over you.

Never give up, there's always hope. You don't want to put your life on hold waiting for it, but it can still be there. 

Pray for her. She's going to need more help than you or any other person can give her.

for you and your husband.

jcat said:

Would she be keeping one foot in the door, so to say, by keeping in touch with other family members if she didn't care?

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To be honest, that puzzles me.  She's been invited to baby showers and didn't go.  She didn't come to her cousin's wedding a couple of months ago.  I've had family members tell me that she's ignored them when they shop where she works, in some cases actually going into the back room to avoid them.  She and one of my brothers had always been close, and it took her 14 months to have any contact with him---and that, from what I've been told, was at my Mother's insistance.  She didn't contact my MIL for 9 months, and then it was to try to get money from her.  She doesn't have contact with her now unless she wants something.

 In a way I wonder if the newness of her bf's family has worn off, and she's decided she misses her own family---not enough to try to make things right with her Dad and me, but enough to have contact with the extended family. 

SwampWitch said:

Remember that she has her own path to follow now, and her own lessons to learn. You have done everything you can for her, now it is in your power to let her go and don't let her be a negative presence in your life. Try to make her a neutral instead. You are under no obligation to her anymore, and she has no power over you.

for you and your husband.

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I love that, I truly do.  That's how I've tried to handle things the past few months, but some days are just over-whelming. 

Truthfully hun, she sounds young, immature and selfish, and one day she is going to wake up and realize all that you're done for her and what she is missing without you and your hubby in her life. Until that day, stay strong, and know you've done NOTHING wrong! I adore you and your strength sweetheart! We're here for you.

Oh Libby HUGE to you today. I DO know how you are feeling, the anger, the sadness, the conflict in your heart and mind :nod:..... It is NOT easy by any stretch and we are constantly having to learn HOW to deal with a situation like this - like a knife in the heart :shame: I can tell you that I wouldn't want you to ever wait for an honest apology or heartfelt remorse for what your daughter has put you and Dave through. My daughter is almost 25 years old and has yet to really understand the error of her ways over the last five years and seems to just live each day like the past just didn't happen. I just don't get it either. There is no accountability :dk: If your daughter want's to stay connected to some family member's, so be it. It is not easy and it never will be easy, I fear. It is unfortunately one of life's constant battles we must face and somehow overcome in our own psyche. You cannot let her take you down to that dark place anymore. You have to draw that line and tell yourself you have done EVERYTHING for this girl - and she is the one who has chosen the wrong turn in life. You cannot punish yourself anymore emotionally over her choices. She is an adult - by age - not by mentality (I say that about my daughter) and you have to let her go and make her own way, choose her own path, make her own decisions - right or wrong, more wrong at the moment , and until she wakes up, grows up, takes accountability and responsibility, there is nothing you can do but what you are already doing. Stay strong with your decision - she must come to both you and Dave - sit down - and tell you how very sorry she is for what she has put you and Dave through. Until then, and IF when, you just have to manage your OWN feelings and Dave's, of course. And if your daughter tries to put a wedge and manipulate the situation with other family member's., they will see that and she will just be showing her immaturity in doing so. Most importantly, above all else, you and Dave have to be on the same page in regards to her. If she comes to Dave's work, I would suggest he do the same thing over and over, like he did a couple of week's ago. Treat her like just another person - unfortunately - superficial comes to mind....... I don't have all the answer's and have made some progress in dealing with my depression over my daughter. But it is a constant conflict in my mind. I am working on LETTING GO!!!!!! They are grown woman. We cannot mother them anymore - they have flown the nest - so be it - so fly away and maybe, maybe one day, she will fly back to make things right. But if she want's to hover around the other birdies in the family and you hear about it, try not to let it get your feather's TOO ruffled , I know it is very, very hard but it will make you stronger (at least that is what I tell myself :lol3...........

SwampWitch said:

Wow. I want to give you a hug!   Here are my thoughts on your situation, for what they are worth. 

