Giving the same amount of food each day?

So, I've been giving Grim around 1 can per day for his weight loss. Problem is, he's reached a plateau. I can't get him under 18lbs, he hasn't changed weight in quite a while.
I thought that I'd be okay giving one can per day, but not all cans are the same. :/ When I feed the Innova large cans, it's hard to tell how much I'm giving him, and I think thats part of the problem. Probably if I fed him Before Grain every day, he'd start to lose again, but I'm sure he'd get bored of the food fast.
So my questions are:
1. Do I need to start counting calories?
Like looking at the back of the can and going 'okay, there are 200 calories in this 6oz can, so he only gets 5oz today' and then dishing that out. If so, how do I measure out the 5oz? The only way I can think of is to save an empty can, dish out an amount into that can, weigh it on the scale, and then add or remove until its the right size and then feed him from that.
2. Should I stick to one brand instead? He might get bored of it, but would that be best?
3. Do you think sticking to 5.5 oz cans would be enough?

My guy who has lost 3 lbs. since December has only 1 oz. of Natural Balance canned per day for his one canned meal a day. He hasn't gotten tired of it at all. He, along with my other cats, also get 1/4 cup (scant) of Wellness Healthy Weight two times a day. Since he has access to 4 bowls, each with 1/4 cup of this, he actually gets all he wants of this, until it is gone.

At 15 lbs., his weight loss is slowing. I am reluctant to give him less canned food, but I may have to if I want him to get down to 14 lbs. or less. He is comfortable with what we've been doing. He never acts excessively hungry, though he is ready at meal times.

Robin

Increasing wet and decreasing dry will help with his weight loss but thanks for sharing!

Unfortunately, less dry food isn't possible. My other cats would suffer. It will have to be less canned food if he is going to lose that last 1~1.5 lbs.

Incidently, he got so overweight when he had access to the other cats' canned food bowls. He would finish up what they left. Besides the lower calorie food, keeping him from the other bowls has allowed his weight loss.

Robin

No, what I'm saying is that increasing wet HELPS with weight loss. If you reduce wet, more than likely your cat's weight loss will reverse and he will start to gain again.

Dry + his wet + other cat's wet will make him gain, of course, but wet itself is not the enemy when it comes to weight loss. Read catinfo.org if you haven't yet.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. However when you live with multiple cats, you sometimes have to make compromises for the good of everyone.

If I reduce Claude's caloric intake, from whatever kind of food, he will continue to lose weight. Now that his body weight is 20% less than when we started his weight loss regime, he needs less calories to continue to lose weight. The ONLY way that is going to happen, with the needs of my other cats to consider, is to reduce Claude's canned food portion. It won't be forever, but for the next few months.

Robin

Originally Posted by bastetservant

If I reduce Claude's caloric intake, from whatever kind of food, he will continue to lose weight.

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This is not true however. Quality of those calories dictates how the body processes them. 150 calories of McDonalds is not the same as 150 calories of baked chicken or 150 calories of fruit and nuts.

Originally Posted by Minka

This is not true however. Quality of those calories dictates how the body processes them. 150 calories of McDonalds is not the same as 150 calories of baked chicken or 150 calories of fruit and nuts.

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Nutritional value may be different among various foods, but a calorie is a calorie.

Robin

I'm done talking about this. I want input on my questions, not yours.

Feeding your cat less calories will result in weight loss. That is the answer to your question. You can use a food scale to measure the amount, based on the caloric content listed on the cans.

I didn't actually have a question. I thought we were having a discussion, which is something you indicated you valued, on another thread. I was sharing my knowledge and experience regarding weight loss in cats.

Robin

Originally Posted by Minka

So my questions are:
1. Do I need to start counting calories?
Like looking at the back of the can and going 'okay, there are 200 calories in this 6oz can, so he only gets 5oz today' and then dishing that out. If so, how do I measure out the 5oz? The only way I can think of is to save an empty can, dish out an amount into that can, weigh it on the scale, and then add or remove until its the right size and then feed him from that.
2. Should I stick to one brand instead? He might get bored of it, but would that be best?
3. Do you think sticking to 5.5 oz cans would be enough?

