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"Goth" Piercing of Kittens Ruled Illegal

post #1 of 57
6/20/11 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/us...?_r=1&src=recg

Judge Elliott wrote, “Appellant’s claims center on her premise that a person of normal intelligence would not know whether piercing a kitten’s ears or banding its tail is maiming, mutilating, torturing or disfiguring an animal.â€

The judge added, “We disagree.â€

Right on!
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post #2 of 57
6/20/11 at 5:05pm
I'd have to know the specifics. Personally, I don't believe that tail docking or ear cropping of Boxers for example is necessarily torture or mutilation.

By the strict definition, of course its mutilation, but so to would be sex organ removal in a literal sense, and both are done by very loving caregivers. My sister's boxer for example doesn't have the ears, but has his tail cropped, and it didn't cause any real harm.

And my little sister had her ears pierced as a child, and then got her belly button at eighteen simply because my parents didn't like it. Mutilation and disfigurement, or just a cultural thing?

IMO, such laws are designed to protect animals from clear intentional harm, and I'm not so sure an ear piercing counts... heck, for strays we chop off part of the ear.
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post #3 of 57
6/20/11 at 5:19pm
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/...31_468x286.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/...53_468x395.jpg

That shows better what they are talking about. The scruff piercing, I don't see how that would bother a cat. Its a very loose piece of skin.

The ear piercings I think would be tolerated if they weren't so enormously heavy. If they were tiny diamond ones, since the kitten is so young I think it'd get used to it and it wouldn't be horrific mutilation. As it is, I can understand why people were so upset.
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post #4 of 57
6/20/11 at 5:30pm
Many dog breeders band the puppies' tails to dock them. I am against docking and cropping in general, but I think the law needs to be more consistent in how they enforce these kinds of things. If dog breeders can do it, crazy kitten piercers can do it, too.
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post #5 of 57
6/20/11 at 5:48pm
Thread Starter 
I'm astonished at the replies.

Ear cropping and tail docking are done in dogs such as boxers to conform with AKC breed standards. My understanding is that in the UK both are illegal. In the USA they're done but only by a veterinarian, with anesthesia and pain medication. Wrapping a rubber band around a puppy's tail to dock it - does that sound humane? Do it to a kitten?

Cat shows don't have a class for cats with piercings. There's no breed standard that includes body piercing and piercing ears. It was done purely as a profit-making device.

There was some discussion a while back about dyeing a cat pink - how do you feel about that?

If you think of cats as a fashion accessory then dyeing, piercing, docking might seem appropriate.

Not to me.
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post #6 of 57
6/20/11 at 5:53pm
there are other reasons besides looks to dock tails on dogs. The reason many working dogs have their tails docked are so that when they are sprinting through the woods they do not get their tails caught on things and broken by branches. Also some dogs need their tails docked due to "happy tail syndrome"
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post #7 of 57
6/20/11 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
There was some discussion a while back about dyeing a cat pink - how do you feel about that?
Well, I don't even like making my cats wear collars since it annoyed them!

BUT, if its food dye and not getting in the cats eyes or causing serious harm, then I certainty wouldn't demand the caretaker be thrown in jail or anything, as I don't believe in so forcefully imposing my personal beliefs on others unless absolutely necessary. I know in the UK the political climate is quite different and just about everything is legislated.

Personally, I believe animal cruelty and mutilation laws should be reserved for people with harmful intent causing obvious serious damage to the animal's welfare. The ear piercings I think were just an issue because of their obvious size and weight. The tail-docking, I'm not a vet, but that would be a cause for concern if it posed any health risk.

I see Japanese especially often dressing up their cats, and I think mine would hate it, but these aren't truly abuses just annoyances.
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post #8 of 57
6/20/11 at 6:17pm
I, too, am astonished at the replies. This should be in the IMO forum.

If you read through the article, this crazy woman, Ms. Crawford, did these things to the cats/kittens without any anesthesia. Piercing the neck??? Banding the tail on a cat to stop the blood flow so it will fall off????? Do you think we do that do dogs when the tails are docked??? dogs tails are docked at about two days old and it is quick. CATs tails have TONS of nerve endings going into the tail from the spine and even if done under anesthesia, it would be cruel and cause probable urinary and bowel incontinence.

