Am I a bad cat owner for leaving my cats out all night? - Page 2  

Yes as I said if it is safe to let the domestic cat outside I think the domestic cat has the "right" to go outside if that cat chooses to do so. Plus the cat needs to be able to medically do so !

Anyway yes twenty tame cats might get you in trouble with the neighbors . So I can see why you do not let your pets outside !

Also I let my domestic cats inside whenever they want. I do not like the idea of a cat outside twenty four seven unless the cat wants to live that way. So I guess I am saying unless it is a feral cat, I agree a cat should not be forced outside twenty four seven.

Lastly I now understand what you mean about "dangers" of domestic cats breeding .

I am going to be VERY CAREFUL how I respond as I like you. But can you explain to me by they have the "right" to reproduce? Also are you from the Southern/Midwestern part of the US? If so, I have run into licensed veterinarians that believe the cat should be spayed/neutered after a year old or proof it has had a litter. Yes growing up in the North I have a very different view. But animal care is based off of cultural "norms" and we all need to understand everyone has different views!

catsinmypajamaz, I don't know where you live. But some information may help you understand the position of The Cat Site and its members.

In the U.S., according to the American Veterinary Medical Association and the American Pet Products Manufacturer's Association, Americans own 88 million pet cats. One in every three homes owns at least one cat.

No one knows how many unowned cats there are, but estimates range from about 20 million to the same number of unowned cats as owned cats (potentially about 88 million unowned cats).

So there are between 108 million and 176 million cats in the U.S. (To put that into perspective, there are 310 million people in the U.S.).

What would happen if everyone believed that cats had the right to reproduce? If only 30% of the cats were female, and if 10% were so ill they gave birth to still born kittens (like this poor kitty: Requesting a ton of vibes for new foster, Brooklyn, and if each had only one litter a year, and if each only had three kittens per litter, that's still 64 - 105 million kittens being born every year. And you think your cat is pregnant with 8 kittens.

Humans are the guardians of our environment. We are the caretakers of our animals. We are responsible for their health and welfare. When there are literally tens of millions more cats than there are homes for them already, how is it not cruel to let our pets breed? The result is millions of cats being intentionally murdered in shelters every year. (And that's with 82% of the owned cat population being sterilized and only about 35% of them being allowed to roam.)

Even if you find homes for your cat's kittens, that potentially leaves 8 other homeless cats - already born, already homeless - that could otherwise have been adopted from a shelter. That's 8 cats that will be killed by some shelter to accommodate your cat's kittens.

And this just addresses the issues of the cat population. There are many health benefits to the cats themselves when they are spayed and neutered, and these alone are excellent reasons to spay and neuter our cats.

I think you should go and spend some time in a cat shelter and volunteer. Then you will change your mind about your ignorant statement. The suffering is beyond belief. There are quite a few of us who are feral advocates on this site who trap/neuter/release. It is a never ending battle and the hardship these cats/kittens endure is heartbreaking. The injuries these poor cats sustain are traumatic. Many of the strays/ferals suffer terrible deaths, suffer traumatic injuries with no medical attention, suffer prolonged and slow deaths, suffer abuse from cat-haters, suffer from starvation/dehydration, suffer from disease. If these cats are lucky enough to have found a feral caretaker such as many of the members here on this site, then their life may be slightly better. Why should we have to be responsible for your carelessness, and IMO, cruelty to letting cats breed and live a life of suffering outside?????? Why should we have to pay for medical care/food/TNR for that cat or kitten that was born to your outside cat??? Not to mention the worry and concern we put into caring for these poor innocent cats. Why do we do it..... because there will always be someone like you out there letting unaltered cats roam and breed because you think it is their right. We do it because...... someone has to step up and have a voice for all of the stray/feral cats. We do it because.... someone has to take on the responsibility of your mistake and misguided thinking about cats and their right to breed.

I am having a hard time understanding the thinking that "it is a cats right to reproduce" I really don't think cats have the mind or thought process to feel like their rights have been violated if you have them spayed/neutered... I really doubt they enjoy having litter after litter...Thats just a lazy excuse not to bother and spend the money and time to get them fixed. I don't mean to offend just my thought..
And as to letting them outside or keeping them inside only. Thats up to you. I myself love my cats very much and would not dream of letting them be harmed by free roaming ever!! They do go out inside their Purrrfect cat fence and thats it no free roaming..Night time the window is shut and access to the outside fencing system is closed for the night. I could not sleep knowing they where out in the fence even though they can't get out of it. Thats me I love them and worry about them..

I am not here to judge anyone but I would NEVER and I mean NEVER let my cats outside. They are strictly indoors.... and they are happy.

"Just because you can reproduce doesn't mean you should". -random quote which I find to be very true, with human and animals..

Are your children also indoor/outdoor and free to knock up anyone they want and fight with other kids because it's their 'right'?

Are your breeding quality (if not, then WHY are they breeding?) cats tested for STDs and other diseases?

