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Should pepper spray be legal?

post #1 of 28
8/22/11 at 10:13am
Thread Starter 
I just found out that pepper spray is actually illegal in Canada, unless sold as "dog spray" to be used in the event of a dog attack. However, if you happen to be carrying "dog spray" for its legitimate purpose and a person attacks you, even if they're attempting to kill you, it's illegal to use the pepper spray on them in the same way it would be illegal to use a concealed gun, and will result in charges like carrying a concealed weapon and assault with a weapon. Whether or not those would hold up in court under circumstances like that, I don't know, but the law exists as such in theory, at any rate.

WDYT? Is it legal where you're from? Do you think it should be legal?
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post #2 of 28
8/22/11 at 12:04pm
There are generally two schools of thought.

There's the "subject" mentality, where the people have rights based on what the government decides to allow them to have. This approach requires the burden on the people to justify why they think they need something.

Then there's the "citizen" mentality, where the people have the right to do as they see fit, and the burden is on the government to justify its use of force against them to limit their freedoms.

Pepper spray is not illegal for use in self-defense in Texas, and as a "citizen" the only justification needed is that the government has no good explanation as to why my right to self-defense has to be removed because it directly interferes with the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of my neighbors. After all, unless my neighbor attacks me, he is completely unaffected by my carrying of pepper spray. If I use it to attack someone, it really doesn't matter if I used a my car-keys in a fist, a kitchen knife, or pepper spray its assault anyway.
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post #3 of 28
8/22/11 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by allroundthesun View Post
I just found out that pepper spray is actually illegal in Canada, unless sold as "dog spray" to be used in the event of a dog attack. However, if you happen to be carrying "dog spray" for its legitimate purpose and a person attacks you, even if they're attempting to kill you, it's illegal to use the pepper spray on them in the same way it would be illegal to use a concealed gun, and will result in charges like carrying a concealed weapon and assault with a weapon. Whether or not those would hold up in court under circumstances like that, I don't know, but the law exists as such in theory, at any rate.

WDYT? Is it legal where you're from? Do you think it should be legal?
It's legal in Florida. I have some. It's not a deadly weapon, so I don't see how it compares to carrying/firing a gun. I don't even think that has any lasting effects. I'm suprised it's not legal in Canada.
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post #4 of 28
8/22/11 at 1:32pm
I have a friend in NY. We were talking about coyote attacks and he asked if I carry pepper spray when I am walking around the woods, I told him it is illegal here and he seemed very surprised.

I never really thought about it until then. I suppose it should be legal, as Rockcat said, it's not deadly and is a good way to get away from an attacker, be it an animal or person. Then again, you have to wonder how many kids would be taking it to school and using it on schoolmates. Still beats knives and guns, I guess.
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post #5 of 28
8/22/11 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyParker View Post
Then again, you have to wonder how many kids would be taking it to school and using it on schoolmates.
Minors aren't really independent citizens yet and have very restricted rights as unresponsible children.

As such, its illegal in Texas for a minor to be sold or be in possession of pepper spray. In fact, all defensive weapons are as far as I know.
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post #6 of 28
8/22/11 at 2:32pm
I'm pretty sure that pepper spray is fully legal here (anyway, I'm a mail carrier and I deal with it daily). I don't see why it wouldn't be legal. And I've never heard of any kid taking it to school or anything. Knives and guns, sometimes, but never pepper spray. That's just an odd thing to say. . .why would kids use it any more than they'd use a spray bottle full of ammonia or something?

ETA: OK, I know it's fully legal here because they sell keychain size pepper spray at the grocery store! I'm really quite mystified as to why it would be illegal anywhere. It's harmless, yet it takes the fight out of anyone with bad intentions. I can think of a million (perfectly legal) things more harmful to your eyes than pepper spray.
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post #7 of 28
8/22/11 at 3:26pm
I remember a child bringing pepper spray (likely sold as bear spray to a parent or something) and spraying it in another kids face in the school yard. It's happened more than once, actually.
Maybe the kids in my area are just dumber than most? lol I don't know.
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post #8 of 28
8/22/11 at 3:29pm
You could do the same with Lysol spray or wasp spray, and it would be a lot more harmful long-term than pepper spray.

But, yeah, why would would any kid do that? Pretty dumb.
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post #9 of 28
8/22/11 at 3:35pm
It is legal here in NC, and I have used it several times in my own defense. I was questioned by the police at the scene and it was determined that I used it properly. In SC, I used it on a cracked out lunatic that ran at me out of the dark, swinging a huge wrench and was arrested for simple assault. Apparently I was supposed to let him hit me with the wrench before I could spray him. If I had shot him, the detective told me I probably would have been questioned and released. Go figure.
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post #10 of 28
8/22/11 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kat2 View Post
I was questioned by the police at the scene and it was determined that I used it properly. In SC, I used it on a cracked out lunatic that ran at me out of the dark, swinging a huge wrench and was arrested for simple assault.
Glad you were uninjured and that the law sided with the victim. It always riles me up when they afford more protection to the attacker (burglar hurts themselves breaking into your house then sues you... ugh) than the person defending themselves.

A great non-lethal equalizer for women in particular IMO, as its completely unreasonable to expect a 100lb person to defend themselves adequately against a 200lb one with just brute strength.
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post #11 of 28
8/23/11 at 6:30am
It's legal here, but I don't have any. I don't even know why I don't have any. I do have several spray bottles in my purse that could cause excruciating pain to someones eyes, trust me, Hair spray or perfume in the eyes HURTS.

I know this because I've accidently spray both in my eyes at one time or another. I'm a little aim challenged. Can you imagine if I decided to carry a weapon?

However, I think I will pick some up for myself and my daughter, as a just in case thing.
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post #12 of 28
8/23/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
You could do the same with Lysol spray or wasp spray, and it would be a lot more harmful long-term than pepper spray.

But, yeah, why would would any kid do that? Pretty dumb.
Some have suggested carrying a can of red spray paint. Not illegal, and the police won't have any trouble identifying your assailant. (You can get small cans at hobby stores.)
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post #13 of 28
8/23/11 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Some have suggested carrying a can of red spray paint. Not illegal, and the police won't have any trouble identifying your assailant. (You can get small cans at hobby stores.)
LOL! Downside though is that from personal experience, unless you really get it in their eyes, the spray paint isn't going to do anything. I was screwing around with a nearly full but broken tip spray can a while back used for a few parts on the Impala SS, and got my neck.

If I had sprayed that amount on my neck of a powerful pepper spray (not mace, mace sucks), I would have been bent over with teary eyes, boogers coming out my nose, and possibly nauseous heh.

That is an EXCELLENT idea though, I wonder why they don't include pigment in pepper spray!!! They could use a myriad of unique colors for example, not only to help identify an assailant that flees but also if it were abused, it would also be a bit of a 'signature' like a bullet casing or the ID tags released from tasers.
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post #14 of 28
8/23/11 at 12:22pm
I thought most pepper spray had some red coloring to it, so you could see where you had sprayed. Maybe they quit doing that? I would put in an indelible dye (like in a dye pack) and an ultraviolet pigment, too.
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post #15 of 28
8/23/11 at 2:55pm
The spray we use at the Post Office is dyed orange so the dog the carrier sprayed can be identified. I don't know if it dyes skin, though. . .I should rub some on my arm and see how easily it washes off.
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post #16 of 28
8/23/11 at 3:03pm
I think if I thought the paint was a good idea, I would see if I could put a wasp spray nozzle on the paint can, so it would spray in a stream instead of a spray.
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post #17 of 28
8/24/11 at 5:20am
When I worked in a bank we had the dye packs on the packs of money received from Wells fargo. Most of the time our robbers (yeah-worked in a bad area) weren't bright enough to ask for the BIIIIG money, they just wanted what the teller had in her drawer, but one time, the guy was savvy to when we got our shipments of money, and took it all. (about 75,000-this was in the early 90's when we had alot of cash in the bank-now you have to call ahead for a large amount to withdraw)

Imagine his surprise when he was covered with purple dye when he checked his loot. It wasn't hard to find him-he checked it in the getaway car a block from the bank. He was the one in orange tie dye with purple streaks. very fashionable.

The police thought it was the funniest thing they'd seen,(especially the orange tie dye) and brought him back to us for identification. We ID'd the dye as being ours.
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post #18 of 28
8/24/11 at 6:00am
Pepper spray shouldn't be illegal, but it shouldn't be sold in grocery stores, either. There should be control that it's sold to adults only, like cigarettes and alcohol.

krazy kat2, WOW, I would have done the same as you did. I'm glad the law was on your side but it sounds like it wasn't easy for you.

"Oops, I thought it was a bear!"
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post #19 of 28
8/27/11 at 8:17am
Pepper spray is legal in KS, I have a lot of friends who carry it. I personally do not, but my dad says I should probably consider it. I live in a safe part of Kansas City, but ye olde ghetto isn't too far away, I suppose... I just hate thinking that because I live near the bad part of town, something bad's going to happen to me.

Maybe that optimistic feeling will get me in trouble sooner than later.
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post #20 of 28
8/30/11 at 10:06am
Pretty certain it's legal here in SC. Heard a local cop talk about how they have to be sprayed with it during training in order to know what it feels like, no thanks! I do think it should be legal, but controlled to where only adults can purchase it - never know what kids are just going to spray each other with it or use it for bullying.

I don't carry it, but I intend to get a CWP. The cops are out A LOT lately in town, because there were 3 shootings last week. So much for the "safe" area I live in
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post #21 of 28
8/30/11 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara & Rob View Post
I do think it should be legal, but controlled to where only adults can purchase it - never know what kids are just going to spray each other with it or use it for bullying.
That's what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. However, if its sitting in moms purse, or in a kitchen drawer, its not hard for kids to get. Jut like alcohol, cigarettes and even guns. Of course, that comes down to irresponsibility on the parents behalf.
I do think it should be legal here though. I feel vulnerable a lot with absolutely no protection on me. I sometimes carry a small knife but even that is illegal over a certain size. Police officers are protected up the yin yang while we have to walk around empty handed and just hope we don't get jumped.
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post #22 of 28
8/30/11 at 1:52pm
I think pepper spray should be legal. Yes, it's painful; and yes, it can cause injury, but as far as weapons go, it's far less likely to cause serious injury than a gun. Moreover, if you are like me (and most people are) in that you would hesitate for quite a while before you shot somebody, carrying pepper spray is a much better idea than carrying a gun because, knowing it is very unlikely to cause serious injury, you will be much quicker to use it. That makes it much more likely to stop an attack than a gun, which you might hesitate too long to use.

I think a good government should allow those who have had proper training to carry firearms (the danger from improperly trained users has always been the biggest cause of injury); but they should also encourage the use of less-lethal weapons like pepper spray. There are quite a few people who cannot afford a firearm, don't want to carry one, shouldn't carry one (if you have a history of depression, I sure as heck don't recommend it!), or have small kids in the house who are too young to be taught gun safety. For those people, there needs to be a self-defense alternative that's better than just calling 911 and waiting twenty minutes for the cops to get there.
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post #23 of 28
8/31/11 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyParker View Post
That's what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. However, if its sitting in moms purse, or in a kitchen drawer, its not hard for kids to get. Jut like alcohol, cigarettes and even guns. Of course, that comes down to irresponsibility on the parents behalf.
I do think it should be legal here though. I feel vulnerable a lot with absolutely no protection on me. I sometimes carry a small knife but even that is illegal over a certain size. Police officers are protected up the yin yang while we have to walk around empty handed and just hope we don't get jumped.

That is true they could steal it from a family member or find someone of age to purchase it, but I guess it would also be better than just allowing them to go into a store and buy it on their own. Sometimes making things harder deters a few people from bothering (like locking car doors may deter a thief to go elsewhere) . I agree should fall onto parents irresponsibility if the kids gained access to it through them.

I find it insane that it isn't legal where you are, because it's not as dangerous as other means of protection people have - or as dangerous as what someone might come at you with!. I guess they just expect you to use your car keys in your fist as protection everywhere you go or something? I have a small knife my husband gave me when he bought a new one, though its heavy and always falls to the bottom of my purse - sometimes I forget I have it . I also have a small pink rechargeable stun gun my best friend gave me (and all her other female friends) at Xmas ... not sure how it works yet because no one will let me try it on them I also intend to get a CWP for my 9mm subcompact in the future.
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post #24 of 28
8/31/11 at 11:28am
In most areas, you have to be anywhere from fifteen to eighteen years old to buy a knife. Put the pepper spray under the same restriction, and that makes sense to me.