Feral cats ears are tipped while under anesthesia and dogs ears are cropped while being under too. This woman did it with nothing, that is abuse and makes me very sick.
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post #9 of 57
6/20/11 at 6:25pm
Many dog breeders DO band tails for docking. . .it's considered quite acceptable as a docking method. And docking is done without anesthetic. Why would docking a cat's tail cause incontinence if docking dogs' tails doesn't?

I agree that the kitten was too old for docking, but other than that, what's the difference?

And as for the earrings, I'll argue that the taping necessary to make a cropped dog's ear stand up (and the taping is done for months, it's not a short-term thing!) is very comparable.

As I said, I am against docking and cropping/earrings (on dogs and cats). I think the "some dogs need to be docked" argument is specious and self-serving (and illogical). I just think laws need to be applied consistently. You can't say it's dandy if dog people do it, but terrible if goth girls do it. Just because dog people have "tradition" and "breed standards" on their side, and goth people are "scary" and different.
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post #10 of 57
6/20/11 at 6:25pm
Thread Starter 
Years back I had a lab weimaraner cross who, as an adult, damaged the tip of her tail. Antibiotics, bandages - didn't heal. Gangrene set it and her tail had to be docked. As an adult that's major surgery. Would I have had it done to her as a puppy? No. Want to argue that it should have been done as a more minor operation as preventative medicine?

The "tail damage while running through brush" seems to me to be a specious argument. If valid for hunting spaniels why not setters - because they're taller?

Dressing up cats in Japan - they have some funny outfits with headdresses and capes - Little Bo Peep anyone? But the outfits are removable and do not involve piercings.

I'm surprised that - if ear piercing is such a potentially fashionable option - no one has mentioned the Egyptian statues of cats with small gold hoop earrings.

There are cultural differences. Male circumcision is - mostly - acceptable (though there was a recent movement in California to ban it completely, no exceptions even for Jewish / Muslim religious reasons.) Female genital circumcision? Most of us would consider it mutilation and want to see it banned. Should it still be allowed in African / Mid-Eastern countries where it is a "cultural norm"?

Spay / neuter to reduce feral populations - The Cat Site is all for it. De-clawing is considered vile by The Cat Site rules. Ear piercing, body piercing, tail docking of cats - oh well, let's just leave that up to the individual.
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post #11 of 57
6/20/11 at 6:42pm
I agree that dog ear cropping and tail docking is really just done for aesthetics. I don't believe it causes any permanent harm to the animal though.

It is a side-benefit though to dock Boxers as their tails are very painful, especially if you have kids who's faces are right at tail level, as it forms a powerful whip when excited... which for Boxers is almost 24x7 in my experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralvr View Post
Feral cats ears are tipped while under anesthesia and dogs ears are cropped while being under too. This woman did it with nothing, that is abuse and makes me very sick.
I've never heard of a human needing anesthesia for a simple ear, brow, lip, or even tongue piercing.

They just use wide bore hollow needles, and if done by a trained person, is generally uneventful.
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post #12 of 57
6/20/11 at 8:08pm
I'm not sure how I feel about the article, as I don't know much about docking or puppy ears and the like. I do think those earrings look terribly uncomfortable and the cat doesn't look happy.

I just wanted to agree with Ducman that piercing doesn't require anesthesia as there is ordinarily very little pain. I have 10 ear piercings in all and the only one that hurt was my rook piercing because the cartilage is so thick it requires a lot of force to get the needle through. Otherwise, they are nearly painless. Just a quick bite as the needle goes through.

However, it's difficult to say without knowing the woman as a piercer. Piercings can go horribly, disfiguring-ly wrong if done incorrectly. She says she is a piercing enthusiast but not a professional piercer. Who knows if she has an autoclave, if her needles and jewelry are sterile, and so forth? That, along with improper size and weight of jewelry, would be my main concern. I also think it's just plain weird to pierce, dye, tattoo, or otherwise practice BM on cats, but because I think it's weird doesn't mean it needs to be illegal.

