Aristotle's Thread

[aristotle kitty]

Hello, [some questions after introduction]

I was searching for more information concerning the rearing of kittens and stumbled upon this website. I live with a group of EMT's on a college campus in Tennessee. My girlfriend and I were sitting on the couch in the common area of the house/dorm when we heard loud whining noises from the basement. Two kittens were found on the cement floor of the unheated basement level.

Aristotle was found first. He is a cheetah'ed tabby (that's what the vet tech said anyway). Quinn was found next (a darker grey and silver tabby).

Quinn has since found a home.

We found the kittens this last Friday night and early Saturday morning.

I have taken Aristotle to the vet (yay); his visit was yesterday afternoon. The vet said that she thought him to be in good condition. The vet also said that the kittens are about three weeks old. Both kittens were de-wormed and given a squirt of frontline on the napes of their necks to fight off those fleas and ticks.

One of the individuals living in the house with me has raised kittens and orphaned baby raccoons since she was in middle-school, so we had a great resource to consult in the beginning of our care for little Aristotle.

We live in a small town, and the vet is closed on certain days of the week, so I decided to introduce myself as a caregiver to this kitten and use this community as a resource throughout my continued care.
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Questions: - I have been feeding Aristotle just about every two or three hours. The exception is at night. Kitty sleeps through the night almost every night! He sleeps right next to my head in his little heated box, so if he wakes up I will definitely wake up. I have not been waking him up during the night (6-8 hours) to eat. I do wake him up before I go to class to feed him though, and he will usually go right back to bed after breakfast.
He usually eats about a tablespoon's worth of KMR formula at a time. Sometimes he will eat less, but suckle more frequently. Usually though, Aristotle eats about a tablespoon to a tablespoon and a half's worth of formula every two to three hours.
Now, he is developing a very round belly. I was worried that he was constipated or backed up in some way, but the vet says that if he has been eating regularly and he does poop -even irregularly- he should be fine. When we found him he was right around seven ounces in weight. By the end of day two he was up to eight ounces. When we visited the vet he had gained another ounce for a grand total of nine!

? His abdomen is not sensitive to firm touching, but it does seem slightly distended and/or swollen. Is it really normal for kittens to have such swollen-looking bellies?
I read that it is normal for kittens to have some excess fluid in their abdomens. Could this be the cause?

I want to make sure that he is not eating too much at each sitting. He can really gulp down some formula and can be pretty bossy about kneading on the bottle. Sometimes it seems like he just eats so much! (He will stop though.) Is there any danger of overfeeding?


Thanks for reading and any suggestions or comments you might have,

Curt and Aristotle (sleeping on my chest)

 

[gareth]

Hi Curt

Good on you for having a go. It's extremely demanding but so rewarding when you actually make it work.

This is a really good reference for the kid of questions you are asking...http://fabcats.org/owners/kittens/handrearing.html

The most common causes of a swollen belly in kittens are worms - but kitten's stomachs can seem like they are swollen anyway to be honest - they all look a little pot bellied.

One thing to note that if things change you do need to call a vet quickly as kittens can go downhill unbelievably quickly, so if you haven't done already, ask the vet about worming.

 

[gemlady]

Not any advice right now, but lots of good wishes to your Aristotle from my Aristotle.

 

[aristotle kitty]

Thank you for the link. It is the most complete list that I have encountered so far.

Aristotle just started playing today. He batted his paws at a toy mouse. He is also learning that the litter pan (newspaper w/ kitty litter underneath so he doesn't eat any) is the bathroom area. He still won't go on his own, but much less stimulation is required to make him relieve himself.

Cheers

 

[rafm]

He sounds like a great kitty.

Thank you for taking such good care of him.

I don't have much more advice but I do want to assure you,kitties have very round bellies. I love their fat little bellies.

Do u have a picture of the little guy?