I would be way too worried about my cats if they were going outside, I could never do it. Luckily they don't even like to go out (tried with harness). If your cast are spayed/neutered/vaccinated and well taken care of and you live in the middle of nowhere, then I can understand letting them go out. Even then I would suggest an enclosure for them so nothing can attack them etc.

"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." -Antoine de Saint Exupéry

Are you a bad cat owner? Yes. (Sorry, but it's because of people who believe that cats belong outside and that cats have a "right" to have kittens that shelters are always so over-crowded and in constant need of money and volunteers. And it's terribly sad, not to mention very selfish.)

We got our last kitten two weeks ago because of an owner who thought it would be cute for her cat to have kittens. But then she didn't want to care for the kittens because they had ear mites and she didn't want to be bothered taking care of them. They ended up outside. Thank god, Tabby found her way to us, but we don't what happened to her litter-sister (there were two kittens). We had six cats and now we have seven. I'm certainly not begrudging any amount of money we're spending on vet bills for this little darling, but frankly, it's because of people who think it's cute for their cat to have kittens and think it's their cat's right to have those kittens that Tabby was born. And had it not been that she found her way to us, god only knows what would have happened to her. And is it her "right" to die because her mother's owner wasn't responsible?

(And yes, I'm really upset about it. Frustrated. Angry. And everything else.)

This may be an unpopular opinion, and please forgive me for being blunt, but cats do not have the "right" to do anything. Animal rights doesn't necessarily mean what the animal has the right to do or not do, it means how we as humans must treat them- with dignity and respect, as they deserve. I think that saying a cat has the "right" to reproduce is just another way of saying you don't want to get her spayed because you think kittens are cute. They are cute. They're very cute. There are also lots of them dying every day.

Please, don't impose human affect on your cat! It doesn't have the "right" to reproduce, it reproduces because it's an animal and that's what animals instinctively do. That's nature, not a right.

I hope that made sense.

Catsinmypajamaz............ I want to help you and have been thinking about this. I am worried for your cats and you too. I really think you need some assistance in this situation with your cats and I know you probably do love your cats BUT, I think you might have your hands full with your four beautiful children and you say you live in a tiny apartment, right? Would you consider bringing your cats to a shelter/rescue/foster organization? Sometimes, we hang on to pets for our personal needs and wants but if you try to take yourself emotionally out of the equation and think about what might be best for your cats. Are your cats being cared for properly? Are they getting enough food? Are they getting proper medical attention? Can you afford all of these things? If not, please, please consider contacting someone to help you get these cats into a new situation. I am wholeheartedly sorry if you will take offense to my suggestion because that is not why you posted here with this thread. I just have to wonder, can you really, truly, care for these two cats. Just think about it.

Actually, I am glad you came to the site asking about your cats. It means you DO love them and want what's best for them. Sometimes the best thing for our cats is not what is best for us and a decision must be made for the betterment, health and welfare of the animal involved. Many, many, many .

I wonder if we're being spoofed.

To the OP: you can change your kitties over to becoming indoor only, but they need to be neutered/spayed (as others have said it makes a huge difference in calming them down) and you have to play with them a lot so they can work off that energy You will get some great laughs playing with them, I promise!

Changing them to all indoors makes for a closer bond with you, too, and since you are concerned, having them indoors will give you peace of mind. (It's also cheaper vet-wise because they get injured much more often and easily outside.) There's lots of info available here and on the net on how to change them to indoor cats. Good luck!

I'm sorry but I must disagree with this... Wessie lived for about a year as an outdoor/indoor cat, and now he lives as indoor only. We've always had a wonderful bond, and I don't think it's changed much, whether he's mostly indoors or outdoors.

It's just most of us on here just presume that the "boys" which you never mentioned were human, were cats.

Cat Person, you are finally someone who I can really relate to! I think that cats absolutely have the "right" to go out, as much as a person does. If we just trap cats inside, then we should be trapping people inside, just so they don't get harmed. Once again, it's that age old question, "Would you rather live an exciting and short life, or a long and boring life?"

But, I know this is a very important topic to most of the people on here, and a lot are going to bombard me with their disagreements. Personally, I do agree with catsinmypajamaz, in some ways, cats do have the "right" to have kittens. No, I don't want there to be suffering, homeless cats all over, having to be euthanized. I just like to think of the cat like a person, and I would never just do that to a person. So, though I know most of you can't see this and you're not trying to do this, in my eyes you are treating cats like they are nothing more than something you can completely control. I know you are all doing it because you love cats, but I just don't quite see it that way. Yes, I plan to have my cats neutered, but I wouldn't care if I had a female cat who had kittens. And I don't think that people are terrible if they don't spay/neuter their cats. I think they are still good cat owners, and just are thinking from a different perspective than most people.

