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Struvite Crystals...UTI...so confused
- Thread starter catmom2wires
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Hi LDG,
Thank you. I will take a look at it. It could be very well possible that it is being used in the formulation for all of the above that we are both arguing for. Only the recipe makers will know for sure. I want to say that I am not disputing that it may provide value for organ support, but caution that it is not the only function or use for it. I will take a look at the safety report and I appreciate you providing the information.
Thank you. I will take a look at it. It could be very well possible that it is being used in the formulation for all of the above that we are both arguing for. Only the recipe makers will know for sure. I want to say that I am not disputing that it may provide value for organ support, but caution that it is not the only function or use for it. I will take a look at the safety report and I appreciate you providing the information.
Actually Choline Chloride IS a form of choline, that's my whole point. "Due to its established nutritional role in domestic animals, choline chloride is regarded as an effective source of choline." EFSA report, p. 2.
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Nobody said anything about magicThere is nothing magical about C/D. It has an acidifier added, to make up for the alkalizing effect of all those highly inappropriate carbohydrates, and the kibble has extra salt to try to get cats to drink more (in order to make up for the dehydrating effect of DRY food!). It just makes more sense to feed something cats were "designed" to eat in the first place rather than attempting to retrofit an inferior product to fix a health condition. If for whatever reason a cat can't maintain proper urine acidity even when fed the appropriate food, it's so much better to add your own acidifier to their diet. Otherwise you could just be swapping one health condition for another (you'd be amazed how many cats eating C/D come down with diabetes).
Oh, and anyone who thinks Hill's does all this wonderful unbiased research in the name of better health for our pets should read the book "Not Fit for a Dog
".
. Brillo, the cat in this thread, is raw fed, and yet, here she is with this problem. I'm no expert about raw feeding but I do know it can be very dangerous for cats with urinary tract issues if the balance is off even a little. So then you have to add some chemical to make it better?C/d may not be an ideal food but it does what it is supposed to do. My Mazy was on a canned diet when she first starting having urinary tract problems. I have, repeatedly, tried to get her back on a grain free canned diet. Whenever I do, she starts having problems again.
Sometimes it's about quality of life, for the cat. Do I want to constantly be running my cat to the vet for urinary tract problems? Have her always at the litter box, always feeling stress and pain? No, I do not. Cats live in the now. I want her to have the best life she can, now. For her, that means feeding her a less than ideal food. Because it does what it is supposed to do. Keeps her pH at 6.4 and keeps her urine free of struvite crystals.
My other three cats eat a varied, grain free canned diet. I wish with all my heart that Mazy could too. But, when she does, she gets sick. So I am very grateful that food is available to her.
By the way Hill's Prescription Diet is not Science Diet. Two different foods
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Hi LDG,
On an efforted skim of the paperwork what I read in summary is; they state what choline does and what its benefits are. It then states that choline chloride is a an acceptable bioequivalent. And then it goes on to talk more about choline more and how choline is necessary. Mostly what I am reading about is choline and not really anything about choline chloride except that it is acceptable to use in feeds. The only thing supporting why it is acceptable, is just stated so far as : it's a bioequivalent.
It is difficult to trust some of the science reporting these days. The US Congress declared pizza a vegetable and then in Europe, the big pharma beaurocrat "studies" declare there is no proof that water prevents dehydration (lol)
... oddly when I went to go look up "choline chloride in cleanser" via the search engine, an opinion report from the same place came up: http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_132.pdf
edit: I will throw this one in there too, particularly for the section on health effects at the most severe end.
On an efforted skim of the paperwork what I read in summary is; they state what choline does and what its benefits are. It then states that choline chloride is a an acceptable bioequivalent. And then it goes on to talk more about choline more and how choline is necessary. Mostly what I am reading about is choline and not really anything about choline chloride except that it is acceptable to use in feeds. The only thing supporting why it is acceptable, is just stated so far as : it's a bioequivalent.
