One of the cats is defecating outside the box...

We have two cats. Skyy (the little princess) and Brownie (the large brown cat).

A while back I put an entry in here about how the little princess wouldn't eat "used" food (both their wet food and dry food are Science Diet)... So, we started adding a little tuna to the wet food the cats get twice a day, and that seemed to HELP. She'd more often eat the wet food. Brownie always eats the wet food eagerly, and when Skyy turns up her nose, Brownie eats Skyy's food too.... These are small amounts of food - more a treat than a meal, so Brownie's not growing to the size of a great dane.....

BUT, and I admit we're putting events together and deciding there's a connection, one of the cats is now defecating outside the litter box. She consistently uses a throw rug near the back door. They both appear to be urinating in the box, but one is defecating outside it..

When collected, the feces seems very dry and hard. The feces SEEM to be "large" so we're presuming it's coming from Brownie, but it only happens at night, so we haven't actually caught anyone. Noone has not used the litter box during the day that I can find.

This is recent behavior, we believe starting shortly after we routinely started adding tuna to the food.

Both cats have been to the vet, and pronounced happy and healthy, and both are about 4-years old. We've always had a large Littermaid in an open but sheltered spot, and use a platform with catch basin so the contents get dumped every day. The box is clean but we also clean it regularly...

I'm not sure what other information to add to help with this diagnosis...

SO, first question - is adding tuna to their wet food a cause of the hard, dry feces?

If so, is it reasonable to think that the cat is constipated, and associates the litter box with a painful movement and is therefore going outside the box? (I read the notes in here on going outside the box and that seemed like a common cause).

I always thought adding tuna (the little princess prefers Chicken Of The Sea, I'm not kidding) would make their feces softer because of the fish oil, but am I incorrect?

We're going to stop the tuna, and today we'll pick up some Petromalt or other hairball stuff to mix in their wet food - the notes said that would help soften the feces.

We'll also add another litter box to the area where she's been going...

What else do we need to do to get this behavior corrected?

I let this one slide for a while because I thought we could possibly get this handled. It looks like we may need some ideas...

As I said in the original post, we added a second litter box in the laundry room where the cat is going on the throw rug. We stopped putting tuna in their food. We started adding Laxatone to their food.

So far, none of that has helped. They appear to use BOTH litter boxes, but somebody is still going outside the litter box at night.

We're at the point of removing the throw rug and putting down papers in the spot where it's happening, but we need a better solution long term....

So, I need some ideas from the experts in here...

There was no problem for a couple days, but yesterday morning, and again this morning, there was (were?) feces outside the box. Since I was up first, I picked them up and they were rock hard - I actually know this because I stepped on one of them and they're definitely hard... Since it happened after we went to bed last night, it means they've been there a maximum of 6 - 7 hours, so that seems like a problem to me...

We cut the tuna. We added Laxatone to their food, but my wife told me she ran out 3 or 4 days ago. We'll get some more.. My wife walked in while I was writing this and I asked her if the problem started again AFTER she ran out of Laxatone - it DID...... So, I know it's purely anecdotal and thus suspect, but there was a problem, we added Laxatone, there was an improvement, we ran out of Laxatone, and a day later we have the problem again... We'll get more today!

The other "problem" that may be connected is that both cats seem to be eating more of the dry food and sometimes ignoring the wet food.

But, as far as water - we have a fountain, but the cats didn't like it. They'd look at the moving water but wouldn't drink. On the OTHER hand, they both drink quite regularly from a saucer we placed in one sink that gets filled from the filtered hard water. They also have a regularly (twice a day at least) filled stainless steel water bowl, but the little one ignores that in favor of the fun of driving my wife crazy by sitting in the sink and drinking from the saucer! The larger cat DOES occasionally drink from the bowl.

I thought the fountain would be a big hit, but neither of them ever (that we saw) drank from it, and I didn't like it because it was harder to clean and was plastic (I read about using stainless steel for all water and such). And, since the reservoir tank always completely filled (and I mean very full) the open part, picking it up to clean it always resulted in spilling water and making a mess.

Anyhow, we'll get some more Laxatone and try that. And get some pumpkin and see what the house princesses think of that.....

>I scanned back through and I may have missed this but is it possible the cat is actually in the box but overhanging so the feces fall in the floor?

