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Ideas about breeding

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 
If any of you are brave enough to read this :P What do you think? Also any other suggestions/tips?

Costs of Bengals

Costs of purchasing my Queen (starting with 1): $2500
Costs of purchasing my stud : $2000 (also dependent upon if they get along, otherwise a trade is wise)
Food for them:
$20 per bag
For 2 adults, 2 bags a month would be fine.
$480 a year
Plus treats would be $8 a month
$96
For the kittens, let’s say:
It takes a little over 2 months for the mother to give birth
Breeding can be done 3 months after the last litter was born so long as the mother is healthy.
Average litter is about 2-8
Kittens wouldn’t eat hard food for at LEAST a month
SOOO, kitten food can cost:
$500 for 5 months if saying 8 kittens, as in 5 bags a month
Treats would be $15 a month
$75
I would keep the kittens for at least 5 months to make sure they are at a healthy age to be spayed/neutered
Shots/healthcare:
At my regular vet is $26 a month ($70 per kitten to start out)
So it would be $1640 for 8 kittens which would include spaying or neutering
$50 to microchip each kitten x 8 = $400
The screening for HD is done at least once in the cat’s breeding career at runs $200.
And today, DNA tests are becoming available for some genetic diseases. Those run $60 per test.

Necessities to buy just once:
Cages for the cats to keep them separate when not breeding: $400

Heating pad for kittens so they don’t get hypothermia: $40
Stuff to hand feed the kittens should they get sick and need to be kept separate: $100
Grooming equipment: $75
Bed big enough for mom and kittens: $50
Bed for daddy cat: $35
An accurate scale to weight the kittens: $50
The breeder must pay to register their cattery name with at least one cat association ($50 for CFA and $50 to TICA)
Registering Queen: $15
Would register for both
Things needed to do yearly:
Website to advertise kittens: $300 a year, designed by Hubby 
Registering cats/kittens/litters:
and must register each litter produced ($10 to each association). Let’s say 3 litters a year (likely less) $30 a year
In TICA, there are also membership dues to belong to a breed group. This cost is $35/year.
Phone calls to potential owners: $50 ((counting long distance))
$300 for HCM testing per year

Things maybe needed:
Emergency vet visit:
$30-$50
Possible C-section, minimum $300
For each litter: (let’s say 3)
FIV & FeLV ($30). $60 per kitten
prenatal veterinarian examination, $35.00.
In addition to the exam, we perform an ultrasound ($125)
and/or X-rays ($75)

One time costs: $5365
Money to pay for the mom and dad cat per year: $3016
Kitten costs for 5 month old kittens (saying 8 per litter since I like to think on the high end), 3 litters:
$8260
Which is only about $350 a kitten
Costs other than cats/kittens each year: $600
So if I sell the kittens for $750, my goal, that is only (hehe) $30 profit
If I sold them for $1000, that would be $280 profit.











Questionnaire to ask the potential owners:
What is your income/ what do you think owning a Bengal will cost?
Do you have children? (do you know if they have allergies?)
Do you have other pets? (what kind and do they get along with other animals?)
What made you want to adopt a Bengal?
If you cannot keep the Bengal, what are your plans for rehoming the Bengal? (My Bengals will not be on the street or in a shelter. Nor do I want it sold on craigslist. If anything, they can be returned to me for a small refund)
Have you ever owned any pets before?
What kind of living situation are you bringing your Bengal into? (house, apartment, ect)
Will you keep me updated on the cat? (should anything happen to it, should it get sick, ect, I would want to know and be kept updated)

















Twin Cities Bengals
CONTRACT
This agreement is between Brittney Engelhardt (Seller) of TCBengals and (Buyer). Effective as of the date of signatures below and is binding upon all parties thereof. Buyer and Seller agree to the below-described cat/kitten and all the following terms.
Color: Sex: DOB:
Sire:
Dam:
Sale Price:$ Deposit:$ 300.00 Balance:$
1.) It is the buyer’s responsibility to have this cat/kitten examined by a veterinarian within 72 hours after adoption. This is your health guarantee period. If this cat/kitten is found to have an untreatable or life threatening disease that is felt to have been contracted at the seller’s home (documentation required by a licensed Veterinarian). Seller will replace this cat/kitten of equal value at the Seller’s first opportunity.
2.) This cat is not guaranteed against cosmetic faults, i.e. tail fault or locket. A cosmetic fault does not preclude the cat from being bred as it is not a health issue.
3.) No breeder male or female from TCBengals may be sold, placed, leased, loaned, traded, co-owned or given away to another breeder, or person unless written permission is received by the seller, Brittney Engelhardt with her signature. The said cat/kitten cannot leave the Buyers possession until they are spayed or neutered.
4.) Buyer agrees that no stud service will be done with the male unless written permission is received by the seller, Brittney Engelhardt with her signature. Buyer may only breed to their own females, none from the same lineage!
5.) Buyer agrees to provide food, shelter, healthy and stimulating environment,
correct routine and accident related medical attention, exercise and affection. It is agreed that this cat will not be allowed outside without supervision.

