Does anyone feed whole prey diet?

Willowy · Sep 1, 2011

I'm sure captive coyotes would find chasing live cats around to be fine enrichment too. I guess I feel you're just dismissing my opinion instead of actually addressing the issue. If you don't want to, fine, just say so, but I think it would make an interesting discussion.

Maybe you think mice aren't equal to cats. Maybe you think they don't feel pain or fear. Maybe you do think it would be fine for people to feed live cats to their large carnivores. Whatever you think, it would be interesting to hear it instead of just a vague dismissal.

cat person · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Willowy

I'm sure captive coyotes would find chasing live cats around to be fine enrichment too. I guess I feel you're just dismissing my opinion instead of actually addressing the issue. If you don't want to, fine, just say so, but I think it would make an interesting discussion.

Maybe you think mice aren't equal to cats. Maybe you think they don't feel pain or fear. Maybe you do think it would be fine for people to feed live cats to their large carnivores. Whatever you think, it would be interesting to hear it instead of just a vague dismissal.

Let me start out by saying I am NOT good at expressing myself via writing. I am a much better speaker then writer. So I am sorry you feel I am dismissing you

. That was not my intention at all

, hope you forgive me.

Okay well let me start off by saying I feel ANY ANIMAL raised in a humane fashion can be used as another animals food if the HUMAN WANTS TO DO SO. In other words if someone raised cats for example as food for there pet Coyote to eat that is fine. I could NEVER do that because I LOVE CATS. But as long as the cats where raised for such a purpose and not someones pet then I think that is fine.

It basically boils down to two points for me. The first is as you pointed out I do not think mice are "equal" to cats

. The second is in nature a cat would eat mice so I have no problem in this case "recreating" the natural food chain. But with the Coyote eating domestic cats I COULD NOT recreate that "natural food chain".

I hope that made sense and if you need an clarification please let me know

.

Willowy · Sep 1, 2011

I guess I'm not sure why an animal's suffering depends on what purpose the animal was bred for. A cat bred as coyote food, if fed to the coyote live, would suffer and be terrified just as much as a pet cat would. Unless you're saying that if a cat is bred to be food, it somehow suffers less? A former pet would suffer more? What's the difference between a pet mouse and a feeder mouse? Would you know the difference if the pet store gave you a mouse that used to be a pet?

If the animals are killed humanely before being fed, then I'm willing to concede to the food chain, no matter what species the animal is. But humans should not be deliberately torturing animals just to entertain their pets.

I'm pretty sure nobody would be able to "explain" live feeding in a way that would make me "understand". I'm just disappointed that anybody who evidently values their pets' lives would think that any other animal is not worthy of the same humane treatment.

cat person · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Willowy

I guess I'm not sure why an animal's suffering depends on what purpose the animal was bred for. A cat bred as coyote food, if fed to the coyote live, would suffer and be terrified just as much as a pet cat would. Unless you're saying that if a cat is bred to be food, it somehow suffers less? A former pet would suffer more? What's the difference between a pet mouse and a feeder mouse? Would you know the difference if the pet store gave you a mouse that used to be a pet?

I do not think a pet mouse or cat would suffer less then a feeder one. I just simply mean one that was breed for that purpose I feel is acceptable. Also you keep mentioning terror. But I feel if nature made prey animals with "terror" then it is natural for them to feel that. Hence not something I am going to worry about.

Originally Posted by Willowy

If the animals are killed humanely before being fed, then I'm willing to concede to the food chain, no matter what species the animal is. But humans should not be deliberately torturing animals just to entertain their pets.

I do not feel that it is torture to the prey animal. But like I said most people would. So I am in the minority.

Originally Posted by Willowy

I'm pretty sure nobody would be able to "explain" live feeding in a way that would make me "understand". I'm just disappointed that anybody who evidently values their pets' lives would think that any other animal is not worthy of the same humane treatment.

I am not trying to make you "understand" live feeding threw my poor explanation. I just simply feel some species of animals that would naturally be a prey animal can be raised as food for our pets. I just have a sharp distinction in my own brain for the most part between pet animal, breeder animal, and feeder animal. Only some exceptional individuals temperament would change the categories for me.

minka · Sep 1, 2011

I'm gunna jump in on this, cuz I have a few comments.

*I don't think feeding cats to coyotes is comparable to feeding mice to cats because domestic cats are mankinds doing, and without us coyotes wouldn't be eating cats, but cats have always been eating mice; I don't think coyotes eating cats is 'natural'.

* I think the point Cat Person was trying to make (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that cats breed to be feeders are different from cats breed to be pets because 'feeder cats' wouldn't belong to someone. If you are feeding a pet that most likely means you are doing it for your own cruel reasons, not because you want the predattor (whatever it is) to be happy.

