Help with dry/wet food

What's the guaranteed analysis? Protein, fat, moisture, etc percentages?

Protein= min 32%

crude fat= min 15%

crude fibre= max 3%

moisture=max 10%

ash=max 7%

Magnesium= max 0.1%

taurine= min 0.15%

omega 6 fatty acids= min 2.3%

omega 3 fatty acids= min 0.3%

Hi, OllieOxenfree! Welcome to TCS!

Before I shell out my two cents, I'd like to thank you for taking in Ollie like that; he's a lucky kitty and the world needs more people like you!

Now here's my input...

First, stay away from pouches, as they have a very high percentage of colorings, texturizers, and preservatives, many of which are proven carcinogens.

Second, if at all possible, don't feed kibble. As has been mentioned, kibble-fed cats run the risk of chronic dehydration, which stresses all their body organs. In addition, kibble has been linked in studies to ailments such as urinary tract issues and cancers, among many others. CatInfo.org, Feline-Nutrition.org and LittleBigCat.com are all GREAT sites for researching feline nutrition and how diet impacts their health.

Since cats - like sharks, snakes and birds of prey - are obligate carnivores, looking for canned products that are low-carb (or grain-, fruit- and vegetable-free) and have a high percentage of named animal meat (i.e. "turkey" instead of "poultry") is a good place to start. Wellness, Natural Balance and Felidae all have grain-free varieties, and Nature's Variety Instincts and Evo 95% meat products are all grain-free. A "grain-free canned cat" search on petfooddirect.com will yield a veritable cornucopia of options, and you can conduct a side-by-side analysis of the ingredients and nutritional profiles.

Feline-nutrition.org has a nice article on deciphering pet food labels under their Nutrition section that offers additional insight into choosing different products, and LittleBigCat.com has two very good articles discussing various food products and ingredients, what to look for, what to watch out for and why: Selecting a Good Commercial Pet Food and Lifestages, Lifestyles, and Cat Food.

I'd also recommend feeding Ollie a rotation of canned foods; this will keep him from becoming fixated on any one product (a problem if they change or stop producing it) and protect him from potential quality control issues by diluting their impact. Since cats can develop hypersensitivity when continually exposed to the same proteins or ingredients for extended periods, it will also help prevent food intolerance issues (and the associated diarrhea and vomiting).

Dr. Hofve has a great article with even more reasons for rotating foods: Switching Foods.

Hope this is helpful!

AC

Thanks Auntie! ^.^ I'll check out those articles and pick out some better canned food. I have a test Monday which I must study for so the articles will have to wait actually. But I appreciate your comment! I always agreed with feeding variety and as far as these store brands go I've been buying different brands and already took him off the pouches! I cannot believe there are such bad ingredients in it! how can they get away with that?! 

 Anyway, I'll look into what PetSmart and my local non-animal-selling lps carries  

 Wow.. Now I'm super paranoid about the dry food I feed Oliver! I think I can increase his wet food to maybe 2 cans a day (since the article mentioned wet must be 50% of the daily diet) but money wise it will likely be the cheaper ones, things like Friskies and Fancy Feast. They're better than not receiving wet food at all! I also learned about the ingredients bone and meat meal etc. Euthanised pets?!? How terrible! Could Oliver's digestive upset be caused by eating a poor diet all this time and now he's getting a better food (albeit it's PC Nutrition First) 

OllieOxenfree said:

 Wow.. Now I'm super paranoid about the dry food I feed Oliver!

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Hanging out around here does that to ya. I'm still not sure I'm doing it right... 

  

Auntie Crazy said:

Second, if at all possible, don't feed kibble. As has been mentioned, kibble-fed cats run the risk of chronic dehydration, which stresses all their body organs. In addition, kibble has been linked in studies to ailments such as urinary tract issues and cancers, among many others.

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For a balanced viewpoint, studies have shown that chemical leaching from the lining and sealant required in metal cans can itself be a cancer risk (see concerns over BPA), and it is well accepted that food quality itself plays a more major role, which is not about how the ingredients are cooked but what those ingredients are and their quality to begin with.  A wet junk food with poor quality protein sources and nitrates would clearly be inferior in that respect to a high quality dry food.  

