Mazy's FLUTD

All bloods are good, t-4 is back in normal range.

Urine not so great, pH back up to 7, crystals found, urine highly concentrated. So, once again, Mazy has to give up her canned, with water added, treat.

I swore I wouldn't try any more changes with her, but I keep trying every year, because I worry so much about her lack of water intake. The current change, which she loves, was 2 servings of Merrick Before Grain nightly, each serving 1/8 of a 5.5 oz can with 1/4 cup of water added, which was getting 1/2 cup of water into her daily.

Now I have to take that away from her, I am just at my wits end on how to get water into my Mazy cat.

When I try to vary her diet I always do it with my vet's knowledge, a few months before she is due for her annual urine culture.

I am looking into trying the Purina canned veterinary diet UR ST/OX to try with supplementing the c/d kibble now.

I'm so discouraged.

I apologize for asking a stupid question

The current change, which she loves, was 2 servings of Merrick Before Grain nightly, each serving 1/8 of a 5.5 oz can with 1/4 cup of water added, which was getting 1/2 cup of water into her daily.

Now I have to take that away from her, I am just at my wits end on how to get water into my Mazy cat.

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why do you have to take that away?

Because her disease is not being managed properly by adding in the non-prescription food. When she eats nothing but the c/d her urine pH is at 6.4 without crystals in it.

When I start messing with her diet, the pH jumps and the crystals come back.

She won't eat the canned c/d.

Well, if you could feed a diet of canned no grain foods - actually no grains and no vegetables (many such foods are available these days) and no dry food at all, you would never have to worry about pH. These foods naturally produce a mildly acidic pH which protects cats from urinary problems such as bacterial infections and struvites. (And to these foods it's not even necessary to add water.)
I would really like to encourage you to try such a diet.

My Muddy hated the canned C/D but loves the Purina UR.

Sending that Mazy will like it too!!

Originally Posted by Violet

Well, if you could feed a diet of canned no grain foods - actually no grains and no vegetables (many such foods are available these days) and no dry food at all, you would never have to worry about pH. These foods naturally produce a mildly acidic pH which protects cats from urinary problems such as bacterial infections and struvites. (And to these foods it's not even necessary to add water.)
I would really like to encourage you to try such a diet.

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Prescription foods help balance the PH unlike no grain foods. My Muddy can eat 1 meal a day of non-prescription canned foods, but can't take more than that. The last time I took him off of prescription, he blocked, and I was feeding a high quality food.

Living with FLUTD is maddening sometimes.

Does she like the dry CD - sounded like it. My boy just doesn't care for wet food - if I can get in a scant teaspoon into morning and evening it's a good day - but is happy with the dry. And, knock wood, no crystals have reoccurred. He drinks out the fountain and I'll leave glasses of water around, but I really think it's the dry CD that's helping I guess I'm saying maybe not be so discouraged about not being able to use the non-prescription wet, but see how the dry kibble works with whatever water she'll take, along with the other prescription wet.

PS

Just one quick but very helpful quote for you from Dr.Debra L. Zoran's article Feline Nutrition
The carnivore connection to nutrition in cats
http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html

The water needs of cats reflect their early status as desert-dwelling animals and their development as strict carnivores that obtain most of their water requirements from consumption of prey. Cats have a less sensitive response to thirst and dehydration than dogs or other omnivores, and they adjust their water intake to the dry-matter content of their diet rather than the moisture content.37 This means that cats eating commercial dry foods will consume approximately half the amount of water (in their diet and through drinking), compared with cats eating canned foods. Feeding canned foods increases water intake and urine volume; thus, it will decrease the concentration of urolith-forming minerals in the urine.

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Originally Posted by Violet

Well, if you could feed a diet of canned no grain foods - actually no grains and no vegetables (many such foods are available these days) and no dry food at all, you would never have to worry about pH. These foods naturally produce a mildly acidic pH which protects cats from urinary problems such as bacterial infections and struvites. (And to these foods it's not even necessary to add water.)
I would really like to encourage you to try such a diet.

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The canned food I was giving her is Merrick Before Grain. Nothing in it but the single protein source and the added nutrients. If I take her off the c/d, she develops very painful UTIs. If I keep her on the c/d and add a little canned every night, with water added, she gets crystals.