First, you did an amazing and wonderful, life-changing and karmic thing to adopt this girl, and give her what's probably her only shot at a loving and decent life.

You need to allow her have access to the rest of the family, even though she's not including you and your husband. She needs family right now; no matter how damaged or messed up we are, we all need to feel connected to someone. 

Try stay on good terms with your family, and keep the relationship you have with them separate from your feeling towards your daughter. Please try really hard not to judge them for responding to her, but they also need to understand that you are under no obligation to discuss her with them. Don't let it turn into a her-or-us scenario, you have control over that by staying in touch with your family. If she is only out to get what she can from them, they will realize it on their own soon enough. 

Remember that she has her own path to follow now, and her own lessons to learn. You have done everything you can for her, now it is in your power to let her go and don't let her be a negative presence in your life. Try to make her a neutral instead. You are under no obligation to her anymore, and she has no power over you.

Never give up, there's always hope. You don't want to put your life on hold waiting for it, but it can still be there. 

Pray for her. She's going to need more help than you or any other person can give her.

for you and your husband.

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Libby, when I read your post, this was my reaction. I don't know that I could have worded it nearly as well as Cat did. :heart3: But you can't force your family to choose...

The real problem here is that you DO love her - but you don't respect her. Her actions and decisions hurt. They hurt because you care, and you wish she cared back. Only time will tell whether she's capable of caring or not. I don't know if it's a lesson she needs to learn - or if she faces what is essentially a mental illness. But she's an adult and responsible for her actions, and I do believe you've made it clear to her what she needs to do to repair the relationship with you and Dave. That she hasn't even said the words, whether heartfelt or not, indicates she's not ready to take even those steps.

:heart3:

Having seen my husband's family go through this I have one thing to say to you-------------------------Look at the time of  year.    I bet she is trying to get in good with G-ma and the others to get stuff from them during this gift giving time of year!

That is what my BIL does every year.  He has nothing for anyone until the holidays start coming around then it is dropping in on this one, calling that one.  All in hopes of one of them letting him come to their place.

Do what your husband needs/wants you to do.  NEVER let your guard down with her.  Civil is all any one should expect from you towards her.

There is NOTHING wrong in what you did or are feeling.  You took her in and loved her.  Now she does this to you?????  NOT FAIR!

Hugs to you!

Kim

Kailie said:

 I adore you and your strength sweetheart!

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Kailie, those are the niecest words anyone has said to me in a very long time.  Thank you so much for that

 

LDG said:

The real problem here is that you DO love her - but you don't respect her. Her actions and decisions hurt. They hurt because you care, and you wish she cared back.

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Laurie, I think that's a lot of what's going on with me right now.  But I'm also so very angry that it scares me sometimes. 
 

kimkats000 said:

 NEVER let your guard down with her.  Civil is all any one should expect from you towards her.

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Kim, you're right; the last time I spoke with her I was amazed at myself---didn't shed a tear.  I think that threw her off her game, because I cry at everything.  She didn't know how to react; she did, however, insist on arguing that we had kicked her out.   I actually have 2 different documents proving that she'd made plans to move out a week before she says we kicked her out, but the truth has never mattered to her. 

And Lauren, I think about you and your daughter so often, and wonder how your family is coping.  I feel awful for anyone who is feeling the same way Dave and I are feeling.  In my wildest dreams, I never would have imagined anything like this. 

I realize there really aren't any magical words of advice to get me thru this mess.  I think sometimes I just need to vent and rant and get it all off my chest; then I can settle down to a semblance of calm and get on with my life for a while.  You all are like a free therapist, letting me vent, listening patiently, then giving me advice, a cyber-hug, and a virtual pat-on-the-back.  I hope you all realize how much this means to me, and how much it helps. 

There are so many things I'm feeling as I read your post and the prior ones for the last few months about your daughter.