 

[aristotle kitty]

Yeah I totally do.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...aptimeback.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...etahkittty.jpg

----------------

I just weighed Aristotle. He is now 11.2 Oz.
When we found him Friday he was around/under 7.0 Oz.
Wow! How much of a difference a warm place to sleep and some formula make. When we found him I was not sure if he would make it. Now he is well on his way to 1 lb.
-------------

Quinn, Aristotle's brother has come back to visit with us for a night. Quinn was also around 7.0 Oz. and is now about 9 Oz ( I need to weigh him myself to verify this). The family that took Quinn might not be feeding him as frequently as they should be (the only reason we let them take him was that they claim some experience with fostering kittens).We see him at our house when the woman who took him goes to work on campus.
He seems much more prone to chilling and is not gaining weight as steadily as I assume he should be. They say that they have a foster "mamma cat" but I think it might be the case that this foster cat is not giving Quinn much in terms of either sustenance or warmth. Every time Quinn comes over to our place for the day he also has a bowel movement. I wouldn't think it to be the case that he happens to have a large BM every time he visits.
So, I think I will have to ask nicely what kind of environment the kitten has at the woman's house and how frequently he defecates.

---------------------
Other stuff:
Aristotle also used the litter tray on his own for the first time today. The first time that I set him down in front of the tray, he walked right in and climbed out the other side. Then, I took a tissue that had been wrapped around some waste and held it an inch or so from his nose. I set him down in front of the litter pan a second time. This time he walked in and sat right down. Thinking that there was no way that he would go on his own this early, I moved to pick him up to stimulate him with a tissue. Just then I noticed puddle of urine soaking through the newspaper lining. It kept growing and growing until he stood up, shook off and waddled back to my lap.
While this display was exciting, it also meant that he sat in his own urine while he performed.
Now to get him to defecate in the pan. It seems that this may be at least slightly more difficult.

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The litter box

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...itterbox01.jpg

I found a blue litter pan at Walmart for about a dollar-fifty; a scoop for about a dollar; and a 20 lb bag of clay cat litter for about four dollars. There are plenty of printed student and local publications around campus so there is no shortage of newspaper.

The sides of the litter pan are about three inches high. Honestly, I didn't think once about the kind of obstacle this would be for a three-week-old kitten like Aristotle. (Actually, while climbing into the pan would be almost impossible, the lip on the edge of the pan makes it very easy for these natural climbers to wiggle their way out.)
When I arrived home, I took one look at the kitten and thought, "no way."
I thought about halving the height of the pan evenly all the way around. Not only did this approach seem laborious, but it would also have made it much easier for the kitten to make a mess in the area surrounding the pan. Instead, after looking at pictures of litter boxes online, I decided to reduce the height of the pan at its narrower 'front end' to about one third of its original height. This way, access to the box is [Note: Everyone should own a multi-tool] I used the serrated blade on my multi-tool to accomplish this effect.

Result? A litter pan (20 lbs of litter included) for about seven dollars. The nice thing is that, as Aristotle grows, I will not have to buy a bigger pan.

---- ---- -----

Concerning the dangers of clay litter and "clumping cat litters."

Before allowing this little guy to climb into the pan and try things out, I figured that it would be good to look up some tips. I read many warnings concerning the alleged dangers of clay cat litter. Clay and clumping cat litters are allegedly a health risk to cats. The major concern with kittens is that clumping materials can expand in the nasal and oral cavities, the pharynx/larynx, or -more generally- the gastrointestinal tract.
There is also a (more widely agreed upon) risk of respiratory distress as a result of long term exposure to the dust from these particular litter materials.

While I am not entirely sure of the veracity of any claims against particular litter materials, it is a fact that kittens have died from the consumption of litter materials. It does strike me as obvious that any "highly absorbent" and/or "scented" material is probably not good for a curious kitten to be directly exposed to.

Newspaper
Yes, I am aware of the supposed risks of clay and clumping litters and still use them. Since, at this time, Aristotle is highly supervised in almost every aspect of his activity I have deemed it appropriate to continue use of the clay litter. Firstly, this brand did not swell when I subjected it to high moisture levels. Secondly, this brand broke easily into fine particles.
No, I do not believe that these qualities make the litter material kitten safe. What material would be though?
I think, then, that the best option is to insulate the kitten from whatever litter material used.
I have opted to line the bottom of the pan with clay litter. On top of this layer of litter I have set down a layer of newspaper thin enough that the kitten can feel the gravel-like texture of the litter in the bottom of the pan. The thinness of this layer will hopefully help him accommodate more easily to the exposed litter in the future. Urine soaks through the newspaper and is absorbed by the clay below. Fecal matter can be disposed of immediately by tossing the newspaper lining into the trash.

