Interesting Article on Racism.

I don't really agree with the "America is going to hell" idea; but she is right in that racism is still a problem. It's not as much of a problem as it used to be, but it still is.

Sometimes, old ideas don't really die out until the people who hold them die out. So it won't be my generation which finally rids itself of prejudice against black people--it'll be the younger generation, the people who are in elementary school right now, the kids who grew up knowing that the presidency wasn't limited to white people, that you could be a movie star or a doctor or a writer or whatever, and it didn't have to do with your skin color. We try to teach them that; but people as old as me and older are still operating on the old ways, still a little bit more scared if a black guy stops them to ask directions than if a white guy does.

Oh, it's not like we're consciously biased. For the most part, we're not. But look at it this way: If you had to wade through mud for an hour, no matter how much you valued cleanliness and how much you hated mud, you'd still get mud on you. Racism is in the environment. You soak it up and you have to consciously combat it. You have to get to know people of all different sorts, understand how they are different, learn to treasure the differences instead of being intimidated by them. You've got to stop idealizing or devaluing or stereotyping those people. And it's a life-long struggle, because the second you stop scrubbing mud off, you start getting dirty again.

Our kids--the people who are really little now--might not have to work so hard. Maybe the mud will dry up and they won't have to consciously tell themselves that the black kid who sits next to them in school, or the little girl with the headscarf, or the Spanish-speaking family across the street, is okay just like they are. Maybe they'll just take it for granted that people are different. Maybe they'll see differences as a neutral fact, or as part of what makes the world interesting. I hope so.

I do believe racism is so thick in this country. Not just to the African people, but many different ethnic groups.

It is a scary thought, especially when I freely see people throw around their ethnic racism without any indication to themselves that they are even being racist and would deny it to the end of the world. There is no change with denial.

Racism is a problem, but I think that it works both ways. There is racism against white people as well, but it seems like if you ask the non-white people, that it doesn't actually count as racism....

And even more ludicrous is when it has to be called "reverse-racism", reinforcing the idea that the "evil white man" to blame for all ills in society somehow has a monopoly on racism.

Blacks are a minority, and yet America voted in a president that identifies himself as black. Still there are outcrys that racism is worse than ever. We have school institutions that were awarding twice as many points for being black as they were for a perfect SAT score, and yet there are still crys of racism against blacks. The city of New Haven claimed that they threw out the results of the lieutenant and captain exams when it was determined that few minority firefighters qualified for advancement, as they specifically feared liability under a disparate-impact statute for issuing tests that discriminated against minority firefighters (which luckily the Supreme Court cited is unconstitutional upon complaint of the employees). And yet STILL we hear that slavery is virtually still in effect.

The question of course is why is this so grossly blown out of proportion and hyped up by some. Politicians and certain leaders such as Al Sharpton have found that they can harness a lot of power by reinforcing racial division, as if you can convince a group they are being victimized then you can unite them behind your banner. Shelby Steele stated in his book on race relations that there is no difference between white-guilt and black-power, and this naturally demonstrate another group that wishes to exaggerate instances of racism for their benefit as well. Lastly, you have the white liberals that perpetuate the seeming self-degradation as a means of affirming and congratulating themselves on their personal innocence to feel elevated above their peers. These three groups, all motivated by self-interest, combined can unfortunately be extremely vocal and thus completely misrepresent race relations in this country, which ultimately only helps to reinforce division.

Ah, yes, we know all about "reverse racism". That is what the racists cry when they get caught. The most recent example, a black man ran down and murdered in Mississippi, with the white teen bragging about having "killed that It was all captured on video, and when the teen was arrested, what does his great Aunt put on the Facebook page created by his supporters? Why this, of course...
"Reverse Racism" equates to the "scalded dog" defense. And anyone that thinks racism in America is nothing more than liberal imagination, obviously only reads the news they want to hear.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77I4YE20110819
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...ibrary-gorilla
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...9bb30f31a.html
http://www.infozine.com/news/stories...iew/sid/48853/
http://www.wlky.com/r/3783957/detail.html
http://calcoastnews.com/2011/03/cros...grande-family/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77H70420110818
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...-crime-charges

Racism is racism, regardless of which races are on what side. "Reverse Racism" is a racist invention to attempt to justify being racist.

Well--if you want to split hairs, prejudice by a less-powerful group against a more-powerful group does have a somewhat different dynamic than prejudice by a more-powerful group against a less-powerful one.

I see often the attempt by people who have often been mistreated by a more-powerful group to declare themselves superior to that group. It's like, rather than realizing they can declare equality, they feel like someone has to be on top, and they'd rather it be them.

That's a different thing than the taken-for-granted prejudice that you see in the more-powerful group, where you'll have people just assuming that they're on top without really thinking about it that much. There's much less awareness of prejudice in this group; whereas with the less-powerful group, there tends to be hyper-awareness and even paranoia.