I'm wondering if the novelty has worn off, the whole thing with her BFs family and even the novelty of being a "victim" as she sees herself (and I do hope I'm making sense) . But chances are, you'd never get her to admit that she's made a mistake.

But it is the holiday season and it's very possible, knowing what I know of her history from your posts, that she could be just trying to get whatever she can get from everybody. Once the holiday is over, she may start to ignore everybody again. And then your heart is freshly broken all over again. And that's not fair to you.

At this point? You've done what you can. You took her in, you loved her, and you did everything you could for her. There's nothing more you can do. And you know what? If you allow her and what she's doing to weigh on you? You're going to let her control you whether she knows it or not. I know she's in the back of your mind and that of your husband's, too. All the time. It's natural. Because you love her and you want what's best for her. But the only way she can treat you like a doormat is if YOU let her treat you that way.

Let her go. Please. It's OK if she's in your mind and that you love her. You're her mom and that love never goes away. Let her go to the other family members. Try not to get too upset about it....that's difficult. But let her go. This is what she has chosen. Let her travel that path. Keep the love for her in your heart, but I think you have to let her go.  

I haven't got much to add as I have young children and thankfully have never experienced anything like this but sounds to me like you are doing exactly the right thing and I too think you are being very strong.You have put up with so much from her and if she truly doesn't think that she hasn't done anything wrong then let her get on with it.  xx

Libby, are you and DH getting any counseling help with this? A few sessions with someone may really help both of you become more comfortable with your decisions and emotions on this issue - especially now, this time of year..... :heart3:

libby74 said:

I realize there really aren't any magical words of advice to get me thru this mess.  I think sometimes I just need to vent and rant and get it all off my chest; then I can settle down to a semblance of calm and get on with my life for a while.  You all are like a free therapist, letting me vent, listening patiently, then giving me advice, a cyber-hug, and a virtual pat-on-the-back.  I hope you all realize how much this means to me, and how much it helps. 

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Libby You are a very, very special lady :heart3: and I hope you know this and believe this. It does help SO much to be able to just write ( TCS TALK ) here to us. I just want you to know how much I do care about you and what you are going through. I don't have the answer's..... but I do know how you feel and I know many other people who have issues with their twenty-something daughter's. It DOES help to talk about it and vent/rant/scream/cry and laugh :lol3:..... I am here for you, honey - we are all here for you :grphug:

Kailie said:

Truthfully hun, she sounds young, immature and selfish, and one day she is going to wake up and realize all that you're done for her and what she is missing without you and your hubby in her life. Until that day, stay strong, and know you've done NOTHING wrong! I adore you and your strength sweetheart! We're here for you.

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I feel so sorry for you and I have a sister that seems to act similarly. Even though I don't know the whole story, I know she was adopted but don't know at what age,   I hope by explaining how my sister is, you won't feel so alone in dealing with your daughter.