Just something to think about... What if 1000 years in the future, everyone has started thinking that we should all spay and neuter our cats. Every single cat a person sees, is taken to the vet and neutered. One day, all of the cats of the world are neutered. How would we all feel? We were trying to help, but instead we've killed off a whole species of animal. So there always needs to be those rare people in the world who don't neuter their animals, or else cats could go extinct. Please don't just argue back with the statistics of how many homeless cats there are, I know already. It's sad how many poor kitties are suffering in the world. But that's how they would be before they were domesticated, and that's how it will probably continue being. I just don't think that people should be going and interfering with everything, and just let the circle of life continue in its natural pattern. Plus, looking at it now, it seems as though cats could never go extinct by people getting them neutered. But, people are neutering more and more cats everyday, the trend is leaning that way, and it could be different in 20,000 years. So just let these differently minded people be, why not just agree to disagree?

Except, before they were domesticated, things were different. Wild animals only have one pregnancy a year (except for prey animals like mice and rabbits). Domesticated animals are more fertile---in some places cats can have 3 litters a year. Wild animals do not have vaccines or medical care, so mortality is very high. Wild animals don't have regular access to easy food, and lack of food causes a large percentage of their offspring to die. Wild animals have no protection from predators, so many of them are eaten. And no protection from the elements, so many of them die from getting too cold or too hot.

Nature has ways to control the population, it's only when humans mess up the natural order of things that overpopulation happens. And humans have already messed up the natural order of things simply by domesticating cats. If we aren't willing to control their reproduction, then we shouldn't feed them or vaccinate them or provide vet care when they're sick or provide protection from the elements and predators, either. Just like in the wild. Otherwise we're just artificially causing the population to grow to unhealthy numbers.

To maintain the current population of cats, 50% of females could have one litter before being spayed (assuming an average litter size of 4). So I don't mind too much if someone lets their cat have one litter before spaying her, provided they take good care of the kittens and find responsible homes for them. Although I think there are enough accidental pregnancies that it's not necessary for people to do this on purpose. But not ever spaying her at all is very hard on the poor mama cat (how would you like to raise 8-12 children every year?), and will probably kill her at some point, besides adding too many cats to the population.

I don't think cats will ever become extinct . If the population ever dips to low numbers, there will be plenty of people willing to let their cat breed. The only way they could become extinct is if every single cat in the world was spayed/neutered at the same time, and that's not possible. A more likely scenario of extinction would be the population growing to the point that incurable diseases start popping up and can't be stopped due to the overpopulation.

We aren't living 1000 or 10,000 years in the future. We are living in 2011 where there are millions of animals who suffer and die each year because of irresponsible pet owners.

If you believe in the whole "circle of life" you shouldn't have pets to begin with, as there is nothing inherently natural about domesticating dogs & cats. Not to mention you should be out hunting and growing your own food instead of stopping by the grocery store on your way home from work.

Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold any water with me.

You are talking about one point I made, your one cat, one year, and you "don't think" it's true? That doesn't invalidate my any of my statements, and I stand by them.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. A single pair of cats and their kittens can produce as many as 420000 kittens in just 7 years. The logistics of capturing every single cat in the world is also beyond any reasonable possibility, and there are still a plethora of breeders available by any account. But you have my blessing to promote not having cats spayed/neutered when we reach the point that cats are anywhere close to approaching the 'threatened' list, and this is not something that is going to occur overnight and surprise you tomorrow morning, I assure you. But to promote random breeding when there are massive population control problems, and so many have to be put to death because of it, to tell people its OK not to spay and neuter their pets is absolutely part of the problem and they are indirectly responsible for killing cats and damaging other species affected by population issues.
No, before they were domesticated and became a human satellite, fossil records demonstrate that feline populations were not out of control and were restricted primarily to the middle-east, where the population was in balance with the local ecosystem and controlled by the amount of food available.
Then there would be no cats in North America or most of the rest of the world. Cats are not a native species to this ecosystem, and it is human interference that has disrupted the natural circle of life. If you don't understand this basic concept, take a look at Australia's history, paying particular attention to the damage that the introduction of rabbits have caused.

Like other human satellites, cats are here and with out of control populations because of humanity, so as our children species we are responsible for their welfare and that includes not contributing to their suffering and the destruction of habitats around the globe by doing the right thing and controlling their population. Spaying and neutering is not required, but some form of birth control is and that is the most effective means.

At least us, humans, look both ways before crossing the street. We know what's safe to eat or not. and where it's safe to go.. and we, generally, have good sense to stay away from bad people, and not attack people to cause them harm. These domesticated cats don't know that much, and I feel its up to us to protect them! Same as to why there are leash laws for dogs.. Sure, the cats and dogs can go out, supervised and on a harness/leash, for both safety of the animals and humans.

This thread is getting very off track and will now be closed. If you would like to debate the rights of cats and the unfairness or fairness of it all, please do so in the IMO forum, not Behavior.

As far as should you let your cats out - That is a very personal decision. Only you know your cats and the safety where you live. When I lived elsewhere, we would let our cat out with supervision. Where I live now, it is not safe at all and my cat will never be allowed outside.

However, you letting your cats that have not been spayed or neutered out is extremely irresponsible, in my opinion. It is the position of this site that all cats should be spayed and neutered: