Dry Food Myths Revealed!

Originally Posted by Minka

If he even sees/hears a bag that's like a kibble bag, he goes Nuts.

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And many cats go nuts for wet food, and as seen in Myth # 1, both of my cats completely ignored the PARTICULAR dry food in favor of the PARTICULAR wet food. You can see how excited Wesley is here for his wet pestering me as I mix it up for him on a plate.

Originally Posted by Minka

Dry food is made palatable by adding in flavorings. Whether it be animal digest, natural or artificial flavorings it doesn't matter to me, it's cheating.

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See myth # 3. Dry food is no more universally alike than wet food is. You will notice that the dry food does not contain animal digest and that the wet food contains artificial flavorings.

Originally Posted by Minka

Also, your calculations are way off, so you may want to go back to the drawing board.

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I was going to correct you, but I believe you'll have more success removing human error using this popular online tool: http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

Originally Posted by Minka

And yes, I would like to mirror Auntie Crazy's comment by saying I don't understand people who realize that kibble does not have sufficient moisture for a cat, but then try to say that half the diet being water-deficient is just fine.

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This is a straw-man argument, based on the idea that the more moisture a cat consumes, the healthier it is. By that logic, if I were to create a soup recipe that were 95% water, it would be healthier than 78% water. What is important is that cats get their required moisture intake for the day, and I believe this is easily achieved with mixed feeding and attractive clean water fountains.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Hmmm, I don't know anyone on TCS who has referred to kibble as "poison". Nor is there any logic to feeding grains to an obligate carnivore

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Virtually =! Literally. There are several grain-free dry foods available, as is currently fed to Wesley and Buttercup, although there are very few commercial wet or dry foods that don't contain vegetable matter even in grainfree, you just end up seeing peas/potatoes/carrots and the like which is fine as long as it is not in prodigious amounts. It is actually only their wet food that at times have grain (brown rice in particular), and this is not the end of the world, and some believe can in fact contribute to urinary health since rice for example is low in magnesium/phosphorous and can be used to tweak target urine PH (meats contribute to acidic urine and vegetables to alkaline).

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Knowledge is power, my friends. It gives us the ability to make informed choices that allow us to succeed in our endeavors; in this case, to feed the best foods we can to our cats. Denying the truth takes away that power and leaves us open to negative consequences.

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We can all agree on that, and hopefully keep non-factual misinformation and overly broad statements that are not universally true to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

See myth # 3. Dry food is no more universally alike than wet food is. You will notice that the dry food does not contain animal digest and that the wet food contains artificial flavorings.

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No, but the dry foods you mentioned DO contain flavorings. So your point is made kinda moot.

I was going to correct you, but I believe you'll have more success removing human error using this popular online tool: http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

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I DID use that tool, thanks.

What is important is that cats get their required moisture intake for the day, and I believe this is easily achieved with mixed feeding and attractive clean water fountains.

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And I disagree.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Virtually =! Literally. There are several grain-free dry foods available, as is currently fed to Wesley and Buttercup, although there are very few commercial wet or dry foods that don't contain vegetable matter even in grainfree, you just end up seeing peas/potatoes/carrots and the like which is fine as long as it is not in prodigious amounts. It is actually only their wet food that at times have grain (brown rice in particular), and this is not the end of the world, and some believe can in fact contribute to urinary health since rice for example is low in magnesium/phosphorous and can be used to tweak target urine PH (meats contribute to acidic urine and vegetables to alkaline).

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You are still missing the point that cats are obligate carnivores, and so their meat-only diet doesn't Need to be tweaked. If cats in the wild needed plants to pee correctly, they'd be eating them, but guess what? They don't.

Originally Posted by Minka

No, but the dry foods you mentioned DO contain flavorings. So your point is made kinda moot.

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So your argument is that commercial wet foods and dry foods both often contain flavorings, making your point... what? That wet and dry food is generally the same in that respect? I agree! Minka, remember that you need to include all ash and mineral content into the tool for it to work properly.