The science of urinary tract issues is still in its infancy, and research will show you that in over half of all cases the cause remains unknown and aren't necessarily food triggered (stress, genetics, autoimune, viral, urine retention, unhygienic litterbox conditions, and other issues can play a factor), and there certainly is no consensus in the medical community that dry food is attributed to this, nor are all dry foods the same anymore than all wet foods are.   Given the choice between a urinary diet dry food and tuna wet food is a no brainer for a UTI prone cat for example.   While proper hydration is clearly important, the latest research indicates that urinary PH is one of the primary factors in preventing UTIs, which is why there has been a shift in the industry of late to advertise or at least make available target urine PH's for their recipes.    There are also studies that show dental disease, by far the most common disease in cats, was "significantly more absent" in cats fed at least some dry food compared to cats fed exclusively a wet food diet  such as in one of the largest scientific pet nutrition studies to date (38,776 cats and dogs in the study).

Its great that there is a lot of attention being given to feline health, but note that the above sites provided are all getting their information primarily from a single source and thus parroting the same information from Lisa A. Pierson that has made overgeneralized statements that not all industry leaders or veterinarians agree with.     There are no shortage of DVM's with varied opinions on nutrition after all, and Dr Pierson has not held any professional position in feline nutrition (no government, board, or other private industry experience that I am aware of) to be considered an absolute authority anymore than your local veterinarian.  

As they say, there are always two sides to any story, heh.  

We're going in to the vet Saturday morning. I have a list of things to go over with her as it is (I'll make a post of my concerns in another thread).. As for food..Enzymatic toothpaste- benefit for dry-food eating cats? Oliver loves dry food. He wakes us up when his bowl is empty overnight if we forget to fill it. Sometimes he puts it above his wet food! Oliver also is not dehydrated. He drinks his full bowl of water every day and sometimes he wants to go "look" at the bunny's water bowl I don't notice his thirst as excessive but I know he's not starved, so to speak, for water. 

  Foods formulated to balance urine ph are they a gimmick? What makes them worth buying?? I will have a look around bc I still need to find a way to the pet store to get his toothpaste and some other things. 

Not a gimmick from everything I have read, and you will find no quality food manufacturers that won't be able to list their target urine PH today.   Simply put, too acidic or alkaline (most common) of a urine PH has been found to contribute to different types of crystals.   Plenty of hydration and frequent elimination can dilute the urine enough to mask even a very unhealthy urine PH, but the benefits of a healthy target seem quite apparent. I had a list a little while back, will have to find it.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_lower_urinary_tract_disease

Approximately 15-20% of FLUTD cases are caused by uroliths, with the most common form being calcium oxalate  and struvite(magnesium ammonium phosphate) uroliths. The majority of uroliths are located in the urinary bladder, but can also form in the kidneys, ureters and urethra. Many studies have concluded magnesium  in the diet as a primary cause of struvite urolithiasis in cats. However, researchers have found that urine pH  is a more important contributing factor. Urine that is acidic helps to dissolve struvite uroliths and also provides a less favourable environment for its formation.

Commercial feline diets now limit the amount of magnesium and add acidifiers in the food to increase urine acidity, thereby reducing the likelihood of struvite formation. The decrease of struvite uroliths coincides with an increase in oxalate uroliths, low magnesium levels and urine pH both being a factor in calcium oxalate formation.[2][3]

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Originally Posted by Ducman69  

Auntie Crazy said:

Second, if at all possible, don't feed kibble. As has been mentioned, kibble-fed cats run the risk of chronic dehydration, which stresses all their body organs. In addition, kibble has been linked in studies to ailments such as urinary tract issues and cancers, among many others.

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...  A wet junk food with poor quality protein sources and nitrates would clearly be inferior in that respect to a high quality dry food.  

...There are also studies that show dental disease, by far the most common disease in cats, was "significantly more absent" in cats fed at least some dry food compared to cats fed exclusively a wet food diet  such as in one of the largest scientific pet nutrition studies to date (38,776 cats and dogs in the study).

Its great that there is a lot of attention being given to feline health, but note that the above sites provided are all getting their information primarily from a single source and thus parroting the same information from Lisa A. Pierson that has made overgeneralized statements that not all industry leaders or veterinarians agree with...

As they say, there are always two sides to any story, heh.  

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As has been said many times, it isn't the ingredients that make kibble an inherently species-inappropriate feline diet, it's the fact it's a dry, water-deficient diet being fed to an animal that evolved to eat moisture-rich prey and lacks the ability to make up for that deficiency. That most kibble also includes species-inappropriate ingredients just adds insult to injury.

I won't address the dental claims made here, as they're easy to check out and have been refuted in many threads, including Ducman's own siggy thread (starting at Post #40).

Dr. Pierson has an active practice and is years away from being the first veterinarian to advocate a species-appropriate diet. Nor is she alone in her beliefs today. Plenty of experts have taken the time to study this topic and come to the same, common sense conclusion - a species-appropriate diet is the most beneficial and nutritious diet possible and for cats, that means fresh, non-processed, animal-based products.

