What would you do? (FIV, allergies, ugh)

minka · Sep 9, 2011

What would you do in my situation??

As some may know, my cat Grimalkin has been losing fur on his tummy and legs, presumably from over-grooming.

Well, so I got him to the vet today and he thinks it's allergies.

He was going to put him on prednisone, but then I reminded him that Grim is FIV+. Since I couldn't remember if Grim had been officially tested for FIV, he did another test. Grim came up as not only being FIV+, but also being immune suppressed, so no prednisone allowed.

So we talked a lot about allergies, and what we can do, and he thinks the first step is to see if it's a food allergy. So of course, out comes the z/d. While he was out of the room, I looked at the book he brought out on skin conditions, and I saw a hypoallergenic food that looked much more promising than the others: Iams Eukanuba Veterinary Diets Response Formula LB, which not only comes in canned, but the first ingredient isn't a veggie or by-product like the others. I asked him if I could try this one instead. He said he wasn't sure since they don't carry it, and they know that the Hills works; he said we wanted to use the hydrolyzed proteins. So then I asked him if I could use the wet version then. He seemed hesitant, but said that would be fine. (Wet isn't hydrolyzed though...) They were out of it, so they would have to order, but the price really scares me. $54 for 24 cans. >___<

Okay, now before I give my options, here is some random info and good things from today:
Firstly Grim has no ear infections!

His ears are as clean as a whistle. The vet thinks the itchiness and head shaking is just another symptom of allergies.
The vet was Highly surprised at how well Grim has been losing weight.

He wanted to know exactly what I was feeding and commented 'well, whatever you are doing, it's working.' (Although he was so surprised he was skeptical and thought it might be a symptom of something. But after he saw Grim's bloodwork from March, he decided it wasn't.)
Somewhere in between talking about how he may be allergic to what I'm feeding him, he mentioned that other patients there feed 'home-made diets'!!!

The new diet has to be implemented for 90 days in order to know if it is effective.

SO... if you were in my situation, what would you do:

A. Get rid of the new food (Blue Buffalo) and new litter that I introduced this month (because there was no over-grooming before then) and keep an eye out for improvement.

B. Chose a non-prescription diet like Natural Balance LID (since not only were LID diets in the vet book, but also the canned he approved wasn't hydrolyzed anyways)

C. Find a vet that will prescribe the Iams LB and use that since it was in the veterinary book

D. Buy the HILLS d/d canned either from PFD or my vet

E. Bite the bullet and buy the dry Hills z/d originally prescribed

ldg · Sep 9, 2011

Chumley is our FIV kitty. He had the same symptoms. We went directly to z/d. Unfortunately, we used a mix of canned and dry. The dry has Brewer's Rice in it, one of the things we're pretty sure is a problem for him, so obviously he didn't improve on the z/d diet. Don't bother with z/d dry. I'm not sure why you say the chicken liver (first ingredient) in z/d canned isn't hydrolyzed. It is: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-...ee-canned.html. If you decide to try the z/d, use only the wet. I doubt the Iams LB costs less, but if you prefer the ingredients.... actually, I just looked it up. http://www.iams.com/cat-food/iams-ve...onse-lb-feline Given it's not a hydrolyzed protein, basically just lamb, you may prefer just going with a limited ingredient diet.

If there was no overgrooming before the new litter, go back to the old one.

Chumley had a problem with Blue Buffalo.

You know what I did.

minka · Sep 9, 2011

Firstly I want to say thanks for trying to help. *hug* I know there are so many factors that go into this, my head is spinning.. X___X

Originally Posted by LDG

Chumley is our FIV kitty. He had the same symptoms. We went directly to z/d. Unfortunately, we used a mix of canned and dry. The dry has Brewer's Rice in it, one of the things we're pretty sure is a problem for him, so obviously he didn't improve on the z/d diet. Don't bother with z/d dry. I'm not sure why you say the chicken liver (first ingredient) in z/d canned isn't hydrolyzed. It is: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-...ee-canned.html. If you decide to try the z/d, use only the wet.