Originally Posted by Minka

You are still missing the point that cats are obligate carnivores, and so their meat-only diet doesn't Need to be tweaked. If cats in the wild needed plants to pee correctly, they'd be eating them, but guess what? They don't.

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I was comparing commercial wet and dry food, and pointing out that both are likely to include various plant materials even grain-free labeled products. Cats in the wild live very hard and very short brutal lives, are typically malnourished, and often eat food that is full of parasites or is buried and eaten days later full of bacteria because that is all that is available to them and so they are happy to have it. I imagine that cats in the wild are envious of Wesley and Buttercup's pampered lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

So your argument is that commercial wet foods and dry foods both often contain flavorings, making your point... what? That wet and dry food is generally the same in that respect? I agree!

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No, my point was that the foods you listed as being better than wet aren't that great really.

Minka, remember that you need to include all ash and mineral content into the tool for it to work properly.

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Do you take me for a fool or what??? You were the one that listed Wellness as having 42% fat which is ridiculous..
It's also insulting to know that you didn't even bother to read my post which specifically said "Wellness Core has 45% protein, 18% fat, 3% fiber, 11% moisture, and around 4.5% ash"

I was comparing commercial wet and dry food, and pointing out that both are likely to include various plant materials even grain-free labeled products. Cats in the wild live very hard and very short brutal lives, are typically malnourished, and often eat food that is full of parasites or is buried and eaten days later full of bacteria because that is all that is available to them and so they are happy to have it. I imagine that cats in the wild are envious of Wesley and Buttercup's pampered lifestyle.

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What animal planet are you watching? Malnourished animals in the wild die. Each animal eats specifically and exactly what it needs to get everything it needs. And for cats, that is meat with a miniscule amount of vegetable matter from the stomachs of their prey.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Ducman is not the only person supporting a kibble diet. Actually I strongly support a mixed diet but feeding an all kibble diet is not the gloom and doom some people make it out to be. I know this was addressed to Ducman but thought I would throw my 2 cents in as well

I know you won't mind.

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No I don't mind NutroMike. There will always be two sides for and against. I have no problem debating, discussing and welcome all comments (until they get disrespectful, then there is no point). However, I don't need the pom-poms either.

In reading the message boards between vets from all over North America, it seems that there are all-kibble, half-wet, half-dry, and all-wet feeders but mostly the first two types. Of course, this is not a perfectly random sample nor large enough to represent all vets but it is interesting to read their points of view. Some are vehement on seeing empirical evidence; others base their opinions on personal experience both with their own animals and those of their clients. One consistent view is that kibble helps with dental health - especially Hills t/d. As well, it seems that Dr. Pierson meets much resistance when she defends her POV regarding wet vs. dry. But most of the vets are supportive of the rx foods as they are large companies who do research and do the aafco feeding trials (on some of the foods, not all). Interestingly, it seems that vets are having a hard time trying to convince clients that rx foods are better quality than those in the pet store, including the so-called premium foods.

Not to get away from the topic, kibble will not 'kill' your cat per se. When I was growing up, I was under the impression that canned food was a treat and that's why people always fed dry. They didn't want their cats to stop eating the kibble and become addicted to canned because it's fattening. So different than what I know now. So yeah cats have been surviving on kibble for years...just as there are myths about dry food, there are myths about canned food.

Originally Posted by Minka

Do you take me for a fool or what??? You were the one that listed Wellness as having 42% fat which is ridiculous..
It's also insulting to know that you didn't even bother to read my post which specifically said "Wellness Core has 45% protein, 18% fat, 3% fiber, 11% moisture, and around 4.5% ash"

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I'm sorry, I either missed that, or it was an edited addition after I had already seen your post, and I thought you were talking about your incorrect calculation for Captiva.

My numbers are not off, the reason for your confusion is listed as kcal %, taken directly from the chart posted earlier: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html You'll see the numbers are all apples/apples taken from that source for the wet and dry foods in the comparison.

