I think the shelter is getting overwhelmed.

feralvr

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Originally Posted by LDG

As Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.".
Absolutely true. Someone must take some action in this very distressing situation..... Just makes calls and more calls.....
 
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callista

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How do you make absolutely sure that the cats aren't hurt?

It seems I can't leave this alone, because if I do they might be hurt.

On the other hand, if I don't leave it alone, they might end up at a shelter.

Are there any guarantees? Ever?

This is the photo that got me so worried--

It's not the cat, particularly; he looks healthy despite the stained fur; it's that the carpet in the background is so dirty... it just makes me worry that things are getting out of hand.
 

ldg

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You think that being sick, potentially not properly cared for, and potentially living in filth is OK? You'd rather risk this than having someone investigate? Sorry, but that's beyond my comprehension.

Not having records, not knowing how many cats she has, a URI circulating... all of these mean that she is overwhelmed, and the animals suffer for it. Are you sure they're all spayed and neutered? Are "intake" cats separated? Are they caged or free roaming? How are they introduced? Are there any FeLV positive cats there? Are they kept separate? How are sick cats separated? Again - if a URI was circulating, they're not. She doesn't have proper records or procedures in place.

This might work if there are 10, 20 - maybe even 30 cats. But 60? 70? 80? More?

I'm sorry, it's not OK.

In all likelihood, there will be some kitties that need to be put down. VERY rarely in large rescue operations are all of the animals healthy enough to keep them all alive. That's why they need to be rescued - so they can receive PROPER care. But it is also very rare that animals get put to sleep because they've got colds. There are very few town or county animal control facilities that are prepared to deal with any sizeable rescue operation, and places like Best Friends, the Humane Society, or the ASPCA usually get involved. Just google hoarding rescue and search news. It happens all the time, sadly.

I don't know where you live, so I can't figure out how animal health and welfare problems get reported. If you're hesitant to call the police, then contact the HSUS and ask them how to report it locally.

Here (northern NJ), the State Police (we don't have local police, the state police are the "local" police) gave us the number of the proper contact at the ASPCA. They are responsible for all animal-related misdeamenors or felonies here, not the police. We were kept anonymous if we wanted (we didn't). They investigated the situation. If everything was fine, nothing would have been done. But there was a problem, and the vet testified, and so they prosecuted the people we reported.

In your case, you don't know there's a problem. But you have reason to suspect there is one.

I'm sorry - but if there isn't a problem, no harm is done. If there is a problem, you helped a lot of cats.

But to hold off because you're afraid some cats may be put to sleep?

If there IS a problem, yes, unfortunately some cats that under normal circumstances could be saved may end up being put down. But no more cats will be put into a situation that isn't healthy for them. It's like spaying and neutering. Yes, trapping the cats and taking them to the vet is traumatic. Some may die under anesthesia. That's rare, but it happens. Do we avoid traumatizing the cats or risking death under anesthesia? Or do we worry about preventing more homeless cats?

It's a question of priorities.

I think focusing on your fear that something will happen to the cats currently in her care is short-sighted.

And again - if there isn't a problem, nothing will happen to them anyway.
 
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callista

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Yeah, I get what you're saying. I've done TNR--there's always the risk. You take a 1% risk of a cat dying to prevent five, ten, twenty kittens from dying on the street.

If it really has gotten to the point that there are cats so sick that they can't be saved, then I'd understand that. Sometimes you can't do any better for them than that. But I want to find a way to be sure that they would not simply be added to the many unwanted healthy cats who are euthanized at shelters. Healthy cats, or cats with minor problems, should be adopted out if at all possible, but it seems like such a big job. The people who work at those shelters--the ones who have to euthanize unwanted animals--are often people who love animals and hate that there are too many of them. A life in a cage is no life for any animal, even a healthy, adoptable one; but that doesn't mean I can't hate that healthy, adoptable animals are put to sleep at shelters.

I'm in Ohio... who would I contact, who would know how to make sure that the cats wouldn't just be dumped into a county shelter where, like you said, they wouldn't have the resources to handle them all?
 

