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menadione in By Nature canned food

post #1 of 20
10/17/11 at 6:50pm
Thread Starter 
Does anyone of you feed By Nature canned?
My cat likes it, but I just saw menadione on the label although it's not listed as part of ingredients on their website. Does anyone know if they have removed or just left it out on their website?

Thanks
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post #2 of 20
10/18/11 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by space1101 View Post
Does anyone of you feed By Nature canned?
My cat likes it, but I just saw menadione on the label although it's not listed as part of ingredients on their website. Does anyone know if they have removed or just left it out on their website?

Thanks
Only the company can answer this question. Why not give them a call and then share their response?

AC
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post #3 of 20
10/18/11 at 10:01pm
Do they list Vitamin K supplement online? Same thing. IIRC, By Nature has some recipes which have next to no veggies in them, so artificial vitamin K has to be added but I'm sure its a tiny amount (there's very little vitamin K in meat to begin with, and probably nothing after processing).
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post #4 of 20
10/19/11 at 10:12am
Thread Starter 
OK, I've reached By Nature people, and they said the organic ones do have nemadione.

It's synthetic vitamine K, which is banned from human consumption because of its potential toxicity. Now I'm wondering if I should stop giving my cat By nature organic. It's his favorite can!
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post #5 of 20
10/19/11 at 4:56pm
Herbivores and omnivores require more vitamin K than carnivores. There are many rich sources of vitamin K in various vegetables (spinach, brussel sprouts, brocolli, onions, sauerkraut, lettuce, cabbage, etc), so there is no good reason for humans to consume it. Considering feline nutritional needs, I would wager it is in such a minuscule quantity that the FDA's concerns about the effects of very high dosages is irrelevant (and besides any high dosage of fat soluble vitamin will eventually show some very toxic symptoms). By Nature is also considered a reputable top-tier brand.
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post #6 of 20
10/19/11 at 8:38pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Ducman. I just did a bit of research on menadione today. It appears that menadione is not proved toxic to pets. It is only proven toxic to human through injection of large dosage, and injecting menadione into blood stream is different from processing through gut. I think maybe I still can give By nature organic to my cat. If other people have strong reasons against it, please let me know...
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post #7 of 20
10/20/11 at 8:10pm
I avoid ALL foods with menadione. I will not make any exception for it, no matter what.

My thinking is: if it is safe and natural, why do you never see it in the premium brands of food? Evo, Innova, Wellness, Natural Balance and many others specifically do not use it because it not is guaranteed to be safe and they care about the health of their customers and won't risk it.

Read this article, I just sent it to someone else as well.. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
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post #8 of 20
10/20/11 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
My thinking is: if it is safe and natural, why do you never see it in the premium brands of food? Evo, Innova, Wellness, Natural Balance and many others specifically do not use it because it not is guaranteed to be safe and they care about the health of their customers and won't risk it.
By Nature isn't a premium brand? It sure is priced that way. Wellness, at least in the past, has used menadione in their recipes. Where did the manfuacturers say they don't use it because of health concerns? As of right now, menadione is sanctioned by the AAFCO as an acceptable ingredient even in the lofty "organic" branded recipes.

Here's a quote from Weruva about why they use it:
Quote:
Regarding menadione, it is a form of vitamin k that is a required vitamin in fish based cat foods if the formula does not naturally contain enough vitamin k and if a manufacturer intends to label the formula as a complete meal. At this time, the pet food regulations do not permit the supplementation of different forms of vitamin k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Greg Aldrich
Vitamin K is one of those nutrients that we learn of early in nutrition training as an essential fat soluble vitamin that is important in clotting. Beyond that, we seldom discuss it. Recently, however, there has been a concerted effort by a few "pet enthusiasts" to spook petfood manufacturers and well-meaning pet owners into the notion that vitamin K supplementation in the diet, specifically with vitamin K3 (menadione), is unnecessary and potentially toxic to pets.

...snip...

As for the toxicity concerns, there are no reports of nutritional toxicity of any vitamin K sources in dogs or cats readily available in the literature, and certainly no descriptions that could be found showing vitamin K3 (menadione) was harmful to dogs, cats or other domestic animals. The recent Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats (NRC, 2006) and the Vitamin Tolerances of Animals (1987) texts are authoritative reviews on the topic, and they state that toxicity of menadione by nutritional routes is in excess of 1,000 times the requirement. Further, vitamin K3 has been fed to poultry, swine and companion animals for more than 50 years without incident. So, nutritional supplementation with vitamin K3 doesn't appear to be a smoking gun.

However, the pharmacological or medical use of vitamin K to combat acute ingestion of anti-clotting agents (e.g., warfarin or coumarin) and bleeding disorders of neonates (human) associated with vitamin K deficiencies is a different story. Under these circumstances and dosages, vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) is the preferred intravenous (parenteral) source of vitamin K. Further, it has been demonstrated that intravenous administration of vitamin K3 at dosages of 100 mg/kg (which is around 100 times the nutritional requirement) may be toxic. One can speculate that this could be due to the lack of "alkylation" that occurs when vitamin K3 is administered through a route other than via the gut.