No, the droppings are further away from the box than the cats are long!

We got a new supply of Laxatone and tried it in their wet food last night, but since it was "USED FOOD" the spoiled little house princess wouldn't eat hers. So, Brownie ate it. If necessary we'll do what I've heard people doing with Petromalt, and put it on the front of her leg(s) where she'll lick it off to clean her leg - at least I THINK she'll clean it off. Never know with Skyy until I try things!

>The problem with stainless steel water bowls is that some cats don't like >the taste of it. One of mine actually prefers it but the other three never >use that bowl. I like ceramic as it's easy to clean and tends to stay a bit >cooler, a concern here in Georgia, even indoors!

I don't think I ever thought about the stainless steel problem. Just knew plastic wasn't a good idea. We can certainly try a ceramic bowl...

Speaking of plastic - I got advice from people earlier to put the water fountain back, but if plastic is bad for water for cats, and the water needs to be fresh at least daily (I presume, since I wouldn't want to drink "old" water), how do you manage the fountain? As I said, we found that it was impossible to unplug and carry the fountain across the kitchen to the sink without spilling water since the fountain base was full right to the lip... I suggested to my wife that we put the fountain on the counter right next to the sink - since the cats apparently prefer drinking from there, AND it'd be really easy to clean and refill..... Unfortunately, that got me "THE LOOK"...

>If you want to add more water, consider getting low sodium chicken broth >and giving it as a treat. I do anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th a cup about >once a day. You can cut it with water if you don't want them to have a lot >of it.

Ah, we use organic, low sodium, chicken broth all the time for cooking so it would be easy enough to mix a little with their wet food, or even put some out separately... Thanks for the advice, we'll keep working on it.

Now THAT's a great idea! I have a decorative fountain that's in my home office. It doesn't spray water, its the kind that the water runs down the rough face of a block and makes nice noise. I use it all the time in the winter when it's ugly outside and it's really pleasant.....

BUT, now that you've mentioned it, I can't keep the cats OUT OF THE THING! Every time I turn around I have a cat drinking the water out of my fountain. Even though it wasn't intended as a cat fountain, I still changed the water about every other day...... SO, maybe I should just clean it out (it's been sitting this summer), and put in fresh water, and I"ll be able to see the two spoiled house princesses drinking!

Great Idea!!

My wife got some new Laxatone and we got some chicken broth. It APPEARS they don't like the laxatone in their food, BUT, I had the idea the other night to put a little chicken broth over their food like a sauce...... Instant gobbling by BOTH cats....... Ate their food, slurped the broth, made clean plates...

ALSO, I followed the advice on the stainless steel bowl and replacing it was a ceramic one..... I couldn't believe it - my wife took a not-plastic, not metal bowl of some sort, put in some fresh, filtered water, and BOTH cats immediately ran over and drank a bunch..... SO, we're now replacing the steel with some kind of porcelain or ceramic or something that'll look nice and provide a nice, cool drink......

AND, 24 hours after going back to putting the Laxatone in their food, no more feces outside the litter box...

The only downside is for the cats - now that we're using a little broth with their food instead of the Laxatone, the cats won't eat Laxatone... SO, my wife now grabs them when they've finished eating and rubs a small amount of Laxatone on each of their front feet......... Which, of course, they immediately lick off, but it annoys them mightily! Brownie (aka the "large normal cat") stomped into my office a couple days ago, mrowfed at me - not a meow, more a feline swear word, and stomped off to her hiding place behind the computer base unit in the far corner under the desk....

BUT, at the moment, everybody appears to be using the litter boxes, eating their food, slurping their broth, swigging water, and I'm going to activate my fountain to see if that'll provide some extra water...

I'm not sure if we're just diligent or if we've been conditioned to having our lives run by two small mammals, but we both believe if you're going to have companion animals, you have an obligation to do your best to take care of them. And if having multiple litter boxes (ours are Littermaids with a platform and a removable tray underneath so they're extremely easy to keep clean) and a ceramic bowl, and pouring a little broth on their food is all it takes to keep them happy and purring, that's a pretty small price.

Hopefully, things will continue working and we'll be able to remove the rest of the newspapers we have down on the floor!

What's the likelihood that one of our cats is just NUTS?

