Best diet for cats?

To make it simple the best diet for cats is raw. The more accomidating one is wet. And the more affordable one is a wet/dry mix.*

It's great that you want to improve your cats diet. You have certianly come to the right place.

While it may seem a great idea to buy a chicken, chop it up and feed it to them, the only problem is that unless you are also feeding uncooked organs and bones, and/or adding supplements, the diet would not be complete.

If you were going to make your own 'canned' food per say, you would still need to add organs and mineral supplements, no rice or veggies needed however.

You are almost right in that Friskies is full of drugs because they use artificial and natural flavors to make it irrisistable to cats. It's like handing McDonalds french fries to a child.


* People say dry is cheaper than wet, but since wet is so much more nutrituous, you don't have to feed as much, and as long as you know how to shop sales, you can feed a cat on less than a dollar a day. My cat only costs 87 cents or less and he's 16lbs.
I've found I'm spending less on wet than dry. (Well, more like I Could spend less, but I spoil my boy instead. >:3)

"When fed as a supplement to most commercial canned foods, it is safe to feed ~15% of the daily calories in the form of plain meat. For example, if a cat is eating 6 ounces of canned food per day, you could feed him 5 ounces of canned food plus 1 ounce of chunked muscle meat per day." - Dr. Pierson at catinfo.org

Some grocery stores chop up the meat in the back themselves, so you can talk to the meat department about saving those organs for you. Or if you go to a local butcher, they would definitely have organs. Also if you go to an asian or some other foreign market, sometimes they will have them.
Raw is best and no you do not have to worry about salmonella because cats are designed to eat raw meat and their digestive systems can handle bacteria better than humans can. And actually most cases of salmonella poisoning in cats comes from being fed kibble.

Cooked bones are the ones that splinter and hurt the cats. Raw bones are the only kind safe to feed.

Rice and veggies are added to cat food for several reasons:
Cat food originally was dog food with a picture of a cat on the front and other than now adding taurine, some companies have not changed their recipes.
Marketing - people know fruits and veggies are healthy for them, so they presume the same applies to their cats.
Longer shelf life/fillers to keep the food from spoiling as kibble made 100% from meat would go bad quickly.

Most people prepare at least a week in advance; chop and grind up everything, put it in baggies and freeze it until it's meal time.

Auntie Crazy will probably show up any time soon, but if not, shoot her a message. She is very knowledgeable with raw and could answer any question you've got.

Hi, Kaikrishna!

Good on you for researching feline nutrition for your cats, and especially for being so open-minded as you read. In my experience, it's unusual to see someone accept raw so quickly as even a potential food, never mind as the most species-appropriate diet!

If you can, you would do better by your kitties to throw away the kibble completely. A canned diet (even a Friskies one), supplemented with up to 15% raw meat chunks would be a good bit healthier.

Organs: Unless you intend for your cats' diet to include more than 15% raw, you don't need to worry about feeding either organs or bone-in meals. If, however, the raw portion of the diet exceeds 15% and you do need to start offering them, the best place to begin looking is your local grocery store. Asian markets are a good place for organs, too.

Salmonella: Cats evolved to handle bacterial loads far in excess of anything we could handle. In addition, they have extremely short, incredibly efficient digestive tracts that excel at processing the bodies of their prey thoroughly and quickly. Salmonella in raw meat is far more of a danger to you than it could possibly be to them (so always use good meat-handling practices ).

Bone-in Meals: Raw bones are very soft and flexible and your cat isn't going to choke on them. If you begin feeding bone-in meals, start with small bones, like the ribs and wings from a Cornish Hen or half a quail. Cats fed commercial all their lives have to learn how to use their jaws and teeth to actually scissors through meat and bones, and they have to build up their jaw strength to be able to do so. Always leave a bit of meat on the ribs; the wings can be fed just as they are. Once your kitty is familiar and comfortable with those, you can move up to chicken ribs and wings. etc.

Fillers: Grains, fruits and vegetables added to commercial products are not only not needed from a nutritional perspective, but cats lack the ability to fully or easily process them and it stresses their bodies to have to do so (often leading to IBD, diarrhea, and more). From the reading I've done, it's pretty clear the two biggest reasons they're in cat food is profitability and marketability.

Preparation: You can absolutely prepare meals in advance. I have six cats and nearly all their meals are prepped and frozen in advance, athough, really, there's not a lot of up-front work in a Frankenprey diet like mine. Turkey drumsticks and chicken quarters are just bagged as is, pork and beef are cut in big chunks, weighed and bagged, and hearts, gizzards, liver and kidney are just weighed and bagged. Chicken wings and chicken ribs, I do have to bring out the shears and cut them before bagging, which is messy but not that time-consuming.

