Raw, kinda

Hi! Welcome to the raw feeders group! It's not your imagination. Extra energy was very obvious to me starting with the first raw meal I fed. Or if it is your imagination it is also every other raw feeders imagination!

Just like with commerical processed foods you'll get lots of differing opinions about which commerical raw products are better than others. There are no experts here but there are plenty of opinionated folks! I make homemade now but when I started I used commerical raw. Here's what I would look for:

Recently commerical raw manufacturers have starting taking steps to ensure their products are free of pathogens (bacteria like Salmonella and E coli). I wouldn't buy a product that didn't offer such an assurance. How necessary it is may be questionable but as it is becoming common why not take advance of the extra avaiable peace of mind? Nature's Variety, Stella & Chewy's, Bravo and Primal all incorporate some kind of process and/or procedures for ensuring their products are pathogen free. You can check the company's web site for what each company does. Look for something like "Safety Assurance". If you don't find something like that, assume they don't do anything.

Also, while cats are able to digest and metabolize small amounts of plant (veggies, fruits) substances their diet should not incorporate large amounts of it. I use 5% plant based substances as the max I want. And that is an absolute max. Less would be even better but it seems to be either 0% or 5% or greater. The company should state clearly on their web site what percentage of plant substances are included in their food. If you don't find it, assume it is more than 5%.

Variety is always a good idea if you can find more than one product you like.

At first I thought making my own was beyond what I was willing/able to do but the more I looked into it the more I realized how doable it is. I like having complete control over what I put into my fur babies food and making it is just part of my routine now.

Edit - BTW, 9 oz of wet food is an awful lot. When I fed canned my avergae sized adults (~10 lbs) ate about 6 oz a day. They eat about 4 oz a day of the more nutrient rich raw. Of course there is no single amount of food that is appropriate for every cat...

I say if she will eat Fancy Feast mixed with raw enthusiastically, then there isn't reason to feed her the dry food anymore. Feed her the mix and slowly reduce the wet and voila!: raw fed kitty!

And yes, you can indeed throw in livers and hearts.


If the only reason she is gaining weight is because she is eating 1/8th dry and 9oz wet, then getting her to loose weight will be simple. My cat is 16lbs and only needs 5.5oz to maintain weight. :P It IS hard to ignore those cries of 'Feed me mommy! I haven't eaten in DAYS!!', but if you do, you will be greatly rewarded.

Hiya, Ritz. Welcome to the raw-feeding world!

You can rapidly defrost raw foods by submerging the container/baggy in very warm water (not "hot" though, as that will start cooking the food).

Once your kitty is fully transitioned to raw (and maybe sooner) you should start to see her "feed me now!" demands tapering off. Raw prey-based diets are satisfying in a way the heavily-processed canned and kibble products can't be. Between the repetition of receiving regular, timed meals day after day, and the new feeling of satiation she will be getting on the raw diet, her food anxieties should eventually subside.

If you can afford the cost and are comfortable with the pet food manufacturer's quality control, there is no reason not to feed commercially-produced raw food! Foods that include little or no fruits and/or vegetables and a minimal ingredients list would top my preference list. As a general rule, the possible presence of bacteria doesn't bother me, but companies that offer the type of guarantee Mschauer mentions would get props for their responsiveness to public concerns and their willingness to take extra steps to address them; their products would move to the top of my list based on the hope/assumption they put the same type of care into the quality of the product itself.

You can totally add a fresh raw treat to Ritz's diet of commercially-prepared raw foods. I'd limit the liver due to its high vitamin A content and would refrain from offering her any bone-in meals, since the commercial diet should already contain the proper amount of Vitamin A and bone product (and too much of either is undesirable), but any type of fresh raw meat is acceptable. Hearts make a great treat (and most of them come in treat size ), as does lung, and gizzards are a really tough meat good for teeth cleaning.

You'll quite likely see Ritz continue to gain in energy and then begin to lose weight on this diet since she'll be getting so much of what her body needs in its natural, easily and thoroughly digestible form.

Best regards!

AC

First, my belief is that most - if not all - the commercially-prepared raw foods available today are exponentially healthier for your cat than any of the canned foods, so I wouldn't worry overmuch about buying Aunt Jeni's this time instead of Rad Cat.

That said, I'd have to call the manufacturer of this product for some clarification on their guaranteed analysis. As shown, 100% is hit (on a DMB) EXACTLY at the Ash point, meaning there should be zero carb content. The DMB conversion = 66.67 Protein, 12.50 fat, 4.17 fiber, and 16.67 ash; these numbers added together = 100. So their numbers are off no matter which way you look at it... which leads me to question all of the company's claims.