While small amounts of vitamin K are required in the diet and might be provided by whole ingredients or healthy gut fermentation, the uncertainty of these sources leads many petfood companies to supplement with commercial vitamin K3 (menadione). To provide this wee bit of "insurance" in the petfood, there is only one form availablethe water soluble, stabilized menadione (MSBC). Judicious use of nutritional vitamin K3 is clearly not toxic, so this notion that vitamin K3 as an ingredient in petfoods should not be used is unfounded and should be reversed. Further, it is hoped that through education and communication, consumers can be made aware that not all that is printed on enthusiasts' websites is correct. Also, radical nutrition positions should be compared and contrasted with current and comprehensive research literature and not just a few, potentially unrelated, experiments.

Dr. Greg Aldrich is president of Pet Food & Ingredient Technology, Inc., which facilitates innovations in foods and ingredients for companion animals.
So if pet food manufacturers are supplementing K3 with 1000 times the nutritional requirement, there is certainly cause for concern.
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post #9 of 20
10/20/11 at 10:20pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the link. After reading it, I decide not to give any more By nature organic to my cat. If anyone has any reason to think it is ok to give, please let me know....
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post #10 of 20
10/20/11 at 10:22pm
Thread Starter 
Ducman, I think we posted at the same time. I will read your post now.
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post #11 of 20
10/20/11 at 10:33pm
Thread Starter 
Ok, now I don't know any more.

But these statements from that link still kinda scare me:

"Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. It is incomplete, since my English medical terminology is lacking and I was simply not able to translate the more complicated scientific phrases into proper English:

causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
considerably weakens the immune system
possible mutagenic effects
damages the natural vitamin K cycle
has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
causes allergic reactions and eczema"

On the other hand, I also read from Azmira's website:
http://www.azmira.com/PublicationThe...eMenadione.htm

Now I can't decide. My cat really likes By nature. Can't they just use kelp?
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post #12 of 20
10/20/11 at 10:42pm
Its a judgement call.

Do you believe that a 50yr safety record and confirmation from experts and food safety industry officials that K3 is a perfectly healthy ingredient in pet food is outweighed by the results of an experiment that shows that extremely high dosages beyond even the realm of reality for cat food supplementation injected directly into the bloodstream of labrats is toxic?

If the answer is no, don't worry about it.

The funny thing is that no matter how wrong these enthusiasts sites are, no matter what, they win. If they cast even a tiny amount of doubt, consumer pressure will force manufacturers to stop using K3, as not only is it cheaper to simply remove that added insurance than try and educate consumers but then they can even advertise that it doesn't include K3 to one-up their competitors.
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post #13 of 20
10/21/11 at 2:44pm
Read under 'Things to consider' in the article I linked.

Menadione "has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food."

So basically it hasn't been proved to be unsafe, but also hasn't been proved to be safe either. So why take the chance? If it's so safe then why doesn't anyone study it to prove so? Then I wouldn't care who puts it in their food. And yes, By Nature is a premium brand, but if their organic food uses synthetic chemical supplements, then I will stick to their non-organic foods that don't. (Though now I will be reevaluating their labels.)

To Space1101- will your cat not eat the non-organic version? It still is high protein with great ingredients.
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post #14 of 20
10/21/11 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
Menadione "has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food."
Yes it has, by the AAFCO and FDA, w/ half a century track record. It has been proven not to be toxic as mentioned in the studies posted.
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post #15 of 20
10/23/11 at 2:59pm
If you could give the direct links that would be great
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post #16 of 20
10/23/11 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Yes it has, by the AAFCO and FDA, w/ half a century track record. It has been proven not to be toxic as mentioned in the studies posted.
You haven't posted any studies, only a (misleading, and dare I say, naturally so?) quote by the president of Pet Food & Ingredient Technology, Inc.

I happen to own one of the texts referenced in that quote, the NRC's Nutrient requirements of dogs and cats. The toxicity statements referred to not only do not include cats, the NRC specifically EXCLUDES them, "The toxic level of menadione in the diet is at least 1,000 times the dietary requirement of animals other than cats." (NRC, 2006, chapter 8, page 212). Furthermore, daily vitamin K supplementation has never been indicated except in the case of high-fish content canned diets of salmon and tuna (same page).

This is another reason to avoid feeding fish, not a justification for feeding a potentially harmful synthetic vitamin.

If the menadione-containing By Nature products are part of a fairly large rotation of primarily non-menadione-containing canned foods, it might be reasonable to assume the levels of menadione consumed by the cat are unlikely to reach toxicity. On the other hand, since we don't actually know what level of ingested menadione is toxic to felines, avoiding these products seems only prudent, especially as the primary or sole food source.