My other cats are on canned grain free diets. It doesn't work for Mazy, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Violet

PS

Just one quick but very helpful quote for you from Dr.Debra L. Zoran's article Feline Nutrition
The carnivore connection to nutrition in cats
http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html

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Thanks I have read this, and I do understand the nature of a cat's thirst drive. Mazy does not drink at all, which is why I am always worrying and attempting to get water into her by adding canned food. She won't eat the c/d canned.

Ironically she used to love to mess with water, knocking over water bowls (until I started using ones that don't knock over) dragging them around, splashing the water out, sitting in the sink watching the faucet run, she even used to drink from the faucet. She doesn't do any of that any more, and she just does not drink.

Now I am going to try the Purina UR canned, maybe she will eat that.

Originally Posted by Momofmany

My Muddy hated the canned C/D but loves the Purina UR.

Sending that Mazy will like it too!!

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Thanks for the support. I have told her that I am ordering a new food for her and it comes highly recommended!

Originally Posted by Momofmany

Prescription foods help balance the PH unlike no grain foods. My Muddy can eat 1 meal a day of non-prescription canned foods, but can't take more than that. The last time I took him off of prescription, he blocked, and I was feeding a high quality food.

Living with FLUTD is maddening sometimes.

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That is what I was hoping for Mazy, just that little bit every day, but apparently even that is too much.

Boy it is. I lie awake at night fretting that Mazy will develop early CRF from dehydration. And then she won't be able to eat the FLUTD foods, what will happen to her then?

Originally Posted by darlili

Does she like the dry CD - sounded like it. My boy just doesn't care for wet food - if I can get in a scant teaspoon into morning and evening it's a good day - but is happy with the dry. And, knock wood, no crystals have reoccurred. He drinks out the fountain and I'll leave glasses of water around, but I really think it's the dry CD that's helping I guess I'm saying maybe not be so discouraged about not being able to use the non-prescription wet, but see how the dry kibble works with whatever water she'll take, along with the other prescription wet.

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Thanks for your support. Mazy has been on the c/d for 5 years now. It has proven to be the only thing that keeps her healthy. My problem is my concern over her lack of water intake. Her urine was highly concentrated.

I am hoping the Purina UR will be the answer, because the worry is driving me crazy.

I hear you - Dante had some microscopic blood in his last urine draw. Based on the blood work done at the time, and how he's acting at home, they think it may be more a result of the draw itself rather than infection (thank goodness, no crystals), but I've been on high alert pee patrol. He's scheduled for another draw at the end of the month (30 days) absent any symptoms. If only they could talk more. I've been trying to get him to drink more too, but I fear stressing him if I 'chase' him too much.

Hope things resolve well and quickly for you.

Originally Posted by otto

When she eats nothing but the c/d her urine pH is at 6.4 without crystals in it.

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So the bladder is flushing adequately which means she is consuming enough moisture on a purely dry CD diet ? Sounds like prescription food mechanism is working. I'm still missing something.

One of my girls had an idiopathic bladder infection/inflammation which is fortunately much easier to manage with any old holistic canned diet. Mazy.

Originally Posted by elayman

So the bladder is flushing adequately which means she is consuming enough moisture on a purely dry CD diet ? Sounds like prescription food mechanism is working. I'm still missing something.

One of my girls had an idiopathic bladder infection/inflammation which is fortunately much easier to manage with any old holistic canned diet. Mazy.

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thank you for the vibes! I had a male cat with idiopathic cystitis, this was back in 1985. The vet told me to put him on a canned diet, no fish. I followed those instructions and Baby never had a recurrence.

Mazy is not forming crystals when only on the c/d, but her urine is still more concentrated than it should be, because she doesn't drink at all.

Her blood work numbers are all fine, so she is NOT dehydrated, but I can't seem to stop worrying about her lack of water.

I have received the suggestion elsewhere that maybe she doesn't like the taste of the well water and to try deionized ("distilled") water.

Part of my problem is, after the melamine poisoning I got educated on feline nutrition. I put all my other cats on very high quality foods, and the difference is incredible. They were all doing "just fine" before, on things like Fancy Feast, I had no idea...but the difference is like night and day.

So having Mazy be the only cat on a kibble diet drives me crazy. Since I started adding the BG, her coat has improved again, just like last time I tried her on a grain free canned diet (it was Wellness last time I tried which was a disaster)

So I do hope she likes the Purina UR ST/OX canned. I will be feeding it the same was I was feeding the BG, two meals of 1/8 of a 5.5 oz can a day with 1/4 cup of water added, she will remain on the c/d kibble as the main diet source, for now.

otto, going by your observations I'm pretty sure now that reactions to food and water are at the root of Mazy's problems. The water she's drinking may very well be one that doesn't agree with her. However, distilled water would be a very unhealthy choice, I would not recommend switching to distilled water.

The canned food I was giving her is Merrick Before Grain. Nothing in it but the single protein source and the added nutrients. If I take her off the c/d, she develops very painful UTIs. If I keep her on the c/d and add a little canned every night, with water added, she gets crystals.

My other cats are on canned grain free diets. It doesn't work for Mazy, unfortunately

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You say if you take her off the c/d, she develops very painful UTIs. Are you talking about actual bacterial infections that require treatment with an antibiotic or something else?

I'd like to ask you what other grain-free foods are you using and have tried for her and what is in those foods besides the animal protein source and nutrients? Also, what is the thickener in them? I'm looking at the one can of Before Grain chicken I have in the house and see guar and carrageenan. (Carrageenan is misspelled on the label. Not a good sign.) By the way, carrageenan is a nasty ingredient. I also see yeast extract. That's not a good ingredient either.

I believe, actually I'm convinced that a different kind of water and foods without certain ingredients will solve your problem.

Water can be a problem for some cats. (One of mine got sick from every kind of spring water but always did well on ordinary tap water.)
The mineral content of certain waters has been found to cause urinary problems in cats. Change to a different kind of water solved this problem.

There is a lot you can work with and there is no doubt in my mind that you will be able to solve this.

Thank you for your interest Violet.

I've thought and thought about the water, but she hardly drinks ANY, so I'm not sure how that can be a problem for her.

What is wrong with distilled water for cats? I've actually seen it mentioned being used for cats with FLUTD quite often. What I really mean is deionized water, de-mineralized. Are they the same? I don't know anything about it except that the deionization process removes the minerals, and that is what I want, not just for Mazy cat, but for Jennie (constipation problems).

yes, I mean bacterial UTIs. When she is off the c/d entirely, the crystals come back full force, causing irritation and pain in her urinary tract, so she washes almost continuously, which brings on the bacterial infection.

For the past three months, Mazy has been getting her c/d as her main food source with 1/4 can BG, either chicken, turkey or beef, with water added, once a day.

Before that she was on only the c/d kibble. Last year at her annual urine culture she was on the c/d kibble only, and everything was perfect with her urine except a few skin cells which were thought to be from the cystocentesis procedure.

I can't seem to learn my lesson, that keeping her strictly on the c/d ONLY is what keeps her healthy. Every 2 years or so I start to fret about her lack of water intake, even though her blood work is always fine.

She loves the c/d kibble and never complains or acts unhappy with her food. It's my own projecting, I know, that makes me want her to have canned food, because I know she really does love it (except the canned c/d of course) and I want her to be happy.

I am interested in what foods you have in mind. But do realize I have three other cats and am not well off. I already spend over $200 a month in cat food for four cats. I can't really go any higher than that.

Nor do I want to subject Mazy to repeated urine draws, every time I make a diet change.

But in the mean time I am going to try the Purina UR ST/OX, fed in the same manner I was feeding the BG, as a supplement to the c/d.

Thanks for your help Violet, I appreciate it.

Okay, water. Even if she hardly drinks any, if you add it to food.....there you are. That's plenty to create and perpetuate a problem.

Now..... there is a relationship between allergy, infections and pH. For one thing, allergy can affect pH, and allergy can also cause infections. Especially in the urinary tract. On the other hand a pH problem can affect reactions to everything. Food, water, etc. It's how the body deals with things (different for every individual) and there is nothing we can do about that except adjust our diet (and our cats' diet) to avoid problems.
(Allergy can also cause nasty, terribly painful bladder inflammation without bacteria or crystals.)

Having to feed acidified food is not normal. It's okay as a temporary solution to prevent more serious trouble, but the reason for the need of acidified food must be found and corrected. With water that has the right pH and mineral content for a cat and food that doesn't cause reactions that raise the pH, acidified food is not necessary. Trust me on this.

Distilled water.

http://truthofwater.com/answers/2008...safe-to-drink/

http://yourorganicgardeningblog.com/...safe-to-drink/

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/w...-cat-to-drink/

yes, I mean bacterial UTIs. When she is off the c/d entirely, the crystals come back full force, causing irritation and pain in her urinary tract, so she washes almost continuously, which brings on the bacterial infection.

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Clearly a pH - food ingredient problem. Water can have a role as well.