In addition, I'm pretty puzzled why the food has more ash than either fiber or fat, especially fat, which should be ~20-35% DMB of the diet!

I'd finish feeding this product and then move on to another one. Or, perhaps, pick up some Rad Cat and offer the Jeni's for breakfast and the Rad Cat for lunch and dinner (or some combination thereof).

AC

moisture + protein + fat + carb + fiber = 100%

Ash is the minerals remaining after the food has been incinerated. It should not be included in the sum as the minerals are included in the other components.

How many days does it take for you to ignore it, or for the cat to stop? lol :P
My cat meows less now that he's on wet instead of dry, and sometimes it gets to me, but the rest of the time I just say 'Oh, I Know. You haven't eaten in Days, have you? So sad. So super sad.' You just have to remember that it's their instinct to always want food whether they are hungry or not. They aren't going to starve.

I try to feed several small meals a day with most of them being at night time because that's when he's most active. As long as you pre-measure out each day, even if you feed more meals than normal, you still will be feeding the same amount, just smaller portions.


But yea, I agree with Auntie Crazy. Aunt Jeni's food calculations are all wacky, I wouldn't put too much trust in them. Maybe you could contact them and find out what happened?

No....
I don't have the link because I'm at work, but all DMB calculators tell you to include ash...

I stand corrected. There likely is no discrepancy though. It's probably just that the numbers were taken from the guaranteed analysis and those % aren't exact. Some are "minimum" amounts and some are "maximum" amounts.

That's a good update, Ritz! Changes usually happen over time, so even a slight improvement at this point is a positive sign.

I know you've already decided not to continue feeding Aunt Jeni's, but I wanted to clarify - that 4% is as-fed. In actuality, when you convert that number to a dry matter basis, it jumps to over 16% which is, in my opinion, too high. And the fat content is too low. So there are two perfectly solid reasons for not feeding this food. (Cats and ferrets actually have very similar nutritional needs, as they are both obligate carnivores.)

Regards!

AC

The low fat content might have something to do with Ritz behaving as if she's hungry, but I'm leaning toward a combination of factors, including her time on the streets.

Exactly what, how much and how often are you feeding her right now?

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This is how you convert from wet to dry percentages:

The guaranteed analysis for Aunt Jeni's food lists protein at 16%, fat at 3%, fiber as 1%, ash as 4% and a moisture content of 76%.

Subtract the moisture percentage from 100 to get 24% dry matter (24% = .24)

Divide the fat percentage (3) by .24 and you get 12.5% DMB.

You make these conversions so that you can compare various products against each other without the water content skewing the results towards the products with a lower moisture content.

AC

You would think that if they took the time to make a chart like this: http://www.auntjeni.com/GA_Cat_Food_Formulas.pdf they would have made sure their percentages were as exact as possible though.
Like Auntie Crazy said, the actual percentage of carbs is actually at 16% and cats and ferrets can have the same diets since they are the same kind of carnivores.
The reason for converting to dry is for comparison purposes. If you buy two raw foods that are 16%, you might think they are the same and so buy both of them. However, if one has 76% moisture, and the other 80%, the Actual protein percentages are vastly different. (66% vs 80%) And then if a company does not reveal how many carbs are in the food (because they are not required to), if you don't get the correct Actual percentage of protein, fat, fiber and ash, you will not get the correct percentage of carbs. And then you could be feeding 16% carbs instead of what you thought was 6%

If all they are showing is the guaranteed analysis there is no need for exactness. But if they are showing the guaranteed analysis values they should make that clear.

Edit - Actually that chart does clearly state that the protein and fat values are minimums and the fiber and moisture values are maximums.

But I'm saying, why waste the time making a chart if you aren't going to give more precise values?

I have no idea why you would consider a chart to be a waste of time just because it contains values from the guaranteed analysis. The chart is the nutritional analysis of their diets. They choose to express some nutrient values using the values from the guaranteed analysis. It's their chart. They can make it whatever they want. If you find that unacceptable I'm sure the folks at Aunt Jeni's would be delighted to hear from you.

I'm sorry I haven't responded to your answer to my question, Cindy. I'm not ignoring you, and I promise I'll respond soon (I'm close to the finishing touches of a project I'm working on).

