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Help with dry/wet food - Page 2

post #31 of 41

Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post


Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post

Second, if at all possible, don't feed kibble. As has been mentioned, kibble-fed cats run the risk of chronic dehydration, which stresses all their body organs. In addition, kibble has been linked in studies to ailments such as urinary tract issues and cancers, among many others.

 

...  A wet junk food with poor quality protein sources and nitrates would clearly be inferior in that respect to a high quality dry food.  

 

...There are also studies that show dental disease, by far the most common disease in cats, was "significantly more absent" in cats fed at least some dry food compared to cats fed exclusively a wet food diet  such as in one of the largest scientific pet nutrition studies to date (38,776 cats and dogs in the study).

 

Its great that there is a lot of attention being given to feline health, but note that the above sites provided are all getting their information primarily from a single source and thus parroting the same information from Lisa A. Pierson that has made overgeneralized statements that not all industry leaders or veterinarians agree with...

 

As they say, there are always two sides to any story, heh.  smile.gif


As has been said many times, it isn't the ingredients that make kibble an inherently species-inappropriate feline diet, it's the fact it's a dry, water-deficient diet being fed to an animal that evolved to eat moisture-rich prey and lacks the ability to make up for that deficiency. That most kibble also includes species-inappropriate ingredients just adds insult to injury.

 

I won't address the dental claims made here, as they're easy to check out and have been refuted in many threads, including Ducman's own siggy thread (starting at Post #40).

 

Dr. Pierson has an active practice and is years away from being the first veterinarian to advocate a species-appropriate diet. Nor is she alone in her beliefs today. Plenty of experts have taken the time to study this topic and come to the same, common sense conclusion - a species-appropriate diet is the most beneficial and nutritious diet possible and for cats, that means fresh, non-processed, animal-based products.

 

In case it piques any reader's interest, here are a few names I've right to hand without any research needed: Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM, JD – Veterinarian researcher, author and one-time staff veterinarian for Hill's Pet Foods; Dr. Jean Hofve - Holistic veterinarian and author; Lynette Ackman – Co-founder of Feline Outreach; Michelle Bernard – Researcher and author; Lee Ellis – Founder of the Feline IBD forum; Michael Fox, BVetMed, PhD, DSC, MRCVS – Animal rights and welfare advocate, author and syndicated columnist; Margaret Gates – Founder of the Feline Nutrition Education Society; Anne Jablonski – Founder of CatNutrition.org; Kymythy R. Schultze, C.N., C.N.C. – Clinical nutritionist and author; Andrea Tasi, VMD – Feline-only veterinarian and lecturer; Dr. Will Falconer, DVM – Certified Veterinary Homeopath; Kay Aubrery-Chimene, RMT and Bio-Nutritional Therapist; Martin Goldstein, DVM; Richard Pitcairn, DVM; Donald Strombeck, DVM; and Kerry Brown, DVM.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieOxenfree View Post

We're going in to the vet Saturday morning. I have a list of things to go over with her as it is (I'll make a post of my concerns in another thread).. As for food..Enzymatic toothpaste- benefit for dry-food eating cats? Oliver loves dry food. He wakes us up when his bowl is empty overnight if we forget to fill it. Sometimes he puts it above his wet food! Oliver also is not dehydrated. He drinks his full bowl of water every day and sometimes he wants to go "look" at the bunny's water bowl :P I don't notice his thirst as excessive but I know he's not starved, so to speak, for water. 

  Foods formulated to balance urine ph are they a gimmick? What makes them worth buying?? I will have a look around bc I still need to find a way to the pet store to get his toothpaste and some other things. 


How did your appointment go, OllieOxenfree? I hope Oliver is doing well!
 

Like all animals, feline physiology is perfectly designed to maintain a healthy urine PH. If a food is balanced for a cat's natural needs, it will not require any special supplements to further balance the cat's urine. If supplements are added to specifically target and change the urine of the animal eating the food, it's because the food itself contains unhealthy ingredients that alter the cat's natural chemistry away from what is optimal.