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With that many cats, and who-knows-how-many potential future cats, I'm not sure there is a way to ensure that.

Read up on your local shelter stats. Find your township's local government page, and look up the budget, see what information is available. Do they have a county shelter? Or do they contract it out? Many places contract out to the HSUS. Some are kill shelters, some aren't. Google for the name of whatever shelter it is, see if there's been anything written about it. Google the name of this woman, google the name of her shelter, see if anything's been in the news.

Ohio is a large state LOL. Perhaps PM me the name of your town, and I'll see what I can find out.
 

ldg

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Anyway, my point is, find out if you live in a "cat friendly" area or not. That will help you decide whether you try to pursue this through animal control or a different channel.
 

ldg

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Originally Posted by Callista

I'm in Ohio... who would I contact, who would know how to make sure that the cats wouldn't just be dumped into a county shelter where, like you said, they wouldn't have the resources to handle them all?
My point was that most county shelters aren't equipped to handle large rescues, so they work in concert with the humane organizations. This is how in the largest cat rescue ever (just this past summer, in Gainesville, FL), approximately 700 cats were removed from a facility, and 550 were put up for adoption. Yes, a lot of cats that might have been able to survive in another situation were put to sleep. But it saved the lives of at least 550 cats, and who knows how many future cats.
 
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callista

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This case is more like what I think I'm looking at--
Cat Rescue
This person apparently fed the cats well, neutered as many as they could afford, and just had it get out of hand.

From the googling I've been doing, it seems often they only do something once things are so bad that the cats are dying. But what if we were to start taking action when it was merely a matter of overcrowding and dirt?...
 

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Originally Posted by LDG

Many places contract out to the HSUS.
HSUS doesn't actually run shelters (well, they do run a few sanctuaries. Usually for larger animals) or support shelters. Local Humane Societies are not affiliated with HSUS at all.

Hmm, this is a hard situation. I personally would not allow any animal control/law enforcement people into my home at all (they'd have to get a warrant and even then they'd have a real fight on their hands), only because I know that people with a lot of cats are frequently stigmatized, and they would be looking for excuses to take away my cats and kill them. And while I keep things reasonably clean, perhaps it wouldn't be up to their standards. Not a risk I would take at all. So even if you do call an animal control agency, there's a possibility she wouldn't be cooperative (for good reason), and if they didn't have probable cause to get a warrant, nothing could be done.

Can you call her? Ask how things are going? Maybe see if you can round up some volunteers to help her get things cleaned up, hopefully find a few who could help her out on a regular basis. The main difference between a rescuer who is in over her head and a well-run rescue operation is the number of volunteers. . .
 

feralvr

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Originally Posted by Callista

This is the photo that got me so worried--

It's not the cat, particularly; he looks healthy despite the stained fur; it's that the carpet in the background is so dirty... it just makes me worry that things are getting out of hand.
AW hun..... this kitten doesn't look particularly healthy to me at all. And it is sitting very oddly
. Just doesn't look right to me at all.......

I really wonder if you could just call this woman.... offer some help, offer to volunteer as Willowy suggested. If you can get a first-hand look at how the cats are being housed and cared for then you would have more to go on when you report your finding. I know this will be very hard on you, but think of the cats living in that environment and those conditions. In cases like this one, there are always going to be cats that have to be "sent" to the bridge. IMO that would be more humane for them than suffering a slow death with an illness/disease that is not getting treated.

I know this putting a lot of pressure on you. We are all now feeling VERY concerned for these cats and want to help and support you to do the right thing for the cats. The right thing is "usually" not the easy thing to do.


For these kitties.....
 

feralvr

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Originally Posted by LDG

If there IS a problem, yes, unfortunately some cats that under normal circumstances could be saved may end up being put down. But no more cats will be put into a situation that isn't healthy for them. It's like spaying and neutering. Yes, trapping the cats and taking them to the vet is traumatic. Some may :YEdie under anesthesia. That's rare, but it happens. Do we avoid traumatizing the cats or risking death under anesthesia? Or do we worry about preventing more homeless cats?