Off the cuff, though, has Ritz been checked for worms? An infestation would cause both excessive hunger (since the worms are absorbing what she eats) and smelly, soft stools.

And, yeah, I would never feed something that contained 16% carbs DMB - that's NOT small. Small is less than 10% DMB!

AC

Hmm, yea, I might get some other tests done as 6oz of wet + 2-3oz of raw is quite a lot of food still.

On the flip side, are you feeding her when she asks for food? If so, that could explain why she always cries for food. She can't discern between when a meow will get her food and when it won't. I would set specific meal times and no food inbetween (no matter what!) and see how that goes if a vet visit does not reveal anything.

I would go ahead and switch Ritz completely over to raw. If she's hungry because her sense of satiety isn't being triggered by the canned foods, the raw diet should address that completely.

If there no medical reason for her hunger and stool issues, putting her on raw will likely correct them both.

(I might also suggest you pick up some digestive enzyme, probiotic and antioxidant supplements. These are very beneficial to cats with digestive issues, as they help return the intestinal tract to its healthy state. Dr. Hofve goes into detail on what to look for when choosing these supplements in her article: Top 4 Pet Supplements.)

Since you're currently feeding 8-9 ounces of food a day, I'd start with 8 ounces of raw per day: three in the morning, two right after you get home from work, and three in the evening just before you go to bed. After some time (which will be solely dependent on the cat), she'll probably start to taper down on her own, and you can start feeding her less and less until she's at about 2% of her body weight (don't go any lower than that). Somewhere between 2 and 3% of her body weight, she should begin to lose weight... you want her to drop just a couple of ounces a week, so you should be monitoring her weight every week.

It could also be she's reacting to additives in the canned foods that cause cats to keep eating just because it tastes so good. Kibble is notorious for this, but it happens with canned foods, too. Switching to raw will address this issue as well.

Finally, and only because I want you and your kitty to be well, I need to tell you that if you're really stressing over how much your cat eats, you could very well be causing part of the problem. Both because you could be transferring your anxiety to the cat and because it sounds as though you are responding to all her cries with tasty food, regardless of why she's actually meowing. As Minka mentioned, this may be reinforcing in her mind that any distress should be addressed with food.

To solve the second half of that equation, you really should set three defined times in a 24 hour period for feeding and feed only at those set times, no matter how much the kitty cries.

For the anxiety, if you think it's possible some of your stress is rubbing off on the cat, I'd recommend you get some Feliway. This stuff is amazingly effective. You'll need one plug-in per average-sized room and Amazon.com has by far the best pricing I've seen yet. I've used it to help lower stress in my own cats when I was fostering and it was unmistakably effective at reducing the number and intensity of feline disputes.

I have a cat, Spencer, who walks around the house just talking to himself. Sometimes, he sounds really plaintive and I have to go and see what he's doing; invariably, he's just complaining to the world in general about nothing at all - annoying, maybe, but nothing I need to address. (Actually, I find it kind of amusing and always poke fun at him for it. ) The next time your little girl cries for food outside of her new mealtimes, why not pull out a kitty laser pointer toy or whip out a brand new Da Bird? Playing with her like that will make both of you happier.

Good luck, honey! Problems with our beloved furchildren can be soooo difficult to manage sometimes, especially if we're dealing with issues of our own. Sending many, many thoughts of healing to you both.

AC

For no reason other than it's what she's been accustomed to eating and you were concerned she may still have been hungry.

Forget about calories. I'm serious. Calories don't matter with a cat NEARLY as much as the source of those calories. Cats quite thoroughly and easily convert animal protein and fat into energy and fuel for every system in their bodies, but labor over converting carbs, digest them poorly, and turn those carb calories directly into fat. So a cat switched from a mid-calorie carb-heavy diet to a high-calorie animal-protein diet can (and often does) LOSE weight even though she's consuming more calories.

I would recommend dealing with her transition first, and addressing her weight afterward (if, in fact, it still needs addressing by that point).

AC

I don't know how big the scale you are getting is, but mine is quite large and I just set it on a table my cat uses to look outside, she doesn't even notice if I turn it on and set her on it. My cat used to cry and cry for food horribly, she barely begs at all now, after about 6 months of mostly raw, (I've been cutting her slowly off canned, she gets it once a week or so now max).

Now, I must ask: Did your vet confirm that she needs to lose weight? I don't say this very often, but Ritz does not look overweight at all. Do you have any more top view photos of when she is laying down, or crouched down while she is eating? Some examples from my fat cat: