I'm wondering about replies here towards dry food

Originally Posted by Ducman69

That is exactly what I was trying to say. You don't leave wet out, and its 80% water very much limiting how much can be eaten at once, so more or less forcing calorie control. Free-feeding dry on the other hand is a snap, so many people do it. Some cats will overeat though. Point is that its not inherent that dry food is fattening, just the fact that unlimited calories are available for the cat to snack on 10-20 times a day. If you portion control the dry food just the same as the wet food, your cat isn't going to get fat, its a simple calories in vs calories used equation.

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No, it is not calorie vs calorie. Not all calories are created equal. It depends on how the body uses the calories.

Calorie for calorie, if you put a cat on 210 calories a day and the calories come from animal protein that the cat was designed to eat, the cat will not get fat. If the calories come from plant matter and other carbs, the cat WILL get fat.

In addition, if free fed junky food, many cats will over eat because they are eating the wrong food, so will keep eating in an effort to get the nutrition the body craves, but is not getting, from the kibble.

Originally Posted by otto

No, it is not calorie vs calorie. Not all calories are created equal. It depends on how the body uses the calories.

Calorie for calorie, if you put a cat on 210 calories a day and the calories come from animal protein that the cat was designed to eat, the cat will not get fat. If the calories come from plant matter and other carbs, the cat WILL get fat.

In addition, if free fed junky food, many cats will over eat because they are eating the wrong food, so will keep eating in an effort to get the nutrition the body craves, but is not getting, from the kibble.

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Couldn't have said it better myself

Originally Posted by Minka

Your response completely ignores what I just said.
1.25 cups does not equal 1.25 cups of wet food. Therefor, nothing is proved by saying 'A cat doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet, so it doesn't need 1.25 cups of water.'
On top of that, with some larger breeds of cats, it is entirely possible that they Would consume 1.25 cups of wet. What then?

Also, the reason this thread has gone on is because some posts don't make any sense, the information is incorrect, etc and so some people find the need to address it.

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I really should just let this go, but you're missing the point. I understand 1.25 cups of wet food does not equal 1.25 cups of water. The point is that in eating all wet food, the cats get the required moisture they need to be well hydrated. I was just at the vet with one of our cats, and the vet confirmed what I already knew - our cats are very well hydrated.

An 8-10 pound domestic cat does not require the volume of 1.25 cups of wet food. If the cats are "very well hydrated" from eating just wet food, that in its volume is less than 1.25 cups, then there is no way they "require" 1.25 cups of water. You could say that - as you point out - because the volume of wet food is not equivalent to the same volume of water - then cats obviously require much less than 1.25 cups of water.

If "a" is larger in volume than "b," and the cats get what they need from "b," then they definitely don't require "a."

"a" is 1.25 cups of water.
"b" is the amount of water in the normal amount of wet food an 8-10 pound cat eats if on an all wet food diet.

Does that help clarify it?

Originally Posted by otto

No, it is not calorie vs calorie. Not all calories are created equal. It depends on how the body uses the calories.

Calorie for calorie, if you put a cat on 210 calories a day and the calories come from animal protein that the cat was designed to eat, the cat will not get fat. If the calories come from plant matter and other carbs, the cat WILL get fat.

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If you look at the link I provided earlier, you can see that amongst grain-free low carb kibble and quality wet, the ingredients, protein, fat, and carbohydrate percentages are very close (at times an edge to the kibble, others an edge to wet).

210 calories of nearly the same meats, protein/fat/carb %s is the same whether it was boiled in a can or baked into kibbles.

Obviously I do not disagree that not all calories are the same, but in fact have demonstrated various wet foods that use far inferior meat sources, far too much corn/soy and such fillers, and have higher carb counts than several brands of grain-free quality kibbles that I posted. And before you mention that it was an unfair comparison, note that from a cost perspective, the very premium kibble was still very cheap compared to the very low quality "cheap" wet food posted. So for someone on a budget, a mixed diet is a no-brainer IMO.

Originally Posted by Minka

Your response completely ignores what I just said.
1.25 cups does not equal 1.25 cups of wet food. Therefor, nothing is proved by saying 'A cat doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet, so it doesn't need 1.25 cups of water.'
On top of that, with some larger breeds of cats, it is entirely possible that they Would consume 1.25 cups of wet. What then?

Also, the reason this thread has gone on is because some posts don't make any sense, the information is incorrect, etc and so some people find the need to address it.

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Why are you harping on this one comment by LDG, which you are taking out of context? She was responding to a comment by another poster and was using one of her cats as an example.

Please keep in mind that on the internet, tone and intent are not apparent as we can't see facial expressions. Posts can come off as rude without that being the intent. If that is your intention, please take it up via PM. That goes for everyone.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

<snip>
210 calories of nearly the same meats, protein/fat/carb %s is the same whether it was boiled in a can or baked into kibbles.

<snip>

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The difference to those is, getting back on topic, the canned food provides adequate hydration, and the dry food does not.

Most cats will not drink enough water to off set the dehydration that occurs on an all dry or mostly dry diet, regardless of the quality of the kibble.