Okay, I guess I'm causing confusion here already. xDD
The book that I read listed z/d DRY and d/d WET in it. So I didn't know that z/d WET existed. (though I guess I should have)
The book listed all these different foods and their main ingredients (I simplified them here): z/d - rice, rice, rice, hydrolyzed chicken items ; d/d - lamb by-products, lamb liver, rice ; Iams LB - lamb (liver, tripe, meat), barley, lamb meal
(Hills d/d is different now, it's made with venison, but that doesn't matter too much.)

I doubt the Iams LB costs less, but if you prefer the ingredients.... actually, I just looked it up. http://www.iams.com/cat-food/iams-ve...onse-lb-feline Given it's not a hydrolyzed protein, basically just lamb, you may prefer just going with a limited ingredient diet.

See, that's what I was thinking. If the vet book recommends LID's and the vet (unknowingly) approved the d/d which is LID, it may be a good starting point for me.

If there was no overgrooming before the new litter, go back to the old one.

As soon as I get off of work tomorrow, I will pick up a bag of the old litter. It may be that when he squats, his tummy skin touches the litter and it annoys him. And I know he still prefers the old litter. (So much for saving the environment

)

Chumley had a problem with Blue Buffalo.

Hmm, maybe we should request a warning for the label.

You know what I did.

Yes, and if this doesn't work, that's where I'll be going.

just mike · Sep 9, 2011

Minka;3114035 said:
What would you do in my situation??

I'm far from being a vet but if I were in your shoes I would do A first. It's how I voted. If A does not work then I would try one of the other courses of action.

GOOD NEWS about the ear infections. Or lack thereof I should add

ldg · Sep 9, 2011

I do agree with Mike. Before you go nuts, change the litter back, and feed him whatever you were before Blue Buffalo.

Which litter did you switch to? The corn or the wheat? If it's one of those, both are potentially allergans! It could be that simple!

sharky · Sep 9, 2011

I would do E first ... for 8-12 weeks( partly to ensure all the old food is out of system) ... if you see improvement you know for sure it is a allergy .... then either a LID or the Prior food ....

So E first then b or a

minka · Sep 9, 2011

Thanks for your opinion Michael. (Isn't that what you said you liked to be called?)

Originally Posted by LDG

I do agree with Mike. Before you go nuts, change the litter back, and feed him whatever you were before Blue Buffalo.

Which litter did you switch to? The corn or the wheat? If it's one of those, both are potentially allergans! It could be that simple!

I think if I do this, I will also pick only one food to feed him. The question is, Innova or Before Grain?

I switched first to pine pellet litter, but it was a flop because pine litter smells funky. :< Now I'm on pine/corn that has the texture of clay. I'll switch back to FreshStep tomorrow.

Originally Posted by sharky

I would do E first ... for 8-12 weeks( partly to ensure all the old food is out of system) ... if you see improvement you know for sure it is a allergy .... then either a LID or the Prior food ....

So E first then b or a

I just REALLY don't want to switch him to dry food again. It's been a struggle to get his weight down to under 17lbs, and I don't want to lose that progress.

And then of course the ingredients are hideous and since he still can't fully groom himself, I worry that the rest of his coat will go to poop again and he'll have dandruff.. Ugh.

sharky · Sep 9, 2011

BG wet would make a good trial ... just check to see it says complete diet NOT suppelemental/... you can under a vets care do a supplemental as a main diet but only for a few weeks

minka · Sep 9, 2011

Originally Posted by sharky

BG wet would make a good trial ... just check to see it says complete diet NOT suppelemental/... you can under a vets care do a supplemental as a main diet but only for a few weeks

Before Grain is a complete diet.