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1. I don't know if I would be as concerned about calories, as I would be about carb levels. If you email a company and ask, they will give you the carb levels in their food, I emailed a lot of companies last night asking this and several have given me that. Before Grain is very low carb (can't give out exact numbers, the email is "confidential"), and I think is fairly low calorie, compared to other 95% foods. You mentioned this food, so that is why I'm using it as an example

2. I'd still rotate brands/flavors. Cats need variety just like us. I personally would get very sick of eating the same food every day - why should they be any different

3. You could see if you could find a scale like this one:



I have a few of those (one for each place I feed cats at) that I got for $1 at second hand stores. They do work well, and go up to one pound, which is more than enough when you just need to know a few ounces. Unfortunately, that picture is making me crave fresh strawberries, I may just have to go to a U-Pick place down the road and get some

Or, look for high quality foods that are around 200 calories (or whatever calorie amount you are aiming for) per can. Then you wouldn't have to measure it out.

3b. Another idea: I looked up the amount of calories for Before Grain can, they have that on their website. It is between 135-157 calories per can (depending on the flavor). Over three days, lets say that he needs 600 calories (200 calories per day). Since on average there are 146 calories per can of Before Grain, it would take four cans to equal 584 calories. Canned food, IMO, can keep for three days in the fridge. So one day give 1 can of a flavor of BG plus 1/3 can of a different flavor for variates sake. Day 2 give another can of a different flavor, and another third of the can that is left over from day 1. Day 3 give another full can, and finish off the leftovers from Day 1. Then, at least over three days time, the calories will even out. Plus, this would provide a variety of flavors.

Innova Cat & Kitten, the other brand you mentioned, is 518 calories for a 13.2 ounce can, which I think is the can size you have. You could use one large can of Innova and 2 cans of Before Grain over four days time. Over four days, it would be 810 calories. So day 1 give roughly 1/2 a can of Innova. Day 2 give a can of Before Grain. Day 3 give the remainder of Innova. Day 4 give a can of Before Grain. Although Day 1 & 3 is a higher calorie intake than Day 2 & 4, I personally do think that balance over time is going to work as well. If one the Before Grain days, your cat acts like he is still too hungry, you could try mix some water in with the food to make it seem like more. Again, that plan would provide a variety of both two different brands, and possibly then three different flavors of foods, over four days.

BTW, though I assume you already know this Minka, the lower calorie foods tend to be higher in carbs and lower in protein/fat. It is something I personally would avoid

I hope this helps, and doesn't confuse you to much

You mentioned, somewhere else, that you were feeding 145 calories per day when he quit being able to lose weight. At least, that is, if I am not just confusing myself with someone else!

Probably, you would want to try decrease the calorie level by 10-15% at first. I'm going to do the calculation to decrease the calorie level by 15%. 145*0.15=21.75. So you need roughly 22 less calories per day then your feeding now or 123 calories per day.

Before Grain Potential Feeding Plan:
Before Grain, if you are feeding a variety of the different flavors, is roughly 145 calories per 5.5 ounce can or 80 calories per 3 ounce can. Two 5.5 ounce cans of Before Grain + one 3 ounce can of Before Grain = 370 calories over three days OR on average 123.33 calories per day.

Day 1: a bit less than half a 5.5 ounce can of Before Grain + one 3 ounce can of Before Grain - just use your own judgement, no need to weigh.

Day 2: Remainder of the 5.5 ounce can from Day 1 + 1/4 of a 5.5 ounce can

Day 3: 3/4 of a 5.5 ounce can of Before Grain

If he acts extra hungry, mix water in with the canned, to make him feel fuller.

Innova Potential Feeding Plan

A 13.2 ounce can of Innova has 518 calories. You are aiming for 123 calories per day.

So, this one is tougher, since canned food realistically can only keep for three days in the fridge. I don't know if it would work to freeze a bit of canned, then thaw and feed later? I'll assume you can, but whether you feel comfortable with that idea, is up to you.

1/4 of a 13.2 ounce can of Innova provides 129.5 calories.