Originally Posted by Minka

What animal planet are you watching? Malnourished animals in the wild die. Each animal eats specifically and exactly what it needs to get everything it needs. And for cats, that is meat with a miniscule amount of vegetable matter from the stomachs of their prey.

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If you honestly believe that feral cats are a model of ideal health and optimum nutrition... good luck with that. Feral cats do not have the time or luxury to supplement their diet with small amounts of anti-oxidants to help them with free radicals in old age. Indoor cats on commercial diets typically live into their mid teens, whereas feral life expectancy is 4.7 years.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

If you honestly believe that feral cats are a model of ideal health and optimum nutrition... good luck with that. Feral cats do not have the time or luxury to supplement their diet with small amounts of anti-oxidants to help them with free radicals in old age. Indoor cats on commercial diets typically live into their mid teens, whereas feral life expectancy is 4.7 years.

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Please tell me how ferals got into this conversation???
I wasn't talking about animals that have been thrown out of homes and left to fend for themselves on the street, I'm talking about the ancestors of domestic cats. Feral animals don't have a good basis for anything because they don't have the same strong genes that make up the pools of wild animals. Not to mention they usually live in city areas where natural prey is not abundant.

The ancestors of domestic cats however, got everything they needed to be healthy and thrive from the natural prey of the landscape. No corn, grain, or soy involved.

I'm sorry Minka, but you are rapidly getting off topic, considering that any discussion about "dry food myths" only really makes sense in comparison to alternatives, which for most is commercial wet food.

If you want grain-free dry foods that are very low carb with nearly all calories coming from meat and fat, those are available as demonstrated. As shown earlier, processing ingredients either into a dry kibble or cooking it in a can does not have a direct bearing on what ingredients are used in any particular recipe. The only inherent difference are not ingredients, but moisture content and texture. There are wet foods that are chocked full of rice, wheat, corn, carrots, you name it, so clearly your argument is not relevant or exclusive to "dry food myths". Agreed?

To briefly touch on your other comment, generally speaking an abandoned cat kicked out of a home is referred to as a stray rather than a feral. I did not realize that you were intending to compare the nutritional needs of the domestic cat to a different species of animal, and am impressed that you have detailed knowledge of animals that lived over 100K years ago, and am a bit confused as to how you find that more relevant than comparing to a wild current day domestic cat (feral). Ultimately, in a comparison of commercial wet and dry food, it is moot.

I'M getting off topic? What, have I been talking to myself?

I'm debunking that dry is a species appropriate food as you make it out to be because cats naturally eat meat only and the majority of dry is full of carbs and no dry has enough wet to properly hydrate a cat.

I'm done dealing with your avoidance of topics and use of sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Minka

I'm debunking that dry is a species appropriate food as you make it out to be because cats naturally eat meat only and the majority of dry is full of carbs

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You're perpetuating the perfect example of MYTH # 2.

Not a single one of these 'premium' canned foods below is made of exclusively meat, and all have some vegetable matter in the recipe:


You can look at the factual numbers posted, that shows that Wellness Core Dry or Nature's Variety Raw Instinct Dry in the two examples are both low-carb and are made with premium grain-free ingredients. Evo dry's first five (and thus primary) ingredients are "Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat".

There are many dry foods that are full of carbs, you are absolutely right, just as there are many wet foods that are full of carbs, but as a shopper you can pick low-carb grain-free options for either. And there is certainly nothing stopping you from wetting dry food if paranoid about hydration, which many find makes the food even more palatable since it makes the dry smell more strongly, although this would surely eliminate the abrasive dental benefit.

Thank you for the information everyone. I will look for my better dry for my non diabetic cats and check out the prescription diet of my diabetic cat as well. I don't know if I will ever feed them totally wet food. Three of mine (all strays and the last one was from the shelter) have teeth/gum issues. Taking them in for them to go under to get their teeth cleaned is very scary for me since I had a cat die on the operating table once. They won't let me near their mouth to brush for them (they don't even tolerate being held) so I hope eating a mix will help prevent some of the build up

Okay first of all as some of you have pointed out from first hand experience some cats will NOT eat wet food. So trying to convert those cats is often times pointless.

