Help! Dog person trying to help friendly stray momma & kittens

Hi Terri

Bless her she sounds scared, so you have to have patience with her. Your working with her and her babies and that's what counts, because she has to gain some trust in you, but by sitting in the room with her and socialising with her your on the right path.

Keep looking in because the more experienced members on strays and ferals will be on later

Welcome to the Forums!

You are doing marvellously well!
Im happy her health problems are better, as I understand something went wrong after her spaying, she prob got an infection in the wound, right?

She hisses when you are standing, but wants your company when you are down? Entirely natural, when you are standing you have a threating posture... It will be better with time. As now, do sit down in this room, pet her, read aloud, have your computer and work with it.
this behavior will also help her kittens.
Pet the mom and this pet-friendly kitten so the sibliings are seeing this.
they will take example.

Beware of looking into the eyes, look a little aside. Or if you look - blink slowly now and then. do yawn, you can also strech yourself forwards or backwards, like friendly cats do.
She is no real ferale, she is surely dumped or astray.
but her kittens are semi-ferale...

Is there any problems of quarantine? If not, and your dog is cat friendly, you can look and see how they react to dogs.

If they are afraid (they may be, loose dogs are a big danger for homeless cats) - dont let them meet as yet. And dont go to her directly after you petted the dog... she smells dog from you.

But if she seems to accept the dog - you can use dogs as the positive, reinforcing example too!

In practice, many dogs and cats are good friends with each other. And there are thus not so few examples of dog being the protector and ambassadeour of adopted semiferal cat.

Let others fill in!

Good luck!

WELCOME TO TCS!! WOW!!!! I am so impressed with all of your efforts and accomplishments with this family of cats, especially if you are a dog person. You are doing great! Mom is a friendly cat for sure, and the hissing IS only because #1 she still has some hormones in her system (it can take about a month or so) #2 She could be frightened when you stand up and move about which in turn makes her protective of herself and her kittens. and/or #3 she was someone's lost pet and reverted to become a bit feral having to survive on her own for who knows how long . At this point, I might move that crate containing her kittens out of that room for a few days and just dote on her and give her lots of special attention. Also, the hissing/growling at her kittens when she returned from her spay was because she was DONE with nursing and was in some pain from her spay incision so was warning them to stay away. You did the right thing by separating them.

It is a bit complicated at the moment, because you want to work with the mom cat without the kittens around. And, visa versa, work with the kittens without the mom cat around and getting protective of them. We don't want the kittens to react to her growling at you because she is just naturally being protective. Do you have a another small room/bathroom where the kittens could stay for about a week? During that time I would spend time with each kitten and the mom separately. You could of course, bring in a kitten or two in the mom's room each day and work with them together, as long as mom doesn't still get to worked up. Mom cat will calm down quickly in the next week or two. You just have to be very patient and calm, once mom gets settled into a routine and schedule, she will be very appreciative of you and your care. I really think this will work out and you won't have to return them back outside. It was just incredibly nice of you to gather them all up and get them S/N. Maybe you could contact a local rescue and get the ball rolling to find homes for them . We are here to support you anyway we can . Much luck

Reader must remember that my experience is limited and I may have false impression, if I'm mistaken I hope some more experienced one can point that out.

Smell, cats communicate with smell, or odor, what would be clear term, human can't smell it but they can, now one thing to understand is that cat has not very good eye sight, they see movement and they adapt to changes in light, also to dark, but they can't separate colours too well, some colours are better than others, but also they can't see well very close neither they can't separate objects at great distance, eyesight is only 4th sense for them, where we rely mostly on our eyesight.

This leads to situation where cat trust more what it hears than what it sees, also cat trusts more what it feels than what it sees and yet cat trust more what it smells than what it sees.

Now little ones have different scent because of vet visit and changes in hormone production + add to that how mother cat has pains when returned from vet, so this all leads easily to situation where scared, maybe even terrified mother cat does not regonize her own kittens and is going to survival mode as she thinks she is injured because of pain and thinking kittens are unknown to her.

It probably takes few days that things settle and mother cat learns kittens being her own because of sounds and behavior etc.

With my Mauku first days were so that she did not regonize her kittens at all, she was really scared of them, but she remembered after seeing little ones act in familiar manner, so what I have read and experienced has lead me to conclusion that they seem not to trust they eyes too much. I see it every day, when I give treats they use their paw to touch treat, get feel of it, they sniff it, sometimes toss it a bit to hear sound it makes, then slightly taste it and if all tests are passed it is safe to assume it is a treat.

Looking to tail is easiest for me, but if I accidently look to eyes, I slowly close my eyes and turn head side, it is sign of trust and affection which helps in getting trust, open palm is bad, keeping fingers curled is better and defineatly going on your knees and walking on your fours seem to be helping at least with my cats. One thing is to keep your toes pointing away from cat, they look a lot where your feet is pointing, no pointing cat with toes, that helps them to relax.