My sister is two years older than me and well, for the majority of my life our relationship, well her relationship with the whole family has been a little, turbulent.  We don't know if she's slightly bipolar, or if she has a very light case of autisim or if she is just a very wired person. My parents have always thought, she didn't act quite normal, even as a new born but we lived in a small town where the doctors always said, she fine and refused to do any tests. Well,  she can being happy one moment and you can say something that has no meaning to you but it just sets her off. I mean, you can say something like mentioning the weather and she'll think that you're trying to make a crack at her love life or something like that.   She, like your daughter, can never be in the wrong about anything. Even if she overreacts, she still thinks that you're in the wrong and not her but then 5 minutes later she'll act like nothing happened and she'll ask why you're so upset.   Like you, I cry whenever I'm upset, whether its anger or sadness and my sister has always got mad at me for it, saying that I'm just trying to get sympathy or trying to get out of the argument.  She could never just talk about what she was angry about, she would yell and through stuff and no matter what you said she only got more and more angry and irate. Not even my parents could stop her arguing and yelling.    She'd get made over my parents asking her to pick up her clean clothes off the couch after 2 weeks of her just adding more clothes to the pile and she would say they were nagging her.  When Happy Feet was in theatres, I took her to see it because I thought she'd enjoy it. It was great, we laughed and talked, we enjoyed to movie and enjoyed the walk back out to my car but right when her car door shut, she went off. It was like a switch was turned on (or off) in her head and she was yelling at me. Want to know why she was so mad at me? It was because I was single. I didn't have a boyfriend and she wanted to know why I wouldn't go out with any of her guy friends that she tried to set me up with. She couldn't understand why I would want to be single.  My senior year in high school and every other day I only had 2 classes then I could leave for the day. That morning my sister had asked if I remembered, if I could move her clothes from the wash into the dryer. I told her if I remembered, I would. Well after I got off school I had stopped by McDonalds and got some food to bring home. I had sat down in the tv room and got my food set out on the tray table when my sister came home. She was furious when she found out I hadn't done her clothes yet. She dumped my drink on my head and through my fries across the room. Anyways that gives you a picture how her temper is. That being said, she is one of the most generous people out there. She would break her back if it would mean someone's birthday went off with out a hitch and we have always and will always have each others back. Even if our relationship did end up with us not talking, if I heard she needed me, I'd be there in a heart beat. 

Anyways, it got to the point where I stopped going shopping or going to the movies with her because it would always end up with her yelling at me. I found my self literally afraid of talking to her or spending anymore time with her because I didn't want to get in another fight. I didn't want to end up hating my own sister so for me it was easier to not do anything with her. During fights, she would accuse me being a horrible sister and because I didn't even want to hang out with my own sister. I would try to tell her how much I hated not hanging out with her but I was so afraid of fighting, how I didn't want to risk ending up hating her because we always ended up fighting each time we hung out. How much she made me hate myself for things I didn't even do. How after I lock myself in my room and while she's pounding on the floor, I would literally be curled up in a ball trying to figure out what I had done to make her so angry. I would loose myself in my greif and I would actually as bad as it sounds, loose my logic and my sanity totally. I would dig my nails into my head and end up drawing blood, I would be in hysterics and nothing could bring me down, finally I would just cry myself into exhaution. Honestly, I had been a weaker person, I would have killed myself because how horrible and guilty she made me feel. Real quick I want to say that not all of our fights were because of her. We're sisters and lets face it ladies, we tend to like to poke each other's buttons when we're upset but despite the buttom pushing, she still overreacted to even a button pushed in a light heated fashion. .

Our fights pretty much never ended until I moved out and I think its safe to say our relationship is slowly on the mend now that we have our own space.  She's not officially living on her own but she's housesitting for an old friend's dad but even now she still says that it was my parents who made her take the job because they always nagged her and they wouldn't pick up things so she hasn't gotten much better.  My sister has gotten much better as she has gotten older, and she has slowly, very slowly begun to understand that she does/can overreact sometimes and she has actually begun to apologise to my parents when she realizes she got out of line or overreacted to something. Her temper is stil very volitle and we still have to watch what we say around her but she's finally starting to grow up emotionally.

So keep your chin up, don't give up hope and just make sure you let her know some how that even though she seems to be wanting her space right now, that you'll always love her and you'll always be there and leave it at that. If you don't think you could say it to her face, call her or even write a handwritten letter. You may not think she'd read it, but I'd bet she will even if she tries to deny it later. She'll come around eventually, my grandpa and his brother didn't speak for over 40 years before they realized that they loved and missed each other too much to never talk to each other again.  Please don't let your anger and greif take over and cause you to loose any chance of mending your relationship when the time comes. Until she comes around just contiue with your life, you could discretely make her realize how much she misses you guys by adding pictures of when she was little to her in cards during her birthday and holidays and just add something like, "I was going through some old things and I found this picture, I can't beleive you were ever so little!" or something like that. Usually when someone starts thinking back on the good things, the bad start to seem smaller.   I really hope this helped you feel a little better. I really hope everything works out for you and your family!  I'm sending my best wishes to you!

Libby,
I feel so sad to hear you both are still going through this.... There is nothing that breaks my heart more than to read these posts
It sort of hits close to home, in a smaller way I guess.... Anyways, here is the way I see it - it is different from the majority of the responses you get here, but it is my opinion for what is worth - I am going to quote your post -

libby74 said:

Lately, I've discovered that my Mom has been pushing our daughter into family situations, sending her to the home of one of my brothers when his daughter's family was in town, having her drop by to see another brother who was here for a visit.  Apparently, she shows up and acts as if nothing has happened.  A niece told me of one instance where our daugher came by their house because "Grandma told me to" and disrupted that family's last night to spend together.  A nephew told Dave about another instance of her just showing up and hanging around all afternoon.    My MIL told us that she's come by to ask for family pictures and Christmas decorations.  (of course, she left a big box of decorations behind when she ran off; most of them were ornaments that said "Daughter", so I guess that's why she didn't take them)

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It appears to me that she knows she is part of the family, and her family is opening the doors for her. Libby, this is a good thing.... Since this little girl became your daughter, she also became a niece, a granddaughter, a cousin.... That won't change... She still has a family, she is still loved and that's how it should be. What happened in between her and you, should be, IMHO, in between you two, or you her and Dave.... but please Libby, don't make this a "either her or me" - she needs a family, and so do you.... Love is a good thing for her.... Depriving her of it will do no good

libby74 said:

I'm angry and I'm not really sure why.  It seems as if our daughter is suddenly wanting to be part of our family again, as long as it doesn't include Dave and me.( My FIL won't let her bring her bf to his house, and so far she hasn't brought him to my family's homes, either.)  I've told DH that he can have any kind of relationship with her that he might want, that I will do my best to understand and accept it.  On the one hand, if I never saw her again I think it would be ok.  On the other hand, it irritates me no end that she is initiating contact with other family members and acting as if she's (for lack of a better term) 'a member in good standing".

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Ok, I bolded your post here so you can see what might be going on.... Have you considered that your family might be giving her a space to approach them that you are not giving? While they are saying "you are welcomed here" you and Dave are saying "you are not welcomed here, I will never forgive you, I don't want to have anything to do with you?". I know you might not be putting this into words, telling her this, but are you giving her the space to approach you? Think about it.... I do understand why she approached them.... Because she feels welcomed.... She doesn't feel threatened.... Understand, I am not faulting anyone here, but I just want you to try to put yourself on her estate of mind a little so maybe you can understand why she has approached them and not you....

libby74 said:

I don't see a way to ever forgive her for what she's put us thru, especially the pain she's caused Dave.  I'm a big girl and I can (usually) handle all this bs.  I can have a good cry (like right now) and be done with it.  But, that girl has broken her Dad's heart, and I wouldn't forgive anyone who hurt him that way.  I don't see myself ever having a relationship with her again; the last time I talked to her, I could barely be civil.  I've had to harden myself again her just to get thru this, and that is just not me.  I'm the most emotional person you'll ever meet, I've had to distance myself as much as possible just to keep from curling up into a little ball and crying all day.

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This relates to my comment above.... and also.... I can't count on my hands how many times I broke my mom and dads hearts when I was younger.... and vice versa. My dad is a very hard person to deal with, and just recently, because of a meaningless argument, he blasted "I am not your father anymore". This was just before I went to Brazil in September. Now, keep in mind, the last time he did this, was in 1996, and made me leave the country to never go back. This time, I went to Brazil, and was there for 2 weeks. I only spoke to my dad a few days before I came back - he is not doing well, and I was literally afraid of losing him. He did not say he was sorry, and we did not talk much about it. What I can tell you is, both times it happened, we worked out -because I know, in my heart, there is no one in this world who loves me more than my mom and my dad. Both times it happened, we both died inside, everyday. It was torture. Words like "you are dead for me" "you are not my daughter anymore".... they are spoken written.... but they eat you inside on both sides.... On yours and hers.... And the truth is, everyday that goes by, is a day lost with a person who you should really be saying "I love you more than anything in this World". Because Libby, truth is, that is what you feel.... There is no theory here of keeping the guards up.... She is your daughter, and you love her more then anything in this World.... Did she hurt you? Yes. Did she hurt Dave? Yes. But she is still your daughter, and nothing will ever change that.... Nothing will get rid of the pain that's eating you alive until you both get through this.... It is hard - believe you me - I KNOW. But it can happen, and I truly, from the bottom of my heart, hope it happens for the both of you