Next not all cats are "water deficient". Many many cats drink plenty of water. Yes, some do not drink enough water but that does not mean they all do.

Third a mixed diet (commercial dry and commercial wet) is often a happy compromise between "healthy and purse/wallet". Three of my four cats are fed a mixed diet and are still alive and kicking .

Lastly as someone else pointed out UTI is something a cat is prone to. Yes a change from the ORIGINAL diet MAYBE needed cause of the UTI. But the ORIGINAL diet MAY NOT have caused the UTI.

So Ducman69 you rock !

The best food for your cat is the one it will eat. Some of us have experienced the weight gain associated with dry food and have switched to wet. Some of us know that dry food does little to nothing to help tartar buildup. I do believe that Hills T/D is the only food that has had any proof that it helps tartar buildup. If others want to argue the point, just let it be.

There are better quality foods in both wet and dry. Read the ingredients and do your homework because there will always be some who think they know more than the experienced and experts. I don't hold a lot of faith in "statistics" and information from the food producers who have a vested interest or the internet in general. Not all information on the internet is the gospel truth so just beware.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

The best food for your cat is the one it will eat. Some of us have experienced the weight gain associated with dry food and have switched to wet. Some of us know that dry food does little to nothing to help tartar buildup. I do believe that Hills T/D is the only food that has had any proof that it helps tartar buildup. If others want to argue the point, just let it be.

There are better quality foods in both wet and dry. Read the ingredients and do your homework because there will always be some who think they know more than the experienced and experts. I don't hold a lot of faith in "statistics" and information from the food producers who have a vested interest or the internet in general. Not all information on the internet is the gospel truth so just beware.

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Very very well said. It is important to feed a diet your cat will eat. I agree with you a hundred percent the best diet is one your cat will eat!!

It is also important as you pointed out to read the labels and do your own "homework". Since this is only a forum and you the cat owner need to feel satisfied with what you are feeding your cat is what matters, not people on a forum .

Good work Yosemite!

Originally Posted by Cat Person

Very very well said. It is important to feed a diet your cat will eat. I agree with you a hundred percent the best diet is one your cat will eat!!

It is also important as you pointed out to read the labels and do your own "homework". Since this is only a forum and you the cat owner need to feel satisfied with what you are feeding your cat is what matters, not people on a forum

.

Good work Yosemite!

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DHere go the pom-poms.(I am not referring to anything Yosemite said). Don't misconstrue what I and others have said. We are only voicing our opinions. We are not criticizing how you or anyone feeds their cats. There are more reasons why someone feeds their cat a particular food. Criteria such as:
*a food that is healthy
*a food that produces good results like normal stools, nice shiny coat, vitality, etc.
*food within their budget (which could also be affected by the number of cats they have, such as in the case of rescues and shelters or just someone who has multi cats). If one has a tight budget, dry may.be the best option.
*environment plays a role - indoor, outdoor, feral, etc. Also does the owner free feed or meal feed? Usually, free fed cats are fed dry (not.only dry in some cases but dry is left out for snacking)
*what a person is comfortable feeding - one may not be comfortable with feeding raw due to salmonella concerns or one may not like having to open cans.
*most importantly, a food that their cat will eat.

What I think and express on this and other forums is not judgement but an opinion. It is not to force someone to feed wet food. I'd like to think that the people who ask the questions or introduce a topic can think for themselves and make their own decisions. I enjoy forums because there are so many different people with many different experiences and points of view. It provides a different perspective than reading a book. But ultimately, it is my decision whether to accept what is said. It is also my decision to dismiss disrespectful comments. And if others agree with my opinions, then so be it. I can respect them as well as those who don't agree with them.

Anyways, I did say I was done and now I am.

There's at least one more factor to consider.

