Possibly transitioning from low grain to grain-free dry...

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

Hey, everybody!

Crumb and Harvey have free feed access to their dry food. Despite my attempts to give Harvey separate kitten food, they really both eat the same thing... Authority Sensitive Solutions. When Crumb was a kitten, he had constipation so badly one night from Beneful cat food that he actually bled a bit from his backside. I quickly wanted to switch him over to something better, and the employee at Petsmart recommended this brand. (I later discovered it was the company generic... d'oh!) I knew little or nothing about "grain free" diets, but since becoming a rather ravenously obsessive catmom, obviously I see it come up time and time again. However, as a young actor living in NYC with her artist boyfriend, we don't have a lot of extra money. An 8 lbs. bag is about $12.99; I could go up a bit from that, but not lots! It really does have to be a financially viable option. Does anyone have any suggestions? The cats both love their food and don't seem to have any health effects, but Crumb does have a little pouch of fat on his tummy I fear is from the grains. I look at all the grain-free options, though, and my eyes start to glaze over...

Authority Sensitive Solutions Cat Food

Ingredients: Turkey, Turkey Meal, Brewers Rice, Oat Groats, Salmon Meal, Poultry Fat (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Natural Flavor, Rice Flour, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Fructooligosaccharides, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (not less than) 33.0%
Crude Fat (not less than) 12.0%
Crude Fat (not more than) 15.0%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 5.0%
Moisture (not more than) 10.0%
Ash (not more than) 6.5%
Linoleic Acid (not less than) 2.0%
Calcium (not less than) 0.95%
Phosphorus (not less than) 0.85%
Magnesium (not more than) 0.1%
Zinc (not less than) 225 mg/kg
Selenium (not less than) 0.2 mg/kg
Vitamin A (not less than) 25,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (not less than) 250 IU/kg
Taurine (not less than) 0.15%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (not less than) 2.8%*
Omega-6 Fatty Acids (not less than) 0.15%*
Carnitine (not less than) 100 mg/kg*

melesine · Aug 29, 2011

You could feed raw for cheaper than any of the grain free kibbles. All the grain free kibbles I've seen run in the range of 20 dollars for 5-6ish pound bags. I've bought Wellness Core for 22 dollars for a 6 pound bag and alternate that with Orijen which is even higher.

sweetpea24 · Aug 29, 2011

Orijen and Wellness are quite expensive. Not that those brands aren't't good. I think I have read on this forum that Taste of the Wild is a good deal. I don't know how much it costs though. I've also read here that Blue Wilderness is good too but again I don't know about the price.

I don't know if you would consider raw but if you do, please do a lot of research. There are people on this for um who could direct you to good resources. One is catinfo.org which is authored by Dr. Lisa Person. Also, Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins has a book out called "Your Cat..." (can't remember the rest of the title and I own the book- this is what happens at my age). She doesn't't go into detail about raw per se but she provides a lot of info about caring for your cat and the common diseases and conditions that afflict our feline friends.

Dr. Person also supports feeding of canned food if raw is not for you. Especially for male cats who are sometimes prone to urinary blockage (also known as Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease or FLUTD) due to a narrow urethra. This is an expensive condition to treat (I just assisted on a very difficult urinary catheter insertion last night on a cat who had already had this procedure done last week). Canned food (or raw) would provide the necessary moisture a cat needs. I realise canned is expensive but maybe feeding a.combination of wet and dry would feasible? Both the brands I mentioned before have canned foods.

Likely it is the crabs in the dry food that is plumbing up your cat. Maybe try putting the kibble on each step of the stairs or putting several dishes around the house (measuring the amount) so he has to move to get his food.

Please note that the 'natural flavor' in the authority food is likely MSG, a favouring considered to be carcinogenic, though I don't think this is proven. I do know it bothers my tummy.

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

I will look into the prices on Blue Wilderness and Taste of the Wild! thank you so much.

