What brands of canned food are good?

minka · Aug 29, 2011

Originally Posted by ScottP

My personal criteria for canned cat food selection is that it does NOT contain any BHA, BHT, ethoxyquin, carrageenan, or any type of fruit or vegetable whole, starch or gluten (corn, wheat, rice, soy, barley, etc.) and lists a muscle meat as the primary ingredient. By "muscle meat" I mean the first ingredient listed should be something like chicken, turkey, salmon, etc. and not "chicken by-products", or "chicken meal" or even "water necessary to..." which I see on a lot of canned food as the primary ingredient.

Now some people will say that you should avoid any type of "by-product" all together, but foods that do not have any by-products are generally much higher in fat content than foods that do contain by-products. For this reason I don't mind by-products as long as they are not the primary ingredient.

For instance the first 7 ingredients of Fancy Feast Cod, Sole & Shrimp Feast are: "Cod, liver, meat by-products, fish, fish broth, sole, shrimp", now compare that to first 7 ingredients of 9-Lives Seafood Platter: "Meat by-products, water sufficient for processing, poultry by-products, fish, chicken, calcium carbonate, guar gum". Notice that in the Fancy Feast by-products don't appear until the third ingredient, and good muscle and organ meat are 5 of the first 7 ingredients. Now looking at the 9-Lives you see that by-products are the very first ingredient and then water is the next ingredient, followed by more by-product. This means 9-Lives is a much lower quality food. Also every flavor of 9-Lives I have seen contains carrageenan which can cause inflammation in your cat.

One more thing just because one flavor of a particular brand is good, does NOT mean that all flavors are just as good. For instance some flavors of Fancy Feast do have by-products as a first ingredient OR contain corn, soy, or other plant based protein which is not very good for your cat. I do not buy these flavors. The bottom line is learn to read the ingredients and label information to make smart choices that you can afford.

I see where you are coming from with the whole by-products thing because technically cats would eat All of their prey and not just the meat, but the problem is that we don't know What is in the by-products. Is it animals that were already dead? It is pets? Is it zoo animals? How much of what? They really can get away with almost anything by using that term.

Also Arlyn is right, there's nothing wrong with chicken meal, it just means it's been concentrated so if you see: Lamb, chicken meal, corn, etc; chicken is actually the main source of protein in that food.

What bothers me about the fancy feast is the lack of Named sources. It says liver is second (which is too much if I'm not mistaken), but not from what animal it came from. (Or animals.)
Meat by-products basically means anything under the sun.
Fish means any kind of fish. And fish broth.. well I'm sure I know what it means but I'm not sure I want to know.

ducman69 · Aug 30, 2011

By-products are more or less everything under the sun short of feces, and is more loosely regulated. These are generally lower nutrition and higher ash, since its not just organs but feet and heads with beaks and a lot of blood and bone and what have you. I also don't believe there is really much nutrition in most of the organs, and while an exception is the liver (vitA, iron, chol) for example, I'd rather have "liver" as an actual named ingredient.

scottp · Aug 30, 2011

I understand wanting "named" by-products and liver but lets step back a bit.

Take a look at Binky's Cat food nutrition info.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

Look at all of these so called "premium" brands most people recommend such as Wellness, Nutro or what ever. Nearly all of these have protein in the 30% range while fat content is in the 50%-60% range depending on flavor.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html
The Fancy Feast Cod, Sole, & Shrimp feast on the other hand is 52% protein and only 46% fat content.

This is why my personal philosophy is that unknown source MEAT based protein is better for my cat than known source meat based fat.

furryfriends50 · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by ScottP

I understand wanting "named" by-products and liver but lets step back a bit.

Take a look at Binky's Cat food nutrition info.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

Look at all of these so called "premium" brands most people recommend such as Wellness, Nutro or what ever. Nearly all of these have protein in the 30% range while fat content is in the 50%-60% range depending on flavor.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html
The Fancy Feast Cod, Sole, & Shrimp feast on the other hand is 52% protein and only 46% fat content.

This is why my personal philosophy is that unknown source MEAT based protein is better for my cat than known source meat based fat.