*It's kinda backwards to say you get upset about preparing meat/feeding live/others feeding live, but you are perfectly okay with eating meat as long as you didn't have to see it. The animals you ate felt pain too. IMHO, you can't judge others for being 'cruel' when you yourself are causing pain and fear to animals yourself.

*I don't understand how mice aren't equal to cats. They both are intelligent animals and mice especially are very social creatures. They care for their young as well as each other.

Willowy · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

*It's kinda backwards to say you get upset about preparing meat/feeding live/others feeding live, but you are perfectly okay with eating meat as long as you didn't have to see it. The animals you ate felt pain too. IMHO, you can't judge others for being 'cruel' when you yourself are causing pain and fear to animals yourself.

I have no ethical problem (and I don't get upset) with humans eating meat (or animals being fed humanely-killed prey). I just can't prepare meats because I think raw meat is disgusting. Once it's cooked, I'm OK.

Ideally, an animal slaughtered for meat (or euthed for feeding other animals) should not be experiencing pain or fear. If done properly, the animal doesn't know what hit it. I know it doesn't always go as planned, but that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's the way it usually goes. Slaughterhouses go to great lengths to prevent the animals from getting scared, because when a 2000-pound cow is panicking (and then the other cows panic, too), it's a big problem. For this to be comparable, I'd have to go out and chase a steer around until he's totally freaked out, knock him around a few times, cut a steak out of his flank, then gut him and let him bleed to death.

Again, I am not against feeding whole prey. I am against feeding live prey. I know it happens in the wild, but in the wild, the prey animal has a sporting chance of escaping. I think cats have less than a 50% success rate in hunting. Meaning that more than half of the mice get away. And humans shouldn't be contributing to any animal's suffering if they can help it.

minka · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Willowy

I have no ethical problem (and I don't get upset) with humans eating meat (or animals being fed humanely-killed prey). I just can't prepare meats because I think raw meat is disgusting. Once it's cooked, I'm OK.

Ideally, an animal slaughtered for meat (or euthed for feeding other animals) should not be experiencing pain or fear. If done properly, the animal doesn't know what hit it. I know it doesn't always go as planned, but that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's the way it usually goes. Slaughterhouses go to great lengths to prevent the animals from getting scared, because when a 2000-pound cow is panicking (and then the other cows panic, too), it's a big problem. For this to be comparable, I'd have to go out and chase a steer around until he's totally freaked out, knock him around a few times, cut a steak out of his flank, then gut him and let him bleed to death.

Again, I am not against feeding whole prey. I am against feeding live prey. I know it happens in the wild, but in the wild, the prey animal has a sporting chance of escaping. I think cats have less than a 50% success rate in hunting. Meaning that more than half of the mice get away. And humans shouldn't be contributing to any animal's suffering if they can help it.

I'm not sure if I should get into the horrible conditions that food animals go through or not....

Willowy · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

I'm not sure if I should get into the horrible conditions that food animals go through or not....

I know. . .I live in a major beef production state. Actually, for most cattle life is not so bad. For poultry and most hogs it's pretty awful (hoop farming hogs is becoming more common. . .almost free-range. Not so awful as a hog confinement). But slaughtering is still usually not distressing, simply because it's dangerous to scare a cow or hog that is 5-10 times your weight.

cat person · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

I'm gunna jump in on this, cuz I have a few comments.

*I don't think feeding cats to coyotes is comparable to feeding mice to cats because domestic cats are mankinds doing, and without us coyotes wouldn't be eating cats, but cats have always been eating mice; I don't think coyotes eating cats is 'natural'.

* I think the point Cat Person was trying to make (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that cats breed to be feeders are different from cats breed to be pets because 'feeder cats' wouldn't belong to someone. If you are feeding a pet that most likely means you are doing it for your own cruel reasons, not because you want the predattor (whatever it is) to be happy.

*It's kinda backwards to say you get upset about preparing meat/feeding live/others feeding live, but you are perfectly okay with eating meat as long as you didn't have to see it. The animals you ate felt pain too. IMHO, you can't judge others for being 'cruel' when you yourself are causing pain and fear to animals yourself.

*I don't understand how mice aren't equal to cats. They both are intelligent animals and mice especially are very social creatures. They care for their young as well as each other.

:

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. The only difference between mice and cats really is this: I love cats and do NOT like mice. So if the mice are wild and the cat eats them or I buy feeder mice for my Savannah to eat I see NO problem with using them as a feed source.

Please no one get offended when I say this. But can we keep this thread to feeding whole/live prey to cats. Not on "people food" please.

anita1216 · Sep 2, 2011

I am a bit confused by what you are saying. So keep that in mind with this response. I know where I live it is NOT ILLEGAL to feed any animal another feeder animal. Like you can feed feeder mice to reptiles/amphibians, cats, fish or any other animal you choose.