Raw feeding is really not an option for us... I read a bit about it, but working 60ish hours a week with 3 jobs during the school year, I barely have time to prepare food for ourselves. the DB works from home, but I don't trust him to always remember to feed the cats when he's on deadline! And while I am reading a lot about wet food, I've only had bad experiences with cats and wet food... it seems to make their bowel movements stinkier, they beg for it constantly, and all the cats I had growing up who had wet food were far more overweight than the cats we had later in my life who only ate dry. I feel as long as they have access to clean, filtered water sources and a high quality dry food, they should be fine. That's why I want to up the ante even further on their current food.

EDIT: And EW about the MSG... I don't want it in my food, much less theirs! Has anyone tried of Before Grain? It has berries in it... I don't know how I feel about that...

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

Also, been reading some people on here saying that grain-free is bad for male cats especially, due to the UTIs... and now I'm REALLY confused!

sweetpea24 · Aug 29, 2011

I think it's easy to feed too much canned and that's why the myth about canned food being bad or used as a treat came about. It is less nutrient dense so you have to feed more. Keep in mind, that it is 70% moisture at least while dry may be 10%. Cats won't drink enough water to compensate. Feeding a canned diet is lower in crabs and will help weight loss. It is more digestive. And yes your cats will beg for it as my cat does. There are much better canned foods out now than there were before. (I didn't know beneful came in a cat food!)

Please don't take this as judgement or pushing, just giving you information. Canned food does produce stinky poop though!

Totally understandable about raw. You have to feed what you are comfortable with and can afford.

As for Before Grain, I am not a big fan but that doesn't't mean it won't be good for your cats. I fed it to my first cat and after I bought a big bag, he got sick of it. (That's when I didn't know any better). I sometimes will get the canned as my one cat has kidney failure and is so picky so when I get desperate, I feed that. Not a.great food for kidney failure but my cat needs to eat!

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

I think it was Beneful... we were buying it in bulk from the wholesale club. Had the same pictures of vegetables and meats on the front -- and even a picture of corn! If only I knew then what I know now...

I like the Before Grain because it has a higher amount of protein, but not as high as some other brands... I'm a bit spooked by some people claiming that the dry grain-free gave their male cats UTIs.

Both cats are sitting on the bed watching me type -- I wish they'd just give me an opinion and be done with it!

kluchetta · Aug 29, 2011

Well, I free feed Taste of the Wild dry to 4 cats, 2 boys, and 2 girls, and I split one can of canned food, grain free, between them each day. (And have been doing this for 6 or 7 years)

My RB kitty, Tigger, was 14 when we got her, and she was ravenous ALL THE TIME. Grain free really seemed to calm that down. And they eat a lot less, and they eliminate a lot less as well. Because they are more efficient.

Oh, and I get my food at the local feed store.

I think it's a bit cheaper that way. But that doesn't really matter, I want to purchase from a business in my community.

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by kluchetta

Oh, and I get my food at the local feed store.

I think it's a bit cheaper that way. But that doesn't really matter, I want to purchase from a business in my community.

Are there local feed stores in Queens, NY?

My options are basically Petco and Petsmart... Petsmart is more convenient from work as I can get there by foot, but I can also drive to Petco in about 20 minutes. Neither seems to carry Taste of the Wild.

ducman69 · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by CrumbAndHarvey

Also, been reading some people on here saying that grain-free is bad for male cats especially, due to the UTIs... and now I'm REALLY confused!

It CAN be, but not necessarily so. The latest research indicates that mag/phos/ash content and urinary PH are some of the largest contributors to crystal formation.

Pure meat diets produce very acidic urine and can be naturally higher in those minerals, but if its all wet or all raw then all that extra water intake helps flush it out of the system to balance it out. If the cat isn't a big drinker or its an all dry grainfree diet with high magnesium and ash though, the thought is that it can contribute.

However, almost all manufacturers now aim for healthy urinary PH levels in their grain-free foods, and are keeping magnesium/ash in check by and large, to where this is less of a concern now.

Mine are doing excellent on Blue Wilderness Duck dry formula, and its one of the less extreme grain-free diets.