It's a question of priorities.
......... Again, doing the "right" thing is never the easy thing. It is a means to an end ........... to end "future" suffering of more cats
 

ldg

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Robin, not sure why you got that message. As a PL member, I'm allowed 800 PMs in storage, and my box is at around 500-something.
But I'll go check email.


Originally Posted by Willowy

HSUS doesn't actually run shelters (well, they do run a few sanctuaries. Usually for larger animals) or support shelters. Local Humane Societies are not affiliated with HSUS at all.
Right, sorry, misspoke! Many communities contract out to local humane society type shelters. Some are no kill, others are not, and whether kill shelters are high kill depends upon the extent of the homeless animal problem in the community.

Originally Posted by Willowy

Hmm, this is a hard situation. I personally would not allow any animal control/law enforcement people into my home at all (they'd have to get a warrant and even then they'd have a real fight on their hands), only because I know that people with a lot of cats are frequently stigmatized, and they would be looking for excuses to take away my cats and kill them.
While people with a lot of cats are stigmatized, I think this situation is technically a shelter. Also, I'm not sure why you think they'd be looking for excuses to take away your cats and kill them. While there are certainly places with kill-happy animal control officers/policies, they definitely do not all fall into that category. For instance, we've seen plenty of people in the ferals forum contact animal control only to find out they were supportive of TNR efforts. I wouldn't let anyone in our home without a warrant, but only because that's the law and that's my right.

Originally Posted by Willowy

So even if you do call an animal control agency, there's a possibility she wouldn't be cooperative (for good reason), and if they didn't have probable cause to get a warrant, nothing could be done.
Unless her residence is a registered as a shelter.

Originally Posted by Willowy

Can you call her? Ask how things are going? Maybe see if you can round up some volunteers to help her get things cleaned up, hopefully find a few who could help her out on a regular basis. The main difference between a rescuer who is in over her head and a well-run rescue operation is the number of volunteers. . .
Also an excellent suggestion.
 

Willowy

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Originally Posted by LDG

While people with a lot of cats are stigmatized, I think this situation is technically a shelter. Also, I'm not sure why you think they'd be looking for excuses to take away your cats and kill them. While there are certainly places with kill-happy animal control officers/policies, they definitely do not all fall into that category. For instance, we've seen plenty of people in the ferals forum contact animal control only to find out they were supportive of TNR efforts. I wouldn't let anyone in our home without a warrant, but only because that's the law and that's my right.
Even when the AC people are supportive of TNR, this doesn't mean that cats have much chance of getting out of the shelter alive. The reason they're supportive of TNR is because it keeps cats out of the shelter (where they'll be killed).

And why do I think they'd look for excuses to remove my cats? Because they would. Cat ladies are all crazy, right? It only takes watching one episode of Hoarders to see how they're treated.

I have no idea how the inspection process works if you have a non-profit or are registered as a shelter. So maybe they have different policies. . .but that still doesn't mean she'd be cooperative. I would manage to "not be home" whenever they show up. . .I don't think they're allowed to break your door in, even if it is a shelter.
 
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callista

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Wen I did work there, I had the dickens of a time getting her to let me help out--I doubt she would let an army of volunteers in, because it's her own personal house. I think I was the first she let help her out. I pretty much pushed her into it because I was just so desperate to volunteer at a cat shelter again.

Like I've said, I don't have a way to get to her house now, because I've moved to a nearby city and I don't have a car. While it would be technically possible to get there, it would mean three miles of walking, half an hour on a bus, and then another five or six miles of walking... In other words, totally impractical.

It's been a long while, like I said. I just searched for her shelter on a whim, because I was bored and idly talking to Christy about how she must like not having to live with seventy-some other cats. And then I checked her shelter info and saw that photo of that little cat... And of course I remembered the other cats there...
 