Now if you mean it is cruel/immoral to feed live prey to another animal I can understand your point of view. But we will have to agree to disagree .

Its not illegal anywhere that I am aware of. Feeder animals have no protection under animal cruelty laws. I simply get in trouble because many places are not fond of my opinion or the groups I have been associated with (no not PETA!!!)
I simply do not agree with throwing live animals into enclosures as "food". In the wild the chance of escape is more realistic and happens more often than not. Artificially engineered hunting is not natural, but thats always a point to disagree upon and I have no issue with that.

People being obtuse about putting feeders back in cages when they are not eaten annoys me. Those I have dealt with have come from herp owners that think its ok to starve feeders or cram them into tiny glass bowls and tanks. Your animals food is only as good as the time and care you put into it.

Had my cats been interested in F/T feeders I would use them. They turned their noses up at it. Im just not ever going to be ok with people feeding animals live to anything.

cat person · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by anita1216

Its not illegal anywhere that I am aware of. Feeder animals have no protection under animal cruelty laws. I simply get in trouble because many places are not fond of my opinion or the groups I have been associated with (no not PETA!!!)
I simply do not agree with throwing live animals into enclosures as "food". In the wild the chance of escape is more realistic and happens more often than not. Artificially engineered hunting is not natural, but thats always a point to disagree upon and I have no issue with that.

Okay I understand/see your point of view.

Originally Posted by anita1216

People being obtuse about putting feeders back in cages when they are not eaten annoys me. Those I have dealt with have come from herp owners that think its ok to starve feeders or cram them into tiny glass bowls and tanks. Your animals food is only as good as the time and care you put into it.

I agree with you a 100% on that part.

Originally Posted by anita1216

Had my cats been interested in F/T feeders I would use them. They turned their noses up at it. Im just not ever going to be ok with people feeding animals live to anything.

I see/understand your point of view on that "issue".

ldg · Sep 2, 2011

I totally understand the concept of feeding whole prey to a carnivorous predator. I do not, however, understand the need to feed live prey. Environmental enrichment can be satisfied with appropriate play. You want kitty to "win" his "kill?" Put food under a handkerchief and make the last mouse or feather or rabbit tail on da Bird or whatever land on that.

cat person · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by LDG

I totally understand the concept of feeding whole prey to a carnivorous predator. I do not, however, understand the need to feed live prey. Environmental enrichment can be satisfied with appropriate play. You want kitty to "win" his "kill?" Put food under a handkerchief and make the last mouse or feather or rabbit tail on da Bird or whatever land on that.

I can only say this, my F3 Savannah is not like a normal cat. If you hid food under a handkerchief he would EAT IT

. He will eat napkins, paper, plastic, shoe laces etc. This is COMMON with wildcats and wild cat hybrids. As he has grown (he is a little over a year old) he is having less pica issues. But since the addition of whole live prey he has STOPPED having pica issues. He is also less destructive (breaking house hold items, tearing up paper and plastic) in my home.

So I feel in my case the environmental enrichment is well worth it. Also my Savannah has destroyed three de Birds.

Yes the cat has dog toys before you ask

.

Willowy · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by anita1216

Its not illegal anywhere that I am aware of.

From what I can find by lurking around reptile forums, it IS illegal in the UK and Australia (and maybe some places in Europe. . .it's kind of unclear) to feed live vertebrates to reptiles, unless your reptile is starving and the vet tells you to try live prey (and even then it sounds like you could still get in trouble, but they generally overlook it). Presumably feeding live vertebrates to other kinds of animals is also illegal there.

rafm · Sep 2, 2011

I find it rather interesting when individuals claim laziness or lack of knowledge or not caring enough about their pets to feed raw or whole prey. I often ask these people if they only feed their children fruits, vegetables and humanely raised organic meats? If they have never taken their child to McDonald's? If their child never eats processed food? If they answer that they only feed their child foods that are good for them and never feed convience food, then I tip my hat to them.....however, I've yet to find that person.

I have healthy pets. They suffer from the normal effects of aging but their coats are beautiful, they are happy and eat the very best food i can afford. I have never once felt bad for not doing raw/prey.