Originally Posted by Melesine

You could feed raw for cheaper than any of the grain free kibbles. All the grain free kibbles I've seen run in the range of 20 dollars for 5-6ish pound bags.

That certainly isn't true at my Kroger's prices. Grain free kibble is still fantastically cheap compared to alternatives. You have to factor in how tremendously calorie dense the dry food is. The one I feed is 3,683 kcal/kg....

So a cup of dry goes waaaay further than a cup of wet/raw, and there is very little waste to where pretty much every gram is consumed (no real spoilage concerns, residue sticking to can/plate, uneaten leftovers to be tossed, etc).

Comparing calorie for calorie for example, Blue Wilderness wet is 780% more expensive than Blue Wilderness Dry 11lbs. You can definitely feed raw cheaper than commercial wet food, but definitely not as cheap as dry, at least not if you buy the largest bags available at Petsmart (I noticed the smaller bags are often twice as expensive per pound). The food has a shelf life of years, even after being opened, so no reason not to get the big 10-15lb+ ones IMO.

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

I really like the Blue Wilderness Duck... but at $35 for an 11/lb bag, that's a big difference from my $13 for an 8/lb bag. I don't know that I can afford to fully double my feeding costs right now.

The Before Grain Chicken goes for $25 for an 11/lb bag... maybe once I get a steadier acting gig, I can upgrade to Blue Wilderness. But for now, it seems like a viable choice and something I could afford.

ducman69 · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by CrumbAndHarvey

The Before Grain Chicken goes for $25 for an 11/lb bag... maybe once I get a steadier acting gig, I can upgrade to Blue Wilderness. But for now, it seems like a viable choice and something I could afford.

Yeah, that is a big price difference and much greater than the extra 4% protein on Wilderness would affect feeding amounts, and Before Grain does look like quality ingredients:
Chicken Deboned, Chicken Meal, Potato Dehydrated, Turkey Meal, Chicken Fat, Sweet Potato Dehydrated, Dried Egg, Natural Flavor

Sounds like a good plan, and I'd definitely recommend it more often if they had em in any stores I frequent down here in Texas, for sure!

auntie crazy · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by CrumbAndHarvey

Also, been reading some people on here saying that grain-free is bad for male cats especially, due to the UTIs... and now I'm REALLY confused!

Yeah, all the seemingly contradictory information can get really crazy.

Kibble, by and large, promotes the growth and concentration of struvite crystals. Both because kibble-fed cats are chronically dehydrated - causing concentrated urine - and second because of the ingredients typical to most kibbles. Grain-free kibbles seem to be even worse, which is why folks go back to suggesting grainy kibbles, despite all that we know about why grains are bad for cats.

Dr. Pierson gives a nice rundown at how this works on CatInfo.org/UrinaryTractHealth and Dr. Hofve gives another perspective on her Kidney Disease in Older Cats article. Here's an excerpt:

Long-term feeding of an all-dry-food diet is also suspected as a factor in CRF. Catsâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji] kidneys are highly efficient and adapted to life in the desert, where they would get most or all of their water from eating their prey. Cats eating dry cat food take in only half the water that cats on a canned or homemade diet get; this chronic dehydration can cause stress on the kidneys over time. Dry diets also predispose cats to lower urinary tract disease (FLUTD, LUTD, FUS, crystals, stones, cystitis) because they force such a high degree of urine concentration. Chronic or recurrent bladder disease may also be a factor in the development of CRF.

The easy fix is just to switch over to a canned diet (raw is good, too, but not practical for many folks - as you mentioned - unless you purchase commercial raw).

Good luck finding a new food!

AC

kluchetta · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Yeah, all the seemingly contradictory information can get really crazy.

Kibble, by and large, promotes the growth and concentration of struvite crystals. Both because kibble-fed cats are chronically dehydrated - causing concentrated urine - and second because of the ingredients typical to most kibbles. Grain-free kibbles seem to be even worse, which is why folks go back to suggesting grainy kibbles, despite all that we know about why grains are bad for cats.

Dr. Pierson gives a nice rundown at how this works on CatInfo.org/UrinaryTractHealth and Dr. Hofve gives another perspective on her Kidney Disease in Older Cats article. Here's an excerpt:

Long-term feeding of an all-dry-food diet is also suspected as a factor in CRF. Catsâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji] kidneys are highly efficient and adapted to life in the desert, where they would get most or all of their water from eating their prey. Cats eating dry cat food take in only half the water that cats on a canned or homemade diet get; this chronic dehydration can cause stress on the kidneys over time. Dry diets also predispose cats to lower urinary tract disease (FLUTD, LUTD, FUS, crystals, stones, cystitis) because they force such a high degree of urine concentration. Chronic or recurrent bladder disease may also be a factor in the development of CRF.

Click to expand...

The easy fix is just to switch over to a canned diet (raw is good, too, but not practical for many folks - as you mentioned - unless you purchase commercial raw).

Good luck finding a new food!

AC

Ooooo...that's great info!

I was wondering why that would be. I should mention that I keep several different sources of water for my cats....I have a fountain and a big water bowl right next to each other. I've seen all of them drinking from either/both. Hydration is really important for many reasons.

sweetpea24 · Aug 29, 2011

Wow I didn't realize the price difference! Then go for the before grain. One suggestion, may e every three bags, sultry switching favours, like chicken for the first three months, then the turkey... remembering of course, to transition slowly. I don't know if they've changed the flavours as I have not seen it at any of the pet stores that I go to.

As for tastebof the wild, could you order it online?

You also may want to transition over two weeks as you are going from a with grain to a no grain. Sometimes switching too fast can cause digestive issues.

Oh yes I meant to tell you that since your kitten likes the older cat's food, make sure he gets more to support his growth. I don't remember (my age!) if you said how old he is but if he is younger than 8 months, feed him more and more often. I imagine the agent which you switch is different for different breeds but in general, 8 months is the cut off. Unless BG is all life stages...can't remember that either.

BTW three jobs, 60 hours a week, and school? How do you do it? I am tired just thinking about that! Kudos to you!

auntie crazy · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Wow I didn't realize the price difference! Then go for the before grain. One suggestion, may e every three bags, sultry switching favours, ...

SweetPea, I know you must mean "slowly switching flavors" but when I first read this, my mind instantly conjured an image of someone slinking suggestively over to the kibble cabinet and with a sly wink and saucy grin, switching one food out for another.

The image was only there for split second, but it still made me laugh... and I thought I'd share it.

AC

crumbandharvey · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Wow I didn't realize the price difference! Then go for the before grain. One suggestion, may e every three bags, sultry switching favours, like chicken for the first three months, then the turkey... remembering of course, to transition slowly. I don't know if they've changed the flavours as I have not seen it at any of the pet stores that I go to.

They have Chicken, Salmon, and Tuna... but fish is bad for them, right?

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

As for tastebof the wild, could you order it online?

Possible... if they don't like the Before Grain, I might give that a try. It also looks like there are specialty places in NYC that offer it... but who knows what the markup on that might be!

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

You also may want to transition over two weeks as you are going from a with grain to a no grain. Sometimes switching too fast can cause digestive issues.

DEFINITELY planning on doing a transition period. Going to buy my last small bag of their old food tomorrow at the Petsmart near work, and then Wednesday I will have time to drive over to Petco in Howard Beach to get the Before Grain.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Oh yes I meant to tell you that since your kitten likes the older cat's food, make sure he gets more to support his growth. I don't remember (my age!) if you said how old he is but if he is younger than 8 months, feed him more and more often. I imagine the agent which you switch is different for different breeds but in general, 8 months is the cut off. Unless BG is all life stages...can't remember that either.

Harvey is only 15 weeks... so still a baby! Would a vitamin supplement be a good idea? He's a long, skinny boy... and he's on antibiotics right now for an upper respiratory, so I just haven't been thinking much about it.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

BTW three jobs, 60 hours a week, and school? How do you do it? I am tired just thinking about that! Kudos to you!

While I did work 3 jobs during college, I actually work about 60-70 hours a week now total. During the school year, I perform an antibullying program in elementary schools. I do 4 shows a day, 2 shows at 2 different schools, 5 days a week! I have to leave very early to get there in time to set up and be ready for the kids all over the NYC/NJ/LI/Westchester area. I've only had 2 jobs for the summer, so I've been able to spend lots of time with my catchildren. I'm also the Assistant House Manager for NYU's 865-seat off-broadway theatre, so I'm there 3-5 nights a week, including weekends... and then I also babysit for a 2 year old little girl at least once a week. And she's about to have a new baby brother!

When I get home, it's all about my boys... both the furry 2 and the big bald DB!

minka · Aug 29, 2011

Since you only have two cats, I think the best choice for you would be to switch to canned. I just ordered from Petco online when they were having a sale and my cans turned out to only be 87cents each. And I buy premium wet! (Keep in mind that an adult average cat only needs one can per day.)

I understand if you are afraid of wet food because of past experiences, but let me assure you that people you hear those stories from did one of these things: free fed dry and thought wet was a treat (free feeding tends to lead to obesity), feed a low end brand like Friskies, or thought the cats dry could be changed just as quickly as the wet could and gave the cats upset tummies.

I have an FIV+ cat, and if he can eat an all wet diet without all ill effects (and in fact, loose weight and look better than ever!) your healthy cats will be fine.

sweetpea24 · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

SweetPea, I know you must mean "slowly switching flavors" but when I first read this, my mind instantly conjured an image of someone slinking suggestively over to the kibble cabinet and with a sly wink and saucy grin, switching one food out for another.

The image was only there for split second, but it still made me laugh... and I thought I'd share it.

AC

AC, that is hilarious! I hate this autocorrect feature but sometimes it helps. sultry favours,,, hmmm...sounds like a cat food!

sweetpea24 · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by CrumbAndHarvey

They have Chicken, Salmon, and Tuna... but fish is bad for them, right?

well that is what they say. Fish is high in magnesium which is thought to contribute to crystals. However, there are other things that contribute to the formation of crystals like phosphorus, salt, protein as well as lack of hydration and presence of infection. I think the moisture content is a bigger issue.COLOR]

Possible... if they don't like the Before Grain, I might give that a try. It also looks like there are specialty places in NYC that offer it... but who knows what the markup on that might be!

DEFINITELY planning on doing a transition period. Going to buy my last small bag of their old food tomorrow at the Petsmart near work, and then Wednesday I will have time to drive over to Petco in Howard Beach to get the Before Grain.

Harvey is only 15 weeks... so still a baby! Would a vitamin supplement be a good idea? He's a long, skinny boy... and he's on antibiotics right now for an upper respiratory, so I just haven't been thinking much about it.

Can you ask your vet for a Lysine supplement? It comes in a paste, pill or powder and is an amino acid which will help boost his immune system. No other vitamins are needed as the food will provide them. Are you keeping your cats separate to avoid transmission of your kitten's uri?

While I did work 3 jobs during college, I actually work about 60-70 hours a week now total. During the school year, I perform an antibullying program in elementary schools. I do 4 shows a day, 2 shows at 2 different schools, 5 days a week! I have to leave very early to get there in time to set up and be ready for the kids all over the NYC/NJ/LI/Westchester area. I've only had 2 jobs for the summer, so I've been able to spend lots of time with my catchildren. I'm also the Assistant House Manager for NYU's 865-seat off-broadway theatre, so I'm there 3-5 nights a week, including weekends... and then I also babysit for a 2 year old little girl at least once a week. And she's about to have a new baby brother!

When I get home, it's all about my boys... both the furry 2 and the big bald DB!

So you must be bored without a third job! Lol!

Possibly transitioning from low grain to grain-free dry...

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