TCS has a raw food forum and here are a couple of threads you might find helpful:

Natural Diet Information Resources

What does your menu look like? You might also enjoy reading some of the articles on Feline-Nutrition.org, CatInfo.org and RawFedCats.org.

AC

Yo, Minka! Thanks for the shout-out!

The above statement is partly correct. There is more to it than that when it comes to the potential dangers of raw feeding, and I think that if you are going to go down this path, you need to be fully informed so as to be aware of any nasty surprises that may pop up and to be prepared and not complacent in thinking it's tottally safe.

Salmonella, E-Coli, Toxoplasmosis. They can be found in raw/fresh meat and they can all be potentially deadly to your Cat. I'm not against raw feeding, but be very careful if you do. Always take precautions and proceed with caution.

Cats may have evolved to be better at handling bacteria better than us, but they also evolved to eat fresh meat from their kills in the wild which would limit their exposure to high quanties of bacteria. It's part of the reason that cats tend to be picky about what they eat.

Human meat tends to be meat that is long dead and could have been cross contaminated or exposed to high heats which increases the liklihood of the meat having high quantities of the 3 types of Bacteria stated above. So, in saying that, because of the process that human meat goes through before it comes to us, it can pose a risk to your feline companion.

I don't agree with this.

Fresh meat from the wild, if anything, would be more prone to bacteria. Small birds like pigeons carry so many diseases it's not even funny. Rats and mice are also well-known for carrying diseases. But cats manage. Like Auntie said, their digestive tracts are short and their stomach acids strong, so you really do not have to worry about them catching anything.

In a nutshell, your cats would quite literally die, most likely of heart failure. There is a reason that the AAFCO helps the FDA by researching and creating minimum nutrient profiles for cats with specific macro and micro nutrients.

Raw feeding can certainly be a healthy diet, but it is a bit controversial and can be potentially dangerous for both yourself and your cats. As with any dietary choice, there are pros and cons, so I'd recommend reading some facts about raw.
Yes, they should be fed raw, and yes there are certainly salmonella concerns.
Cooked bones should never be fed, as they will splinter more easily and can cause damage. Choking risks are realistic even with uncooked bones, and not all bones are created equal in this regard and poultry bones are hollow and some splinter more easily so it is advised to stick with smaller flexible bones.
Yes, these are typically fillers as its much less expensive than meat, but cats can digest and obtain nutrients from them and they can be used to achieve a target urine PH for a recipe, since meat promotes urine acidity and vegetable matter alkaline. The latest research indicates that proper urine acidity is the most effective means of maintaining urinary health.

This is false. A fresh kill, unless it was already on the verge of death, would have a very low bacterial load... that's what a creatures immune system is for and it would be quite ill with even quite low bacteria levels. A wild kill would be more likely to have parasites though. Once an animal is dead, it will begin to decay and bacteria will grow. This is common sense, as you can safely eat fresh fish as sushi, but typical grocery store fish which is not as fresh needs to be cooked before eating.

Salmonella poisoning is a matter of degree of exposure. Many cats have died from commercial food contaminated with large quantities of salmonella for example. Lower quantities often cause subclinical infections, where the cats appear outwardly healthy, but still shed the bacteria and is thus diagnosed by culturing their feces. Per the government, the percentage of salmonella in chickens has been as high as 20% in the 90s, which is why it is so important to thoroughly cook the meat before human consumption and properly clean any surfaces touched by raw meat.

So it is not doom and gloom, but just be aware of the risks and proper handling procedures.

I would be interested to know the source of your belief.

Thank you.

AC

You'll never find verified statistics for animal deaths, even in the huge China scare that most agree killed thousands of pets, as there is no government database for pet sickness/death tolls. Salmonella scare recalls in pet food are a google search away, with forums where owners are convinced that it was the recalled food that caused severe illness or death in their pets. Considering that you can only sue for the replacement value of an animal (at least in the US), you really don't see detailed autopsies and mass lawsuits.

Per the FDA:
But that just goes to point out that even if you purchase commercial food, you're not 100% safe from salmonella contamination.

However, at least the food is typically recalled quickly, sometimes before it hits the shelves. Just in case, I usually keep food for several months before feeding it, since sealed dry and wet have shelf lives of years.

Then your previous statement is precisely the inflammatory and false statement I thought it was.