It is difficult to trust some of the science reporting these days. The US Congress declared pizza a vegetable and then in Europe, the big pharma beaurocrat "studies" declare there is no proof that water prevents dehydration (lol)
... oddly when I went to go look up "choline chloride in cleanser" via the search engine, an opinion report from the same place came up: http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_132.pdf
Unfortunately they keep interchanging the word choline and choline chloride in different areas for both of the paperworks and it makes it very tasky to keep everything straight. Granted, the report I posted says that there is no little or no evidence that it would cause for irritation under a certain % in concentration (or something to that effect). I will note also out of the choline chloride opinion paperwork, there is no data submitted in all of the available sections to report its toxicity. There are so few real studies about cats, how can we say that it really may not cause damage or irritation over time to mucous membranes? And not even for all cats, just some cats who may be a little more sensitive.
edit: I will throw this one in there too, particularly for the section on health effects at the most severe end.
I apologize to everyone for the mixup in the food brands and the back and forth about the ingredient. I wasn't wanting to hijack the thread.
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The biggest thing here in my mind is a positive dX by xray or urinalysis. I might have missed a post and I apologize if I did. My mother has a stones kitty and I have a stones kitty so I do have at least a little knowledge of the area. My girl, a stray mackerel tabby cat rescued at around 4 weeks, at 3 yrs old had about 12 stones the size of small gems in her bladder by the time she showed symptoms, and she did NOT have an infection. She required emergency surgery the night she was dX'd if I hoped to save her, that was several months ago. She was on antibiotics only as a post-op precaution. It's important to identify the true problem, then educate yourself on dietary options. The rX foods are an excellent "holding pattern" food while you get to understand your specific situation. They may be an indefinite diet. My mother's cat has been off rX foods successfully for many years with no complications, on the other hand I don't dare take my recently dX'd kitty off of rX until I understand her case better. Both cases were confirmed 100% struvite stones with stone analysis.
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I too am surprised that a sample has not been taken directly from kitty, and urine culture has not been done.
It is not a "bioequivalent," it is a FORM of choline.
Yes, and olive oil is used in many natural shampoos. And if I get it in my eyes, it will hurt and irritate them. Just because a vitamin or essential nutrient is used in external cosmetic applications does not mean it's dangerous if ingested.
Again, because choline chloride is a form of choline.
That is a 5% concentration.
Cat foods that include choline chloride: Weruva, Blue Buffalo, Taste of the Wild, Newmann's Own, B.F.F., Innova, Evo, Before Grain, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select, Natural Balance, Solid Gold... and perhaps THE most "super premium," and certainly one of the highest quality cat foods there is: Ziwipeak. Yes, choline chloride is an ingredient.
Given that Natural Balance limited ingredient foods are the primary foods used by cats with allergies, I'm going to have to think that with choline chloride as an ingredient, it's not an irritant to cats, or they would continue having problems, not have their problems resolved.
This is by no means scientific, but in the Truth About Pet Food, choline chloride is listed as an ingredient in many of the foods, and it's not raised as a "red flag." http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ar...-pet-food-label-ingredients-–-the-basics.html
Yes, and MANY vitamins and minerals have horrible health effects - if you have too little, or if you have too much.
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(Text highlighting is mine.)Nobody said anything about magic. Brillo, the cat in this thread, is raw fed, and yet, here she is with this problem. I'm no expert about raw feeding but I do know it can be very dangerous for cats with urinary tract issues if the balance is off even a little. So then you have to add some chemical to make it better?
...
Just a slight clarification here - Brillo's diet has been half kibble / half raw. The kibble was only removed, and Brillo switched to a completely raw diet, a little over 24 hours ago.
AC
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Okay
I knew there was some kibble in the diet (TOTW) but I thought it had been longer than a day since it was removed. However, considering the stress factors reported, it's not difficult to see why Brillo is having problems. Since the stress cannot be removed, tweaking the diet is going to be necessary, IMO, but, as has been stated, a urine sample taken directly from the bladder, and sent to a lab for culture should be done, should have been done.My concern with a raw diet remains that the phosphorous content is too high.
And yes, to answer the OP, Rescue Remedy may help, along with the feliway diffusers. Make sure it is the RR for pets though, as that formula contains no alcohol.
Hope Brillo feels better soon.
Oh, right. Wellness lists choline chloride as an ingredient.
L-methionine is an essential amino acid, found in MEAT. DL-methionine is the cheap synthetic version, added to so-called "urinary tract" diets like C/D to make up for the fact that those diets are woefully lacking in meat.