Regarding kids bullying each other using pepper spray--That's not the style most bullies have. They don't think ahead of time, that much. Not as kids, anyway. They tend to be more impulsive, intimidating, taking opportunities as they come, rather than planning beforehand. The most likely child to want pepper spray would be the victim, not the bully; and as far as I'm concerned, he can have it, and more power to him. I was bullied as a kid, and in my experience, it's quite uncommon to have any help from adults even when you do speak up about it. They just tell you "don't react" or "fight back" or whatever, which is useless advice when they're bigger than you, or outnumber you, or know that they can blame the fight on you because they're the principal's daughter and you're the troublemaker. I'd much rather have a kid fight back with pepper spray than bring a knife to school.
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post #25 of 28
8/31/11 at 3:23pm
Like I said, it's readily available here (I don't know if they restrict the sale to those over a certain age or not, but it is right out on the shelf. But so is spray paint, and that is age-restricted), and I just never hear of deliberate misuse. I'm sure it happens, but so does deliberate misuse of stuff like glue, nail polish (for huffing), golf clubs, baseball bats (for vandalism), and a whole lot of other stuff, and none of that is restricted or banned (some glue might be, not sure).

I don't know how it would be used for bullying. . .bullies don't really want anything, other than to torment someone in a way that preferably won't get them into trouble, and I think parents and educators would take notice of a pepper spray incident. And if kids are spraying each other with it out of curiosity or experimentation. . .well, I'm pretty sure they'll only do that once!

Pepper spray being a self-defense method that doesn't cause permanent harm just makes me think it should be freely available. You could do more permanent damage with your keys in your fist, or putting your knee in his groin. Which I wouldn't care about if it really was a bad guy. . .but sometimes things get overblown, people overreact, and if the guy is innocent, better he cry for an hour than have his eye put out with a key.
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post #26 of 28
8/31/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeishcat View Post
Pepper spray is legal in KS, I have a lot of friends who carry it. I personally do not, but my dad says I should probably consider it. I live in a safe part of Kansas City, but ye olde ghetto isn't too far away, I suppose... I just hate thinking that because I live near the bad part of town, something bad's going to happen to me.
They have some that's so small, it could fit in your purse without burdening you, and its one of those "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".

If you're at all around kids though, be sure to buy one of the child-proof ones, but still go ahead and get the highest scoville heat unit rated one of those you can IMO. Even the highest legal ones don't cause any permanent damage. In fact, I believe "the Dog" bounty hunter carried bear-strength pepper spray and used it too.

My dad and I kinda egged on our sister about it, because as strong as she is, she's still not that much over a buck in weight around army guys that are often over 200lbs of muscle. Pepper spray can be a good equalizer so you can run away w/o concern of them chasing you (a good shot to the face should temporarily blind and make breathing difficult).
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post #27 of 28
8/31/11 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
If you're at all around kids though, be sure to buy one of the child-proof ones, but still go ahead and get the highest scoville heat unit rated one of those you can IMO. Even the highest legal ones don't cause any permanent damage. In fact, I believe "the Dog" bounty hunter carried bear-strength pepper spray and used it too.
The Chapman's use pepper spray because they don't believe in guns. Sort of risky considering their line of work. Its useless if someone were to pull a gun first. They'd rather fight crime with kindness though. It's working...so far.

I would like to see it legalized here though. There's been a rash of kids jumping people at night...not even with weapons, just beating them up and taking money. Why shouldn't the victims have a chance to fight back first?
Laws are made to protect us...PFFFT.
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post #28 of 28
9/2/11 at 10:01am
Maybe "bully" wasn't the right word. But we had some horrible kids on the bus when I was in middle school that had no qualms about being physical or hurting people. One of them pulled some of my friend's hair out and made fun of her Polish name as we were getting off the bus, so she punched him in the stomach causing him to cry and double over. He certainly wasn't expecting that (but knowing she had 3 older siblings, I wasn't surprised!) and never messed with her again. Another time a kid who was 2 years younger than us tried to light another friend's stuff on fire, and hit her. Another time pulled out a pocket knife and said he could cut people. So never know if one of those types would get their hands on it...
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