I can't seem to learn my lesson, that keeping her strictly on the c/d ONLY is what keeps her healthy.

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Only because it helps you avoid looking for the root cause of the problems and making the necessary changes that will make it possible to feed a normal diet.

Every 2 years or so I start to fret about her lack of water intake, even though her blood work is always fine.

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The lack of water intake on a dry food diet will have an effect on the kidneys as she ages, even if there is no immediately noticeable effect right now. So I completely understand why you get worried, but again, trust me on this, watering up canned food is not the answer. Canned food that is high in animal protein and has no other ingredients that will raise the pH, has a naturally, mildly acidifying effect that keeps the pH low. Added water actually has an alkalinizing effect. And if it's the wrong kind of water on top of it, the good intentions turn into a trap with bad results.

She loves the c/d kibble and never complains or acts unhappy with her food. It's my own projecting, I know, that makes me want her to have canned food, because I know she really does love it (except the canned c/d of course) and I want her to be happy.

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No, you know that she would need canned food and you're absolutely right about wanting her to have canned. She loves the dry c/d. Well, kids love candy. But that's no reason to let them have it instead of good, healthy food. You want what's best for her, you're just having trouble getting there. But you will.

I am interested in what foods you have in mind

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Actually, I wasn't thinking of trying to make any suggestions. But it would be a good starting point if you could check the ingredients in the foods your other kitties are eating and try to see which ones likely made Mazy sick. Ingredients besides the protein sources and added supplements that is.

If you look for new foods for her, they don't have to be expensive and "high-quality" to keep her healthy. They just have to produce the right low pH and any ordinary no grain/no vegetable food can do that. Also, the good thing about canned food is that cats don't need additional water and normally they don't even drink until their kidneys start aging and become less efficient. At that point one starts seeing a cat at the water bowl now and then..... and then, as time goes by, more often. The interesting thing is that, even when they start drinking on canned food, the kidney values are still perfect and they can hold steady for several more years. The canned food continues to protect the kidneys.

I'm wondering about something. Is she getting any treats? Cat treats and people foods maybe as a treat?

No treats. I don't feed commercial treats and she doens't like people food.

You say "any food" but I have had her on strictly canned food diets, and the crystals always come back. She was on a canned food diet when her problems first started before she was two. All canned cat foods have thickeners and binders, if not guar and carrageen, then you're looking at wheat gluten.

Perhaps you are correct about the water. The thing is, I can't be taking her to the vet every 6 weeks for a urine grab. It's not just about money, it's about her quality of life. I will make significant changes only a few months before she is due for her annual culture. So I have plenty of time to plan ahead for next year.

I haven't looked at the water links yet. I tried to do some searching last night on it and came across so much conflicting information that my eyes were crossing with it all, and so gave it up.

Otto, maybe I just missed it - what did the vet say to do, if anything? Her blood work is good, her pee is fine re crystals, she's not dehydrated - did I get that all right? Did the vet say to make any changes and, if so, what? I think you said you were worried that the urine was too concentrated - was the vet also worried?

I wouldn't mess with her food - every time you took her off CD you had an issue, if I read this right.

I think you might be looking for reverse osmosis or ro water, you just don't want ro/di or distilled. You can probably find bottled water that's ro at the grovery store if you want to give it a try.

Originally Posted by darlili

Otto, maybe I just missed it - what did the vet say to do, if anything? Her blood work is good, her pee is fine re crystals, she's not dehydrated - did I get that all right? Did the vet say to make any changes and, if so, what? I think you said you were worried that the urine was too concentrated - was the vet also worried?

I wouldn't mess with her food - every time you took her off CD you had an issue, if I read this right.

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Vets instructions are to feed her the c/d kibble only, nothing else, ever. And she's right, that is what Mazy does best on. It's my own worrier nature that is not happy with that.

It drives me crazy that Mazy doesn't drink. It drives me crazy to feed a cat a kibble only diet. I KNOW it's is what works for her, and I can go months being happy with it, and then I start to fret.

Not to mention, she loves that serving of wet food in water every night. I hate taking that away from her. If it's the WATER that's the culprit, perhaps, just the serving of canned without the water would be okay.

So I thought I'd try the Purina UR ST/OX canned.

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I think you might be looking for reverse osmosis or ro water, you just don't want ro/di or distilled. You can probably find bottled water that's ro at the grovery store if you want to give it a try.

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Thanks!

I couldn't find water any de-ionized (or RO for that matter) water in the grocery store today, only spring water, but there are two other stores I can look in.