Sure, it's prejudice either way, but the two types might have different solutions.

There are at minimum 307,006,550 citizens in the United States right now.

Just this week I posted an article that happened right here in my home town: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=235266
about a 19 year old impregnates his 12 year old adopted mentally disabled sister, and mom tries to hide the evidence of the assault by getting the child a late-term 22week abortion out of state, before being found out in a video taped interview when the child was questioned due to the suspicious circumstances.

Yes, it happened. Yes, it is tragic. No, incestuous rape is not at epidemic proportions.

Now if you want to look at interracial violence, by all means, lets look at actual statistics to see how bad it really is.

Crime in the United States has been in steady decline with tremendous progress, with today's low numbers not seen since the 60s, and the ever high homicide rate down from 10.2 in 1980 to 5.0 in 2009 which is extremely location specific to high crime/drug-traffic areas such as Detroit and Atlanta. Overall violent crime is far below the UK, Denmark, Finland, and others per capita as well. Interracial crime is statistically very rare, and the majority of that is black on white crime (~18%), and very little white on black crime (~4%).
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

Cliffs Notes: Statistically, crime is at an all time low and there is very little interracial crime, and of that interracial crime, the probability of a white man attacking a black stranger is 4.5 times less likely than a black man attacking a white stranger.

There doesn't seem much to add to this:
On Race, the Silence Is Bipartisan

Is that a racial issue, or an education/skillset issue? The United States has never ever been about equality, it has been about equal opportunity.

White students are scoring higher on standardized national SAT tests. That's a matter of statistical fact. And before someone says this is just about income, look at other facts. In 2006, whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 130 points higher than the national mean for all blacks. Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 17 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of more than $100,000.

And the white kids are similarly under-performing compared to asian students, who also happen to be a minority even smaller than the black population.

So its not just about family income and its not about majority/minority status in society, so what is the X-factor? Opinions can vary, and IMO its a cultural difference, but the point is that equal opportunity is there, and if that opportunity is squandered there is little to gain from pointing the finger and trying to find a scapegoat. In fact, relying heavily on that scapegoat and blowing up the issue of racism far out of proportion to externalize personal limitations/challenges can do significant damage IMO and may be part of that X-factor. Asian-Americans for example are a tiny minority and surely encounter prejudice like everyone else, but you don't ever really hear of them pulling the race card and there is no real Asian version of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson and the like organizing marches. And they are excelling on standardized tests and grossly overrepresented in universities, especially in California after repealing affirmative action, and this will place them into high paying secure jobs as adults (having worked at several hospitals, notice how many East-Asian doctors are walking around). Look at other non-racial minority groups like homosexuals and Jewish Americans, and they surely encounter some prejudice, but are excelling well beyond the national average.

Nice try, but as normal, missing the mark. Incestuous rape is an action, while racism is an attitude that can lead to an action. And I see the attitude everywhere I go, to include many members of my extended family and a couple from my immediate family, and the majority of of co-workers. You do not have any statistics on how many racists there are, other than how many use the idiom of "reverse racism".

It all goes back to the original posts, where a majority of racists in American do not consider themselves racist because they have never burned a cross on someone's lawn, yet will quite quickly use the "I'm not racist, but..." intro, or the "it's not racist, it's the truth" when referring to an attribute they assign to an entire race, due to race, such as laziness or reduced intelligence.

And as an aside, you notice that you've moved the goal posts, yet again. You went from seeing racism as being entirely a liberal invention to now seeing it, but insisting that it be in "epidemic proportions".

Has anyone here tried to apply for a federal job? It's ridiculous. You get extra "points" if you are black, Hispanic, or any other ethic origin other than white. The only thing I have going for me is that I'm female (which I guess is still an advantage) but I'm just slightly ahead of the other part of the population that unfortunately was born white and male. Needless to say, I'm never going to get a government job, but someone that didn't finish high school will just because they have to meet a quota.

Remove all quotas from collages and universities, remove all quotes from job requirements, and there would be no discrimination. Everyone would be taken at face value, no their ethic origin.

The idea that any government agency has to hire an unqualified applicant simply to hire a minority is absolute mythology.

Anyone who actually knows they were passed over for hiring in order for the employer to hire a completely unqualified minority should sue...they have a valid case.