caramelblond · Sep 10, 2011

Hi Minka,

I'm new and don't know that much about foods yet. Mine is on a wet/dry diet of Evo but I am now considering a raw diet. Lots to research. What I do know is that the litter I am using is less dusty and that made me think that maybe it isn't that his tummy is touching the litter but that the "burying" process is stirring up the dust and it is floating up to his tummy. Just a thought. I use a fiber pulp/wheat pellet combo from Healthy Pet. It comes in corn and wheat pellets(not a combo), paper fiber, paper/wheat combo and a sweat pea type (tried this one, smelled nicely of mint but way too powdery). I get it at the local ranch supply but I bet a good pet supply would order it for you if you don't have a ranch supplier close. I like that it has less dust and is not perfumed. Safe for the environment (biodegradable) and my cat and I. He has chronic URI and the dusts and perfumes made it worse. I agree that I would switch back to the food before Blue (I've heard about it causing allergies) but I would try to stick to a natural litter that isn't clay or perfumed. Swheat scoop is good (I used to use this one) but I don't like the dust for Buddy.

Good luck

momto4kitties · Sep 10, 2011

In Luca's case, I tried blue buffalo, I tried changing the litter, i eliminated all perfumes, changed my detergent to hypoallergenic, I did everything. The prednisolone never helped his allergies. The only food that worked for him was the Hills z/d.

I hope your kitty gets better soon.

HUGS!

just mike · Sep 10, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

Thanks for your opinion Michael. (Isn't that what you said you liked to be called?)

LOL, it's my preference but Mike is fine. I've been called much, much
worse

I am real interested in your litter change and how you go about acclimating your meezers to the new litter. Let me know what you go with because I really want to make a change but... I ... AM ... very ... afraid

ldg · Sep 10, 2011

Originally Posted by Caramelblond

Hi Minka,

I'm new and don't know that much about foods yet. Mine is on a wet/dry diet of Evo but I am now considering a raw diet. Lots to research. What I do know is that the litter I am using is less dusty and that made me think that maybe it isn't that his tummy is touching the litter but that the "burying" process is stirring up the dust and it is floating up to his tummy. Just a thought. I use a fiber pulp/wheat pellet combo from Healthy Pet. It comes in corn and wheat pellets(not a combo), paper fiber, paper/wheat combo and a sweat pea type (tried this one, smelled nicely of mint but way too powdery). I get it at the local ranch supply but I bet a good pet supply would order it for you if you don't have a ranch supplier close. I like that it has less dust and is not perfumed. Safe for the environment (biodegradable) and my cat and I. He has chronic URI and the dusts and perfumes made it worse. I agree that I would switch back to the food before Blue (I've heard about it causing allergies) but I would try to stick to a natural litter that isn't clay or perfumed. Swheat scoop is good (I used to use this one) but I don't like the dust for Buddy.

Good luck

My thoughts on litter.... if allergies are suspected, avoid a litter with strong scents or allergans - or any scent at all. Go for unscented. Corn and wheat are known and common allergans. We use cheap litter - Walmart Special Kitty in the green box. (It is 99.9% dust free - though not as dust-free as the Dr. Elsley Prescious Cat Allergan Litter). It is unscented. Chumley doesn't have a problem with it, and he's got compromised lungs/nasal passages (not technically asthma) from damage from untreated URI as a kitty.

Also, Caramelblond, I don't know if you'll be back to this thread, but Minka's kitty is FIV+ (which slowly attacks and destroys the immune system), with additional immune problems. Raw diets are NOT recommended for cats with immune system problems because they're too susceptible to any problems that may arise from bacteria or parasites (toxoplasma gondii) in uncooked food.