 

It's always better to feed a more natural, less processed, species-appropriate food, then to feed a less-optimal diet and use supplements to mask or correct the deficiencies. (If this sounds familiar, it's because this is a canon for ALL animals, including us. :-} )

 

Best regards!

 

AC

post #32 of 41
Thread Starter 

 Thanks again auntie :) I updated Oliver thread titled "Oliver's first appt."

post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieOxenfree View Post

 Wow.. Now I'm super paranoid about the dry food I feed Oliver! I think I can increase his wet food to maybe 2 cans a day (since the article mentioned wet must be 50% of the daily diet) but money wise it will likely be the cheaper ones, things like Friskies and Fancy Feast. They're better than not receiving wet food at all! I also learned about the ingredients bone and meat meal etc. Euthanised pets?!? How terrible! Could Oliver's digestive upset be caused by eating a poor diet all this time and now he's getting a better food (albeit it's PC Nutrition First) 
One can is actually enough for a full day for most cats. (If you are feeding 5.5oz cans. If the cans are 3oz, two will also be enough.) So if you are feeding that much wet, you actually can eliminate dry altogether and save yourself a bunch of money.
And they can, yes. When it says 'meat' that means it could be anything under the sun in there..
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieOxenfree View Post

We're going in to the vet Saturday morning. I have a list of things to go over with her as it is (I'll make a post of my concerns in another thread).. As for food..Enzymatic toothpaste- benefit for dry-food eating cats? Oliver loves dry food. He wakes us up when his bowl is empty overnight if we forget to fill it. Sometimes he puts it above his wet food! Oliver also is not dehydrated. He drinks his full bowl of water every day and sometimes he wants to go "look" at the bunny's water bowl :P I don't notice his thirst as excessive but I know he's not starved, so to speak, for water. 
  Foods formulated to balance urine ph are they a gimmick? What makes them worth buying?? I will have a look around bc I still need to find a way to the pet store to get his toothpaste and some other things. 
Actually (depending on how big the bowl is), I would be concerned with your cat drinking so much water. Especially since he is also eating wet, that does sound excessive to me.
post #34 of 41
Thread Starter 

 Yea he's not drinking that much anymore. He's eating a more reasonable amount now. Almost a full bowl of dry a day and depending on what kind, 2 bowls of wet. 

post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieOxenfree View Post

 Yea he's not drinking that much anymore. He's eating a more reasonable amount now. Almost a full bowl of dry a day and depending on what kind, 2 bowls of wet. 

What does that equal to in cups and oz?
post #36 of 41
Thread Starter 

eep! I really don't know.. Um. Maybe a cup (1000ml) fits into his small dishes and slightly more fits in the dry food bowl?? 

post #37 of 41

Many cats do not have a great thirst drive, but some do and overhydration unless  ridiculous is simply not a concern, they will just urinate more and its a good thing don't be alarmed.   Many of us invest in nice attractive cat fountains to get our kitties to drink as much as possible.  All good dry or wet foods will be formulated with a target urine PH, its just that not all of them advertise it.   Current consensus in the medical community is that urinary PH is the primary factor in dietary related UTIs, so no, its not a marketing gimmick and worthwhile to take into consideration when shopping.  http://cats.about.com/od/lowerurinarytractdisease/qt/catsurinpH.htm  smile.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post

So if you are feeding that much wet, you actually can eliminate dry altogether and save yourself a bunch of money.

 

That is a bit misleading, as even the cheapest wet food is magnitudes more expensive than large bags of premium dry comparing calories to calories, so I'm not sure how you could "save yourself a bunch of money" with far more expensive food.    To save a bunch of money, don't open the second can of wet!  bigwink.gif

post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post

Dr. Pierson has an active practice and is years away from being the first veterinarian to advocate a species-appropriate diet. Nor is she alone in her beliefs today. Plenty of experts have taken the time to study this topic and come to the same, common sense conclusion - a species-appropriate diet is the most beneficial and nutritious diet possible and for cats, that means fresh, non-processed, animal-based products.

Although technically accurate, this is very misleading in my opinion as Dr Pierson is by far in the minority, and the American, Canadian, and British Veterinarian Medical Association do not mirror her alternative dietary beliefs.    In fact, raw feeding is not only not mainstream, but is in fact recommended against by the before mentioned Associations.     In other words, if going by number of doctors in a vote, there are more that oppose her than support her beliefs.  