Hands close to body is better, putting hands high is a threat.

Fiddling with piece of paper that is on your hand is great tool, they seem to thing that my whole focus is in that and they clearly think it is not at all threatening, while empty hand hanging on side seem to keep them alerted.

Audible breathing is also bad, saying uh oh is much better than releasing air trough nose so that it makes sound.

Tilting head to side says "I'm curious and interested of what I look", but I doubt that it is possible to use that in such little time, there needs to be some trust and bond for it to be any good, but when there is that seem to result cat exporing that two legged monster and why he/she is so curious, it is even possible to get them to walk to point one looks when bond gets stronger.

What else, oh yes, anything which makes sound like paper when you wiggle it is good, it steals their attention from you and they are not so focused into you making them again more relaxed and curious rather than reserved, this might depend a bit if mother cat is mouser or bird catcher.

Week goes very quick when trying to remember all the different rules and ways of cat and how to appear not so much a threat to her, sometimes I feel like my brain would turn upside down when trying to read cat's tail/whiskers/ears/eyes/body posture while making my own body to act against what for me as human is most natural, but it is rewarding

Of course it is not necessarily to do it all, every tiny bit helps.

Good luck with them

I think she begins to settle down! that is why she didnt hissed any more.
Btw. Being homeless, she surely met both friendly and unfriendly people. The friendly ones tend to sit down or bend down to her. the unfriendly did always towered high above her making angry noises... Thus - towering - may be a threat - hiss, hiss. Sitting down - probably friendly, lets try out...
Let her have a scratching post. It is by itself reducting the stress. some cat nip scent may be good, but beware of too much catnip!

some drawback like this are unevitable. but next step forward will be easier.
A tip may be, if you have anything unpleasant to do, even clipping nails: take her in a thick big towel, so she will be totally helpless (and without any hurt). Much easier than to hold them with force!
And no negative effects.
Holding by the neck may also be useful. Although do not bear a grown up by the neck... It can perhaps be done with a kitten, like mother cat does, but dangerous with a grown up cat. Held up the bottom simultaneously.

The hostile dogs. If you do adopt the cat(s), they will get used, and accept with time the new group member. They see you the pack leader do accept them, they have now smells of you and the pack, they do belong into the house and the pack . thus perhaps not best friends, but they do belong to the pack theym too. Your dogs will probably even protect them against foreing dogs. With time.
Of course, make precautions, and keep an eye, but the problem will be solved.

Allergy is not nice, especielly if it is severe asthma.
But there are tips for this too, it if will come to this.
Quite many cat owners do have cat allergy, but they learn to copy with that.
Many do get also used to their own cats.
Of course, again - if it is severe asthma, I dont advise to experiment - that is the exception.
And - the cats mommas duty is to try to help and protect her own kittens.
And so is yours - being nice and helpsome is great, but your foremost duty is to help and protect your own children...


Good luck!

Catnip is something I have different experiences, it is not so good with some cats, they seem to become aggressive and seem to think everything as a threat, but only happens with some cats, my previous one had this kind of effect, but current three don't have much of any reaction at all.

Hang in there, you are doing great. By not looking directly at her and just moving a bit slow is fine. I wouldn't crouch down too much, that might look suspicious in her eyes.. Can you move the kitten's crate somewhere else for a few days as I suggested in my earlier post?? That will help her come down from her protective state. She is completely freaked out a bit at the moment. Being in a strange place, her kittens in a cage, and she is quite scared. Don't worry, she will be a different cat as the days go on. You have to be very patient and just keep a regular schedule going with her. If you can, I would move the kittens to another room. If the kitten's keep seeing her hiss at you, then they will see you as a threat and take her lead.

There is a product called Feliway sold at petstores. The plug-in diffuser is about $30.00 and the Feliway spray which is a bit cheaper and will last a bit longer than the diffuser. The diffuser will work for almost a month but keep watch on the level of the pheromone and change it out when it is almost empty. The spray you have to use at about cat nose height on objects in the room, corner of a chair, corner of a bed, bookcase, etc. It has to be sprayed, a couple of spritz is all, about every twelve hours. Pheromones are the natural facial hormones that cat's use to mark happy places. So when they smell the Feliway they feel more inclined to stay relaxed, comforted and safe. I would recommend this to try for her in that room. In the days to come she will start to relax and calm. She just needs time. And, yes, she can tell if you are nervous and that will not help the situation. Just pretend she is a puppy that is not socialized instead of a cat. Might help Good luck!!!

p.s. NO catnip at the moment, if it does have an effect on her at this time, it won't be a good one!!!!