Ducman, I will not be responding to anything else you post in this thread. Kaikrishna deserves to have his query answered without having his post turned into yet another debate.

AC

I think all your cats are indoor/outdoor cats correct? If not please forgive my ditzy confusion. I am going to assume that I am remembering correctly and give you the following information as if they are indoor/outdoor cats.

I would say that a mixed diet of commercial wet and commercial dry would be the best. The reason is it has the water SOME cats need and the "excessive" calories in dry food that an outside cat can also use.

Plus being indoor/outdoor cats they can do there own hunting. Just like two of my four cats do. So they get a "balanced" diet.

Lastly if you want to know what I think the best diet really is I would say a whole prey diet. That would mean feeding your cats frozen thawed mice, rats, and chicks. This would be very beneficial to your Bengals and Savannah crosses.

PS a photo update of your cats if you have time ?

This is the kind of blatant misinformation spread in the demonetization of raw by wet/kibble feeding crusaders that virtually refer to it as poison. I would like to see logic, cold hard facts, and supporting studies to justify such false myths.

Do those words sound familiar Ducman2? They should:

If you have any questions at all, please feel free to post them. Or, if you like, you can contact me directly. I'm happy to help!

AC

WOW! I have said that raw is "perfectly healthy" (that's some demonization, hah), and the salmonella recalls were from commercial DRY food, so I was pointing out that there are salmonella risks either way. But the idea that all salmonella pet food recalls are stupid because there are no risks to humans or cats is dangerous in my and the FDA's opinion as quoted, and pretty silly to think that millions of dollars of food would be thrown away pointlessly by the industry if it weren't a problem.

I apologize for some of these reactions kaikrishna, there is no 'perfect' or one 'right' food choice, and they all have their pros and cons, but just pointing out that if you are going to create your own diet you can make mistakes so be sure to research thoroughly so you do not omit required nutrients (the cooked chicken meal plan for example would have been very deficient, including in basic taurine).

You presented the salmonella scare as an agrument against *raw feeding*. Your hypocracy is obvious whether you are willing to admit it or not. Even if what you now say the intent of your statement was is true, how do you expalin that you don't habitually warn people against feeding commercial food because of the salmonella risk and yet bring it up when the issue is raw feeding? Still hyprocracy.

The fact is you made an inflamatory statement that you are unable to back up with fact. Exactly the thing you have "schooled" others on in other threads.

Lets agree to disagree and not ruin kaikrishna's thread with bickering and angry accusations. To answer your question, the numerous salmonella contamination recalls are my fact, and the difference was already explained in that "at least the food is typically recalled quickly, sometimes before it hits the shelves. Just in case, I usually keep food for several months before feeding it, since sealed dry and wet have shelf lives of years." And again, as mentioned w/ salmonella poisoning, "is a matter of degree of exposure", and small amounts would only be a concern for immune compromised/elderly cats and humans.

The statement you made was:

A "factoid" it is now clear that you simply made up.

The lesson kaikrishna should learn here is to be wary of false experts!

How many cats died from the Chinese pet food contamination a few years back mschauer? If you can't produce factual government or industry statistics, which you cannot as they are not kept as pointed out, then clearly you are lying if you say many cats became very ill and were put down because of it. A google search and listening to the stories of pet owners would prove otherwise though, even if exact numbers are not known. At the very least the fact remains of the emergency recall and the dangers expressed by the FDA warning the public, just as they have done in the emergency salmonella recalls. How DO you explain why these recalls exist and why so much food is thrown away when salmonella is found, and why do you think the FDA is lying when they warn of the dangers to people and pets exposed?

I did not mean to insult the sensibilities of passionate raw-food advocates in expressing a balanced viewpoint:

You know, everybody makes mistakes when they post. They say things they believe to be true sometimes without even realizing that they have no reason to believe it.

The difference with you is that you #1 won't admit when you make a mistake and #2 you habitually ridicule and taunt others when they make a mistake. If it weren't for #2 I'd be willing to overlook #1.

To answer the original posters question. The best diet for your cat, if you are willing and able to do it, is a whole prey all raw diet. There are many places where you can order whole prey online, if you desire to go this route. You can get rabbit, mice, rats, chics etc. I do not feed a raw diet to my domestics, but they do get it as a treat. My wildcats get nothing but an all raw meat diet. I do at times, give them whole prey and they will even get their own, when an animal that is small enough, manages to get into their enclosure or some larger animal happens to get to close to the enlcosure and well, I won't go into details. My wildcats get all raw meat with bone, that is supplemented with a vitamin made for wildcats. This same supplement can be given to domestic cats as well. Feeding a raw meat diet, you will find that your cats will have very few, if any, dental issues as well as very minor issues with hair balls. In fact, rarely do I ever have an issue with hair balls with my wildcats If you feed whole prey, there is nothing else you need to do. No vitamin supplements would be required, since it is whole prey.