I believe you are mistaken. Binky's cat food chart does not list the foods on a dry matter basis, which is how I believe you think it is. What it lists is the percentege of calories that comes from protein/fat/carbs. Fat is much higher in calories than protein, so it is listed much higher according to that chart.

scottp · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

I believe you are mistaken. Binky's cat food chart does not list the foods on a dry matter basis, which is how I believe you think it is. What it lists is the percentege of calories that comes from protein/fat/carbs. Fat is much higher in calories than protein, so it is listed much higher according to that chart.

Yes this is per kcal. I should have been more specific. I think Protein adds 3.5-4 calories per gram while fat adds 8.5-9 calories per gram. The fact still remains that the premium foods have a much higher fat to protein ratio than the mid-grade foods that use by-products. This means the cats will be taking in more calories from fat than from proteins in those premium foods were as in the foods that do contain by-products (but NOT any grains) allows for a higher calorie from protein intake.

furryfriends50 · Aug 30, 2011

However, you are also looking at just the guarenteed analysis. All it has is the miniumum and maxiumum amounts that are allowed in the food. In the case of Merrick, for example, they list the protein as 10% guareteed. However, I asked them for the as fed basis for their foods, and some of their flavors are actually 14% protein on an as fed basis.

As Auntie Crazy said, cats should have a fairly high amount of their food as fat. Just as there are no special mice in the wild for kittens vs. cats, there are no fat free mice either

minka · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by ScottP

Yes this is per kcal. I should have been more specific. I think Protein adds 3.5-4 calories per gram while fat adds 8.5-9 calories per gram. The fact still remains that the premium foods have a much higher fat to protein ratio than the mid-grade foods that use by-products. This means the cats will be taking in more calories from fat than from proteins in those premium foods were as in the foods that do contain by-products (but NOT any grains) allows for a higher calorie from protein intake.

Scott, believe me when I say that when I first dived into cat food nutrition and tried to understand everything at once, I really got my wires crossed. I had the same kind of enthusiasm you've got right now; a mix of horror and new-found determination to spread the word to everyone you know. But just believe me when I say that we know what we are talking about when we say that these premium brands are indeed better than foods such as fancy feast. It may come out that they are getting more calories from the fat, but that is perfectly okay. And just as you don't want to feed grains/corn as a protein source, you also do not want to feed meat waste products aka meat by-products if you can avoid it.
Like I said, I see myself in your enthusiasm, but for now, it may be better to focus on helping yourself because you don't want to end up giving false information like I did and feeling guilty that you may have lead people astray.

arlyn · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

And just as you don't want to feed grains/corn as a protein source, you also do not want to feed meat waste products aka meat by-products if you can avoid it.

I'd like to also add that chemical colors and flavors are very bad too.

Chemicals build up in the liver and kidneys, and can to lead early renal failure.

As I said previously, I'd rather feed a food with by-products than feed one with chemical preservatives, colors or flavors.
By-products in this case are the lesser of two evils.

minka · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by Arlyn

I'd like to also add that chemical colors and flavors are very bad too.

Chemicals build up in the liver and kidneys, and can to lead early renal failure.

As I said previously, I'd rather feed a food with by-products than feed one with chemical preservatives, colors or flavors.
By-products in this case are the lesser of two evils.

I only feed foods without any of these so I don't have to pick a lesser of evils.

arlyn · Aug 30, 2011

I don't either, it was just an example

scottp · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

you also do not want to feed meat waste products aka meat by-products if you can avoid it.

A large part of what is considered "meat by-products" (things like liver, kidneys hearts, poultry skin and fat) also ends up in human foods, such as hot dogs, Vienna sausages, bologna, and other potted meats.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/0...y-are-they.htm

minka · Aug 30, 2011

Originally Posted by ScottP

A large part of what is considered "meat by-products" (things like liver, kidneys hearts, poultry skin and fat) also ends up in human foods, such as hot dogs, Vienna sausages, bologna, and other potted meats.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/0...y-are-they.htm

Who says that I eat any of these foods or that they are good for you?

anita1216 · Sep 1, 2011

Who says that I eat any of these foods or that they are good for you?

There are many people who do eat the types of foods Scott mentioned and manage doing so. Myself Im a veg head.

I always go back to balance and what you can reasonably afford. There is also the issue of what the cat(s) will or will not eat. Kind of pointless to buy food that you end of trashing now isnt it? Do your research, educate yourself and move froward from that point. There will be different opinions of what is good and what is bad. Obvious junk-Friskies, 9-Lives and many of the grocery store products. Yet in that mess there are some bright rays of hope and some foods for the budget minded.