As for the docking and other concerns - I'm not really sure. Looking forward to more responses.
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post #13 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:08pm
Thread Starter 
The judge's entire ruling is here: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...ens_Ruling.pdf

A veterinary expert witness is quoted:

"Dr. Melinda Merch (“Dr. Merchâ€), an animal cruelty investigator and veterinarian, was qualified as an expert in the field of veterinary forensic science. (Id. at 300.) Dr. Merch explained that the 14-gauge needle used to pierce the kittens is the type of needle used to give injections to cattle. (Id. at 302.) In her practice, she used a 25-gauge needle, a much smaller size, when giving injections to kittens. (Id.)"

"The doctor also testified that the piercings would be a source of constant irritation and pain for the animals and could alter the kittens’ hearing. (Id. at 305, 309.) If it became infected, it would hurt the cat anytime the ear moved. (Id. at 310.)"

[One kitten ripped out an earring. The defendant pierced the ear again.]

"As for the piercings at the scruff of the neck, Dr. Merch explained that a kitten would always feel like it was being dominated and bitten. (Id. at 312.)"

"Dr. Merch testified that banding is never an accepted procedure, and the only appropriate way to dock a tail is surgically with the aid of anesthesia. (Id. at 313-314, 358.) She opined that banding would be extremely painful to a kitten as there are spinal nerves in the part of the tail where the band was placed. (Id. at 316.) Putting a 14-gauge needle in the docked tail [after the tail fell off the defendant planned to piece the stub] would make the pain worse."

" Lastly, she opined that the kittens were maimed, disfigured, and tortured. (Id. at 321-322.)"

The three kittens with piercings, one of which was without a tail, and one of which had a banded tail were described by two PETA investigator who saw the kittens at the defendant's home as being noted that the three pierced kittens were "not moving at all and were very docile, unlike normal kittens of similar age. She noted a definite difference in the behavior of the pierced kittens versus the non-pierced kitten, who was engaging and moving around the room."
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post #14 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:20pm
I agree with you completely Catapult. And think about what all cats and kittens get into. Imagine a cat or kitten getting the "earring" caught on something, and having to tear a piece of her own ear off just to get free. It's disgusting.

Imagine a cat having an itch, and scratching her ear, her claw gets caught in the earring, and rips it out. How can anyone with the even the slightest compassion and empathy and understanding for animals think this is okay?

And banding....well, words fail me that people can think this is okay.

It's also disgusting that this woman (based on the the original stories when it first came out) was only concerned about what the negative publicity would do to her "grooming business".

And think about this, those who don't think this is evil and inhumane. What kind of people are going to be buying "goth kittens". The kind that don't see animals as living creatures who feel pain and suffering. "it's just a cat", and in this case a fashion accessory. Sick.

And the copy cats. Oh yes, I am sure, that while it is important that this story is publicized, you know there are going to be the (-choose your epitaph-) types who decide to try it for themselves.

