Feeding raw to FIV+ cats

As you guys might (or might not) know, my kitty is FIV+.
I have no plans to switch to raw currently, as I'm under my grandmothers roof and she would not appreciate her freezer being full of dead animals for my cat, the fur everywhere is already pushing it.

But assuming he stays in good health, would it be okay to feed him raw at a later date? He caught a baby bird not too long ago and boy did he enjoy eating it. Feathers and bones and all. And to no ill effects. Does that mean he'd be okay on a raw diet? Do you think the health benefits of raw will outweigh the risks?

Hi Minka - The American Association of Feline Practitioners in their feline Retrovirus Management - Says no, you should not, due to the greater risk of food-born bacteria and parasitic diseases in immune compromised cats. This seems to be the consensus with the veterinarian community and FIV publications and guidelines, as well as the ASPCA.
I am sure some will show up here and say otherwise.... There are people who feed their FIV cats a raw diet and they thrive. This is a fine line to cross though as you ARE dealing with an immune compromised cat - whatever you do, all I say is do not do this alone, do it with the guidance and support of a holistic vet.

Hi, Minka!

I don't have an FIV+ kitty, but I've thought about this topic a lot. I'll tell you how I weigh this issue and what I'd do, but in the end, this is one of those comfort-level decisions that has to made by the person involved.

So, point one. FIV+ kitties need to have the best nutrition to support and strengthen their systems as much as possible. As you must be aware (or you wouldn't be considering this option), that means a balanced raw diet of whole, fresh meats, etc.

Point two. Cats can handle very large bacterial loads in their foods. In the studies I've read, only cats who were undernourished and actively ill were ever affected by the bacteria in their food (in that particular case, it was Salmonella) and that bacteria was present at a level far in excess of what would normally be found in nature.

Point three. There are, to my knowledge, more recalls on commercially-prepared pet foods for bacterial contamination (usually Salmonella) than there are on fresh whole meats in the human food chain.

Given this information, I believe I would feed raw to my FIV+ kitty. I would make sure the meats, etc. were as fresh as possible and I would prep it as expeditiously as possible to maintain that freshness, but I would feed it and feel safer doing so than offering anything commercially-prepared.

The truth is, I believe we've been conditioned to be scared to feed our own cats without the pet food industry's help, and to believe that raw meat is deadly dangerous; I believe the perceived danger in feeding raw is far greater than the truth.

AC

My nutritionally trained, holistic DVM that treats Chumley (our FIV+ kitty) feeds her own animals a raw food diet, and does not want me to feed Chumley raw anything.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

The truth is, I believe we've been conditioned to be scared to feed our own cats without the pet food industry's help, and to believe that raw meat is deadly dangerous; I believe the perceived danger in feeding raw is far greater than the truth.

AC

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AC, the testing done on the meat by the USDA indicates that meat in this country does generally carry loads of bacteria like salmonella well above something you'd find in a natural prey diet in the wild. I don't know that I'd classify raw meat as "deadly dangerous," but it sure can be for immuno-compromised animals.

Originally Posted by LDG

AC, the testing done on the meat by the USDA indicates that meat in this country does generally carry loads of bacteria like salmonella well above something you'd find in a natural prey diet in the wild. I don't know that I'd classify raw meat as "deadly dangerous," but it sure can be for immuno-compromised animals.

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I don't have an immuno-compromised cat, Laurie, and I've not as thoroughly studied this subject as I have feline nutrition in general, so while I know there are other FIV+ cat owners who feed raw, and believe I would also do so were I in the same position, I can only offer my (current) reasoning without any actual suggestions.

Knowing how often commercially-packaged foods are being recalled for salmonella, and knowing that contamination is pretty much confined to the surface of the local grocery store meat products typically purchased for raw diets, and that one can mitigate potential contaminations by choosing sources carefully and mitigating it further by rinsing and searing the outside of the meats, combined with how much healthier a raw fed cat is... yeah, I'm still coming down on the side of feeding it.

I am, however, open to learning more (about this and anything else related to feline nutrition!). Perhaps this should be something decided more on a cat-by-cat basis? I expect I'll have to do a lot more research before I feel comfortable making any suggestions on this topic, if ever.