minka · Sep 10, 2011

Originally Posted by Caramelblond

Hi Minka,

I'm new and don't know that much about foods yet. Mine is on a wet/dry diet of Evo but I am now considering a raw diet. Lots to research. What I do know is that the litter I am using is less dusty and that made me think that maybe it isn't that his tummy is touching the litter but that the "burying" process is stirring up the dust and it is floating up to his tummy. Just a thought. I use a fiber pulp/wheat pellet combo from Healthy Pet. It comes in corn and wheat pellets(not a combo), paper fiber, paper/wheat combo and a sweat pea type (tried this one, smelled nicely of mint but way too powdery). I get it at the local ranch supply but I bet a good pet supply would order it for you if you don't have a ranch supplier close. I like that it has less dust and is not perfumed. Safe for the environment (biodegradable) and my cat and I. He has chronic URI and the dusts and perfumes made it worse. I agree that I would switch back to the food before Blue (I've heard about it causing allergies) but I would try to stick to a natural litter that isn't clay or perfumed. Swheat scoop is good (I used to use this one) but I don't like the dust for Buddy.

Good luck

But see, there were no itchy skin symptoms with the clay litter, so I'm not worried about it having bothered him. It's the pine/corn litter now that could be causing it.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

LOL, it's my preference but Mike is fine. I've been called much, much
worse

I am real interested in your litter change and how you go about acclimating your meezers to the new litter. Let me know what you go with because I really want to make a change but... I ... AM ... very ... afraid

When I first started from clay to pine pellets, I simply added a handful of pellets to his litter everyday. Unfortunately as I was almost done, I realised pine smells awful and switched to a pine/corn non-pellet litter. This one was easer, just mixed the clay and pine/corn together. He doesn't like it as much as the clay though.

P.s. - only one meezer

minka · Sep 12, 2011

Update: I have decided to put Grim back on his old food and litter (Innova, Before Grain chicken & quail) and only use Seventh Generation cleaners in my room.

Can anybody think of something else I should do?

ldg · Sep 12, 2011

Now that you know he's had "the itchies," or something causing him to lick/mow his fur like that, do you see the behavior? If so, you should be able to tell pretty quickly (within a week or two at most) if the change is helping.

If you don't see it, then you'll just have to "watch the grass grow" (wait to see if the hair grows back in). It takes the hair on the abdomen a long time to grow back in, but the hair on his legs should grow in pretty quickly. We noticed the change in Chumley's grooming long before we saw a difference in his fur though.

I think that's a good plan. It's almost better not to change too many things at once, so you know what the source of the problem is.

The only other thing I can think of is to use Seventh Generation or some other unscented, chemical/dye-free stuff for the laundry.

just mike · Sep 13, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

Update: I have decided to put Grim back on his old food and litter (Innova, Before Grain chicken & quail) and only use Seventh Generation cleaners in my room.

Can anybody think of something else I should do?

I'm not familiar with the Seventh Generation cleaners. I use Paw Safe. I don't know what the dif would be but that is a possible alternative if you want to check it out

minka · Sep 16, 2011

Originally Posted by LDG

Now that you know he's had "the itchies," or something causing him to lick/mow his fur like that, do you see the behavior? If so, you should be able to tell pretty quickly (within a week or two at most) if the change is helping.

If you don't see it, then you'll just have to "watch the grass grow" (wait to see if the hair grows back in). It takes the hair on the abdomen a long time to grow back in, but the hair on his legs should grow in pretty quickly. We noticed the change in Chumley's grooming long before we saw a difference in his fur though.

I think that's a good plan. It's almost better not to change too many things at once, so you know what the source of the problem is.

The only other thing I can think of is to use Seventh Generation or some other unscented, chemical/dye-free stuff for the laundry.

That's the thing, I never really saw him over-grooming. He does a lot of normal grooming: his paws, his sides, his butt, etc; but none of those areas have hair loss. I see him lick his legs and tummy, but only once a day. Only two times did I actually see him nibbling the fur on his stomach. But I guess I will watch the areas and compare photos to make sure it's not spreading.

ldg · Sep 25, 2011

OK, I know it's only been a week, but.... any sign of him nibbling the fur on his tummy since you changed things?

sharky · Sep 26, 2011

honestly if it were me STEAM would be the only cleaner... 7th generation is a far cry from most commercial stuff but it still has potential for causeing issues

What would you do? (FIV, allergies, ugh)

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