Which is why, in MY belief, hydration being so important to feline health, a canned diet is better, regardless of the quality of the kibble.

Originally Posted by Minka

On top of that, with some larger breeds of cats, it is entirely possible that they Would consume 1.25 cups of wet. What then?

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Based on the proposition that non-water loving, 8-15 lb domestic house cats require approximately the same amount of water intake (in ml) as calorie intake on a daily basis this is the formula I am familiar with to determine both.

1.2 x the resting energy requirement (RER), which is roughly 1.2 x 70 calories/kg of body weight.

Cats co-evolved along side humans to be mousers and keep rodents away from grains. They have evolved to be true carnivores. You will never see a cat eating wheat in the wild or roasting a mouse over a fire. Most kibbles and canned foods are processed with heat, destroying most of the nutrients and proteins in the meat while killing the bacteria. It's just something to keep in mind while you make your decision. Raw is expensive, but if you make it yourself it's not so bad. Plus, you know exactly what you put into it. i'm one of those crazy do it yourself raw feeders

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't notice this statement, since it was embedded in a self-quote.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. You don't leave wet out, and its 80% water very much limiting how much can be eaten at once, so more or less forcing calorie control. Free-feeding dry on the other hand is a snap, so many people do it. Some cats will overeat though. Point is that its not inherent that dry food is fattening, just the fact that unlimited calories are available for the cat to snack on 10-20 times a day. If you portion control the dry food just the same as the wet food, your cat isn't going to get fat, its a simple calories in vs calories used equation.

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Hence the colour difference.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. His dry food was measured daily so he was not free-fed and he gained weight on the dry food. The dry food was also a quality dry food (Orijen) which was not full of grains and fillers.

I've read some of your posts and must say that not all wet nor all dry foods are equal so it's isn't practical to make sweeping statements about calories, etc. unless you are comparing specific foods. It is important to read ingredients listed for the various brands of foods.

Originally Posted by jenny bears

Cats co-evolved along side humans to be mousers and keep rodents away from grains. They have evolved to be true carnivores. You will never see a cat eating wheat in the wild or roasting a mouse over a fire. Most kibbles and canned foods are processed with heat, destroying most of the nutrients and proteins in the meat while killing the bacteria. It's just something to keep in mind while you make your decision. Raw is expensive, but if you make it yourself it's not so bad. Plus, you know exactly what you put into it. i'm one of those crazy do it yourself raw feeders

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I think that's wonderful for you. Raw feeding is a big commitment. One must ensure they add the taurine (absolutely essential for the health of a cat) and any other additives. Anyone considering raw feeding should do the research to do it right. It can be dangerous and the cat can actually die which one of our members has experienced. I believe there are places that sell the raw meats that have been pre-made with the correct ingredients and are frozen which would certainly be a safer way to feed raw IMO.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I think that's wonderful for you. Raw feeding is a big commitment. One must ensure they add the taurine (absolutely essential for the health of a cat) and any other additives. Anyone considering raw feeding should do the research to do it right. It can be dangerous and the cat can actually die which one of our members has experienced. I believe there are places that sell the raw meats that have been pre-made with the correct ingredients and are frozen which would certainly be a safer way to feed raw IMO.

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I agree with you and will go one further. When feeding raw, you have to add supplements, and when you buy those supplements you are taking the same "risks" people who feed commercial diets take. Supplements may be even less regulated than pet food, I don't know the facts on that, but it is my opinion that not all supplements are as effective as they claim. One poor choice or bad batch, and your cat can be suffering from malnutrition on a raw or home made diet.

And then, if you buy pre-made raw meals, again, how is this different than buying a high quality canned food? You are still relying on the manufacturer to put in what the cat needs and leave out any thing unnecessary. Same risks.

*I am not speaking against raw feeding here. Just pointing out some of the drawbacks that have to be considered.*

Originally Posted by elayman

How to know what is enough ? Two of my cats are 4 1/2 and one is 3. For the first two years I had them free feeding on Natural Balance Original Ultra Ultra-Premium Dry Cat Food. I didn't have fountains at the time, but they still were drinking what I thought was a sufficient amount. The only issues of concern seemed to be chronic ear itching and dermatitis and even so, the vets never suggested it could be anything to do with lack of moisture content.

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You might want to change vets. The first question out of my vet's mouth is always, "Are you still feeding a mixed diet"?

Originally Posted by NutroMike

You might want to change vets. The first question out of my vet's mouth is always, "Are you still feeding a mixed diet"?

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Or possibly, if they like the vet, try educating the vet, in a non confrontational way, of course about the benefits of properly hydrating the cat.

Originally Posted by otto

Or possibly, if they like the vet, try educating the vet, in a non confrontational way, of course about the benefits of properly hydrating the cat.

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It's just my opinion but if I have to educate a vet on the importance of hydration in felines, I'm changing vets But that's just me.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

It's just my opinion but if I have to educate a vet on the importance of hydration in felines, I'm changing vets

But that's just me.