Add me to the bench of those that think feeding live prey is unnecessary. I saw a video of a dog being put in a cage with a MASSIVE snake for his dinner. It was an awful video.....and whether that live prey is a mouse, cat, dog or whatever, there is no way i could watch that or know it was happening in my home. If the animals are out, wild and having to hunt for food, that's one thing, completely another if they are domesticated and living indoors.

minka · Sep 5, 2011

Originally Posted by RAFM

I find it rather interesting when individuals claim laziness or lack of knowledge or not caring enough about their pets to feed raw or whole prey. I often ask these people if they only feed their children fruits, vegetables and humanely raised organic meats? If they have never taken their child to McDonald's? If their child never eats processed food? If they answer that they only feed their child foods that are good for them and never feed convience food, then I tip my hat to them.....however, I've yet to find that person.

I have healthy pets. They suffer from the normal effects of aging but their coats are beautiful, they are happy and eat the very best food i can afford. I have never once felt bad for not doing raw/prey.

Add me to the bench of those that think feeding live prey is unnecessary. I saw a video of a dog being put in a cage with a MASSIVE snake for his dinner. It was an awful video.....and whether that live prey is a mouse, cat, dog or whatever, there is no way i could watch that or know it was happening in my home. If the animals are out, wild and having to hunt for food, that's one thing, completely another if they are domesticated and living indoors.

Um, no one said that if you feed a whole prey diet that you can't feed anything else.. Your point is kind of moot and random.

Also, no one is asking you to feel bad for not feeding raw.

cat person · Sep 5, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

Um, no one said that if you feed a whole prey diet that you can't feed anything else.. Your point is kind of moot and random.

Also, no one is asking you to feel bad for not feeding raw.

Good work again

. I feed my F3 Savannah a live mouse, Evo dry food and Taste Of the The Wild dry mixed together daily.

cdbaird11 · Nov 5, 2011

I just wanted to add that my 2 kitties, ages 4 mo. and 7 mo. just love their frozen/thawed mice. I found this conversation on the forum because I was searching the raw feeding section to see if anyone had an idea of how many feeder mice to give per week. I've been giving them one each on Sunday. Started first with a pinkie but last tried a fuzzy. The 4 mo. old plays with it for about 20 minutes in the bathtub and then eats it...the 7 mo. just eats it with no party before hand. They both love their mice feeder treats. I love the fact that they're getting all that good nutrition. Anyone else having such good luck?

ritz · Nov 6, 2011

This opinion is from a neophyte when it comes to feeding raw feeding.

I chose to go raw about six weeks ago because I was tired of feeding Ritz low quality canned seafood flavored food (the only flavor she would eat) and her always being hungry. In desperation I started feeding her commercial raw. She loved it from the first bite (we're still working on amounts and hunger issues).

Then I ventured into frankenprey. I got over my squeamishness when handling jello-like raw liver and kidney because of how much I saw Ritz liked eating it and how much energy she had. I liked (well kind of) hearing Ritz crunching bones, chewing meat/poultry like she was meant to do. I've also given her a few crickets to play with and eat. I am now back on feeding commercial raw until I understand the ratios better (80/10/5/5).

But whole prey, my own personal comfort level isn't there yet. Although I like, really like, the fact that I wouldn't have to guess at the proportions for whole prey, so that possibility is still in the back of my mind. I've thought about buying some frozen pinkies and small mice. Thinking about it still.

As for the reason whole prey hasn't caught on: like a lot of the other posters said, comfort level and cuteness factor. What that individual level is, isn't a bad/good thing, it just is. Today, canned wet food (yesterday, dry kibble); tomorrow, commercial raw. Or, always canned wet food.

cat person · Nov 6, 2011

Ritz said:
This opinion is from a neophyte when it comes to feeding raw feeding.

I chose to go raw about six weeks ago because I was tired of feeding Ritz low quality canned seafood flavored food (the only flavor she would eat) and her always being hungry. In desperation I started feeding her commercial raw. She loved it from the first bite (we're still working on amounts and hunger issues).

Then I ventured into frankenprey. I got over my squeamishness when handling jello-like raw liver and kidney because of how much I saw Ritz liked eating it and how much energy she had. I liked (well kind of) hearing Ritz crunching bones, chewing meat/poultry like she was meant to do. I've also given her a few crickets to play with and eat. I am now back on feeding commercial raw until I understand the ratios better (80/10/5/5).

But whole prey, my own personal comfort level isn't there yet. Although I like, really like, the fact that I wouldn't have to guess at the proportions for whole prey, so that possibility is still in the back of my mind. I've thought about buying some frozen pinkies and small mice. Thinking about it still.

As for the reason whole prey hasn't caught on: like a lot of the other posters said, comfort level and cuteness factor. What that individual level is, isn't a bad/good thing, it just is. Today, canned wet food (yesterday, dry kibble); tomorrow, commercial raw. Or, always canned wet food.

Well said Ritz

.

I just want to ask, what do you mean by portions of whole prey? Like how many mice, rats, quail and so on to feed daily?

Does anyone feed whole prey diet?

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