Totally confused - best diet for a young male cat?

Hello,

I read around online and on the nutrition/health forums on this site. I adopted a five month old kitten about a month ago and I'm trying to figure out the best diet for him. I thought grain-free was a given, but after reading that long post from a few months ago, I'm not so sure.

He has been on BB Wilderness and Wellness Core, but both were too rich for him and gave him loose stools (BB more than Core). He came to us on Iams and was fine, so we are going back to that before we try something new. My main question is - what makes a cat food "too rich" for a cat? We were thinking of trying EVO next, but that is 50% protein (as opposed to the 40-45 range), so is that "richer"?

Another thing I took away from reading around was that canned/wet food is important. I have no idea where to start with that. The vet tech said that canned food can give them diarrhea, which we already have lol. Any input on that?

Ideally I'd like to put him on a high quality dry food and mix canned food in with that... but I have no idea if he could to that without developing loose stools. Ahhh, confusing!

Thanks for any input!

Katie

Katherine, I can't give you any advise as I'm in a very similar situation as you and my head is spinning as well.

My 4 month old kitty is on baby food right now for her very runny stool (she kept getting it on her legs ) and Bene-bac alone didn't help. She's almost back to normal now.

I just want to wish you good luck

Haha, yep! I just read your post below and that sounds very familiar! I called a specialty pet food store and they said that they had received a lot of complaints about loose stool and lots of gas from owners who fed Wilderness and Wellness Core.

I'm thinking maybe it's time to look for something with the protein around 35%. I just need to figure out if that's what makes the food "rich". Good luck to you too!

Vets and vet techs really don't have any real training on pet nutrition, and the little bit they have are generally just sponsored by the pet food manufacturers that come by slinging a particular product to them, which they sell at high profit margins (like Hills).

Wet food does not give diarrhea, even when on 100% wet, there are plenty of cats with perfectly firm stools.

What causes diarrhea is upset stomach, which can be caused by a rapid transition from one type of food to another (wet to raw or dry to wet etc), by an ingredient (or multiple) that does not agree with the cat, by antibiotics, by worms, or by overfeeding for example.

We finally narrowed down that Blue Kitten Chicken gave Buttercup diarrhea, but Blue Wilderness worked like a champ for both my cats.

The part about some food being "too rich" is nonsense IMO, as if you compare them on a dry matter basis, most wet food is very high in protein % compared to most dry food (on average about 55% IIRC), and there are plenty of owners on the forum with cats eating exclusive quality wet with no loose stool issues.

Wet food is important as there are some studies that show that cats eating exclusively dry diets were not drinking enough on average to compensate for the lower moisture available in dry food. There are also studies though that demonstrate that cats fed dry diets or combination dry/wet suffered less incidents of dental disease. Even "expensive" dry with the best possible ingredients is quite inexpensive, and its far more practical to feed especially with an auto-feeder, so we keep some dry in rotation (2 wet meals 1 dry or on vacation then 2 dry meals 1 wet) with a good low carb wet for hydration.

There isn't a huge need to overthink it though. If the stools are firm and the cat appears to be healthy, that's all that really matters. Just like with people, there is no "one diet" that is the end-all-be-all, and I know health fitness freaks that are raw vegans and follow Atkins/SouthBeach alike, which are clearly polar opposites and yet can both work. I'd just follow the advice to avoid common allergens/cheap fillers like wheat, soy, corn, brewers rice, and aim for named meats rather than "mystery meat" or worse "mystery meat by-products".

Thank you! So maybe the Wellness Core isn't too rich and we just need to give it more time? He's been on it 100% for about a week and a half.

There may be an ingredient in Core that doesn't agree with your kitty. I'd probably stick w/ it a bit longer though, and introduce some kitten/all-life-stages wet food.

You don't want to create a dry food addict after all IMO, so its good to get them used to eating a variety of things. Worked with these two at least, as they'll eat almost anything.

If you'd like to get nutritional info from some of those who have studied it extensively, you can check out the Feline Nutrition Education Society's website (Feline-Nutrition.org), Dr. Pierson's site (CatInfo.org), or Dr. Hodgkins' site (YourDiabeticCat.com).

Kibble is not a good choice for cats for several reasons (as discussed on CatInfo.org and YourDiabeticCat.com and in greater detail on Feline-Nutrition.org). While feeding half canned / half dry lessons the harm kibble causes, it doesn't eliminate it. (And kibble doesn't clean a cat's teeth, far from it. Just as eating cookies and crackers coats our teeth with sticky residue and gummy slivers of food, so does kibble coat your cat's teeth.)

The best commercially-prepared, non-raw foods for cats are canned grain-free products. Those that are also veggie-, fruit- and / or fish-free are even better. If you search petfooddirect.com for "grain-free canned cat food" you will receive an extensive list of products which you can then compare for both ingredients and nutritional analysis (Feline-Nutrition.org has a good article on understanding pet food labels in their Nutrition section).

I also recommend offering your cats a rotation of different canned products. This will keep your kitty from becoming fixated on any one product (bad if they change or stop producing it) and insulate her a bit if any one of the products runs into a quality control issue.