Her swatting you with soft paw isntead of clawing is another step forward... Swatting with soft paw is their normal teaching mode to pals, friendly toms, her own kittens. Even some hissing may be OK... There is "dutifully" hissing and there is angry, serious warning hissing...
I hope these hisses are more and more "dutiful".

surprising often, taking in a semiferale mom with kittens may be almost easier than fosterig a semiferale. When the mom has landed, and recognizes nobody is mean nor threating, and this is after all, a good place for her kittens, she copies... Cat moms are like human moms. the welfare of her kittens is the most important, not "freedom". So as soon they recognize this is an improvement over how it was, and the probably the best practical chance for her kittens, she copies. Usually also allowing the fosterer to handle the kittens, pet them etc, as long is it done respectfully etc...
But she must land first.

So her protective reaction still after several days - quite natural, but yet - puzzles me a little. I hope I can think this out.

Yes, if you can get this Feliway it should help some. Most fosters dont bother, but is a nice plan B to have...

You can also / and play soft music. Classical Harp music is best they say, but almost any, soft, calming music is good.


Good luck!

By all means, then keep her in that room and spend as much time loving on her if she is accepting that. If the kittens are watching, excellent. If mom hisses as you go to the crate, just totally ignore her and keep on your path. Don't hesitate at all !! She will soon learn, and quickly, that you are not going to harm the kittens in anyway.

I would not move the kittens crate into that laundry room, where the dogs/boys might frighten them even more and then mom cat might get even more upset about where her kittens went to and if the dogs are bothering them. If you had another quiet place to separate them, then I would do that. But.. since you don't, make do with what you have !! All will work out just fine, it is just time and patience :. I am feeling certain that in another week's time you will be reporting good progress

I would think that playing might be bit early, she needs to calm down first so that she does not see toy as a threat as she probably is not seeing.

Try not to pay any attention to her for few days, just keeping routine of changing water and giving food, she will not try to paw you that way, even she would hiss and growl, she is not going to attack when you are not paying any attention to her or walking close to her.

One thing with wild animals and also cats is that they are not ok with approaching directly, zigzag is better, so not going directly to cat but going one direction which leads you closer then other direction which still leads you closer, surely she tells when you are enough close in her opinion.

Mother protection her kittens is not caring much for herself, so she is capable of such things what she has done now, but probably will not normally do much else than hide under the sofa/bed/whatever she finds.

They don't do severe damage unless they are afraid for their life, surely claws do hurt quite a bit, but they will just give warning, to get bitten will require some forceful handling, so when keeping 3 feet of distance it would be very rare to get full attack, so even she makes such sounds there is nothing to be really afraid of as long as one is keeping bit of distance and respecting cat + not giving challenging or aggressive signals to cat, imo.

Deep throat sound when growling/hissing is signal to back off, 'normal' hissing is not much more than informative, surely strong vocal, but hardly even yelling.

There are similarities with cats and dogs, but there are differences too, for dog one can be a master and teach dog to his place, but for cat it is not possible, their brains are such that I think only way to work with them is to work with their conditions, by earning their trust and after that start work with bonding etc. That is at least my experience with ferals. Also tail signals can be confusing, where dog tells interest same by cat is annoyance.

Because of all this, I would not except huge leaps in first month, it takes time for them to make their judgement, but when they have learned that you are not going to eat them, things will move a lot faster, but if there is only limited time, then of course there is not much to do about it, for a week, I would think that it is best to have them have their space and quite bit of privacy to settle a bit for their surroundings, so move to new place would be bit easier.

My two come now to beg petting, but mother cat still keeps her distance and it has been many months she has been sharing upstairs with me, even with kittens there still are some days where they prefer not to be petted and might even stay hiding most of the day, before capturing them I was almost at touching level, and it took months to get back to that level after capturing them, so capturing tends to change things a bit and it really takes a long time for them to learn trust.

She is funny cat, hate/love syndrome

I find this rather good reading, there are also some illustrations and photos to help better to gasp what they talk about:
http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm

This is kind of library really, lot of reading, ton of info:
http://www.messybeast.com/catarchive.htm

Great to see that they also got site back up, it was down some time.


There is three parts in this video, gives lot of helpful tips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpEcxIgMhyQ

Those have been one of the greatest sources + this site, there is menu at top of this pages, there is cat behavior and cat health links, worth to check out.

Hope this helps at least a bit

Hi terri. Ouch, sorry Phoebe got you . In regards to Barbara, the good news is that Phoebe is not afraid of strangers. Did Barbara go to the kittens cage? How did Phoebe react to that? She seems like a very sweet girl, EXCEPT when it comes to anyone going in the cage to care for the kittens. Does she eat with you in the room? If so, I would feed her right before you are going to attend to the kittens and see if that will keep her busy while you clean and feed the kittens. I know this is difficult at the moment, but I think each day you are making progress with her. Isn't your neighbor going to take her soon? Ideally, that would be the best solution is to separate her from the kittens if at all possible. She will truly be a sweet cat, away from her babies. Again, more vibes and good luck! You are doing such a wonderful thing for this little family

She seem to be very protective of her kittens, but that in theory should ease off by itself as kittens grow.