There are many people who are living on a very restricted income. For them, anything more expensive than a store brand of food could become a real hardship. I'd rather see some abandoned cat or kitten getting that food than being left outdoors to try to make it on their own or, more likely, die very quickly.

I find the two perspectives very interesting.
I admit I am clueless about this and didn't even realize that a debate existed. In our house, wet food is a treat, and dry food is the norm. Our vet is very adamant about us feeding our cats dry food and not wet, though he has never explained why that was.
I am not sure which option is best for any of my cats, but I appreciate having the opportunity to see the different sides of this subject so that I may research further on my own and walk into my next vet appointment as an informed individual!

Originally Posted by mrblanche

There's at least one more factor to consider.

There are many people who are living on a very restricted income. For them, anything more expensive than a store brand of food could become a real hardship. I'd rather see some abandoned cat or kitten getting that food than being left outdoors to try to make it on their own or, more likely, die very quickly.

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Great point, there is a significant cost difference, more than most realize.

Now this is hardly a "cheap" food by any stretch of the imagination, but we can compare Blue Wilderness formula as an example.

For 11lbs of dry Wilderness Duck as my munchkins get, its $34.99 on Petsmart.com. 3,683 kcal/kg (source bluebuffalo.com) converts to 1840 kcal/lb multiplied by 11lbs of food, is 20,240kcal per bag so 578kcal per $.

Blue Wilderness Duck 3oz is $1.49 on the same site. 111 kcal/can (source bluebuffalo.com) @ $1.50 a can is 74kcal per $.

Blue Wilderness thus buys you 578kcal in dry formula for every 74kcal of wet, or in other words,
Wilderness wet is 780% more expensive than Wilderness dry.

When you can feed eight cats dry for the cost of one fed wet, that represents a tremendous cost savings in at least a mixed diet for which the savings can go towards better veterinary care, cat toys, trees, or uhm, well, the electricity bill for your house!

Thanks for the link to the Polish study on dry food and relationship to oral health. But the results of that study (and the qualifications mentioned in the protocols of the study are many) stand in stark contrast to almost every study done over the past number of decades here in the U.S. Here is a summary/review of some: the citations are included, and a number of them are reviews of the literature themselves. http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/d...ean-the-teeth/

The bottom line is that even if most cats chewed their food (and many don't, which is why toothless cats do just fine eating dry food), when an animal bites on kibble (unlike a bone), it shatters, "so contact between kibble and the teeth occurs only at the tips of the teeth."

With four siblings that are over nine years old now, primarily on a dry food diet for the first 4-5 years, then a mixed diet that was still primarily dry for the next 3-4 years, our experience would agree with the studies done in the U.S. (dry has no impact on oral health), not the one study in Poland (dry was an indicator of better oral health). It seems to me that genetics are the major driver, as our Spooky needed her first dental at the age of 1, had her first tooth removed at the age of 2, and has had to have a total of 4 teeth removed in her nine years.

So while the dry food diet does not appear to have impacted their oral health, the dry food diet definitely caused problems for the boys' bladders. The three males all had problems with crystals, and interestingly two of them had an issue with struvite and one a problem with calcium oxalate (on the exact same diet).

The article to which I provided a link at LittleBigCat points out that the U.S. studies indicate that dry food cleans cats' teeth as well as eating pretzels cleans a human's teeth.

Common sense, to me, is that kibble can in no way be compared to a bone. While chewing the bark of a Neem tree may benefit human oral health, you can't substitute Neem Tree bark with ... an organic protein bar.

Quality food is quality food. Junk food is junk food. Genetics are genetics.

The fact of the matter is that cats are obligate carnivores.

We switched our cats to an all wet diet last year, after having improved the quality of the wet/dry mix we'd been feeding them in 2008. We thought they were thriving before. We thought their coats were thick, soft, and glossy before. And they were. But they have more energy now, and their coats are even thicker, softer, and glossier than they were.

Debate away. For me, the results are something I play with, pet, and snuggle every day now.