Indoor v.s. Indoor/Outdoor Domestic Cats - Page 4

I believe that cats are as domesticated as dogs, however, because of dog's natural tendencies to live as a pack, they are easier to control than cats. You can't expect to make a cat behave like a dog, no more than you can expect a dog to behave like a human. We are all unique species with our own fundamental natures.

Cats are driven by "what's in it for me?". If you understand that concept, you can use it to your advantage in modifying their behavior. I've worked with feral born cats for the last 20+ years and while you may never be able to modify all unwanted behaviors, you can certainly work towards finding a mutually agreeable living arrangement. That being said, I've lived with a lot of dogs over the years and there are things inherent to their personality that can't be modified any more than things inherent to a cat's personality.

This is what I love the most about cats. The challenges they give me in trying to decipher what makes each of them tick and to find ways to enrich their lives. Dogs are easy. With cats you must be creative.

It has been said that the cat is unique among domesticated animals for two reasons.

1. They seem to have domesticated themselves.

2. They are the only non-pack/herd animal that is domesticated.

By the way, our shelter scans every animal brought in, including road kills.

Cat Person, can we talk? I hope we can. I would really love it if you could explain what you mean. Please realize, this is NOT a challenge. Absolutely, definitely not. I'm completely sincere when I say I would really like to find out what you mean so I could compare my experiences with yours.

To explain, from my own experiences I can say that cat behavior can most definitely be modified. I'm talking about unwanted behaviors here (aggression for instance, coming from fear, etc) that cause very serious problems and can lead to a cat to be euthanized). Otherwise I can see no reason for trying to modify a cat's behavior. A cat should be allowed to be a cat and live in harmony with his human family and other cats in the home.

Might have to disagree on that one. Ferrets, guinea pigs, silk worms, and some fishes and the like have been domesticated and aren't really herding creatures.

I think most people would disagree that those are truly domesticated, but that's one of those distinctions that are hard to make. In fact, there are many people who say cats aren't domesticated!

We've just encountered another argument in favor of keeping cats indoors - having to move. We showed a ground floor apartment to prospective tenants last week, and one was looking for such an apartment due to his having an indoor/outdoor cat. He has to move because his landlords want his current apartment for a family member and is having a horrible time finding something suitable. The vacancy unfortunately wasn't, because it's much too close to a main road and next to a busy church.

Actually she only goes by the bushes. She doesn't go farther than anywhere else. She sort of hates it in a way.

I doubt very much you received a warning for your views. Moderators on TCS, in my experience, don't focus on what is said (unless a personal attack), the issue is how it is said.

Well, since you said

.

I really believe explaining what you meant by this shouldn't get you into any kind of trouble. I would just be interested in finding out what specific behaviors you're thinking of. You wouldn't even have to go into why you think they can't be modified.

(I've had great success with modifying aggressive behavior, so when I think of cat behavior that can be modified, for me aggression is always one of the first things that comes to mind.)

I think the decision of letting cats go outside depends on the cat and where you live. All but one of our cats is allowed to come and go as they please. Monster is not allowed outside (although she tries!) because she has seizures and requires medication daily and she's sometimes so stoned she can't walk a straight line.

That being said, I also live in the country, by my MIL's farm, on a dirt road with very little traffic. When I lived in town, none of the cats were allowed out. Plus, all of my cats started out as barn cats. Harley, Monster, Gizmo, Missy and Corky were all found abandoned and we bottle fed them. Little One I saw in the barn one day and fell in love with her so I abducted her at about 3 months old.

Once we moved out here from town, I started letting them out if they wanted to go. Yes, I know there are dangers, especially with the woods and the barn cats, but most just stay around the house and soak up the sun. There is always water and food out for them and the barn cats so they aren't lacking in care and all are fixed.

