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Bin Laden is dead! - Page 8

post #211 of 225
5/11/11 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And many Palestinian children are taught that absolutely nothing of the US can be considered innocent. That's their perception. See the difference?
Palestinian children may be taught that all jews are the devil and should be killed on site too. That doesn't change anything, as their perception has no bearing on my moral foundation of right and wrong, good and evil. Taking other views into consideration does not mean you still to not reject them outright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
There is no moral distinction between the two, because they are being viewed using 2 different morals. Both are celebrating death, which is wrong under both moral codes.
What you have just stated is that you have no ethics of your own, and thus are personally incapable of making a moral distinction for yourself. Without a moral compass of your own, you thus declare that both are the same, deferring to the morality of others. I'd feel sad for you, if I weren't convinced you don't buy that yourself for a minute, and rather just enjoy arguing or are incapable of admitting fault.
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post #212 of 225
5/11/11 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Palestinian children may be taught that all jews are the devil and should be killed on site too. That doesn't change anything, as their perception has no bearing on my moral foundation of right and wrong, good and evil. Taking other views into consideration does not mean you still to not reject them outright.
It's becoming obvious that "evil" is just a buzz word. Some people are unable to deal, either emotionally or mentally, or both, with the fact that their enemies are people too. So, they use the ultimately meaningless word "evil" to shield their minds from the facts. Kind of sad, really

Quote:
What you have just stated is that you have no ethics of your own, and thus are personally incapable of making a moral distinction for yourself. Without a moral compass of your own, you thus declare that both are the same, deferring to the morality of others. I'd feel sad for you, if I weren't convinced you don't buy that yourself for a minute, and rather just enjoy arguing or are incapable of admitting fault.
I've already told you how I see it. Anyone, of any culture, celebrating death in the streets is just wrong. You're the one who's trying really, really hard to justify dedicating street parties to killing someone. The lack of moral compass is condemning one and making excuses for the other for the same thing. Using words like "evil" is simply an excuse. That merely shows a "have their cake and eat it too" attitude.
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post #213 of 225
5/11/11 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I've already told you how I see it. Anyone, of any culture, celebrating death in the streets is just wrong.
Yes, you have, and if that is all that you had said, no one would be in disagreement with such a personal conviction.

However, you went further on to demonize your fellow Americans, without any knowledge of what they in their minds were celebrating, and even went so far as to declare them hypocrites for being capable of making a moral distinction between a major symbolic victory in the war on terror via the demise of a mass murdering fear mongerer, and the death of thousands anonymous innocent civilians.

If you take back your latter claims regarding the American people, and only concern yourself with your own personal convictions that any death, even that of a cruel and evil tyrant, should be a somber affair, then I have no qualm with such a position and we have nothing to discuss.
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post #214 of 225
5/11/11 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Yes, you have, and if that is all that you had said, no one would be in disagreement with such a personal conviction.

However, you went further on to demonize your fellow Americans, without any knowledge of what they in their minds were celebrating, and even went so far as to declare them hypocrites for being capable of making a moral distinction between a major symbolic victory in the war on terror via the demise of a mass murdering fear mongerer, and the death of thousands anonymous innocent civilians.
Ok, just to clarify. The videos of people leaping into the water to the chant of <blank> Osama gives me no indication of what they were celebrating? What exactly would you accept as an indicator if that isn't enough? And see, you're still using any word you can drag out other than "kill". Demise? How safe and sanitary. "Demise" in one case, "death" in the other. See what you're doing?

Quote:
If you take back your latter claims regarding the American people, and only concern yourself with your own personal convictions that any death, even that of a cruel and evil tyrant, should be a somber affair, then I have no qualm with such a position and we have nothing to discuss.
Ah, so then you're saying that anyone who's convictions are different from yours should remain silent?
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post #215 of 225
5/11/11 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Ah, so then you're saying that anyone who's convictions are different from yours should remain silent?
This is the United States of America, and I love and fully support our freedom of speech, but when you try to debase good fun loving Americans spitting venom with ridiculous parallels and claims of hypocrisy, based on your own lack of conviction and moral relativism, I won't stand by silent either as they do not deserve your abuse.

The positions are clear at this point, and I'll let you have the last word since you seem to crave it above all else.

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post #216 of 225
5/11/11 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And many Palestinian children are taught that absolutely nothing of the US can be considered innocent. That's their perception. See the difference?



There is no moral distinction between the two, because they are being viewed using 2 different morals. Both are celebrating death, which is wrong under both moral codes.
Not to be pedantic here, but aren't you negating your own point about different perspectives and cultures by saying it's wrong under "both moral codes?" I mean - some of these people truly believe they're going to be rewarded in death for killing infidels - so why would celebrating death be "wrong" under that cultural "moral code?"

What bums me out about the celebrating in the streets is that people aren't out there celebrating his capture, so he could be put on trial. THAT'S "American," IMO.
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post #217 of 225
5/11/11 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
This is the United States of America, and I love and fully support our freedom of speech, but when you try to debase good fun loving Americans spitting venom with ridiculous parallels and claims of hypocrisy, based on your own lack of conviction and moral relativism, I won't stand by silent either as they do not deserve your abuse.

The positions are clear at this point, and I'll let you have the last word since you seem to crave it above all else.

I can't believe you seriously mean that!

My morals and Christian teachings tell me that what they did was just wrong, wrong and wrong. You can put it down as just some fun-loving folks having a good time if you want. Personally my morals would not allow me to sleep at night if I condoned that kind of behaviour.
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post #218 of 225
5/11/11 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
This is the United States of America, and I love and fully support our freedom of speech, but when you try to debase good fun loving Americans spitting venom with ridiculous parallels and claims of hypocrisy, based on your own lack of conviction and moral relativism, I won't stand by silent either as they do not deserve your abuse.

The positions are clear at this point, and I'll let you have the last word since you seem to crave it above all else.

Well, this says it all. Thank you for finally clearing that up. You seeing celebrating a man's death as having fun. That explains everything, in a very, very sad way.
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post #219 of 225
5/11/11 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post
Not to be pedantic here, but aren't you negating your own point about different perspectives and cultures by saying it's wrong under "both moral codes?" I mean - some of these people truly believe they're going to be rewarded in death for killing infidels - so why would celebrating death be "wrong" under that cultural "moral code?"
Well, actually, no. Because even though battling enemies is acknowleged in Islam, just as in Judaism and the Old Testament, they too are commanded "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles".

Quote:
What bums me out about the celebrating in the streets is that people aren't out there celebrating his capture, so he could be put on trial. THAT'S "American," IMO.
I completely agree. But I'm not going to second-guess the guys in the field. They did what they had to do, and it turned out as it turned out.
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post #220 of 225
5/11/11 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well, actually, no. Because even though battling enemies is acknowleged in Islam, just as in Judaism and the Old Testament, they too are commanded "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles".
I really don't know/think it's that straightforward. Christians were out happily murdering people under direction of the Pope at several points in history, and let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition... I don't mean to compare State-sponsored terrorism to ... State-sponsored killing sprees. What I'm questioning is interpretation of religious texts - which is different in different times and places. I'm not sure that what you're writing is the way ALL Muslims are taught to practice.

How many different Christian denominations are there? Do they all believe that killing yourself sends you to hell?
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post #221 of 225
5/11/11 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post
I really don't know/think it's that straightforward. Christians were out happily murdering people under direction of the Pope at several points in history, and let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition... I don't mean to compare State-sponsored terrorism to ... State-sponsored killing sprees. What I'm questioning is interpretation of religious texts - which is different in different times and places. I'm not sure that what you're writing is the way ALL Muslims are taught to practice.

How many different Christian denominations are there? Do they all believe that killing yourself sends you to hell?
It's not that straightforward, by any means. In Christianity, where new denominations came about for numerous reasons, interpretations, etc; Islams major sects came about because of disagreement over succession...who would follow Mohammed after his death. But, the radical and extremist clerics all seem to teach their own views, so sometimes one neighborhood will have a differing view from the next. On the other side of the coin, Westboro Baptist and the KKK have their views of how the bible is interpreted. That's what I was referring to when I said before it was a matter of perception Where one makes claims that all prior books to the one they use is corrupted by men, the other claims that the current book supercedes prior books; so that passage is subject to being ignored by both.

So, long story short, though it is part of their religious texts, they are free to find any reason they want to ignore it. Which apparently, a great many from both sides have done. But also, they are quite quick to condemn the other for doing so. And also apparently, but sadly, they feel no obligation to practice common decency.
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post #222 of 225
5/12/11 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And also apparently, but sadly, they feel no obligation to practice common decency.
Beautifully said!
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post #223 of 225
5/13/11 at 8:33am
Omar bin Laden, Osama's son, released a letter supposedly on the family's behalf about the mission against bin Laden and the burial at sea. I've read it, but everywhere I've seen it posted allowed comments, and the comments were understandably rough, to say the least, so I elected not to link to it.

The letter seems to hint that Omar and the family bin Laden(s), are looking into taking legal action against (suing) the United States over Osama's death.

How's that for coming from the "Can you believe this?" dept?
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post #224 of 225
5/13/11 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The letter seems to hint that Omar and the family bin Laden(s), are looking into taking legal action against (suing) the United States over Osama's death.

How's that for coming from the "Can you believe this?" dept?
And I have no doubt they'll find a lawyer willing to pursue it.

How's this for fair? They let it go to trial, and if he wins...the family can pay each of the people killed on 9/11 the same amount?
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post #225 of 225
5/13/11 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
And I have no doubt they'll find a lawyer willing to pursue it.

How's this for fair? They let it go to trial, and if he wins...the family can pay each of the people killed on 9/11 the same amount?
I imagine there are a few lawyers out there that would take it up just for the notoriety.

But isn't Omar the one that claimed years ago that he rejected his father's ideology, renounced violence and all that. We can't know what he's thinking, but the audacity of that letter looks to me to be something like thinking "make a little jack, maybe a book deal..."

I might be wrong, but first impression for me is, it looks a little sleazy.
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