AC

The idea that the bacteria in a freshly caught bird is higher than in the chicken in your grocery store is outright dangerous IMO. A freshly caught bird has not been given time to decompose, and it did not pass through a constantly reused slaughter-house and rendering plant touching various surfaces as it is processed and packaged before shipment where refrigeration can only delay the natural microbial growth in the meat. The chicken you buy at the grocery store did however, and the FDA readily admits that salmonella is in fact to be expected in raw meat shipped to consumers, which is why it is to be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 165oF or be considered hazardous.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3...?dopt=Abstract

Below is an excerpt from the FDA:

"These circumstances are particularly relevant to raw meat products for animals, in large part because they are not heat treated and because raw animal tissues may harbor many potentially pathogenic organisms, including bacteria (e.g., Salmonella, Escherichia coli) and parasites.1-4 The FDA has promulgated a regulation specifying that meat scraps or other similar animal by-products are adulterated when they are found upon examination to be contaminated with Salmonella microorganisms, (Title 21 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 500.35). Not only are the animals consuming the product at risk of infection by organisms contained in the raw tissues, but the people handling the product are also at risk. Adequate heat treatment is the most effective and efficient means of mitigating this risk. Because some processes currently used, such as freezing or freeze-drying, do not achieve the same degree of effectiveness as heat treatment, the measures discussed and recommended below are important in reducing the risk of infection and the likelihood of the product being adulterated."

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And also:

"Although found in many farm animals, Campylobacter in poultry is causing experts the most concern. There have been several studies pointing to high levels of Campylobacter present on poultry at the retail level, including a recent two-year Minnesota Department of Health study that found that 88percent of poultry sampled from local supermarkets tested positive for the bacteria.

Symptoms of campylobacteriosis usually occur within two to 10 days of ingesting the bacteria. Children, the elderly, and people with weakened immune systems are particularly at risk."

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Further the American Veterinary Medical Association states:

"Nonetheless, the results of the small number of diets analyzed here indicated that there are clearly nutritional and health risks associated with feeding raw food diets. All the diets tested had nutritional deficiencies or excesses that could cause serious health problems when used in a long-term feeding program. Of equal concern is the health risks associated with bacteria in the raw food diets, especially the homemade diet that yielded E. coli O157:H7. Although owners feeding raw food diets often claim that dogs are more resistant to pathogenic bacteria, we are not aware of evidence to support that claim."

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Surely there isn't any debate that an immune compromised cat is not able to combat bacterial infection as readily.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

...Knowing how often commercially-packaged foods are being recalled for salmonella, and knowing that contamination is pretty much confined to the surface of the local grocery store meat products typically purchased for raw diets, and that one can mitigate potential contaminations by choosing sources carefully and mitigating it further by rinsing and searing the outside of the meats, combined with how much healthier a raw fed cat is... yeah, I'm still coming down on the side of feeding it....

AC

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I posted this in this thread, Best diet for cats?, but frequency of recalls is not indicative of size/impact of recalls.

Originally Posted by LDG

Bacterial infections are a potential problem with any diet. But given that the commercial pet foods sell 7 million tonnes annually in the US, even when a company like Diamond recalls 1 million pounds of pet food, that is 0.01% of the pet food sold. Compare that to 20% of our chicken being infected with (at least just) salmonella...

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This would just be another concern for feeding immuno-compromised kitties raw food: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=235501

The high prevalence of MRSA in commercial meat.

I agree with the ones suggesting not... Having a few nutritional trained vets ( ie masters degree or equivalent in companion animal nutrition) there are a few times not to feed raw and this is one of them...

auntie crazy said:

Hi, Minka!

I don't have an FIV+ kitty, but I've thought about this topic a lot. I'll tell you how I weigh this issue and what I'd do, but in the end, this is one of those comfort-level decisions that has to made by the person involved.

So, point one. FIV+ kitties need to have the best nutrition to support and strengthen their systems as much as possible. As you must be aware (or you wouldn't be considering this option), that means a balanced raw diet of whole, fresh meats, etc.