The only "wanderer" is Little One. She got into a fight a few years ago while wandering and got an infection in her leg. Vet bills were high and recovery time was long so I said ALL the cats stay indoors. That was fine and dandy until she started feeling better and wanted out again. When she wasn't allowed out that is when the behavior issues came up. She started peeing in strategic places, ie counter tops, shoes, on my purse, etc. There was nothing wrong with her because her last follow up appointment we had her tested for UTI since the antibiotics could cause problems, but she was fine. She used the litterbox fine for pooping, she was just mad at us. Plus, she started hissing at the other cats and basically because anti-social. So, we started letting her out again. She became a different cat! She would get her alone time exploring away from the other cats and would be all loving and tolerant of the other cats when she came home. She worries me sick at times because she can be gone for days, but when she comes home she usually stays inside for a few days and I make sure she eats and drinks enough before letting her out again. Now, in the winter she has NO desire to go out and spends all her time sleeping in front of the pellet stove or curled up on our bed.

So I really think it depends on the cat and the circumstances. I will say, I save money on cat litter in the summer!

Ferrets are far more domesticated than cats, by the usual standards of domestication (existence in the wild, commonness of albinos, ability to go feral, etc.).

Have YOU ever owned ferrets or cavies?? Obviously not and you don't know much about them, both ferrets and cavies are happier with other ferrets and cavies.

I've owned them both, still have cavies and kept ferrets for years.
Anybody who owns them will tell you NOT to keep them alone.
Of course sometimes 2 particular ones won't get along, but that's normal in every species.

And, of course, most of us believe cats get along better when there are at least two of them. But some researchers say that the cats from which our cats are descended self-selected for more social life.

It's true they're happier with a friend or 3, and so are cats, really. But they aren't herd/pack animals. There's a difference between having a few friends and living in a herd.

You know something? Let's just forget about it, okay? I really believe that anything that can't be said about cat behavior out in the open shouldn't be said at all.

Please don't be sorry. But please, please, please, try to put your thoughts into a post we could all see and respond to. I have a feeling we could all benefit from your post and the responses to your post.

First let me say I read very little of the previous posts, the only one I really comment on is in regards to "loving them way to much to let them outside". I have 3 indoor cats and had one outdoor cat-who was killed by a snow plow last winter. I know as many of you read that you are thinking that I didn't love her or how terrible etc. I loved her enough to allow her the lifestyle she wanted and her desire was to live outside. No dying by being hit my a snow plow isn't what I hoped for her. But as I held her after she was gone, I never doubted that I made the right choice for her and still don't. My neighbors never were bothered by her-and I asked so I know. She used our flower bed to potty and slept in our garage or on our porch every night, and altho she hunted daily- I can vouch she by no means has affected the chipmunk population in our area. As for my 3 indoor cats-this is the only life they've ever known. Had they been outdoor cats from a young age, they would be allowed to go outside. One of them does go out, when I'm with her and she loves it. Saying someone doesn't love their pet because they let them outside is like saying someone doesn't love their child because they let them do something that others deem 'unsafe'.

But your cat didn't "live" outside - she died - was killed by a snow plow.

Nobody said you don't love your cat because you let her go outside, they said they loved their own cat too much to let it go outside. The difference is that they have different values than you do and that's OK. We all think differently and that doesn't necessarily make any of us wrong.

I didn't realize so many of you felt that cats should not ever be outside. Hmm...wondering how welcome I am around here with those attitudes, since 2 of my 6 cats are outdoor cats!

Here is how I feel.

I have 3 cats inside and one baby girl who is out in the garage right now recovering from a URI and waiting to be boostered and spayed before she comes inside to live (due to my old cat's health issues). My husband put his foot down and said that 4 inside cats is ENOUGH!

About a month later, I walked into a kill shelter and met a momma and her baby. She was emaciated from nursing a kitten who had been weaned. Her kitten was so scared of people that they shelter was ready to put him down for being "anti-social" at a whopping 8 weeks old! I opened the momma's cage (baby was in there with her) and she fell, literally, into my arms. She was too weak to do much more than purr gently and lay there. I cried. The next morning, I took momma kitty and her baby, Percy, home with me. I set them up in my garage with food, water, beds, and a really nice enclosure for the kitten so he could stop nursing and momma could recover from her spay (she was sent off to be spayed when I filled out the adoption paperwork). I nursed them both back to health - fed them all they wanted and took care of them. When momma felt better, she started pawing at the windows and the door. She would run out of the garage when we opened it up and I would have to catch her to put her back in. Finally, I let her go out. She found the barn and was just in cat heaven!