IMO, there are risks and benefits to ANY diet. Salmonella happens to be a real risk whether feeding dry, wet, or raw. When feeding raw you can reduce the risk by purchasing – as John points out – whole prey. But the processing of even raw meat and organs, whether organic grass fed or steroid and grain fed, and whether ultimately sold at a health food store or in a supermarket, presents a risk, just as commercially prepared dry or wet foods do.

I also believe that to say

is completely irresponsible.

The fact of the matter is that cats are susceptible to enteric bacterial and parasitic infection. Cats can be carriers, presenting zoonotic risk, and/or can become ill - ranging from mildly ill to dying - from many types of enteric infection.

According to the University of Wisconsin Veterinary Medical School, cats are more often “subclinical carriers” of salmonella, but they definitely can become ill from it. Further, salmonella can be isolated from cats at rates of up to 18%. Hardly “no worry.” http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoono...almonella.html

I did find reference to cats being considered to have a high immunity to Salmonella infection “under normal circumstances.” It was in an MS Thesis written in 2003, “Prevalence of Salmonella sp. in domestic cats in an animal shelter and the comparison of culture and polymerase chain reaction techniques as diagnostic tools,” by Melinda Lee. http://txspace.di.tamu.edu/bitstream...ence=1mjkkkkkk The citations were both Timoney. 1976, “Feline Salmonellosis,” Vet. Clinics of N. Am. 6:395:398, and Timoney et al. 1978, “Feline Salmonellosis – A nosocomial outbreak and experimental studies,” Cornell Vet. 68:211-219.

I found no scientific literature supporting the claim that the stomach enzymes and short intestinal tracts of dogs and cats enable them to bear a bacterial load that would be harmful to humans. Or that the stomach enzymes and short intestinal tracts of dogs and cats helps prevent bacterial infection. It is found in a lot of discussions of raw proponents, but I haven’t found anything to support the claim yet.

I did find that 16.3% of all chickens in the U.S. were found to be contaminated with Salmonella in 2006: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/08/dining/08well.html

As to whether a raw diet is better than a commercially prepared diet (of course, there are now commercially prepared raw diets available), there are few actual studies on the subject. The one I found was conducted by School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of California, Davis in May 2002. They compared a diet of whole prey (rabbit) to “a premium brand of commercial cat food that had been tested for its ability to sustain normal growth in normal kittens.” The purpose of the study was to investigate food/nutrition in the role of inflammatory bowel disease. The study found, “although it appeared that the raw rabbit diet was significantly beneficial for the stool quality and appearance of health [edited by me to add - appearance of health meaning coat quality] in the cats, the sudden and rapidly fatal illness of one of the cats that were fed the raw rabbit diet for 10 months was chilling and unexpected. The affected cat was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy due to a severe taurine deficiency. Moreover, 70% of the remaining raw rabbit diet fed cts, which appeared outwardly healthy, also had heart muscle changes compatible with taurine deficiency and could have developed heart failure if continued on our raw rabbit diet. For the remaining three months of the study, the raw rabbit diet was supplemented with taurine and taurine levels returned to normal.” So taurine supplementation, at a minimum, is a good idea when feeding a raw diet.

The conclusion of the study?

Bold, my emphasis.

Here is a link to the study: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/l...th_Glasgow.pdf

The bottom line is that it’s not just about dry, wet, or raw… just as the discussion about WHAT dry or wet is “best,” within raw foods that discussion exists.

What the animal of what is going to become your cat’s food was fed makes a difference. In the wild, cats eat rabbits that were grazing on greens, not fed grains or pellets or something. So eating pellet-fed rabbit, your cat may fall short on necessary omegas. Same with grain fed beef. But of course, in the wild, cats don't hunt cows or sheep or deer, and don't eat beef, lamb, or venison. Or if you grind your food, your cat may become taurine deficient, because the taurine is destroyed by oxidation so quickly.

Raw may well be superior to commercially prepared dry or canned foods. I don’t know, I haven’t fed my cats raw. I did see their overall energy and appearance improve when I switched them to an all wet diet. Perhaps the same thing would happen if I switched them to raw. I live in an RV and have 8 cats, so the lack of freezer space itself makes this an impractical diet even if I wanted to try it. But I’ve not seen actual research that indicates that over the life of a cat, they’re actually healthier on a raw diet than on a commercially prepared wet or dry diet.