Racism that is not acted upon is not only unquantifiable, but completely irrelevant. And you produced articles of actionable white "hate crimes" (another joke, a crime is a crime) on blacks, which is quantifiable, but as demonstrated is not only extremely rare per government statistics but 4.5 times less likely than a black man assaulting a white stranger. And if racism and bigotry is such a tremendous problem, then how do you explain why some minorities like east-asian americans are by and large so successful as pointed out? Or as mentioned, I am sure many here from their own life experience can note that today homosexual males encounter a lot more bigotry than blacks, and yet statistics demonstrate a higher level of education than average, and mean incomes accordingly. You also see no relevance between how well someone does in school would have an impact on their job security and income as adults?
Amen to that, and it would remove any concern that someone part of a group given preferential treatment might be less qualified than his or her peers. California believe it or not has led the way here when they passed the California Civil Rights Initiative which prohibits public institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...tion_209_(1996)

There is no better way to get rid of barriers than to treat everyone equally. After all, imagine if the parents of four had unique rules and favoritism for each child. Simple human nature tells us its common sense that this will only reinforce division.

I was fairly certain you felt that way, and have been waiting for you to put it into a post, so that I could point out your obvious bias. You see, you just stated that if an attitude is not acted upon, it is not only unquantifiable, but completely irrelevant...yes?

Therefore, any Muslim that does not act on any ideas they may have, makes their ideas ALSO irrelevant...yes? Therefore, only a tiny, tiny percentage of the world's Muslims are to blame for "Islamic" terrorism...by your own statements...yes? And therefore, there is no need to blame any others for not "speaking out"...yes?

Or do you wish to retract that and try again?

You've just made it clear you didn't read the links, because they reflected cases of racism of numerous races discriminating against numerous races.

And the tests you mention are only of students, not applicants. Pitting the researchers academically against the minorities used to fill the sports programs under the school's illegal, self imposed "quotas" is hardly an indicator of anything other than the importance of sports dollars to the schools. Sad, isn't it.

To reiterate, yes, only a tiny percentage of the world's Muslims are to blame for acts of terrorism. However, the context of the previous article was to ask that Islamic religious leaders and members of the religion at large be more vocal in opposition to the violent minority that exists within their religion. This is absolutely correct, as it is a fact that the overwhelming majority of violent terrorists in the world today are being recruited and trained in Mosques around the world, and just as in any religion some self-policing and vocal condemnation to distance themselves from this group is a reasonable expectation. This really was discussed ad nauseum in the other thread if you need even more detail.
Let me get this straight, you believe that SAT tests are taken at the college level? You're kidding me right? These are tests administered in highschool, so again, please explain why some minorities including those that experience far more discrimination than blacks by most accounts, are doing so well. And remember, you can't use income as white students from family's with incomes under $10K were not only outperforming the black students at large, but even the select demographic of black students from family's with incomes over $100K. My personal opinion on that X-Factor is a cultural difference on the importance placed on academics by parents, the media entertainment outlets and messages of their respective role models, and the liberal dogma they are indoctrinated with that assures them they are victims and encourages them to blame any personal failure on "the man" due to left-winger politicians, bleeding hearts, and black leaders capitalizing on strife.

But those that aren't acting on it are irrelevant, right? Not part of the issue. You just said so. Therefore, they need have nothing to do with it.

And it wasn't "asking". It was demanding, with the failure to do so being branded just as bad as, or worse, than terrorists.

So your entire stance on just about any subject depends on whether you consider your group the victims, and is reversed entirely if it's your group victimizing another. Good for us, bad for "them". Got it!

I have no idea what point you were just trying to make there, but at least I take it that you realize that SAT courses are in fact taken in highschool now and so you are not able to explain why black students are underperforming at all income levels and likewise are unable to make the connection on how education could relate to their job security and household incomes as adults or why other minorities and those discriminated against far greater than blacks by most accounts are excelling beyond the national average. When the facts don't jive with your opinion or at least leave gaping holes, it might be time to step back and reevaluate things. Or exactly how do you rationalize those questions?

You DO realized that the SAT is questionable, controversial, and more and more considered a poor indicator, right? Enough that colleges all over the country are no longer using it in admissions? The SAT's biggest plus now is supporting the claim that "x is dumber than z". A point some groups love to flaunt to cover their true agendas.

Don't forget this one.

No, actually its the best currently available standardized test, and is not even optional for the overwhelming majority of Universities. Those that don't require it will only accept if an alternative such as the ACT is provided (yeah, and the results on the ACT show the same thing btw). And if the problem is merely that the test sucks, then how do you explain the statistical and very significant difference between how asian, white, and black students are scoring? They are all taking the same tests, so whether or not you think its perfect, why are the results so very consistent year after year after year? And you're honestly asking me about my familiarity with SAT tests, when earlier you didn't even realize they were given in highschool for college placement...

You do at least concede that how one does in school has a significant impact on the job income and job security of the person as an adult, right?