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The reality is that vets get just a couple hours of training in nutrition in their vet training - the focus is on the medical rather than nutrition. You will likely find a very small percentage of vets know anything about nutrition and the ones that do have taken additional courses/learning to get that information. Therefore, I personally would not change vets or leave a good vet just because they don't have food/nutrition training. I can always get that information myself by doing the research.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

It's just my opinion but if I have to educate a vet on the importance of hydration in felines, I'm changing vets

But that's just me.

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And I would if I thought that this clinic was run as a business and the practitioners only interested in lining their pockets. But it was established by a group of highly competent, caring veterinarians and run as a “hospital” first, with very reasonable rates. They have certainly taken these cases to heart by putting in enough no charge follow up appointment hours for me not to alienate anyone at this point.

They, like most vets, are not educated enough in modern animal nutrition so of course should not be prescribing foods that they do not know enough about, from either a nutritional or hydrological perspective. But I have started consulting more widely around this particular clinic and a few did bring it up the water issue during treatment of both the UTI and blockage - just unfortunately for me, not a preventative. They were looking at the reaction as a possible food allergy as allergies can manifest as head/neck/ear problems that comes into play especially for cats on a strictly (dry) commercial diet.

I do make an effort to broaden this 'medicalized' perspective when there is something that can still be controlled. For instance, the UTI kitty has a periodic issue with hair loss in a V-shape along her lower back. The vets were on it as a possible flea allergy. I informed the office via a front desk message that flare ups tended instead to correlate most strongly with changes in diet. When feeding mostly turkey and salmon wet, rich in omegas and which arguably offer the most digestible proteins for felines, the problem would clear. But of course the suggestion of a cold air humidifier was also extremely helpful in adding moisture to the dry winter air, thereby reducing the drying effects on her skin.

It is all in the approach, really.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

It's just my opinion but if I have to educate a vet on the importance of hydration in felines, I'm changing vets

But that's just me.

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Most people just wish they could find a vet that doesn't recommend Hills/Royal Canin, let alone one that knows about wet vs dry and the importance of hydration.
Believe me, if I could find a vet like yours, I'd be so happy :[

Originally Posted by Minka

Most people just wish they could find a vet that doesn't recommend Hills/Royal Canin, let alone one that knows about wet vs dry and the importance of hydration.
Believe me, if I could find a vet like yours, I'd be so happy :[

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My vet is great Minka. I am very grateful to have him. We've been using him for all of our animals (except the horse of course for 25 years. He is very involved in rescue work. He is very progressive and continuously educates himself. They only thing I've had to "help" him with during all this time is when he thought Ramsey had FIP. Then *I* got to work with research etc. But FIP is not a normal circumstance.

What makes me curious about some of the replies in this thread is the apparent lack of basic education some of the vets seem to have. Seriously, would feline hydration not be one of the basics, regardless? I'm not a vet and I have not had any veterinary instruction so I can't say but to me it would be a basic part of any vet's education. Again, just my 2 cents. Maybe I've just been blessed, and spoiled, by having a really good vet.

Originally Posted by elayman

And I would if I thought that this clinic was run as a business and the practitioners only interested in lining their pockets. But it was established by a group of highly competent, caring veterinarians and run as a “hospital†first, with very reasonable rates. They have certainly taken these cases to heart by putting in enough no charge follow up appointment hours for me not to alienate anyone at this point.

<snip for space>

It is all in the approach, really.

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I hear what you're saying elayman. I'm glad they've taken your cases to heart. That is extremely important IMO. My vet does so as well. The no charge follow ups you mention really surprised me when one of my meezers had to go back 2 times a week for blood tests. AND imagine my surprise when I had to take all 4 meezers in because I thought one of them had a cold, (you know the story, if one is treated may as well treat them all), and received a 15% "multi-cat discount" I was really pleased about that one and I was only charged for 1 office visit.

Trust in your vet is huge. It's like trusting your own doctor. If you trust 'em, no need to change. I was coming from the idea that hydration in felines should be such a basic thing that any vet should be able to offer advice on the subject.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

My vet is great Minka. I am very grateful to have him. We've been using him for all of our animals (except the horse of course

for 25 years. He is very involved in rescue work. He is very progressive and continuously educates himself. They only thing I've had to "help" him with during all this time is when he thought Ramsey had FIP. Then *I* got to work with research etc. But FIP is not a normal circumstance.

What makes me curious about some of the replies in this thread is the apparent lack of basic education some of the vets seem to have. Seriously, would feline hydration not be one of the basics, regardless? I'm not a vet and I have not had any veterinary instruction so I can't say but to me it would be a basic part of any vet's education. Again, just my 2 cents. Maybe I've just been blessed, and spoiled, by having a really good vet.

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Lucky...

Most vets just are not educated on nutrition. =/
They get a tiny bit, but it's only from Hills and Royal Canin endorsed sources.. and without knowing about wet vs dry, how would you know about the need for moisture either?
When I asked how much I should be feeding my cat to get him to lose weight, my vet said 'Whatever it says on the back of the bag is fine."........