Other Terms:
1.) A deposit fee is placed to hold a cat/kitten for a buyer. At this time I am holding the kitten for you and no one else can purchase the said cat/kitten. All holding fees (deposits) are non-refundable. The goal of our Cattery is to place our cat/kittens in loving homes once they have had enough human contact and have been well taken care of. This being said, most of our kittens are not placed until at least 5 months of age. This will still leave plenty of time for the kitten to bond to it’s new owner. If a cat/kitten is held for a Buyer, a change of mind can quite often jeopardize the chance of that particular kitten to be placed in a home while they are still of a desirable age. When the sale of the cat/kitten is consummated, the deposit shall be applied toward the balance owing on the purchase price. The balance is due prior to any shipping or pick up.
2.) Under no circumstances will this cat/kitten or any offspring be sold, leased or given away to any pet store, research laboratory or similar facility.
3.) This cat/kitten will be kept indoors and not be allowed to roam freely outside.
4.) These cats are sold as pets only! Any and all cats will be spayed/neutered before the buyer receives the cat UNLESS there is a breeding contract put in place beforehand. If looking to breed, please contact Brittney at TCBengals before purchase and she will discuss with you the implications thereof.
Advertising Rights:
Seller reserves the right to use photos of cat/kitten sold to Buyer in any or all advertising, including website advertising, in the promotion of TCBengals. Buyer agrees to allow seller the right to use cat/kitten’s photographs or name in future or existing advertising. Buyer must always use the cats full registered name in any advertising or on the Buyers website.
If Buyer or Seller commences any legal action as a result of this contract, Buyer agrees that the place of venue for such action shall be the state of Minnesota in Hennepin County. Any legal fees incurred in upholding this contract will be paid by the Buyer. This contract is legally binding to all parties named within and applies to only the buyer and the seller named below and is not transferable to other parties. If the buyer sells cat/kitten to a 3rd party, the health contract is Null and Void, however the spay/neuter agreement is still applicable.
By signing below shows you have read and agree with this contract.
Print Name:
Buyer Signature:
Address:
Phone #: Date:
E-Mail:
This is a full contract, all the conditions are in writing and signed by the buyer.
No other agreements implied or verbal would apply.
post #2 of 7
I kind of think that if you're looking at costs that closely, you may not be able to afford breeding. Babies have a way of costing more than you ever thought possible. I also think you're vastly underestimating the cost of an emergency vet visit ($75-$120 here, depending on what time of night it is, and that's just the office fee. More for the actual treatment) and a c-section (I'm not sure of the exact cost since my pets are spayed, but definitely NOT $300!).

And I certainly hope you aren't planning to breed your queen 3 times a year. That would kill her pretty quick. And even breeding back-to-back heats shouldn't be done much. There is a limit as to how much her body can handle. She'll need to be spayed for her own health after a certain number of litters.

And you shouldn't be thinking profit. No ethical breeder makes a profit (well, they might if everything magically goes right. Maybe once in their lifetime!). Breeding should only be done for the love of the breed and a desire to improve the breed. Otherwise you're just a kitten mill, pumping out more pet kittens into an already saturated market.

Breeding is a very expensive hobby. Not a money-making venture, if you do it ethically.

Do you have any show plans for the breeding cats? I'm pretty sure no decent breeder will sell you breeding-quality cats if you have no plans to prove them.
post #3 of 7
I have to agree with Willowy on how often to breed with one female. Some registries even have rules for that, FIFé for example: max 2 litters per year, but no more than 3 litters in two years. If you exceed this amount, the litters won't be registered and thus cannot be proven to be pedigreed purebred cats.
Even though my cattery is registered in TICA, I'm pretty much going with Fifé rules as TICA doesn't seem to have any even in important things like this...

And about queen and stud not getting along? The stud really won't be asking the queen if she likes him or not.. If problems occur in this field, it will most likely be the stud refusing to mate with a certain female (reasons could be anything from female having a pyometra to the male just not fancying her).

If you're going to keep the kittens until they are 5 months of age, be prepared to separate them from each other if they are opposite sexes.. They could breed when 4 months old. And the mom may get very annoyed/aggressive with them. In wild, cats 'kick out' their kittens when they are around 16 weeks old, this is to prevent inbreeding and the habit can sit tight on pet cats too (I've seen it happen more than once).

And caging?! I hope you were kidding with that one? (I live in different part of the world where you would be charged for animal cruelty if you would cage your cats, may not be the case in US though but the thought of it really upsets me! I would never buy a kitten from a cattery that cages it's cats). If you don't have enough room to keep the males and females separated in different sides/rooms of your house/apartment, I would suggest leasing males from other breeders. It would make things much easier at your house. Also all the stuff you mentioned in the stud costs would probably need to be tripled. A bed for example, he may mark his territory and that smell is very hard to get rid of. Cheaper to buy a new bed than use tons of cleaners on the old one.

