Struvite Crystals...UTI...so confused - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by otto 


I'm no expert about raw feeding but I do know it can be very dangerous for cats with urinary tract issues if the balance is off even a little. So then you have to add some chemical to make it better?

L-methionine is an essential amino acid, found in MEAT. DL-methionine is the cheap synthetic version, added to so-called "urinary tract" diets like C/D to make up for the fact that those diets are woefully lacking in meat. 

Originally Posted by otto 

My other three cats eat a varied, grain free canned diet. I wish with all my heart that Mazy could too. 

Maybe you should test her urine ph at home and think about adding L-methionine to a quality canned food. It's really not that hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by otto 

My concern with a raw diet remains that the phosphorous content is too high.
 

Your concern is unfounded because it's not a given that all raw diets are too high in phosphorus. There are plenty of frozen commercial products that have lower phosphorus levels than most kibble or canned foods, and if one was to make their own raw using the various online nutrient databases available, they would have minute control over the phosphorus. 
 

Hi LDG,

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by YayHappens 

Hi LDG,

On an efforted skim of the paperwork what I read in summary is; they state what choline does and what its benefits are. It then states that choline chloride is a an acceptable bioequivalent. And then it goes on to talk more about choline more and how choline is necessary. Mostly what I am reading about is choline and not really anything about choline chloride except that it is acceptable to use in feeds. The only thing supporting why it is acceptable, is just stated so far as : it's a bioequivalent.

It is not a "bioequivalent," it is a FORM of choline.

In the paperwork you linked to me, it specifically states that choline chloride is a bioequivalent. That is where I sourced that information from. I voluntarily read the information about it and then when I have repeated the information back that is clearly in the paperwork, you tell me that it is not what even the paperwork in front of us says, so I am scratching my head at this right now.

Moving on from that; the irritation information in the second choline chloride paperwork is based on human and sometimes bovine topical application and not oral, which may have different effects if it is ingested. The paperworks note this as well. Again, another note that in that report is; even for humans almost no toxicology information was submitted. If they don't have it straight for humans for even topical applications and we know that so little testing is done for our fur friends, should it be completely trusted?

Your example of putting olive oil in your eyes and having it cause irritation as well is not really a linear argument to me because unless I am mistaken, we are working out what is related to ingestion and absorption. 

The true form of the vitamin is not choline chloride. (It is choline as just plain choline.) Even as it is defined on Wiki they are both defined as quite different. There is no doubt about it, even many of the better cat foods use choline chloride as a substitute because it is mass produced and cheap. But the fact is that they are not one in the same and while choline chloride can provide what choline will, the natural form of the vitamin is not being used. Another fact that has not been disputed is its use in soap products, detergents and cleaners.

At roots end, even though the better cat foods use it, there is little or no toxicology information about it listed on the paperwork we have seen for humans and animals. To boot, it has taken years to produce even what the better cat food brands do and there is obviously still room for improvement.

I will take a look at Ziwipeak for my own interest in finding very good super premium brands of canned cat food. At present the only canned food I am aware of that does not have it listed as ingredient is Nature's Logic.

Hi LDG,

I am glad to know there is at least some kind of information about it out there, be it the opinion reports from Europe or the last two links that you have shared. At the very least, with the information available an informed decision can be made. It is very difficult to avoid the ingredient even in the better cat foods as you have listed. The canned food my cats are eating also has it listed as an ingredient. But I think the best we can do if the food has the ingredient in it and we have limited options, is to hope that the ingredient has its placement towards the bottom of the ingredient list and not at the top or in the middle.

I always like to know what canned foods are available that will come as close to a raw diet as possible. I have a friend in AU who has had loads of trouble finding something close enough without other fillers or odd preservatives. Apparently the more natural trend that shuns the use of grains, soy, etc., has not completely caught on and your mention of Ziwipeak will help her out a great deal. Even with the choline chloride in it, if it is what out there and is a percentage better than the next one it is still worthy of taking a look at. Thank you.

Originally Posted by otto 

...

My concern with a raw diet remains that the phosphorous content is too high.
...

Not so, Otto.

One, there are a plethora of raw diet home-preparation recipes and commercially manufactured varieties, and such a wide blanket statement could never be applied to all. Two, commercially-prepared raw diets are formulated around the exact same standards (AAFCO, etc.) as canned diets and are just as safe - or not - as regards phosphorous levels. And three, by definition, no balanced home-prepared raw diet, whether ground, frankenprey or whole prey, is going to have too high a phosphorous level. In addition, unlike commercially-prepared products, home-prepared meals can be customized for cats diagnosed with CRF (or other diet-sensitive disease), providing them with a species-appropriate and uncompromisingly nutritious diet while also addressing specific disease-based needs.

Best regards!

AC

Thanks for taking time to check in - and let's hope Brillo just keeps feeling better and better!

Quote:

Originally Posted by otto 

Thank you AC I was hoping you would comment, I was even hoping to be reassured, but I am not much . The thing is, there is so much room for error if someone is doing their own preparation. With commercial canned foods of course one can deliberately choose foods low in phosphorous (such as 'prescription' diets)

"Too high" a phosphorous level is relative isn't it? What is not too high for a healthy cat may indeed be too high for a cat who forms struvite crystals. And the person feeding this diet will need to be very very careful and do much learning, to be sure they reduce the levels properly, without depriving the cat of something else she needs.
 

I've yet to see a prescription diet that didn't contain a high-carb and / or profoundly unhealthy list of ingredients for our carnivorous little friends (including the CD under discussion), making their use an unacceptable (IMO) trade-off of one problem for another (many others, usually).

Nor do I believe "too high" is relative in this respect. First, and very important - struvite crystals, like gut bacteria, are naturally present in feline urine; all cats form crystals. Secondly, cats have an acceptable range of phosphorus intake that has evolved over centuries, dictated by their meaty prey-only diet. That optimal range is the same for healthy cats as it is for dehydrated or stressed cats in whom struvite crystals begin to concentrate to the point of causing irritation to the bladder or blocking the flow of urine.

Your point in reference "room for error" in home-prepared diets is true, but is the same for all diets. Either cat owners trust themselves to prepare a balanced diet for their feline friends, or they trust the commercial industry to do it... either way, a margin for error is inherent in the process. Thousands of cats have been killed and permanently harmed when they fell into the industry's margin for error; for many of us, that is enough - more than enough! - to take control of our cats' diet. Home-made raw diets are not difficult to understand and can take many forms, making them flexible enough to fit most lifestyles. Do some folks give home-made raw feeding a quick look, decide they know all they need and cause harm to their cats through lack of complete understanding? I don't doubt it. But that's not nearly enough of a reason to disregard the benefits inherent in feeding animals a species-appropriate diet; the, by definition, most bio-available, nutritious, and beneficial diet for supporting their specific physiology (be it home-made or commercially-produced).

CatMom2Wires is obviously comfortable in her ability to provide Brillo a balanced home-prepared diet, and dropping the dehydrating kibble in favor of 100 percent raw is a logical choice in her circumstances. So while I understand your reservations about a home-made diet, Otto, I don't share them.

I hope that makes sense.

Best regards!

AC