I always laugh at those who want to get high and mighty about what they consider junk and how they would never feed it-thats cool. I had a cat live to just short of her 20th birthday, she ate mostly "junk" brands *shrugs* ymmv. What works for one animal many not work for another.

minka · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by anita1216

There are many people who do eat the types of foods Scott mentioned and manage doing so. Myself Im a veg head.
Being able to "manage" and a food being good for you are two totally different things. As a vegetarian you should know this.

I always go back to balance and what you can reasonably afford. There is also the issue of what the cat(s) will or will not eat. Kind of pointless to buy food that you end of trashing now isnt it? Do your research, educate yourself and move froward from that point. There will be different opinions of what is good and what is bad. Obvious junk-Friskies, 9-Lives and many of the grocery store products. Yet in that mess there are some bright rays of hope and some foods for the budget minded.

I always laugh at those who want to get high and mighty about what they consider junk and how they would never feed it-thats cool. I had a cat live to just short of her 20th birthday, she ate mostly "junk" brands *shrugs* ymmv. What works for one animal many not work for another.

Once again, just as many people may live a long life on meat filled diets doesn't mean that they were 100% healthy or that they couldn't be healthier. Some people (and cats) have good genes which allow them to eat junk their whole lives and not feel the effects, but that doesn't mean the diet was good.

anita1216 · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

Once again, just as many people may live a long life on meat filled diets doesn't mean that they were 100% healthy or that they couldn't be healthier. Some people (and cats) have good genes which allow them to eat junk their whole lives and not feel the effects, but that doesn't mean the diet was good.

I assure you I know exactly whats good for me and what is not. I find your tone insulting. I also did not suggest the diet was good or healthy, just anecdotal evidence, something you tend to use alot of.
I don't know that its good genes, missing a "bullet" is more likely the case. More often than not, people and animals that have an unhealthy diet suffer the ill effects.

ducman69 · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by ScottP

A large part of what is considered "meat by-products" (things like liver, kidneys hearts, poultry skin and fat) also ends up in human foods, such as hot dogs, Vienna sausages, bologna, and other potted meats.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/0...y-are-they.htm

Skin and fat fall under "chicken" ingredient, so no worries there. And there is nothing wrong with liver/kidneys but the point that was trying to be made is that it is much better to have these as listed ingredients.

If you want liver in the diet, look for foods that contain say chicken liver or lamb liver and the like. Otherwise, with "meat by-products" when you look at the AAFCO definition, these are very relaxed and you're getting non-nutritious small intestines, feet, heads, beaks, and from less regulated sources (can include 4D animals for example, unlike an ingredient like "chicken").

So there is a big difference from saying "I think some organs in food is great" to "I'm happy with the regulation of the ingredient defined as meat by-products".

milu · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by Ducman69

(can include 4D animals for example, unlike an ingredient like "chicken").

Sorry I have to ask, what does '4D' mean?

auntie crazy · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by MiLu

Sorry I have to ask, what does '4D' mean?

Dead, diseased, dying and disabled. Includes - but isn't limited to - livestock, roadkill and, at some rendering facilities, euthanized animals from shelters and veterinarian clinics.

AC

minka · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by anita1216

I assure you I know exactly whats good for me and what is not. I find your tone insulting. I also did not suggest the diet was good or healthy, just anecdotal evidence, something you tend to use alot of.
I don't know that its good genes, missing a "bullet" is more likely the case. More often than not, people and animals that have an unhealthy diet suffer the ill effects.

If you knew that hotdogs and the like were not good or healthy, why bother arguing for them, saying that people manage? Why bother to mention that you had a cat that lived 20 years on junk food?

I just don't understand why you would be on the side of ScottP, when your vegetarian lifestyle should indicate that you are very aware of the effects of food on health. It doesn't make sense.

milu · Sep 2, 2011

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Dead, diseased, dying and disabled. Includes - but isn't limited to - livestock, roadkill and, at some rendering facilities, euthanized animals from shelters and veterinarian clinics.

AC

Oh YUCK! I'll be going to the library tomorrow. I will make sure to look for the book you recommended in the other thread, although I'm not sure I'm ready for what I will find out

What brands of canned food are good?

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