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I can not see it being right to call ANYONE just yet unless you visit. Yes it sounds bad with high numbers but it would take a look around to know if its just a bug hitting her house and a few stains or something very serious. I know 2 other ppl with high numbers who are same as me-we dont want many other ppl in our house as a-its different having 20 cats then 2or 3 or even 5. b its a risk for infection, stress on the cats(i have ex ferals tamed to me but still afraid) and after all these tv shows people with over x amount of cats are lumped into the "automatic hoarder group" by the general public.

Someway there must be a way to get into the house-or a trusted friend can go. at least start by either email or phone to gain contact. maybe show interest in adopting another cat and have her drive you to meet them so you can choose the one right for you.
 
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callista

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That does worry me--the "automatic hoarder" thing. You have a lot of cats yourself, right? What does a reasonable level of cleanliness looks like with many cats? ("Reasonable" here meaning "not detrimental to anyone's health"; whether it looks good or not being irrelevant.) After all, I have two cats, and my furniture and clothing usually has a sprinkling of cat hair; if I had twenty equally healthy, well-socialized cats, I would expect more cat hair, even if the cats themselves were healthy and happy. And the shelters I've worked at have all smelled like animals, though the professionally-run ones were all kept clean enough not to bother either workers or animals.

How many cats can one person, with a full-time job, take care of, reasonably? Ten? Twenty?
 

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Well for one litter tracks alot worse!
I do have alot. I try to keep blankets washed a few times a week. I got rid of the carpet and went with floor paint in spots and stick on tiles.

Main concerns would be
Cats with fight wounds/skinny who are not new or under vet treatment. It would be expected that some cats may need to be separated as they may have issues with cats in general or a particular cat, especially the new ones not used to living with others.
Piles of poop/puke not cleaned up/looking old.
Not enough boxes/overflowing with waste(depending on size-I use huge totes as boxes but if shes got those vs reg cat pans take it into consideration.
Water bowls that are not fresh/at a reasonable level for the amount of cats. Same for food-if feeding all wet or at set times then how many cans or lbs of food are being put down? They will swarm at first but does it look like only the biggest/toughest get a full portion?

I have had apartment maintence in my apartment and nothing was said-it was for basic work and i put them all in the bedroom(cats room-toys and perches) had 6 visible and the limit was 2 but they were laid back if no complaints. I had a nosy!!! but sweet neighbor and the day I moved out she was in shock as she had been in apartment once. I had 18(had less but took 3 month before we bought house/moved out)

I think if you saw it you will get a feeling one way or other. Expect a bit of chaos. You know the minute you clean a litter box a cat MUST use it or soon as you wipe clean a window there is a fresh nose print.

I personally did ok working ft with 25 cats-I had 2 mini shifts a day that helped alot! My health is worse now so I am not working(may start pt in near future) so that made it easier for me to continue with the cats.
 

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The fact that the woman does not even know HOW MANY cats she has is an alarming thing! You say she vaccinates the pets, but where are the records? How does she keep up with all that?

You reported URIs. Never a good thing, especially if she can't keep up with the cats. You reported inadequate litter boxes---that's just nasty and uncomfortable for the cats.

Does she test for FIV and segregate positive ones? That would be a huge concern, not only for the kitties living there, but for their potential new owners.

If she is working fulltime and doing this "on the side," IMO, there is no way she is doing an adequate job of caring for the animals. Not with 80 plus cats. I used to catsit for my neighbor who had 30-40 cats and it would take 2-3 hours daily to do the minimum of feeding/watering/scooping.

Callista, you know in your heart what you need to do. I am done with this thread at this point. If you choose to continue to rationalize this situation, that is your choice. It would be a lot easier (and the right thing to do) just to call someone who can go and objectively examine the situation.

for the "rescued" kitties....
 

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Originally Posted by CatMom2Wires

Callista, you know in your heart what you need to do. I am done with this thread at this point. If you choose to continue to rationalize this situation, that is your choice. It would be a lot easier (and the right thing to do) just to call someone who can go and objectively examine the situation.

for the "rescued" kitties....
 
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