Point two. Cats can handle very large bacterial loads in their foods. In the studies I've read, only cats who were undernourished and actively ill were ever affected by the bacteria in their food (in that particular case, it was Salmonella) and that bacteria was present at a level far in excess of what would normally be found in nature.

Point three. There are, to my knowledge, more recalls on commercially-prepared pet foods for bacterial contamination (usually Salmonella) than there are on fresh whole meats in the human food chain.

Given this information, I believe I would feed raw to my FIV+ kitty. I would make sure the meats, etc. were as fresh as possible and I would prep it as expeditiously as possible to maintain that freshness, but I would feed it and feel safer doing so than offering anything commercially-prepared.

The truth is, I believe we've been conditioned to be scared to feed our own cats without the pet food industry's help, and to believe that raw meat is deadly dangerous; I believe the perceived danger in feeding raw is far greater than the truth.

AC

Click to expand...

Greetings!
Here it is 2017 and how time has flown. I had to give my vote for your reply. We have feed our cats raw diet forever, or at least since 2000. We had a wonderful kitty who died of complications due to diabetes. Since then, we vowed to feed our cats like we feed us... home made with ingredients we know where they come from. We have always gotten our cats from rescue sites until this past June, almost a year ago, of 2016, a skinny Tom Cat found our porch couch to spend the night. When I woke to greet the day, there he was and was demanding to come in the kitty door! So, I took him to the garage, feed him and waited for him to leave. He didn't. That night he got another meal and a look over and a bit of a snuggly time. He was a horrid mess. All sores, absesses, so skinny, dirty and smelly from the pus. But for some reason we knew he had picked us. The door was always open, he could have left at any time over the course of his first 3 days. The 4th day he went to the vet and got shots and drugs and another appointment date a week later. It was at the second appointment we found out he is SNAP positive for both FeLV/FIV.
I panicked. We have an outdoor enclosure for our cats and we CAN NOT expose them to a FeLV/FIV cat. We called shelters everywhere with in 500 miles of our home... no one would take him because of the FIV.

We were told to feed him canned cat food because of the NO RAW recommendations for Immune system compromised cats. So we got organic, human food grade cat food for him and he seemed to do wonderful. We even gave some to our other cats as treats. Then this past month, he had a turn in health. His Stomatitis flared up that had been under control and his injured bone/muscle aches came back. We tested his blood/urine and his PH was way off. Cat need to be acid and raw diet keeps them acid. We knew that raw diet would not cause urinary tract issues or diabetes and we had hoped that the premium cat foods would match this but the DON'T.

So... he's on raw. We buy him organic thighs with bone and drumsticks. We grind the thighs to make the raw and make bone broth out of the drumsticks so he has a wonderful broth to go with his raw food. In two days of 6 raw meals his PH was back to 6 and he was acid again. His bladder ultra sound showed signs of the floating plaque that becomes the customization so many male cat owners fear and in a week his bladder was clear.

I would rather him battle the bacteria he was created to battle as a carnivore than to have him battle the canned cat food that is more human food then cat food. And as for dry... I hate it all but we do give them some so long as it is N&D brand. He is a HUGE Tom Cat about 4 years old. Someone loved him very much and for one reason or another ended up on his own and looking for a new home. He weighs 16 pounds and doesn't have a bit of fat on him. With the can food I had to count calories to make sure he did not go over the 250/300 calories he needs to stay his normal size. With the raw, he can eat until full because his energy is balanced and he uses the raw like a NASCAR burns the 98 octane!

FYI... cat and dog food, when not made to human food grade can be made from meat that is sprayed with charcoal dust to make it usless for human food. Because the charcoal dust is so fine the meat is made completely unfit for human consumption. This meat is then sent to animal food manufactures. The Great American DENATURANT Charcoal is what most pet food if made from. Dead, sick, cannot stand on their own, ulcerous, or disfigured animals upon arrival to the slaughter house are "marked" for pet food by this inky paint. If that is safer than a raw diet... yeh enough said.

When he dies, he at least lived, ate and enjoyed life like a cat!
G-d willing, he will live a wonderful life into a grand old age. Amahn