Common sense dictates that as humans are healthier the less processed the food they eat is, the same would likely be true for our animals. The fewer colorings, preservatives, and unnecessary additives, the likely higher quality of life in one's later years.

I think it's great that you wanted to put so much effort into your response, but it is already well known that if a rabbit only raw diet is fed, there will be taurine deficiencies. Therefor, I do not think this study is qualified to show whether raw has more redeeming qualities than a commercial diet. If a study has been done showing a complete raw diet vs commercial, then that would be great to bring up.

Minka, as I understood the study, the warning was that "raw is not raw" anymore than "dry is dry" or "wet is wet". Airplanes are generally faster, but a Japanese bullet train sure as heck will get to its destination quicker than our Fairchild 24, heh! A poor quality or improperly balanced or prepared raw diet, can be not only unhealthy, but in fact fatal. Unlike commercial diets that have to meet AAFCO nutrition guidelines to be considered "complete" in both macro and micro-nutrients for growth and maintenance life stages respectively, self-prepared raw requires the preparer to be well educated in feline nutrition and safe food handling practices, which is important for people to be aware of. Hopefully we'll see more commercial raw food hit mainstream.
Very well said, an often overlooked fact where many get so hung up on type X, Y, and Z food that they forget that really each type should have a sub a,b,c,d,f grade as well for quality, to where even if you prefer Y over X, an Xa diet can be far more healthy than a poor quality Yf one... ew, that sounds like math now!

Minka, I completely fail to understand your point.

The question was what diet is best for cats. The OP is apparently new to the discussion of cat nutrition and requirements. It is important in any discussion of such things to note that a raw or home-created diet of some kind runs the risk of taurine deficiency.

The study merely illustrates that with a raw diet there is a risk of taurine deficiency. If you want to attribute that to the fact that they were feeding just one source of protein, fine. But it doesn't diminish the fact that there are nutritional considerations that need to be taken into account when feeding raw, and one of the most important is taurine. ESPECIALLY as there may be absolutely no indication there's a problem until your cat is dead.

Some here are proponents that raw diets are the best diet for cats. The idea that they are safe and that people feeding a raw diet to their cats need not worry about bacterial infection was put forward. I addressed that. If you choose to feed raw and not supplement in any way, that is your choice. The point of my post, as you may have noticed, was to point out that there are benefits and risks to ANY diet. One of the risks of a raw diet is taurine deficiency. You really want to argue this? And salmonella is a consideration, not something one shouldn't worry about.

I'm not arguing for one diet over another. I pointed out problems with some of the information presented.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree that a raw diet will provide a taurine deficiency. If the diet is fed properly, i.e. the correct balance of muscle, organ, bone and meat, then there is no deficiency. So all the lions, tigers and jaguars of the world are taurine deficient? The problem with raw or homecooked diets is that you have to be careful to make it complete and balanced. Canned and kibble makes it much easier for us humans.

As for feeding a combination of wet and dry - this is fine if feeding all wet is not in your budget but in my opinion, there is no reason to feed a cat dry. I'm not saying it's poison and if your cat refuses to eat anything else, fine. But canned food is ideal, other than raw, for cats as it provides the essential moisture and digestibility a cat needs. Dry food is maybe 10 % moisture and even if your cat drinks, it will not compensate for the lack of moisture in dry food. If your cat is an outdoor cat then the mice and rats he eats will be sufficient to keep him going. Or, you can feed him more of the wet food to maintain the energy he needs to be outdoors.

If you must feed a dry food, then choose a good one. One with meat, no fillers, especially corn, soy and wheat. Many of the premium dry foods now contain herbs, fruits and veggies which are not necessary but in reality, anything after salt in the ingredients is minimal. For example, if it says blueberries after salt, there is probably one blueberry in the entire bag. Meat should comprise the first five ingredients - keeping in mind that meat has a lot of moisture so the actual amount of meat is skewed.

I don't see where anyone's said "will."

You think we should not mention in discussion of what is best that raw diets can run the risk of taurine deficiency if not properly managed?

LDG, maybe I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say (Aspergers for ya :/) but I thought you were meaning to say that raw diets weren't any better than anything else/possibly worse because a raw rabbit only diet caused taurine deficiences and lack of improvement in the cats.
Sorry if that's not what you meant. >__<