In case it piques any reader's interest, here are a few names I've right to hand without any research needed: Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM, JD – Veterinarian researcher, author and one-time staff veterinarian for Hill's Pet Foods; Dr. Jean Hofve - Holistic veterinarian and author; Lynette Ackman – Co-founder of Feline Outreach; Michelle Bernard – Researcher and author; Lee Ellis – Founder of the Feline IBD forum; Michael Fox, BVetMed, PhD, DSC, MRCVS – Animal rights and welfare advocate, author and syndicated columnist; Margaret Gates – Founder of the Feline Nutrition Education Society; Anne Jablonski – Founder of CatNutrition.org; Kymythy R. Schultze, C.N., C.N.C. – Clinical nutritionist and author; Andrea Tasi, VMD – Feline-only veterinarian and lecturer; Dr. Will Falconer, DVM – Certified Veterinary Homeopath; Kay Aubrery-Chimene, RMT and Bio-Nutritional Therapist; Martin Goldstein, DVM; Richard Pitcairn, DVM; Donald Strombeck, DVM; and Kerry Brown, DVM.

OllieOxenfree said:

We're going in to the vet Saturday morning. I have a list of things to go over with her as it is (I'll make a post of my concerns in another thread).. As for food..Enzymatic toothpaste- benefit for dry-food eating cats? Oliver loves dry food. He wakes us up when his bowl is empty overnight if we forget to fill it. Sometimes he puts it above his wet food! Oliver also is not dehydrated. He drinks his full bowl of water every day and sometimes he wants to go "look" at the bunny's water bowl I don't notice his thirst as excessive but I know he's not starved, so to speak, for water. 

  Foods formulated to balance urine ph are they a gimmick? What makes them worth buying?? I will have a look around bc I still need to find a way to the pet store to get his toothpaste and some other things. 

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How did your appointment go, OllieOxenfree? I hope Oliver is doing well!
 

Like all animals, feline physiology is perfectly designed to maintain a healthy urine PH. If a food is balanced for a cat's natural needs, it will not require any special supplements to further balance the cat's urine. If supplements are added to specifically target and change the urine of the animal eating the food, it's because the food itself contains unhealthy ingredients that alter the cat's natural chemistry away from what is optimal.

It's always better to feed a more natural, less processed, species-appropriate food, then to feed a less-optimal diet and use supplements to mask or correct the deficiencies. (If this sounds familiar, it's because this is a canon for ALL animals, including us. :-} )

Best regards!

AC

 Thanks again auntie I updated Oliver thread titled "Oliver's first appt."

OllieOxenfree said:

 Wow.. Now I'm super paranoid about the dry food I feed Oliver! I think I can increase his wet food to maybe 2 cans a day (since the article mentioned wet must be 50% of the daily diet) but money wise it will likely be the cheaper ones, things like Friskies and Fancy Feast. They're better than not receiving wet food at all! I also learned about the ingredients bone and meat meal etc. Euthanised pets?!? How terrible! Could Oliver's digestive upset be caused by eating a poor diet all this time and now he's getting a better food (albeit it's PC Nutrition First) 

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One can is actually enough for a full day for most cats. (If you are feeding 5.5oz cans. If the cans are 3oz, two will also be enough.) So if you are feeding that much wet, you actually can eliminate dry altogether and save yourself a bunch of money.
And they can, yes. When it says 'meat' that means it could be anything under the sun in there..

OllieOxenfree said:

We're going in to the vet Saturday morning. I have a list of things to go over with her as it is (I'll make a post of my concerns in another thread).. As for food..Enzymatic toothpaste- benefit for dry-food eating cats? Oliver loves dry food. He wakes us up when his bowl is empty overnight if we forget to fill it. Sometimes he puts it above his wet food! Oliver also is not dehydrated. He drinks his full bowl of water every day and sometimes he wants to go "look" at the bunny's water bowl I don't notice his thirst as excessive but I know he's not starved, so to speak, for water. 
  Foods formulated to balance urine ph are they a gimmick? What makes them worth buying?? I will have a look around bc I still need to find a way to the pet store to get his toothpaste and some other things. 

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Actually (depending on how big the bowl is), I would be concerned with your cat drinking so much water. Especially since he is also eating wet, that does sound excessive to me.

 Yea he's not drinking that much anymore. He's eating a more reasonable amount now. Almost a full bowl of dry a day and depending on what kind, 2 bowls of wet. 