Went for two WEEKS with everybody using the litter box. We were gone for 5 days with the cats (we pull a small 5th wheel) and they were perfect - used the litter box in the trailer consistently....

Got home a week ago and they were fine.

Now, for the last two nights, someone's gone outside the box........ RIGHT NEXT TO THE BOX!

BUT, on the good side - BOY IS CHICKEN BROTH A BIG HIT! Pour some broth on their wet food and they both charge over to eat!

We'll try putting the newspaper back down and see if that helps, but I'm starting to think they're just goofy!

They were at the vet in June for their annual checkup, but I could take them in to see if there's some obvious-to-the-vet reason for the behavior?

Pardon my screaming, but AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!

OK, things were fine for several days. Now someone is going outside the box again. We put down newspapers by the box and for two nights whoever is going when on the newspapers right next to the box.

For the last two nights they've gone farther from the box away from the newspapers....

The only thing we can think of to try is to contain them in the small, laundry area with the litter box at night, and see if we can get them "reprogrammed"...
We can put a couple cat beds in there, and of course some food and water, and cover the area with newspaper (or something else if y'all have ideas) and close the door over night.

I hate to do that 'cause they're used to wandering around at night, and coming in and sleeping on our bed, and generally being a nuisance at 4:30 in the morning when one sticks their nose on my nose to wake me up for an ear scratch or belly rub, but I don't know what else to try...

SO, I need ideas..... We've got laxatone, we're putting broth on their wet food - which they're really liking, we've got two little boxes, they're clean, and on and on....

OH, and I put fresh water in the fountain on my desk, and turned it on, and both cats periodically stop by to have a drink from the decorative fountain - sure they wouldn't drink from the CAT fountain in the kitchen, but they'll drink from MY fountain in the office!!!!!!!!

So, HELP... I need ideas........

Thanks for the suggestion. I've not heard of Cat Attract Litter, but we're going to take both cats to the vet this afternoon...

And, yes, we'll be retrieving some of the applicable material to take along with us! Are y'all SURE they meatloaves with feet are worth this much trouble?
Just kidding... I'm HOPING if there's a problem it's easily fixable, but at the same time I'll feel really bad if one of the princesses is sick and we didn't realize it...

When I spoke to the vet, I blamed it on her!!!!!! When the cats were in for their annual checkups in June, she asked me if they consistently used their litter box... I answered that in the 4 years we've had them, they've ALWAYS used their litter box - I don't know of any time when EITHER of them didn't...

A couple weeks later this started! She jinxed us!

Well, $175 poorer, we're not much wiser!

Cats went to vet. No infections, nothing in stool, no problems found. Vet is "reluctant" to go with constipation.

Best we came up with was to mix a little Miralax into the broth that's going on the wet food so the cats each get about 1/4 tsp per day...

I hesitate to ask, but is the dearth of recent recommendations an indication that we've done most of the reasonable things? And now have to proceed to something draconian like closing the cats in the confined laundry area at night until they consistently user the litter box?

A note: Stupid human tricks have NOT been wiped out.....

As I said earlier, one of the things we got yesterday was Miralax. It's the same stool softener/laxative that humans use when they're going in for a colonoscopy... And we all know what the results of that usage is.....

SO, we're supposed to get 1/4 teaspoon into each cat each day. My wife said she was giving about a teaspoon of broth with each feeding, so I mixed accordingly... UNFORTUNATELY, it turns out tonight when we measured that she's ACTUALLY giving each of them approximately TWO TABLESPOONS of broth... And on top of that, Skyy turned up her nose at the broth, so Brownie at BOTH plates of food... FOR TWO MEALS........ SO, for two meals as near as I can figure, poor Brownie got something like 8 - 12 TIMES the amount of Miralax she was supposed to have.......

WITH PREDICTABLE RESULTS! Needless to say, the droppings this afternoon WERE NO LONGER HARD! Unfortunately, nor were they in the litter box. She did, however, politely use the newspaper NEXT to the litter box. So, tonight, NO Miralax with their broth. We'll hopefully let it work it's way out of her system overnight.

So, the moral of the story - make SURE the mixer and the dispenser are both talking the same language and dosage!