I have now had momma and Percy for just over 2 months and both of them are healthy, happy, playful outdoor kitties. They spend their days in the barn, climbing the trees on our 60 acre property, and momma fiercely defends her "territory" by running off every bunny and chicken she sees. At night, they come back to the garage for food, water, a litter box, and their beds. I lock them in there at night (when the real predatory dangers exist here). I don't know what winter will bring for these two cats...but for now, I know that what they have here - with the love and life we give them and the freedom they have to be CATS - is better than the death they would have had at the shelter. Their time was almost up.

I also have to say that Momma and Percy are much more healthy and active than my indoor cats. My indoor cats are a bit overweight (with the exception of Blue and the new girl, Juno) and they mostly sleep and eat. Rex and Chloe are only just over a year old and they are lazy lumps. They play with each other for about 30mnutes a day and then they sleep the rest. Momma (who is also just about a year old) and Percy are always out and about...running, playing, climbing, and being active.

ETA: Our garage is attached to our house with a door leading inside...so don't think greasy nasty detached garage with cats locked in it, please. LOL

I don't think any of us have a problem with an indoor/outdoor cat if there's a leash or an enclosure or contained back yard involved (or the cats remain on the property). I think it's the free roaming part for MOST cats where most members have a problem.

I also believe most members understand there are some rescue kitties that just don't adjust to being inside.

I have absolutely no problem with cats being indoor/outdoor. I have a problem with (most) cats being allowed to roam when outdoors (and not only because of the implications to the cat, but for so many other reasons, as fully discussed in this thread). Very important distinction.

My two outdoor cats know no other life. They "roam" about 20 feet from the house to the barn. They even walk back over to the garage to use the litter box! Neither of them will potty outside. LOL If I am outside, momma and Percy stay right with me. If I am inside, they hang out in the barn and spend their days crawling around in the secret tunnels (holes in the wood) they make to the different rooms in the barn. We have no other live animals in there.

ETA: My outdoor cats are vaccinated (including FeLv), neutered/spayed, and both of them come like lightening when called. We also use Revolution monthly on both cats to keep fleas, heartworm, and internal parasites away.

Welcome back hun

I have always considered "indoor/outdoor" to mean "free-roaming". I wouldn't consider a cat only allowed out on a leash or in an enclosure to be "indoor/outdoor", and would be confused if someone referred to it as such.

So, yes, what about those who love their cat too much to confine him/her against his/her will? We had a cat when I was younger who would have been miserable if he had been confined in any way. Even keeping him in for a night (say, on Halloween, or when the neighbors were having a party) was a real ordeal for everyone involved. He was a great cat, but not a great housepet. It would have bordered on cruelty to try to keep him indoors.

Excellent post, as usual, Laurie. There is too much thinking in "black or white". There are certainly "grey" areas in this issue. There are barn cats that live outdoors which most of us don't have a problem with. There are feral cats that would never be able to be indoor cats, again, no problem. Those of us who keep our cats indoor only do so because we know it is safer, our cats aren't crying to get out, we provide cat trees and lots of toys and spend time with them. I was born and raised on a farm. We never had an indoor cat - they were all barn cats.

I don't think anyone can put up a valid argument to say that cats are as safe outdoor as they are indoor. When my husband and I were together, he too thought it was better to let Bijou outside and that I was wrong to try to keep him as an indoor cat only. Well after two fights, 2 abscesses and $1200 later, 4 days of a missing cat, I put my foot down. He didn't get the message and started letting Bijou out again.

Let me tell you, Bijou does not go outside anymore and seems quite content to sit out on the balcony on a chair beside me.

So, as I said, this issue isn't a black or white issue, there are grey areas that are perfectly acceptable to most of us.

She lived outside, and she died outside. Just like if a person lived and died outdoors. Would you say that they didn't "live" outside?

I agree with you! Wessie was much more active and in shape when he lived outdoors.

To Willowy: I think that if you have a cat proof fence that keeps your cat in your yard, you can consider your cat to be indoor/outdoor.