OllieOxenfree said:

 Yea he's not drinking that much anymore. He's eating a more reasonable amount now. Almost a full bowl of dry a day and depending on what kind, 2 bowls of wet. 

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What does that equal to in cups and oz?

eep! I really don't know.. Um. Maybe a cup (1000ml) fits into his small dishes and slightly more fits in the dry food bowl?? 

Many cats do not have a great thirst drive, but some do and overhydration unless  ridiculous is simply not a concern, they will just urinate more and its a good thing don't be alarmed.   Many of us invest in nice attractive cat fountains to get our kitties to drink as much as possible.  All good dry or wet foods will be formulated with a target urine PH, its just that not all of them advertise it.   Current consensus in the medical community is that urinary PH is the primary factor in dietary related UTIs, so no, its not a marketing gimmick and worthwhile to take into consideration when shopping.  http://cats.about.com/od/lowerurinarytractdisease/qt/catsurinpH.htm   
 

Minka said:

So if you are feeding that much wet, you actually can eliminate dry altogether and save yourself a bunch of money.

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That is a bit misleading, as even the cheapest wet food is magnitudes more expensive than large bags of premium dry comparing calories to calories, so I'm not sure how you could "save yourself a bunch of money" with far more expensive food.    To save a bunch of money, don't open the second can of wet!  

Auntie Crazy said:

Dr. Pierson has an active practice and is years away from being the first veterinarian to advocate a species-appropriate diet. Nor is she alone in her beliefs today. Plenty of experts have taken the time to study this topic and come to the same, common sense conclusion - a species-appropriate diet is the most beneficial and nutritious diet possible and for cats, that means fresh, non-processed, animal-based products.

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Although technically accurate, this is very misleading in my opinion as Dr Pierson is by far in the minority, and the American, Canadian, and British Veterinarian Medical Association do not mirror her alternative dietary beliefs.    In fact, raw feeding is not only not mainstream, but is in fact recommended against by the before mentioned Associations.     In other words, if going by number of doctors in a vote, there are more that oppose her than support her beliefs.  

The AVMA (representing the official consensus among veterinarians) has been holding conventions to try and dispel a lot of such (at least in their expert opinion) misinformation about the unproven benefit claims or raw diets and false generalizations about commercial food: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/100726_2010convention_raw_food.asp

"Raw diets evoke a lot of passion and emotion from pet owners who feel they are doing what is best for their pets.  Unfortunately, the internet is filled with misinformation about the benefits of raw diets and even more misinformation about problems with commercial pet foods. The purpose of the lecture Raw Diets is to show some of the information clients see on the internet and then discuss how accurate this information is."

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Ducman69 said:

That is a bit misleading, as even the cheapest wet food is magnitudes more expensive than large bags of premium dry comparing calories to calories, so I'm not sure how you could "save yourself a bunch of money" with far more expensive food.    To save a bunch of money, don't open the second can of wet!  

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One could certainly save a bunch of money on vet bills by feeding more wet. Do you know how much a perineal urethrostomy surgery goes for these days? You can buy a heckuva lot of wet food for that price.

 

Ducman69 said:

Although technically accurate, this is very misleading in my opinion as Dr Pierson is by far in the minority, and the American, Canadian, and British Veterinarian Medical Association do not mirror her alternative dietary beliefs.  

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Ducman69 said:

The AVMA (representing the official consensus among veterinarians) has been holding conventions to try and dispel a lot of such (at least in their expert opinion) misinformation about the unproven benefit claims or raw diets and false generalizations about commercial food: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/100726_2010convention_raw_food.asp

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You do know that the AVMA is in bed with Big Pet Food, don't you? Who do you think teaches all of the so-called "nutrition" courses in all of the veterinary schools in North America? 

Dr Atkins was also in the minority, but that didn't mean his alternative diet was right for everyone or even the majority of people.    He sure got a lot of attention and sold a lot of books though as "Atkins Nutritionals" grossed over $100 million alone.

Sugarcatmom said:

One could certainly save a bunch of money on vet bills by feeding more wet. Do you know how much a perineal urethrostomy surgery goes for these days?

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Nope, I have no idea because my cats are very healthy.   Do you have any peer reviewed scientific studies that demonstrate that any wet food offers statistical benefit to avoiding perineal urethrostomy compared to any dry food, and how exactly would one conduct such a broad study since you would need to compare numerous recipes of both wet and dry food to come to a generalized conclusion?  Or is that part of the "unsubstantiated internet claims" the AVMA is referencing in these educational seminars...