I wonder if she has some trauma from previous litter and that is why she would be so protective? She will learn that you are not going to harm her kittens, but it might take quite some time. She has had home at some point, not too long time ago because she purrs and is like ordinary housecat.

Now I think that Mauku was an easy one as she did not really bother even if I was with kittens and she was outside, she might get a peek to warehouse but never bothered to come in actually, but then again kittens knew how to hide if they felt scared.

It is surprising how much they actually can understand, maybe not exact meaning, but more of tone of message, I often ask questions from mine and while they might not understand what I ask, they become very curious, so at least it makes them interested

Last night I got several cuts, too short string, but nothing needing cleaning, hopefully it will not happen again.

You have these kittens, about 10 weeks old, in a cage, right?

Why had you done so? I can imagine it was the best here, but tell it yourself.

May be it is why she is so (over) protective? She cant pet themn nor snuggle with them, nor wash them, so it makes her touchy, and - the only she can do is to try and protect them...

Maybe?

What do you thinks, folks?

Stefan, it seems possible to me.

Nigelguy, just wanted to say thanks for taking on these cats despite the dogs and such until the foster home opens up the space for them!

Stefan, I thought of the same thing . Good idea. Maybe the kittens should be loose in the room with mom. Worth a try she might not be so protective then. And now she should be recovered from her spay and will be able to manage the kittens.

Interesting other can freely access the kittens, but you only barely.
But it can be quite simple. They are used with cats, Sue certainly is. And you not.
At exhibitions/shows, it is wellknown it is often a big advantage if an assistent bears forward the cat to the judge, not the owner. Unless the owner is very experienced breeder. Because the assistent is almost always an experienced cat person, the owner is usually an amateur, having this cat as family pet.
Im sure such is also in the dog world.


About the kittens.
I understand it is much easier to have the kittens in a cage, but still, somthing in this isnt not optimal. 14 weeks kittens in a cage?
You are the pilot here, so you must make all the essential decisions. But:

I want almost to plead you do change your mind. Please.



(About the initial hissing of mom after the spaying. After it she got lethargic no? so it shows she must have got an infection, and the wound was surely hurting when touched. This is why she was hissing at them. In THIS situation it was necessary to separate them, yes. Although I would perhaps put the mom into the cage, and let the kittens roam the room.)


Good luck!

If mother cat did see that you put kittens to cage, she might get funny ideas about that one too.

I have found out that when my cats want something they come to rub their head against me, but it is not necessarily that they want something when they do it, now I'm thinking that maybe your mother cat is trying to get you to set kittens free to room?

There are many other reasons of course, sometimes it might be something else that she has connected to you and is afraid that such happens to kittens, they do look things bit differently.

My mother cat is still hissing and growling to kittens, if they get near to her, but it is sometimes only now, at beginning she did not recognize kittens at all as they were separated bit of time plus neutering and spaying changes how they smell, so it took time but they have got it sorted now more or less.

Kittens perhaps feel now safe in cage, so it might be possible to leave door open and let them get know while watching over?

Interesting revelation about Sue and Barbara with Phoebe. I really think that Phoebe just feels your slight nervousness and then reacts.

As for the kittens, I would start leaving the cage door open. The reason Phoebe hissed at them was she was telling them to back off, no more nursing. She will also be hissing/growling at them if they or overly playful with her or irritating her. Don't mind this at all. It is her job to teach them some manners too. Take away all hiding places in that room. If you have a bed in there, can you put the bed on the floor, take away the bed frame? I did this in my foster room so I would be able to socialize any cats and was able to reach and pet them with ease. The kittens might even choose to go in their cage when you come in to feed.

Now, if you don't feel comfortable in letting them out yet, than don't. They will be fine still in cage as this is only temporary anyway, right? Arn't you looking for someone to take the kittens soon? You mentioned your neighbor. More good vibes coming your way today

Harp music is good to calm them down, talk station for getting used to human sounds, just make sure it is very quiet volume, they hear a lot easier than us, so barely audible is quite clear sound for them.

It is great step with kittens, it is very important also to future of them to find trust to human being, great work!

I like to hum sometimes, if it is for persons own nerves or cats, either way or both, such thing helps

A radio would be just fine too. Classical music. I agree that you should not let the kittens out of that crate, especially since they are going to the neighbor on Monday. You have given them a fantastic start and on the right track to becoming friendly, loving cats