It's a judgement call.

Regards.

AC
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post #17 of 20
10/24/11 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post
You haven't posted any studies, only a (misleading, and dare I say, naturally so?) quote by the president of Pet Food & Ingredient Technology, Inc.
Other than cats, in the subject of cats and dogs, because cats were not specifically studied; Chicks, mice, rats, rabbits, and dogs were. Reading comprehension helps, especially when underlined, as you are correct there are NO STUDIES that show any toxicity in reasonable feeding amounts for anyone to be concerned about considering the 50 year safety record:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Greg Aldrich
As for the toxicity concerns, there are no reports of nutritional toxicity of any vitamin K sources in dogs or cats readily available in the literature, and certainly no descriptions that could be found showing vitamin K3 (menadione) was harmful to dogs, cats or other domestic animals. The recent Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats (NRC, 2006) and the Vitamin Tolerances of Animals (1987) texts are authoritative reviews on the topic, and they state that toxicity of menadione by nutritional routes is in excess of 1,000 times the requirement. Further, vitamin K3 has been fed to poultry, swine and companion animals for more than 50 years without incident. So, nutritional supplementation with vitamin K3 doesn't appear to be a smoking gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin Tolerances of Animals
HYPERVITAMINOSIS Early studies of vitamin K supplementation indicated the relative lack of toxic symptoms. *snip* From these data it can be concluded that the LD50 for a single parenteral dose of menadione or its water-soluble derivative is in the range of 75 to 200 mg/kg of BW for chicks, mice, rats, rabbits, and dogs, and the LD~n for a single oral dose is 600 to 800 mg/kg of - - - ~} v ~ -- -O - ~ BW at least for chicks and mice. These dosage levels are several orders of magnitude greater than the daily re- quirement of the vitamin. A very limited amount of data suggests that the chronic administration of a sublethal dose of menadione can produce hemolytic anemia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka
If you could give the direct links that would be great
More than what has already been provided? It wouldn't have an AAFCO endorsement to begin with. If you want to read a book on it, I suppose you could download the AAFCO publications:
Quote:
The AAFCO Official Publication (2007) lists only vitamin K3 sources as approved for use. They include menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (MDPB), menadione nicotinamide bisulfite (MNBS) and menadione sodium bisulfite complex (MSBC).
The idea that an ingredient in very long term use should be avoided because there are no studies whatsoever that demonstrate any toxicity when provided anywhere close to reasonable nutritional requirement quantities doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The only studies that do exist involve the symptoms of hypervitaminosis, intentional overdoses of vitamins, of which many other natural fat soluble vitamins show toxic symptoms as well, but is irrelevant unless one plans on injecting unusual high quantities of the vitamin to treat a unique medical condition, in which case it is not approved for such use.
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post #18 of 20
10/25/11 at 12:40am
Thread Starter 
For some reason, Joshua likes the organic ones more than the non organic. He would finish the organic ones quickly everytime I gave him. The ingredients look similar except the organic food has pea flour and menadione, which were both not listed as parts of ingredients on their website.

I kinda don't want anything that might hurt his body slowly and unnoticeably even though it might not be instantly fatal. ATM I just don't know if menadione would hurt him in that way.
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post #19 of 20
10/25/11 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by space1101 View Post
For some reason, Joshua likes the organic ones more than the non organic. He would finish the organic ones quickly everytime I gave him. The ingredients look similar except the organic food has pea flour and menadione, which were both not listed as parts of ingredients on their website.

I kinda don't want anything that might hurt his body slowly and unnoticeably even though it might not be instantly fatal. ATM I just don't know if menadione would hurt him in that way.
I personally don't find it worth the risk. If there are foods that don't contain menadione, why feed others that may contain a potentionally harmful ingrediant?

As for the labels, well lets say pet food companies are at it again. AAFCO allows at least a year and a half to use up old labels, even if they are no longer accurate. Of course, some of that time is when the products are sitting on store shelves. They still legally mislabeled them however.

Example: Merrick canned foods and the ingrediant "pearled barley". Merrick's response to the mislabeling: Pearled barley was removed from the ingrediants 1.5 years ago. We are using up labels that had already been printed, our website is correct and the product in question does not actually have pearled barley in it. AAFCO allows a span of time for us to use up the old labels.
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post #20 of 20
10/25/11 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by space1101 View Post
I kinda don't want anything that might hurt his body slowly and unnoticeably even though it might not be instantly fatal. ATM I just don't know if menadione would hurt him in that way.
I know, which is why I said before, no matter the online food enthusiasts with no degree in nutrition will always trump the actual scientists, industry leader experts, and government food industry officials by casting just enough doubt and uncertainty to cause consumers concern and the food industry to pull it for marketing reasons! After all, most will simply think "why risk it", er on the side of caution, and pick something else. Oh well, que sera sera.
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