Gosh, the evil that is practiced on innocent animals. it just boggles the mind.
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post #15 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Dr. Merch testified that banding is never an accepted procedure, and the only appropriate way to dock a tail is surgically with the aid of anesthesia.
So are they going to start prosecuting dog breeders and vets who dock puppies via banding and/or without anesthetic?
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post #16 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
So are they going to start prosecuting dog breeders and vets who dock puppies via banding and/or without anesthetic?
That would be great! It would be getting us closer and closer to outlawing declawing, is how I see it.
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post #17 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
That would be great! It would be getting us closer and closer to outlawing declawing, is how I see it.
I'd prefer they START by outlawing de-clawing, because I don't think docking and cropping dogs is nearly as bad (still bad, not AS bad).
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post #18 of 57
6/20/11 at 9:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
I'd prefer they START by outlawing de-clawing, because I don't think docking and cropping dogs is nearly as bad (still bad, not AS bad).
Oh I would too, definitely. It's a slow uphill climb though, and any little progress in animal rights, whether it be piercing or banding, helps pave the way.
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post #19 of 57
6/21/11 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
Oh I would too, definitely. It's a slow uphill climb though, and any little progress in animal rights, whether it be piercing or banding, helps pave the way.
I do hope you mean "animal WELFARE". If animals had rights, we couldn't keep them inside or in a fence, make reproductive/medical decisions for them, eat them or feed them to other animals, kill dangerous animals (without a trial anyway), or put them in shelters. We wouldn't be able to keep them as pets, we would have to let them roam freely and breed freely, and this would be a huge step backward in their welfare. Taking proper care of animals means they cannot have the same rights as humans. If they had those rights, we would have to let them make their own decisions even if those decisions are dangerous or unwise. People who like their pets should not support animal rights.
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post #20 of 57
6/21/11 at 8:44am
Animal Welfare is what I meant. Thank you for the correction.
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post #21 of 57
6/21/11 at 10:32am
We pierce ourselfs, have tatoos and various other things but that is our choice. To do this to a cat is just discusting IMO. It can get its ears caught and the things could rip out, a cat also uses its ears for hunting pierceing could mess this all up. As for docking its tail ******* a cat uses its tail for ballance and to comunicate with other cats and us, I really cant imagine someone doing this and I think it is evil. I have farm animals and they have by law to have thier ears taged (pierced) I hate doing it and the ammount of times the things get riped out is amazing, if I didnt have to do it I wouldnt.
If we want to mutilate things then lets just do it to ourselfs and levave the poor animals as they should be. Dont get me wrong I love my Tats and my piercings but I wouldnt do it to my cats or my dogs.
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post #22 of 57
6/21/11 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milk maid View Post
We pierce ourselfs, have tatoos and various other things but that is our choice. To do this to a cat is just discusting IMO. It can get its ears caught and the things could rip out, a cat also uses its ears for hunting pierceing could mess this all up. As for docking its tail ******* a cat uses its tail for ballance and to comunicate with other cats and us, I really cant imagine someone doing this and I think it is evil. I have farm animals and they have by law to have thier ears taged (pierced) I hate doing it and the ammount of times the things get riped out is amazing, if I didnt have to do it I wouldnt.
If we want to mutilate things then lets just do it to ourselfs and levave the poor animals as they should be. Dont get me wrong I love my Tats and my piercings but I wouldnt do it to my cats or my dogs.
I agree with this 100%. If it were to benefit the health and wellbeing of the animal in some way fine, otherwise leave them alone. This is just torture and unnecessary.
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post #23 of 57
6/21/11 at 12:08pm
People seem to be forgetting that dogs tails used to be docked for a reason. It started out that the WORKING dogs had their tails docked because their tails were forever getting injured. There WAS a reason.

I have a Boxer whose tail IS docked, however it is ILLEGAl in New Brunswick now for vets to dock tails or crop ears. Breeders, especially big breeders who have litters all the time usually do the docking themselves at home with an elastic.

Piercing a cat (or dog) is completly disgusting and one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard., it has NO purpose....grrrrr people annoy me!

I just woke up so I have no idea if any of that makes sense!
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post #24 of 57
6/21/11 at 12:11pm
Also...

How many times have we ripped our earings out, caught them on something? It is extremly painful!

I remember in High School if 2 girls got into a fight the first thing one went for was the earings and YANK!

What if those poor kitties caught those rings on something and nobody was home to help it? Look at many animals have been injured just fromw earing collars?!?!

Good grief, people who agree with this need their head checked!
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post #25 of 57
6/21/11 at 12:27pm
There is a big difference between agreeing with something, and signing law to have police show up at their house and throw them in jail for something.

As mentioned, those ear piercings are horrendous, but ear piercing in general is not torture in every and any circumstance I can think of for example,and my mother allowed my 10yr old sister to get her ears pierced and it wasn't out of any malice or because she thought of her daughter as a fashion accessory. She just had it for herself, and thought it would look pretty on her daughter too. I would never do it, but if a lady gave her beloved cat the same tiny diamond stud earrings as she wears, I wouldn't sick the police on her and would instead just caution that it might irritate the cat or get caught on something. But for an indoor pampered cat, it really may not be an issue. So I prefer to go on a case-by-case basis, and in this case I can understand the complaint about how the ear piercing was executed. The neck piercing I just don't see a problem with though as its more a matter of opinion. They complain about the gauge of the needle, but it probably wasn't any thicker than what was used on my cats to microchip them.