libby74 said:

This child will NEVER admit she's done anything wrong; I have never heard the words "I'm sorry" or "I screwed up" come out of her mouth, and I'm confident I never will.  I don't know that I can ever forgive her for her selfishness and irresponsibility, but I can't even begin to try until Dave and I both receive a heartfelt, believable apology.   So, am I wrong?  Do I tell myself "that's just the way she is" and try to make things right myself?  Do I stick to my guns and wait for her to grow up and accept responsibility for her actions?  Do I hunt her down and kick her rear end and tell her to stop being so stupid?  I feel like an idiot---I don't want to see her, yet it hurts me that she's popping in on other family members.  I guess I need reassurance that I'm handling this properly, or I need someone to tell me that I'm not.  (one last thing, no one in my family has told me to forgive and forget)

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Libby, it's not because people don't say, that they don't feel.... Trust me, she suffers.... She feels.... She hurts the same way you do.... You might never hear I am sorry.... You might not hear these specific words.... but you might have the apology through her actions.... I think there is so much love to be shared and enjoyed in between the three of you.... I do think she has had the time "to learn her lesson".... If there is such a thing.... Most importantly, I think this is the most valuable relationship she has in life... and trust me, she knows it. I truly believe that given the chance, with time and patience, everything can be just fine.... It seems that she is calling out for family, love is not a bad thing to give.... I don't think it ever hurts.... Love and family are always good, healing, nurturing things.....
Wishing you all the best Libby

@ TheMBCat:  our daughter is really nothing like your sister, thank heaven.  I don't know how you manged to live thru that.  Our daughter is actually just the opposite---she very seldom shows emotion when she's upset or something is bothering her.  I never even heard her get angry at me until she was 20, and it happened so quickly, and was so very out of character,  that all I could do was stand there with my mouth open.

@ Carolina: I do understand that she's part of the family, and I've always said that I wanted our relatives to keep their relationships with her.  I'm not really sure where this "her or me" mentality has come from recently, but I really don't like that about myself.  You stated that you thought she 'hurts the same way I do'---no, she doesn't.  I know her so well---I know she doesn't experience emotions the way most people do.  I don't know if it's genetic or a result of her first 4 1/2 years in an orphanage, but believe me, she doesn't feel things like other people.  And I've told her how much she means to me; when things started going sour between us I sat her down and told her flat out that no one in the world loves her more than her Dad and I do.  I told her there was only one person in the world that I loved more than her, and that was her Dad.  She knows how we feel.  I've actually written her a letter since she's been gone in which I told her that we love her and only want what's best for her, that we want her to be happy.  None of this has (seemed) to matter to her.  This behaviour is what she does every single time she has a new boy in her life---his family becomes the center of her universe, to the exclusion of her own family.  This time, however, she took it to the extreme.

I fully understand that all the advice and encouragement I've been given can only be based on what facts I've set forth.  I know that nothing can be done to fix this situation any time soon.  I sometimes wonder if anything can be done.  I've been told I take after my paternal Grandmother ( a woman I absolutely adored); Grandma NEVER forgot it when someone 'did her wrong'.  Whether that's wrong or right, I can't say; I just know that I'm apparently a whole lot more like Grandma than I thought.