 

The AVMA (representing the official consensus among veterinarians) has been holding conventions to try and dispel a lot of such (at least in their expert opinion) misinformation about the unproven benefit claims or raw diets and false generalizations about commercial food: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/100726_2010convention_raw_food.asp

 

Quote:
"Raw diets evoke a lot of passion and emotion from pet owners who feel they are doing what is best for their pets.  Unfortunately, the internet is filled with misinformation about the benefits of raw diets and even more misinformation about problems with commercial pet foods. The purpose of the lecture Raw Diets is to show some of the information clients see on the internet and then discuss how accurate this information is."

 

post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post

That is a bit misleading, as even the cheapest wet food is magnitudes more expensive than large bags of premium dry comparing calories to calories, so I'm not sure how you could "save yourself a bunch of money" with far more expensive food.    To save a bunch of money, don't open the second can of wet!  bigwink.gif


One could certainly save a bunch of money on vet bills by feeding more wet. Do you know how much a perineal urethrostomy surgery goes for these days? You can buy a heckuva lot of wet food for that price.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post

Although technically accurate, this is very misleading in my opinion as Dr Pierson is by far in the minority, and the American, Canadian, and British Veterinarian Medical Association do not mirror her alternative dietary beliefs.  

 

 

Galileo was also in the minority with his ideas. That didn't make them wrong. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post

 

The AVMA (representing the official consensus among veterinarians) has been holding conventions to try and dispel a lot of such (at least in their expert opinion) misinformation about the unproven benefit claims or raw diets and false generalizations about commercial food: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/100726_2010convention_raw_food.asp

 

 



You do know that the AVMA is in bed with Big Pet Food, don't you? Who do you think teaches all of the so-called "nutrition" courses in all of the veterinary schools in North America? 

post #40 of 41

Dr Atkins was also in the minority, but that didn't mean his alternative diet was right for everyone or even the majority of people.    He sure got a lot of attention and sold a lot of books though as "Atkins Nutritionals" grossed over $100 million alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarcatmom View Post


One could certainly save a bunch of money on vet bills by feeding more wet. Do you know how much a perineal urethrostomy surgery goes for these days?

Nope, I have no idea because my cats are very healthy.   Do you have any peer reviewed scientific studies that demonstrate that any wet food offers statistical benefit to avoiding perineal urethrostomy compared to any dry food, and how exactly would one conduct such a broad study since you would need to compare numerous recipes of both wet and dry food to come to a generalized conclusion?  Or is that part of the "unsubstantiated internet claims" the AVMA is referencing in these educational seminars...  

post #41 of 41

Those reading this thread who would like more info on the AVA's history and agenda might find Nathan Winograd's latest blog post helpful and / or interesting: Friends Don’t Let Friends Kill Dogs.

 

Although there are many sources, here's just one recent post on a study linking kibble to urinary tract issues, from the Winn Feline Foundation: Feline Urethral Obstruction.

 

Finally, the insinuation that raw feeding and the alternative "Atkins" diet are similar in concept is... laughable. Feeding cats what they've been eating their entire evolutionary history isn't "alternative", it's simple common sense. Prior to the mid-1900s, when commercial pet foods began enjoying increased popularity, cats were fed table scraps or allowed to hunt on their own, and the message that commercial foods were "better" than a cat's natural diet wasn't marketed by the pet food industry until 1964, less than 50 years ago.

 

In truth, it's the heavily-processed kibble and, to a lessor degree, canned foods that are alternative diets. That a return to feeding more natural, less-processed fresh food to a cat - with it's very specialized digestive physiology - is such a hard sell is proof of the success of the pet food industry's marketing machine, and nothing more.

 

It's well-known that eating whole, fresh, less processed foods is healthier for us, and our digestive systems are generic enough to pull nutrition out of just about anything we care to eat. How much more important is it to give an obligate carnivore the single fuel its body is so beautifully, uniquely, and extraordinarily well-designed to process?

 

Best regards.

 

AC

 

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