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Anyway, thanks for reading all of this. I don't have much else to do this late at night except stream videos and finish homework.
I have been learning so much concerning the business of hand-raising a kitten. I give out a big "thank you" to posters that have encouraged me and assuaged my fears and worries . I have been caught so very off-guard by the experience and the incredible amount and speed with which I have bonded with this animal.

I'm off to feed Aristotle once more before bedtime.

- Curt

 

[aristotle kitty]

Well Aristotle pees on his own in the litter box every time now.
He sits down and scoots a little on his bottom to make himself pee. It is the funniest thing.


Question: At what age are kittens able to defecate on their own?


New Weight!
Aristotle now weighs 11.8 Oz.
At this rate he will weigh a pound in about a week.

 

[rafm]

He is precious.

You are doing a great job with himand it shows. That pic of him all stretched out is too much. The bond one creates with bottle-fed kitties is super strong.

As to the litter, I much prefer scoopable over clay. For a guy that small, getting him to use the litterbox is a huge accomplishment. Good on you!

Keep us posted on his progress. He's just too cute for words.

 

[aristotle kitty]

New Weight
Aristotle now weighs 12.4 Oz

-

De-worming

Aristotle was de-wormed at the vet on Monday. The vet said that I would see "angel hair pasta"-looking strands in his poop. Apparently these are the worms. I think I found one today, but I'm not absolutely sure that it was in his waste.
Whether or not it was a worm, I'm glad that he received the medication so soon. A week from Monday I am going to give him his next dose of de-worming medication.
The first dose kills any existing worms. The second dose kills any worms that have hatched since the administration of the first. Pretty cool.

-

Wet Food

I am on call currently (no alcohol / leaving campus until my shift is over), so I had someone pick me up wet food at the store.
I told her to look for a brand which contained no filler material (corn, etc.)
The wet food gets most of its protein from chicken and fish, but dried whey is used as a supplement (I'm sure this bolsters the fat content as well).

Food Stats:
Crude protein minimum = 9.0%
Crude fat minimum = 4.5%
Crude fiber maximum = 1.0%
Moisture maximum = 78.0%
*Ash Max = 4.0%
*Taurine minimum = 0.05%

* These caught my eye. Isn't taurine an ingredient in most energy drinks?
Also, what is this "Ash?"


The only time that I have ever seen Taurine in an ingredients list was on an energy drink can.
Taurine in general (Wikipedia) - "Taurine has many fundamental biological roles such as conjugation of bile acids, antioxidation, osmoregulation, membrane stabilization and modulation of calcium signaling. It is essential for cardiovascular function, and development and function of skeletal muscle, the retina and the central nervous system."
Cat - Related
Taurine is an essential dietary requirement for feline health, since cats cannot synthesize the compound. The absence of taurine causes a cat's retina to slowly degenerate, causing eye problems and (eventually) irreversible blindness — a condition known as central retinal degeneration (CRD) as well as hair loss and tooth decay. Decreased plasma taurine concentration has been demonstrated to be associated with feline dilated cardiomyopathy. Unlike CRD, the condition is reversible with supplementation. Taurine is now a requirement of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) and any dry or wet food product labeled approved by the AAFCO should have a minimum of 0.1% taurine in dry food and 0.2% in wet food.

The can says that this wet food is "formulated to meet the" AAFCO standards for nutritional levels, but wouldn't the 0.05% taurine content disqualify it from such status? Maybe because this formula is "for growth and maintenance" it meets a different standard." I'll have to look into it.

Are there any links to a good "ingredients to avoid" list?

I had trouble finding anything on "Ash." I assume it isn't the ash that I am most familiar with (aka wood ash / etc)

-

Starting wet food?