Interesting. All the recent articles on the subject seem to shoot the "economic status isn't a factor" argument completely FULL of holes. Even defenders of the SAT test claim that it's a factor.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/sat
http://www.wect.com/story/15356225/e...-sat-is-biased

In fact, it's losing it's credibility left and right...

http://www.suntimes.com/7404500-417/...l-seniors.html
http://www.wect.com/story/15356225/e...-sat-is-biased

And just for the record, it would appear that "doing well" in California isn't as big a deal as some would make it.

http://californiawatch.org/dailyrepo...ta-shows-12222

It does as long as they're not discriminated against. Which, according to many of the professional educators I just linked about, the test is doing.
O'rly? That's not what the articles I posted say...it says that schools are dumping them both.

Bzzzzt! Economic status is a huge factor. Students from families of higher income levels scored higher. What was demonstrated as absolute fact were the national averages which show that the poorest white students, with family incomes below $10,000, were not only outperforming black students at large, but were still outperforming the demographic of black students with family incomes above $100,000.

So yes, economic status is a factor, but no the poorest segment of white students are still averaging higher than the richest segment of black students. What's the X-Factor?
Even on the math portion of the test? The math scores are well below as well, please explain what a "racist math question" looks like, and how it gives asian and white kids an advantage. *pops some popcorn*

I'm going to point out that I somehow managed to get a job with USPS (which is not federally funded but is under the same hiring rules), and I'm white. And, I'm the only female in the office, all the rest are white males. How'd that happen? I actually don't know anybody of any other ethnicity who works for USPS in the area, but I assume that's because of the demographics of this state (white. Very very white). Veterans also get extra points, but 3-5 extra points don't do much good if you don't score high anyway.

NO discrimination? A bold statement. The quotas were put in place because there was blatent discrimination, and they thought that was the best way to fix it, with the least amount of loopholes. I'm sure a better way could be found, but I don't know what it would be.



In the original article, I think it's funny how she implies that the U.S. is losing out to China because of racism in the U.S. Does she think they don't have racism in China? Well, maybe you can't call it racism because they are technically the same race, but they do treat their ethnic minorities badly and engage in enthusiastic discrimination. I think racism in the U.S pales in comparison. Although it is still pretty bad. There are a couple of my co-workers who I think would gladly kill people of other ethnicities if they thought they wouldn't be caught. Their attitudes are disgusting, and that kind of thinking is fairly common around here.

They didn't specify which part. If you would read the articles, you'd see that. You would have to ask the professional educators who know far more about the subject than either of us what makes the test biased, controversial, and falling rapidly out of favor. I'm happy taking their word for it. You may also want to ask the company that generates the test why economic factors create the perception of bias against minorities. After all, they made that concession.

edit to add: The only question is, is it really a perception, or is it reality. Of course the company is going to claim "perception" for purely marketing reasons, as they make $50 a pop for this thing.

But those that aren't acting on it are irrelevant, right? Not part of the issue. You just said so. Therefore, they need have nothing to do with it. Yes???

And it wasn't "asking". It was demanding, with the failure to do so being branded just as bad as, or worse, than terrorists.

Well, since the author tells a bald-faced lie (unless she's just being obtusely metaphorical) in the second paragraph of the article, she lost me there.

By the way, I fought the "economics/race" battle growing up. My mother was on welfare my entire childhood, and I always attended schools where that was a limiting factor. Nevertheless, my siblings and I always tested at the top of our class. What was the difference, in our case? We didn't have a TV at home. We were expected to be in early, to do our homwork, and to bring home good grades.

As a teacher, I saw it all the time: Involved parents and a stable home life are actually the factors that make for better students.

Racism isn't the big problem, although it exists and it is a problem. Such writers and thinkers (and celebrities) as Juan Williams (in his book, "Enough!") and Bill Cosby have made it clear that most of the racial separation today is being perpretrated by the minorities themselves, often on purpose, and always to their own detriment, and blaming the white (soon-to-be) minority is self-deluding and self-destructive.

830! That's how many colleges refuse to use SAT/ACT in admissions as of the beginning of this school year due to what they see as racial bias. That's quite a statement. It would seem that these tests aren't the cut and dried indicator that some groups are desperate to make them out to be.
http://fairtest.org/university/optional

Perfectly stated!

You can always find studies that support your views. Racism is an emotional topic, and it's easy to pick a side and find a study to defend it.

But I look at real life around me. The town where I live is about 35% minorities, yet my place of employment has only about 5% minorities working in the store. When I lived in Houston, my husband's company of roughly 1000 employees had exactly 12 minorities - all of them in janitorial or kitchen jobs. My company was slightly better at about 5% minorities, and they weren't all the lowest paying jobs.

The school where my mother taught was inner city 99.99% minorities. She had to purchase materials for her students out of her own pocket because the school district wouldn't fund them. My "white" school district paid for all supplies, including extra curricular activities. These districts were only a couple miles apart. Do you think there could be an education gap in this circumstance? You think?

Racism is thriving in this country. Minorities are being discriminated against. Denying it won't make it go away.