Day 1: 1/4 can of Innova
Day 2: 1/4 can of Innova
Day 3: 1/4 can of Innova
Day 4: 1/4 can of Innova

The catch: you would need to freeze 1/4 of a can so it wouldn't go bad. You could experiment with this though - try letting it freeze half way and then thaw in the fridge. See if it stays good for long enough that way.

Before Grain + Innova Potential Feeding Plan

This could be used as a menu for a weeks time.

Day 1: 1/4 can of Innova

Day 2: 1/4 can of Innova

Day 3: 1/4 can of Innova

Day 4: 1/4 can of Innova

Day 5: a bit less than half a 5.5 ounce can of Before Grain + one 3 ounce can of Before Grain - just use your own judgement, no need to weigh.

Day 6: Remainder of the 5.5 ounce can from Day 1 + 1/4 of a 5.5 ounce can

Day 7: 3/4 of a 5.5 ounce can of Before Grain

With that feeding plan, over a weeks time, the calorie intake would be 888 calories. Or, on average over 7 days, it would be 126.86 calories per day. IMO, that is close enough to 123 calories to work out

It would then provide two different brands and 6 different varieties of proteins if you wanted. You could use three different flavors of BG (the turkey, chicken & quail, and the beef if you want to avoid fish flavors). Innova uses chicken, turkey, egg, and herring as protein sources.

I hope this helps

Hi Minka,

Here's what I think, counting calories is way too much work and I likely pointless. Following a feeding guide should be enough. I not very familiar with the brands your feeding, however what I do know is that many diet foods don't work or actually cause weight gain because they replace fat and protein with carbs.

Here's an interesting link: http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/e...reducing_diets

I would say try a high quality diet (high protein and fat) and if your kitty isn't eating it anymore mix it up a bit with a little bit of dry or alternative flavours if applicable, and slowly decrease the quantity as recommended by the brand (each brand is different). Also providing your cat with plenty of exercise is key. I have an overweight kitty as well and an underweight one so its a constant battle in my household to get one to eat more and the other to eat less so I know how you feel. Good luck!

FURRYFRIENDS50 - I was actually quite disappointed with the amount of carbs in Before Grain. (Unless the figures the company gave you were different.) I calculated out only 40.9% protein, 27.2% fat and a whopping 25.6% for ash/carbs. Compare that to Innova which is 50% meat, 31.8% fat and a measly 6.9% carbs. And that's what I feed so carbs are not a concern whatsoever. I only mentioned that he would lose weight on it because then he'd always get exactly the same amount of calories each day.

How would I go about weighing the food in a scale such as that?

While I appreciate you going over numbers and figuring this stuff out, if I gave him one can of Innova or 259 calories, in a day, Grimalkin would turn into a whale before he even knew what hit him. xDD
I'd also rather not give him a lot one day and then not enough the next because he'd get spoiled and try to kill me in my sleep. xD

And yes, I know about low calorie foods, but thanks for being thoughtful.

I honestly feel so bad that you took all that time to do all those calculations when it's not that I need to reduce his calories at this point, but more that with feeding so many types/size cans of food, that I was over-feeding him. (Aka he was getting way more than 145 calories per day as an example) I just need a way to be able to measure out a day's worth of calories when the can I'm feeding from =/= the amount he needs.


(Note: the Before Grain I have now is what is left over from when I ordered 3 cases of it. As soon as I run out, I won't be feeding it anymore.)


VIOLETXX - I guess I should have mentioned in my first post that I am not feeding a diet food, but like you mentioned, a high protein low carb diet. Also, if I went by the guidelines on the can, Grimalkin would be a whale. xP

Minka, it is fine that I took the time to do that! I was bored, and need to practice my math so I can pass the entrance test for the tech school I am trying to get into My brain is not used to even thinking the whole numbers thing anymore - and doing that is better than doing pre-calc problems that I get to try figure out tomorrow It was a good "warm up"

The numbers that Merrick (aka Before Grain company) gave me are actually very low. Unfortunately, the email is considered private, and it says I am not allowed to copy anything from it. However, you could email them and ask for the carb percentage in a DMB, they got back to me within a day

For that scale, you could take an empty can, put it on the scale, and set the scale back to zero. Then put wet food into the can until you get the number of ounces you want. Although I prefer digital scales for preparing my cats food, the scales that just go up to 1 lb work out well for measuring things like wet food, which is something I have to do for Nightmare, when he is getting a 13 ounce can over three days.