Not yet really. I let Aristotle taste the food in a 1/2 cup measuring cup. He ate a little bit. I think though that it will be too hard on his stomach for him to eat much wet food at this point. I am going to mix it in with his formula and wait until he is a little more neurologically developed (coordinated) to teach him to eat from a small dish. I figure that mixing the wet food with his formula now will allow him to transition more easily to wet food in the near future ( a week or so).

-
Environment

Right now there are a bunch of drunk college kids (my peers?) stomping around the house (Friday night). Everyone wants to play with the kitten, but I'm not so sure. I mean, Aristotle is approaching four weeks and is still somewhat easily chilled (not to mention the possibility of a fall or some other act of negligence). I'm drawing a pretty hard line in terms of who is allowed to handle the little guy.

I think people are more used to interacting with 8-10 week old cats? (With much more resilient constitutions.)

-

Teething

Aristotle has started to chew softly on finger tips, components of his nest, the plastic of his litter pan. He needs something more firm than the little play mice I have for him. I need something firm enough that he can work his teeth against the object, soft enough that it will not either itself splinter or hurt his teeth, and interesting enough that he will want to chew it rather than any number of other interesting household objects.
I really want to find something before Aristotle discovers power cords and shoe leather (my boots).

Is there any toy of these specifications ( or used for this expressed purpose) that you have found your little ones to enjoy fairly consistently?

-

Curt & Aristotle

 

[speakhandsforme]

Hi!! It sounds like you are doing a great job with Aristotle.

As far as canned cat food goes, he will not want to eat it at first, mainly because he doesn't know how yet. If you try to feed it to him off of your finger, you'll notice that instead of licking it off like most cats do, he'll just push his mouth against it. More of it will end up on him than in him. For now, keep mixing a little with his formula like you have been doing, and he'll warm up to it in no time.

Also for food, since he is so tiny, you might want to find a canned food specifically for kittens (unless that is the kind you already have). Any brand of canned food will work at this point, unless he has allergies to something, but you won't know that until you try. And, for future reference, any brand of commercial cat food is going to be exponentially more nutritious for your kitty than any brands of commercial dry food, mostly because canned food is actually mostly meat and also because it contains water. (By commercial, I mean the kind you find at walmart, in a 40 lb bag for $10 -- Friskies, 9Lives, etc. These brands' dry food is basically like feeding your cat french fries all day, but their wet food should be fine, although there are more expensive brands out there that are all-natural that you might want to try when he starts eating wet food in full. Check out the nutrition forums for more info, and also http://catinfo.org/)

Taurine is indeed necessary for your cat to live. As long as it is listed in the canned food you are feeding him and/or the kitten replacement milk I wouldn't worry just yet about exactly how much he's getting. And from what I remember, ash is ground-up bones of the animals they use to make cat food. Your cat would eat bones in the wild anyway.

For environment, I would let people handle him, but not while intoxicated. Accidents can happen. And I would not let him become overly distressed, so don't let a ton of new people into his area all at once. One at a time is plenty. I suggest getting him a cat carrier (these are the kind I have , although they were much cheaper than that when I bought them from Amazon) if he doesn't already have one. Put some shirts you've worn (lightly

) inside it to comfort him with your smell. Leave the door open so he can go in and out as he pleases, and don't bother him while he's inside there. The carrier can be his safe place when people are visiting him; he knows he won't be bothered in his "cave."

But he does need to be socialized. When he's out of his cage, let people touch him gently and talk to him. Getting him used to the smell of people in general is important.

Good luck, and keep us posted. More people should be along shortly to give you more in-depth info on various subjects.

 

[aristotle kitty]

Ash

Interesting. I'm sure that the ground up bone tissue is a great source of mineral content.

Handling

I have been letting most people handle him ( especially housemates), I was just grumpy at the time. At least five intoxicated individuals had asked to play with the kitten.

-

Thank you for the links! I have made him a nest with a box, some of my t-shirts and a hoodie. A cat carrier would definitely be a good investment though. I will start shopping.

Cheers : )

 

[mrblanche]

Actually, ash in cat food is whatever doesn't burn when the food is incinerated for analysis. It's mineral, vitamins, etc. It's not necessarily the ground-up bones, although that can be part of it.