Basically, as much as I know that I am right about absolutely everything there is (pats self on back for being a genius), whenever there is the possibility for a gray area at all, I try not to get my opinion forced on others at gunpoint and prefer persuasion. Otherwise, at some point perhaps I'll be in the minority and PETA people will say its imprisonment to confine my cats, and I'm guilty of mutilation for removing their sex organs and then worse having them tattooed like slaves and have the police knocking on my door.
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post #26 of 57
6/22/11 at 10:39am
IMO, the ONLY reason to perform surgery on an animal is for their benefit or the benefit of their species. This includes piercing, docking, etc.
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post #27 of 57
6/22/11 at 11:59am
Fair enough, but when a teenager gets her ears pierced though, do you usually say "good luck with the surgery"? Its generally a five minute affair w/ a quick pinch. Again, not that I'm defending the ridiculously massive weights attached to that poor kitty's ears, just the concept of making piercings illegal versus on a case-by-case basis. And most indoor kitties live a life of luxury compared to the alternatives (stray that will live for 3-4 yrs full of parasites and hunger, or facing euthanasia by animal control in a shelter), so surgery that makes kitties enticing to owners is a gray area IMO since that's arguably in their benefit.
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post #28 of 57
6/22/11 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Fair enough, but when a teenager gets her ears pierced though, do you usually say "good luck with the surgery"? Its generally a five minute affair w/ a quick pinch. Again, not that I'm defending the ridiculously massive weights attached to that poor kitty's ears, just the concept of making piercings illegal versus on a case-by-case basis. And most indoor kitties live a life of luxury compared to the alternatives (stray that will live for 3-4 yrs full of parasites and hunger, or facing euthanasia by animal control in a shelter), so surgery that makes kitties enticing to owners is a gray area IMO since that's arguably in their benefit.
Teens at least want to wear jewelry. Plenty of them have had infections or allergies from piercings. As for animals, even IF it were painless, it is not without risk. An uncomfortable earring, regardless of size, could easily cause a cat to dig at it and become infected.
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post #29 of 57
6/22/11 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Fair enough, but when a teenager gets her ears pierced though, do you usually say "good luck with the surgery"? Its generally a five minute affair w/ a quick pinch. Again, not that I'm defending the ridiculously massive weights attached to that poor kitty's ears, just the concept of making piercings illegal versus on a case-by-case basis. And most indoor kitties live a life of luxury compared to the alternatives (stray that will live for 3-4 yrs full of parasites and hunger, or facing euthanasia by animal control in a shelter), so surgery that makes kitties enticing to owners is a gray area IMO since that's arguably in their benefit.
Teenagers are not kittens.

Cats get out and lost. Cats get dumped. Where do you think all those strays come from? Irresponsible people. "Goth" kittens are just as likely to be dumped and let out. With an even higher risk of injury because of their 'adornments'.

Suggesting that kittens with piercings will help alleviate the homeless cat problem is a ridiculous argument.

Where did these kittens come from that she was piercing? You think she was adopting shelter kittens and trying to make them more adoptable so they could find homes, so to help the shelters? I highly doubt it, she most likely was breeding them herself.

And those (deliberately bred) kittens were offered for sale, they were not rescued strays up for adoption.
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post #30 of 57
6/22/11 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kailie View Post
I agree with this 100%. If it were to benefit the health and wellbeing of the animal in some way fine, otherwise leave them alone. This is just torture and unnecessary.

I can't see any good reason for piercing cats ears/neck/tail whatever, it's just stupid. Even if it would be indoor-only, there are numerous things the piercing could get caught, all textiles for example, scratching tree ropes (sisal usually) etc. I can't say much about docking, it's illegal in this country but some dog people take their dogs to Estonia which is very near and get it done over there where it's still allowed. I can't see any good reason for doing this to a cat either unless a medical situation requires it.

I myself have tattoos and piercings but I would never do that to my pet, they don't even wear collars.

Another thing that irks me is the term 'goth kitten'. What in the world makes it gothic? Piercings aren't gothic, a cat itself isn't gothic, I can't see anything except a stupid thing made up to get more money.
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