You also forgot showing expenses (which are a lot), cat trees and kitty litter, or then I'm just too tired and missed those (it's 5.30 am here and I haven't gone to sleep yet..).

*edit* Oh, Important! Add the 'not to be declawed or else..!!' to the contract. If it was there already, I'm just blind.
post #4 of 7
Oh, yes, I forgot. Living with a full tomcat is usually veryvery difficult. Even if he never sprays (which is rare, especially in more active breeds like Bengals), his urine will smell very strongly and you may find you don't have many visitors . If using someone else's tom is possible, that would probably be a better option. Or building an outdoor cattery. I think most casual breeders aren't quite prepared for living with a tom!

In altering kittens before placement, I prefer to alter at 10-12 weeks and keep the kittens for 2 more weeks, to 12-14 weeks. I think keeping them for 5 months would be too long. You might get by with placing at 16 weeks. But longer than that and I'm not sure most buyers will tolerate it.
post #5 of 7
Cages to keep them apart when not breeding???

It is good you do have some emergency possibilities. But are you hinting you shall keep them in cages??
With only a few they shall of course be and live as your family members, with free run of the flat.

Cages to keep them in are only used by big breeders with lots of cats.


Another though:

1 queen, 1 stud... It sounds peculiar at least for me.

Producing exactly the same cat?? ie the same genetical combination? 5 perhaps 10 times with your ratio of twice a year? It may be OK for someone who is producing strictly pet quality. But for someone hoping to get good breeding quality - it is not good policy. They would be wirtually worthless for genetical purposes, with several identitical siblings.

Try of course to use different studs to get different aims.
Although, it may be wise to have own stud. Not to use it on the same female whole time, but to be part of the network of lending studs to each other.
(Lending studs, or sending females to resident stud)


Last: Litters Twice a year is a high ratio, although I think it is allowed by some organizations. You can do it a while, especielly if the litters are small.
The big european organization Fife allows thrice in two years.
Many European breeders take one a year. More only if small litters. It means of course also about 5 litters a queen, never much more.
post #6 of 7
I know for dogs, 3 seems to be the usual number of lifetime litters for a breeding bitch (of course dependent on her mothering skills and health). 4 is kind of pushing it, 5 is really pushing it. More than 5 and you're basically admitting to being a puppymill. I'm not sure how it works with cats. . .they do live longer than dogs. But there is a limit. Just breeding and breeding isn't healthy and would likely lead to an early death for the queen.

I found this info on a Bengal website. Seemed helpful, and she'll answer e-mails, too.
http://www.icehouse.net/illuzion/want_breedup.html

And you can request a mentor through TICA (click on "mentor program on the left):
http://www.tica.org/
post #7 of 7
A few comments:
1. I totally agree 3 litters a year for a queen is too much. Especially if she really did have 8 kittens per litter as you were estimating (which is very optimistic. that's at the high end of the usual range).
I don't know any breeder I would consider reputable who breeds 3 times a year. some breed a queen once a year some twice a year, but breeding her every 4 months is a way to run down her health, not giving her time to rebuild her strength and not allowing her uterus time to rest (not doing so could increase the risk of complications in birth).
Most breed clubs & some cat associations/ registries have guidelines for how often to breed; I don't know any that is more often than twice a year and some say 2 litters every 18 months.

2. With contracts, if you DO ever have to take legal action, it will be more enforceable if you include penalties in the contract.

3. I didn't notice anything about showing in your expenses. If you are breeding for the betterment of the breed and are proud of your breeding you will want to show and title your cats. and that is how you make contacts among the more serious Bengal breeders, so you can learn from them and to have a chance at being entrusted with an intact show/breeding quality cat from their lines.
I recommend starting with a show quality altered Bengal and spend a couple seasons (years) showing to learn the standard "like the back of your hand" --and learn how it is applied to individual cats and kittens..... and to make contacts ( & friends! ), and prove that you are serious and dedicated to the breed and interested in breeding for the right reasons, so that you can find a reputable, dedicated breeder to mentor you and either sell you breeding cat(s) or help you acquire them from another good breeder (s)he knows.

In the meantime while you are showing an alter, read about feline husbandry and genetics, join a breed club, participate in an online group etc

Here are some links etc. that may be helpful:
Before You Breed by Barbara C. French.

Here is an article that details the costs of breeding responsibly and explains the cost of pedigreed kittens from good breeders. It was originally written by a Siamese breeder and updated by a Maine Coon breeder; (actually some of the prices now seem on the low end esp for buying breeding cats -- that would be even more true for really high quality Bengals)
Cost of Breeding

"Determining a Breeder's Reputability" This is from a Bengal Cat breed club

"13 questions to ask a breeder"

UC Davis vet school has made available free online Dr Neils Pedersen's book on Feline Husbandry.

The Cat Breeders Handbook (this is a book to order)

Website of Dr Susan Little. The Notes from Lectures has some advice for breeding

CFA has various articles on breeding, cattery planning etc. Scroll down to Cat Care for Catteries

Bengal breeder's site with section of articles about breeding
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