It shouldn't be so frustrating and confusing to find a healthy cat food, but until the pet food industry puts feline health above the profit margin (a highly unlikely event), we must all be amateur sleuths on behalf of our furry family members.

Best regards.

AC

Auntie Crazie - so canned food should not cause diarrhea, as the vet tech thought? I was waiting to get him stable on a good dry food before I even thought about canned food because he is already not able to have totally firm stools.

If I were going to put my cat on an exclusively canned food diet, about how much more does that cost? The bags of dry food we were looking at were around $40 for the big, 12lb bag. Not sure how long that would last. I guess you can find canned food for around $1 a can, but you'd have to be switching between cans and what is on sale. Do you think he could handle a variety of wet foods without having diarrhea?

And, just out of curiosity, from what I've read the hierarchy of worst to best for feeding your cat would be:

Bad dry food
Good dry food
Good dry food and canned food
Canned food
Canned food and raw
Raw

Is that right?

Originally Posted by katherinel345

And, just out of curiosity, from what I've read the hierarchy of worst to best for feeding your cat would be:

Bad dry food
Good dry food
Good dry food and canned food
Canned food
Canned food and raw
Raw

Is that right?

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From the perspective of many, this would be spot-on correct. Some, however - including every expert in Feline Nutrition I've met so far - don't consider kibble a viable "food" at all and would remove it from the list entirely (and I agree with them).

To your previous question, canned food generally does not cause diarrhea, as it is far more digestible to the cat's body than is kibble. And you can easily rotate through canned products; in fact, I recommend it. Before I transitioned to raw, I was feeding my cats a rotation of 21 different foods, which meant every meal (and I always feed three times a day) was a different product.

I can't help you with price points, because they vary from region to region and from store to store.

AC

Originally Posted by katherinel345

And, just out of curiosity, from what I've read the hierarchy of worst to best for feeding your cat would be:

Bad dry food
Good dry food
Good dry food and canned food
Canned food
Canned food and raw
Raw

Is that right?

Click to expand...

It depends on who you ask. The US, Canadian, and British Veterinarian associations are strongly opposed to raw diets. Per the federal government, a large portion of poultry on the market is contaminated w/ salmonella for example, but it is fine when properly cooked. Cooked chicken cannot be fed to cats since it destroys the taurine in the meat which cats cannot synthesize and the bones would become brittle and a choking hazard. Raw food is not regulated by the AAFCO/FDA like commercial food, and it is possible and in fact likely that a random Joe or Jane attempting it would not feed a nutritionally complete or balanced diet without sufficient education.

If you check some other threads, you can see that there are canned food that are far higher carb than many brands of dry food, with various wheat, soy, corn fillers, with primary protein sources of unnamed meat by-products. Heck, Friskies has one recipe that's full of processed cheese. Anyone that says that any canned food is better than any dry food is feeding you a lie IMO.

Here is one of the largest real scientific nutrition studies performed to date that recommends that cats and dogs have SOME kibble in their diets for example: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/2021S.full

There is no consensus unfortunately, and nutrition is constantly changing and so what might be true about Friskies wet or Friskies dry food, has absolutely nothing to do with quality wet or quality dry foods. So take what evangelists say with a grain of salt IMO.

Complete data were obtained for 9074 cats and 29,702 dogs... Lymphadenopathy (80.8 vs. 42.4%), dental deposits (46.0 vs. 14.2%), and periodontal disease (69.7 vs. 33.2%) were significantly more often absent in cats fed dry food, compared with cats fed soft food. Differences in these parameters between cats fed mixed food and those fed soft food were also significant

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What everyone can agree on, including the sources linked to previously, is that it is not ideal to feed cats a high-carb high-fiber diet.

What is incorrectly stated, or at the very least very outdated information, is that ALL wet is lower carb/fiber than ALL dry food.

Examples below that show this is false:
Wellness Core Dry:
Protein: 47
Fat: 42
Carbs 11
Nature's Variety Raw Instinct Dry:
Protein: 45
Fat: 49
Carbs 7

vs

Hills Science Adult Wet:
Protein: 34
Fat: 33
Carbs 33
Royal Canin Calorie Control Wet:
Protein: 28
Fat: 44
Carbs 28

It is also false to say that dry food contains more veggies/grains/fillers or inferior protein sources than wet food, as it is not universally true as seen below:
Evo Turkey and Chicken Dry
Main Ingredients: Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas, Eggs, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors...
On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein 55%
Crude Fat 24%
Crude Fiber 2.2%

vs

Friskies Lamb and Rice Wet
Main ingredients: meat by-products, chicken, turkey, wheat gluten, lamb, rice, soy flour, corn starch-modified, artificial and natural flavors, salt...
On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein 50% (note quality and sources of protein)
Crude Fat 11%
Crude Fiber 8.3%

Oh yeah, haha, I guess I was just assuming high quality wet food. I didn't even consider the low quality wet food in there.

That would be nice if we could just transition him to a variety of high quality wet foods.