Maybe you should test her urine ph at home and think about adding L-methionine to a quality canned food. It's really not that hard.
Your concern is unfounded because it's not a given that all raw diets are too high in phosphorus. There are plenty of frozen commercial products that have lower phosphorus levels than most kibble or canned foods, and if one was to make their own raw using the various online nutrient databases available, they would have minute control over the phosphorus.
Hi LDG,
Moving on from that; the irritation information in the second choline chloride paperwork is based on human and sometimes bovine topical application and not oral, which may have different effects if it is ingested. The paperworks note this as well. Again, another note that in that report is; even for humans almost no toxicology information was submitted. If they don't have it straight for humans for even topical applications and we know that so little testing is done for our fur friends, should it be completely trusted?
Your example of putting olive oil in your eyes and having it cause irritation as well is not really a linear argument to me because unless I am mistaken, we are working out what is related to ingestion and absorption.
The true form of the vitamin is not choline chloride. (It is choline as just plain choline.) Even as it is defined on Wiki they are both defined as quite different. There is no doubt about it, even many of the better cat foods use choline chloride as a substitute because it is mass produced and cheap. But the fact is that they are not one in the same and while choline chloride can provide what choline will, the natural form of the vitamin is not being used. Another fact that has not been disputed is its use in soap products, detergents and cleaners.
At roots end, even though the better cat foods use it, there is little or no toxicology information about it listed on the paperwork we have seen for humans and animals. To boot, it has taken years to produce even what the better cat food brands do and there is obviously still room for improvement.
I will take a look at Ziwipeak for my own interest in finding very good super premium brands of canned cat food. At present the only canned food I am aware of that does not have it listed as ingredient is Nature's Logic.
In the paperwork you linked to me, it specifically states that choline chloride is a bioequivalent. That is where I sourced that information from. I voluntarily read the information about it and then when I have repeated the information back that is clearly in the paperwork, you tell me that it is not what even the paperwork in front of us says, so I am scratching my head at this right now.
Moving on from that; the irritation information in the second choline chloride paperwork is based on human and sometimes bovine topical application and not oral, which may have different effects if it is ingested. The paperworks note this as well. Again, another note that in that report is; even for humans almost no toxicology information was submitted. If they don't have it straight for humans for even topical applications and we know that so little testing is done for our fur friends, should it be completely trusted?
Your example of putting olive oil in your eyes and having it cause irritation as well is not really a linear argument to me because unless I am mistaken, we are working out what is related to ingestion and absorption.
The true form of the vitamin is not choline chloride. (It is choline as just plain choline.) Even as it is defined on Wiki they are both defined as quite different. There is no doubt about it, even many of the better cat foods use choline chloride as a substitute because it is mass produced and cheap. But the fact is that they are not one in the same and while choline chloride can provide what choline will, the natural form of the vitamin is not being used. Another fact that has not been disputed is its use in soap products, detergents and cleaners.
At roots end, even though the better cat foods use it, there is little or no toxicology information about it listed on the paperwork we have seen for humans and animals. To boot, it has taken years to produce even what the better cat food brands do and there is obviously still room for improvement.
I will take a look at Ziwipeak for my own interest in finding very good super premium brands of canned cat food. At present the only canned food I am aware of that does not have it listed as ingredient is Nature's Logic.
bioequivalent
[bī′ō·ikwiv′ələnt]
Etymology: Gk, bios + L, aequus, equal, valere, to be strong
1 (in pharmacology) pertaining to a drug that has the same effect on the body as another drug, usually one nearly identical in its chemical formulation but possibly requiring a different amount to see the same effect.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bioequivalent
[bī′ō·ikwiv′ələnt]
Etymology: Gk, bios + L, aequus, equal, valere, to be strong
1 (in pharmacology) pertaining to a drug that has the same effect on the body as another drug, usually one nearly identical in its chemical formulation but possibly requiring a different amount to see the same effect.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bioequivalent
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=949&page=77 An extensive discussion of choline in animals, with detailed referenced section on
hypervitaminosis (toxicity, upper tolerance levels). The studies were in pigs, chickens, dogs and rats (primarily). A short summary of Davis' work (1944), discussed more thoroughly in the above link, is available here: http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dnpna/anh_comp_vit_chol_safety.htm
No, there are apparently no studies of toxicity in cats.