And this evening we started confining them. They have beds, food, water, scratching post, Feliway in a plug-in thing to give them good feelings, cat attract powder in their litter box, and I KNOW it's being done to help them, but I still feel like the most horrible human on the planet. Looking at sad, meowing cat faces on the other side of the glass in the french door is a killer.

Things have gone from bad to worse......

Yesterday afternoon, for the first time as far as we know, one of the cats urinated outside the litter box. She went on the papers next to the litter box, but we've never had either cat do this before.

Last night they were confined in the laundry area again, and someone defecated outside the litter box AND urinated on one of the pieces of aluminum foil we used to (theoretically) keep them out of areas of the laundry area...

I just got off the phone with the vet, and they told me we HAVE to determine which cat has the problem. So, we'll confine them in separate rooms and see if we can find out who's got the problem. At that point, the vet can get a urine sample and see if there's a urinary tract problem...

I'm fervently hoping there's a medical problem, but we need ANY ideas people have. We're going to try a different litter, pick up a couple disposable litter boxes and confine the cats separately, but I've read too many stories about people putting cats down because they can't get this problem under control. I know they're "just cats" (as I've been told), but they're part of the family and we've got to find out what's causing this and get it addressed...

So, any ideas?

Pami, thanks for the idea. At this point we have three boxes for the two cats... The one in the kitchen is being ignored. The one in the laundry room and the one in the bathroom are being used.

We went back to the vet with both cats Monday, to have them checked for urinary infections or anything. Both came home with a second clean bill of health.

I was HOPING we were making progress since I saw Brownie urinate in the box Sunday night, and she didn't seem to have any problem. I also saw Skyy defecate in the box Monday, and handled some of the dropping (with tissues) to check them. They were soft but not runny... So, I surmised from that that the new food "Hills Prescription i/d" and/or the addition of the Miralax to their chicken broth is working......

Everything's been good for a couple days... Then, this morning someone urinated in front of the box in the laundry room... Everything is on a big plastic sheet and whoever went, went a foot in front of the litter box. So, it appears that we STILL have a problem......

Oh, the box in the bathroom has Arm & Hammer litter with no Cat Attract powder, the one in the laundry room has Tidy Cat and Cat Attract, which my wife doesn't like at all... She can really smell it, and says it smells rather musty and pungent... I can't smell it as much.

The box in the kitchen that they're now ignoring also has Tidy Cat and Cat Attract powder...

So, anyhow, we're planning to move the box from the bathroom to my office since it pretty much fills the whole bathroom floor and I have more room in my office. My office is also where the cats hang out almost all day.

SO, keep the thoughts and ideas coming. We're not finding any reason for why they're still not using the boxes consistently...

As near as I can tell, Skyy hasn't heckled Brownie in or around the boxes... It's certainly possible since Skyy is goofy and periodically gets full of energy and chases Brownie around. Of course, I've also seen Brownie chase Skyy around or even give her a thump on the head (which I personally think is poetic justice and well deserved, and no cause for concern since Brownie was declawed when we rescued her).

At this point, we're baffled. We had a urination Wednesday afternoon, then NO problems until Saturday. Everybody used a litterbox. Saturday afternoon, one of the cats urinated next to the box in the laundry room again. She always goes on the big piece of plastic, but why?

We've continued confining them at night, and Brownie definitely used the litter box since there was both urine and feces in the box this morning.

We now have FIVE litter boxes. Laundry room, kitchen, downstairs bath, my office, and one of the upstairs baths. All but the downstairs bath are Littermaids, but they are all big ones except the one in the laundry room. That one's a small one. The bathroom where we've been confining Brownie at night is just a regular box...

Do y'all really think there's a problem between Brownie and the Littermaids? At this point I wouldn't rule anything out, but what would cause her to suddenly not like them after 4 years of using the one in the kitchen faithfully? I can say I have not seen her use the Littermaid anywhere there is one, even though a couple of them are very new.

The one in my office is an LM Elite, which is very large. I've seen Skyy use it, but so far I haven't seen Brownie use it. At this point, everyone is in here with me, including food, water, toys, giant cat tree, two cat beds, and two cats!

It's my hope that I'll be able to see and catch Brownie if she starts to go outside the box, and/or see her using the box. If it's some kind of fear thing, or she associates the Littermaid with some kind of problem, hopefully this'll get her past it... I'm also thinking about replacing the non-Littermaid in the downstairs bath the one of the big Littermaids so at night when she's confined she'll hopefully use it and stop being afraid if that's the problem.