It sounds like Aristotle is on his way to becoming a great little mascot for your group. Protect him just like you would an infant, because that's what he is. Be careful about where you let him wander, what you let him chew on, etc.

This is great training for domestic life later, by the way. Tell the women you have a kitten, and see if they don't think better of you!

 

[aristotle kitty]

Aristotle is four weeks old today (approximation)!

-
Re: Blanche
Mr. Blanche isn't kidding. I am currently dating a wonderful, wonderful woman who attends the same university as I do. She absolutely loves kittens and we have had a very nice time so far doing this together. She lives on the other side of campus, so she isn't always around, but she has been very willing (especially the tough first few days).
Bottle feeding the kitten (and everything else) has really helped us bond in a way very different from many of the other things we do together (dates, movies etc.)
She went out of state for the weekend and is returning with presents for Aristotle. I think she purchased a chew toy (teething), a small scratching post, a small kitty bed, and possibly one other item.

And yes, I think that this is fantastic 'training' for later-life responsibilities. I also think that it is a great acid-test (if you will) for people. There are some people in this house who have surprised me with a diminished capacity for caregiving / common sense (house full of EMT's). Others have absolutely shined and are very willing to lend a hand (normal differences between people, I know).

--
Power cords

I don't think that Aristotle has been chewing on any cords ( I don't let him roam unattended yet). I haven't spotted him doing this or found any evidence of cord-chewing... so fingers crossed right?

-

New Weight

Aristotle now weighs 14.8 Oz.

-
Litter box!
Aristotle can use the litterbox all on his own now! (#1 and #2)
He also stopped trying to chew on the clay pebbles (non-clumping anyway).
He has opted instead to dig down into the litter before using it. Unfortunately, he digs in one space and then defecates somewhere else...
I'm sure he will get the hang of it soon.

-
Eating poop?

I caught Aristotle just as he was beginning to stick his face in his feces. He pooped and then turned right around and tasted it. He had just been fed too, so no, he wasn't hungry.
Is this just kitten curiosity or is he looking for something in particular that I might be able to add to his food (minerals, etc.)? He is currently on a mix of KMR and wet canned food.

-
Regards,

"Cracked out" on caffeine & finishing boatloads of schoolwork Curt & sleeping Aristotle.

 

[mrblanche]

I've always told girls never to get serious about a guy who doesn't like cats; what he doesn't like is their independence, and if he doesn't like it in a pet, he won't like it in a wife.

I've also always wondered if going to the bar/restaurant/hangout with kitten hair on your clothes would help or hurt. "Yeah, this is from the kitten I'm fostering, and I just love it when she snuggles with me, and her hair is so fine it's almost impossible to get it off, so there it is."

I don't think Aristotle was tasting the poop. A cat will usually turn around, smell where it is, then bury it and smell that he has successfully buried it. But being young and uncoordinated, I imagine he just accidentally stuck his nose in it. Remember, cats can't focus on anything closer than about 18 inches from their eyes, from what I understand.

 

[aristotle kitty]

Diet question

   Aristotle is over four weeks old now.

  How,if at all, should the frequency of feeding change?

 He still seems to be hungry every three hours.

 He is on wet food now. He didn't require much weaning.

 I read that when they are 4+ months old that they should be fed every six hours. Is this accurate?

 Part of me says that, while he is growing, he should be allowed to eat a spoonful of wet food (or what ever under that amount fills him up) every 3-4 hours.
 

   I don't want to be feeding him too frequently if this is a possibility.

 

[speakhandsforme]

From what I understand, it is basically impossible for a young kitten to overfeed itself. They may throw up food if they are eating too fast, but they need all the nutrition their little tummy desires. I would keep feeding him every 3-4 hours if I were you, but making sure that he eats until satisfied.

 

[aristotle kitty]

That's what I thought. He is growing so much faster now.

 I have lost use of the scale I had. Im sure he is about a pound in weight now though.

Thanks for the input.

  -Curt & Aristotle

 

[speakhandsforme]

Hi! Any updates on Aristotle?