If you don't want choline chloride in food you feed your cats, don't bother researching Ziwipeak.
hypervitaminosis (toxicity, upper tolerance levels). The studies were in pigs, chickens, dogs and rats (primarily). A short summary of Davis' work (1944), discussed more thoroughly in the above link, is available here: http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dnpna/anh_comp_vit_chol_safety.htm
No, there are apparently no studies of toxicity in cats.
If you don't want choline chloride in food you feed your cats, don't bother researching Ziwipeak.
Hi LDG,
I am glad to know there is at least some kind of information about it out there, be it the opinion reports from Europe or the last two links that you have shared. At the very least, with the information available an informed decision can be made. It is very difficult to avoid the ingredient even in the better cat foods as you have listed. The canned food my cats are eating also has it listed as an ingredient. But I think the best we can do if the food has the ingredient in it and we have limited options, is to hope that the ingredient has its placement towards the bottom of the ingredient list and not at the top or in the middle.
I always like to know what canned foods are available that will come as close to a raw diet as possible. I have a friend in AU who has had loads of trouble finding something close enough without other fillers or odd preservatives. Apparently the more natural trend that shuns the use of grains, soy, etc., has not completely caught on and your mention of Ziwipeak will help her out a great deal. Even with the choline chloride in it, if it is what out there and is a percentage better than the next one it is still worthy of taking a look at. Thank you.
I am glad to know there is at least some kind of information about it out there, be it the opinion reports from Europe or the last two links that you have shared. At the very least, with the information available an informed decision can be made. It is very difficult to avoid the ingredient even in the better cat foods as you have listed. The canned food my cats are eating also has it listed as an ingredient. But I think the best we can do if the food has the ingredient in it and we have limited options, is to hope that the ingredient has its placement towards the bottom of the ingredient list and not at the top or in the middle.
I always like to know what canned foods are available that will come as close to a raw diet as possible. I have a friend in AU who has had loads of trouble finding something close enough without other fillers or odd preservatives. Apparently the more natural trend that shuns the use of grains, soy, etc., has not completely caught on and your mention of Ziwipeak will help her out a great deal. Even with the choline chloride in it, if it is what out there and is a percentage better than the next one it is still worthy of taking a look at. Thank you.
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Not so, Otto.
One, there are a plethora of raw diet home-preparation recipes and commercially manufactured varieties, and such a wide blanket statement could never be applied to all. Two, commercially-prepared raw diets are formulated around the exact same standards (AAFCO, etc.) as canned diets and are just as safe - or not - as regards phosphorous levels. And three, by definition, no balanced home-prepared raw diet, whether ground, frankenprey or whole prey, is going to have too high a phosphorous level. In addition, unlike commercially-prepared products, home-prepared meals can be customized for cats diagnosed with CRF (or other diet-sensitive disease), providing them with a species-appropriate and uncompromisingly nutritious diet while also addressing specific disease-based needs.
Best regards!
AC
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Thank you AC I was hoping you would comment, I was even hoping to be reassured, but I am not much
. The thing is, there is so much room for error if someone is doing their own preparation. With commercial canned foods of course one can deliberately choose foods low in phosphorous (such as 'prescription' diets)"Too high" a phosphorous level is relative isn't it? What is not too high for a healthy cat may indeed be too high for a cat who forms struvite crystals. And the person feeding this diet will need to be very very careful and do much learning, to be sure they reduce the levels properly, without depriving the cat of something else she needs.
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Update: I talked to my vet friend aka second opinion. She is of the opinion that Brillo is not in any acute danger, since her urine "samples" she have provided have been clear and copious and NO other symptoms are present. This vet actually owns one of Brillo's great granddaughters so understands the psyche of wirehair cats,etc. So for now she recommended that I continue feeding the watered down raw, and come and see her next week after the holiday and call sooner if there is an acute problem.
So that's that. Brillo is happy, playful and eating/peeing well as of this morning.
Cally
So that's that. Brillo is happy, playful and eating/peeing well as of this morning.
Cally