If it becomes ABSOLUTELY necessary, we can replace ALL the Littermaids with regular boxes, but that's going to be a really tough sell with my wife. All our units are on platforms with catch pans underneath so they're always clean, and very easy to remove the droppings from.

BUT, if all else fails, I'll substitute regular boxes and put the Littermaids in the basement and see if THAT fixes the problem... If we get to that point, I'll need a recommendation 'cause Skyy, who's about at big as a minute, LOVES TO DIG....... And BOY, can she move some litter! All the Littermaids have a "digger guard" on the front to minimize the amount of litter she throws all over, and the non-littermaid in the bathroom regularly has to be moved and all the litter put back in the box from where it's been thrown onto the plastic sheet underneath! I've seen regular boxes with high sides on 3 sides, but they seem REALLY small, and Skyy will undoubtedly make a huge mess throwing the litter out the remaining hole... So, just in case we HAVE to go that way, anyone have a recommendation for a box that'll hopefully keep the litter in?

OR, OF COURSE, any OTHER recommendations... We're trying everything we can think of so keep any ideas coming.

Thanks for the replies.... At this point I'm completely flummoxed!

We went to the vet and had them checked. Everything was fine. Tried to determine WHICH cat was not using the box. When that failed (we confined them in separate rooms, and of course, both used the litter boxes faithfully),
we took BOTH back for urine tests.

The tests came out fine - good pH, everything great, no crystals that they could see. They DID find a "small" amount of bacteria, but the vet believed it was not indicative of a problem and probably came from the testing. BUT, to be on the safe side, we gave them both the injection that does the UTI fix and all that...

We've continued to confine both at night, Brownie in the bathroom with a regular box, Skyy in the laundry area with a Littermaid.....

LAST NIGHT, we replaced the regular box in the bathroom with one of the new, huge Littermaids (if my wife ever adopts a puma it'll have a place to go), and confined Brownie with it. She used the Littermaid fine.

Today, again (started this yesterday), I have both cats here in the office with me, their food, water, a fountain, huge cat tree in front of the window, toys, and a plushy cat bed for each... And another of the big new Littermaids... This morning, Brownie used it twice once to defecate and once to urinate. No reluctance or fear or stress that I could see. Just jumped in and did her thing......

So, do y'all think it's not Littermaid's in GENERAL, but perhaps specifically the one in the laundry room? It's a small, older one, and that's where she's defecated and urinated on the plastic in front of it... Do I try replacing that one with a regular box to see if it's specific?

BTW: I like the Walmart box. Now that I see what you're talking about, we have a bunch of those - use them for storing prints for Art Fairs. I have at least one extra...... The only problem I can see with trying that is

THE EXCAVATOR!!!!!!!!!!

What she lacks in size and weight, she makes up for in vigor and enthusiasm! Skyy is a litter flinger! She looks like a dog after a bone digging and throwing litter all over the place. But, if y'all think it's worth a try, I'll put the big thing in the laundry room and just figure we're going to have to vacuum up a ton of litter every day!

Unfortunately, just when you get frustrated with them, one shows up at 3 a.m., when you're awake reading in bed because you're stressed or whatever, and she gives a little squeak and curls up under your chin and starts purring...

Or (from my standpoint even better), one catches a mouse... And because they both dearly love my wife, the cat carries the mouse from downstairs where it was caught, upstairs to the bedroom where my wife is, and PRESENTS it to her like a great prize! Unfortunately, the cat doesn't KILL the mouse first, so when she presents it to my wife, it's generally uninjured, and the mouse immediately runs away! Which leads to a certain amount of excitement among the entire troop as both cats give chase while my wife yells for me to "come and catch this mouse"... I must admit that I find the entire process FAR more hilarious than my wife does! Fortunately, she's VERY smart and knows it's imperative that she praise the cat profusely when presented with these gifts, and proclaim her (the cat) to be a great and mighty hunter...

And and on... Now we just need to get them to consistently use the litter box - JUST LIKE THEY'VE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS!!!!