BTW, using the nutrient analysis for the Innova Cat & Kitten wet food which is found on their site, I calculated 11% carbs on a DMB

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Minka, it is fine that I took the time to do that! I was bored, and need to practice my math so I can pass the entrance test for the tech school I am trying to get into

My brain is not used to even thinking the whole numbers thing anymore - and doing that is better than doing pre-calc problems that I get to try figure out tomorrow

It was a good "warm up"

The numbers that Merrick (aka Before Grain company) gave me are actually very low. Unfortunately, the email is considered private, and it says I am not allowed to copy anything from it. However, you could email them and ask for the carb percentage in a DMB, they got back to me within a day

For that scale, you could take an empty can, put it on the scale, and set the scale back to zero. Then put wet food into the can until you get the number of ounces you want. Although I prefer digital scales for preparing my cats food, the scales that just go up to 1 lb work out well for measuring things like wet food, which is something I have to do for Nightmare, when he is getting a 13 ounce can over three days.

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Do think you could give me their email? Whatever one I tried they never replied to.. :/
Do you think if I just filled the can to where it was originally, that would be accurate enough? xD

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

BTW, using the nutrient analysis for the Innova Cat & Kitten wet food which is found on their site, I calculated 11% carbs on a DMB

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How are you calculating it? You have to take the numbers from the can, divide by the DMB and then times by 100.
So 11% protein /22% x 100 = 50%
7% fat /22% x 100 = 31.8%
1.5% fiber = 6.8%
.64% Linoleic Acid = 2.9%
.025% Magnesium = .1%
.08% Taurine = .4%
.18% Omega 3 = .8%
.067% EPA + DHA = .3%

50+31.8+6.8+2.9+.1+.4+.8+.3 = 93.1
6.9% for carbs are left over.

This is the official method listed here: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosi...-matter-basis/ and when I did the calculations on another food this way on another forum, they were confirmed as being correct.

http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=34 is where I got the information from. I used the "Nutrient Analysis" that they gave. Remember - the guaranteed analysis is just that - guaranteed. The gave the minimum protein amount so it can be higher. They give the maximum moisture amount so it can be lower than the number given in the guaranteed analysis.

I am just using the carbohydrates amount they give in the nutrient analysis, and the moisture amount they give.

Carbohydrates: 2.95 %
Moisture: 73.34 %

Step One
100-73.34=26.76

Step Two
2.95/26.76=0.110239

Step Three
0.110239*100=11.0239%

Copy/paste from http://www.innovapet.com/faqs.asp?view=analysis

What does the Guaranteed Analysis (GA) tell me?
The guaranteed analysis is a specific set of nutritional information required by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) to be printed on pet food labels. The guaranteed analysis states minimum or maximum nutritional values for a particular set of nutrients for a specific product. This provides information that pet owners, professionals, retailers, and veterinarians need to know when making decisions about the food and the amount to offer. Refer to naturapet.com for a complete list of all nutrients.



What does the Nutrient Analysis (NA) tell me?
The listing of the NA is much more comprehensive than the guaranteed analysis (GA). It often mirrors the AAFCO nutrient profiles. Some companies may also provide an abbreviated listing of these nutrients or computations to express the nutrients on a different basis, e.g. dry matter or metabolizable energy basis.



Will the Guaranteed Analysis and the Nutrient Analysis be exactly the same?
This listing of nutrient information may look slightly different than the GA. For example, the GA may list minimum protein % as 24, but the NA reports 24.53%. The difference is due to the fact that the formula is predicted to be slightly over the minimum so that the consumer gets equal to or more than they are guaranteed to receive.

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11% isn't that high and is still lower than Before Grain though....

And 100 minus 73.34 equals 26.66

Originally Posted by Minka

11% isn't that high and is still lower than Before Grain though....

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Did you get my PM, I sent you the carb percentages for BG on a DMB, the numbers are much lower than you think