One more question - about how much canned food do you feed a five month old kitten? Do you just follow the feeding guidelines for the company or is there a general rule that works? I thought maybe 2, 3.3oz cans? Maybe it's double?

I saw one company that advised 2/3 of a 3oz can per 2 pounds for a kitten... so my 7 pound kitten would be eating more than 4 cans of cat food which seemed crazy.

Manufacturers usually err on the high side, but feed as much as the kitten will eat. You don't have to worry about them getting fat when they're growing and super energetic like that, that's why Wesley and Buttercup had kibble available 24x7 along w/ their wet feedings.

Just don't give them too much at once, as their eyes are usually bigger than their tummies and they WILL barf if you put too much wet food on a plate, lol!

Originally Posted by Ducman69

It depends on who you ask. The US, Canadian, and British Veterinarian associations are strongly opposed to raw diets.

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I'm surprised you'd post this, considering these are the same veterinarians you previously stated (and we all know) have little to no training in feline nutrition - and that little provided by pet food companies - not to mention the same veterinarians who earn kickbacks from selling the products manufactured by those very same pet food companies.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Per the federal government, a large portion of poultry on the market is contaminated w/ salmonella for example, but it is fine when properly cooked. Cooked chicken cannot be fed to cats since it destroys the taurine in the meat which cats cannot synthesize and the bones would become brittle and a choking hazard. Raw food is not regulated by the AAFCO/FDA like commercial food, and it is possible and in fact likely that a random Joe or Jane attempting it would not feed a nutritionally complete or balanced diet without sufficient education.

Click to expand...

This isn't a raw food discussion, but since you bring it up, any salmonella that happens to be in the human food chain is a threat to us, not to cats. They've evolved to deal with bacterial loads far in excess of anything that could possibly be encountered naturally, never mind what might happen to be in our food. And while feeding a balanced feline diet requires a little knowledge and commitment, it isn't rocket science - hundreds of people all over the world do it every day.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

If you check some other threads, you can see that there are canned food that are far higher carb than many brands of dry food, with various wheat, soy, corn fillers, with primary protein sources of unnamed meat by-products. Heck, Friskies has one recipe that's full of processed cheese. Anyone that says that any canned food is better than any dry food is feeding you a lie IMO.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. *shrug*

On the other hand, it's one thing to have an opinion, and entirely different to call everyone who disagrees with you a liar. Courtesy and respect can be - and frankly, should be - maintained while discussing those differences of opinion.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Here is one of the largest real scientific nutrition studies performed to date that recommends that cats and dogs have SOME kibble in their diets for example: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/2021S.full

There is no consensus unfortunately, and nutrition is constantly changing and so what might be true about Friskies wet or Friskies dry food, has absolutely nothing to do with quality wet or quality dry foods. So take what evangelists say with a grain of salt IMO.

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The study you linked to is supported / paid for by Iams maker Proctor and Gamble; the bias is self-evident.

Here's a study produced by folks who wanted to improve the dental health of zoo cats: Influence of diet consistency on periodontal disease in captive carnivores. That's a mission I can get behind, and results I can trust.

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Originally Posted by katherinel345

Oh yeah, haha, I guess I was just assuming high quality wet food. I didn't even consider the low quality wet food in there.

That would be nice if we could just transition him to a variety of high quality wet foods.

Click to expand...

Hopefully, you don't have any issues at all with him being finicky. If you do happen to run into trouble getting him to accept eating all canned, both Feline-Nutrition and CatInfo.org have good transition articles. Of course, you can always let us know and we'll be happy to offer tips.

Good luck with your little furbaby!

AC

The point was simple, there is no consensus and there are various opinions out there.

I would take a scientific study of thousands of domestic cats over the opinion of a few doctors on a totally different species of animal. I'm also curious how you believe they would be able to falsify data on such a tremendous scale, and how exactly you imagine that P&G is biased against wet food considering they manufacture just as much wet food with likely higher profit margins considering the price difference.

I am not a dry food evangelist. I am not a wet food crusader. I'm just trying to keep the discussion grounded in a semblance of reality with balanced information. There are kitties that have lived very long and healthy lives on all wet and all dry, there's no need for exaggeration or FUD. No need for excitement, there are plenty of great choices out there and no one right answer.

Auntie Crazy,

Do you feed your cats pre-made raw diets or make your own. It looks like the pre-made stuff would cost about $4 a day...

Originally Posted by katherinel345

Auntie Crazy,

Do you feed your cats pre-made raw diets or make your own. It looks like the pre-made stuff would cost about $4 a day...

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I don't actually make anything for my cats. I just purchase different meat products and feed them according to a schedule so that at the end of each week, the cats have eaten about 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% kidney. Kinda the same way we balance our own diets.

This costs me about half the price of feeding an all canned diet, and the food product choices are under my control so I don't have to worry about any pet food company quality control issues; exactly how I like it.

If you're interested in the different ways to feed raw, you might like this thread: Natural Diet Information Resources. And this thread has a couple of different menus, including my own: What does your menu look like?

Best regards.

AC

Thank you! That is helpful. So is it ok to buy meat at the grocery store? I thought I read somewhere that it wasn't..