Anyhow, I'm going to pick up a fer-real, regular box this afternoon since my wife doesn't want to use the gigantic print storage box - I have to admit, with that thing in the laundry area, it'll BE the laundry area... We'll see how it goes.

>Your stories sound great and so typical of our cats

Spoken like a person who's been presented with a tremendous gift of a small animal by a proud cat!

As far as the laundry room - we never had a litter box in there before. Our original litter box is in the kitchen, and when we remodeled the kitchen we actually BUILT-IN a space under the end of the island for their litter box. It's on a raised platform so we can use a plastic pan to catch everything, which makes it very easy to clean every morning (no more trying to remove the littler plastic thing in the Littermaid). The whole thing rides on a sliding platform so the entire Littermaid can be slid out from under the island for cleaning. It's a really nice setup, and both cats used this box for FOUR YEARS... Never had a single problem. Then Brownie (I believe) started defecating right next to the box, and things got to where we are now...

We have a non-Littermaid in the laundry area, but it's not too close to the washer or dryer. We have a big, new Littermaid in the downstairs bath, which is where Brownie is confined at night. We have another big, new Littermaid in my office, which is where both cats spend the day. Last night I switched just THAT box to a different, UNSCENTED Arm & Hammer litter because "I" didn't like the smell. The cats used it fine.

SO FAR, with the setup we've got, and watching the cats (I feel like some kind voyeur following the cats around surreptitiously as they go into different rooms, they've faithfully been using the litter boxes.

I'm FERVENTLY hoping if it WAS a constipation problem, or something happened in one of the old boxes that scared the cat (again, I believe it was Brownie), that she's doing better. They've both been using the boxes in the office and the bathroom consistently. Someone went in the non-Littermaid in the laundry area but that could be Skyy. She seems to think it's her job to inaugurate ANY box that gets new litter - throw some litter, urinate, dig some more, be REALLY proud of yourself!

BUT, other than one time when someone used the old Littermaid in the kitchen, NOBODY has used it in over a month... So, I'm now thinking there may be something to do with the old boxes... The possibility of a smell being a problem was mentioned in here - I can think of three:

I think Tidy Cat changed their fragrance sometime recently. My wife recalls something about a new fragrance. Cats not liking that?

My wife cleaned the kitchen Littermaid with bleach, leaving it sitting in the pan for a while. I'm wondering if that could have left a smell the cats don't like.

The Littermaid in the laundry area is an older one. It may not have been used since we had Gracie. I wonder if there could be some residual smell in there that Brownie didn't like?

Anyhow, at the moment, everybody's behaving, and I'm hoping it continues. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions... Please keep them coming 'cause we're continuing to work on things here.

Well, at the moment, I'm cautiously optimistic. It's been more than 10 days since I was last in here with an update, and we haven't had a problem in that period.

We've been confining both cats in my office (with, of course, food, water, a fountain, plushy cat beds for both, a 7-foot cat tree in front of the window, a nice, warm computer to lay behind, a comfortable office chair (which Brownie sleeps in every time I get up), and toys with which to play - it's not exactly purgatory) when we're not going to be around to keep an eye on them.

They're both faithfully using the Littermaid in the office. No hesitation, no problem other than Skyy LOVES to fling litter wildly, seemingly just for the fun of it! I've watched Brownie, who I believe has been the cat not using the litter box, and she not only seems to jump in and use the box without hesitation, she's quick and doesn't appear to be straining at all with her movements. She also frequently runs out, as does Skyy, to watch the box clean itself - apparently it hasn't lost it's interest even after 4 years.

When we're home, we generally leave the office doors open so the cats can wander freely, and either my wife or I tries to keep an eye on them in case someone starts to squat outside the box. So far, there hasn't been a problem in the last 11 days......

The last time we DID have a problem, I let the cats out for an hour while I was gone, and when I returned there were droppings right in the middle between the Littermaid in the kitchen, and the regular (non-Littermaid) box in the laundry area. So, even though there was a litter box 5-feet away (that wasn't a Littermaid), someone went elsewhere...

Since that time, we've had no problem with either cat that we know of.

We'll be continuing keeping them in the office with me during the day, feeding the wet i/d with chicken broth, and having multiple litter boxes for a while and hope we continue not having any problems.

Thanks for all your ideas and thoughts. Hopefully, we're on a workable path.