struvite and allergies...revisited

So a few months ago I posted about my cat Marcus who had struvite crystals and was put on Hill's s/d diet by the vet. Since then, he's gained weight, and my other cat, Galen, scratches horribly. He's always scratching and licking, and he's got these awful scabs behind his ears. I remember it got better when I had him on Natural Balance green pea & duck.

So here's my problem. What can I feed my cats that both keeps Marcus from developing more crystals but also keeps Galen's allergies at bay? Any advice would be welcome.

The other problem is that I'm in debt both from Marcus' struvite attack and from Dukhat, who died in November from HCM. I put a *lot* of money in trying to save him. The s/d diet is mad expensive.

Help is appreciated!

A lot of us have to separate out cats in different rooms during meals due to different dietary needs. They learn to eat faster. I keep mine separated for 30-60 minutes. Could you do that?

I'm very sorry you lost Dukhat. I know how much it hurts.

Robin

Thank you, I miss Dukhat dearly.

The problem is thusly:
Marcus, in one of his homes, was not fed enough or regularly enough. He has major food anxiety. If he doesn't see food, he starts freaking out, following us and meowing and yowling and searching for the food. Then as soon as you put food out, he'll scarf it all down and then may/may not puke. Also, he'll likely find his way to Galen's food.

Galen will only eat food when it is in one particular spot.

It if difficult to change their habits. They can be really obnoxious about letting us know they are not pleased.

Sounds like you'll have to do some behavior modification. It will be hard on you at first, but it will get better.

Set up a feeding schedule and stick with it. Marcus will resist and try to shape your behavior, But if you let him succeed, you won't solve the problem.

Since he has food anxiety, and he scarfs and barfs, try small meals, 4-6 times a day, not forever, but for several months until he starts believing the meals will always come. Sticking to a schedule will help ease his anxiety. But first he has to find out and believe that he won't be fed if he annoys you enough. At this point, he has you trained. But if you turn the tables he'll be happier and so will you. But, again it may take a few rocky days before he knows you mean business.

As far as Galen, pick him up and put him in the room you want him with his food. Shut the door and leave him for an hour. After a couple of times, I bet he eats just fine.

Robin

Thank you for that advice! I will definitely start doing that, if for no other reason than to ease Marcus' food anxiety. Poor beastie. I've been feeding him canned food every night, and he knows when it's canned food time, and I've been consistent with that. As a result he's less whiny during the day. So I'll just have to do that with the dry food as well.
(I feed them both canned food at night because I know it's super good for Marcus 'cause of his crystals)

Galen's a bit more difficult. He's stubborn, and you can't pick him up or touch his face. Best I could do is try to herd him into a room. I think this will all be MUCH easier in our new apartment where we are moving to in May. My roommate will be forced to get rid of her junk so I can put Galen in our room with the food and make sure he eats it.

I don't know if such a food exists, unfortunately. I have a kitty who has had struvites & urinary issues, every time I switch him to anything but the C/D he has a relapse. I found in the long run it's cheaper to buy the food (even if it's crummy) than to treat him!

However, he shouldn't be on the S/D long term. C/D is the long term diet for urinary issues. S/D should only be fed to dissolve the crystals, as it's not formulated for long-term feeding. Not that C/D is any cheaper. I at least buy the large bags, which saves a bit of $$, and there are coupons on the Hill's website....but I digress.

Did Marcus develop crystals while on the NB duck/pea food?

He's been on S/D since January, I believe.

I'm not sure. He came to me eating Meow Mix, which is crap, so I switched him to Pro Plan, but Galen started getting the allergies, so I started feeding NB, and then Marcus had a struvite attack. So I really don't know what caused it. Food? Stress from moving to so many different homes? idk. He hasn't had any relapses since being on the S/D, and I supplement it with grain free wet food so Galen can get some food that's good for his allergies.

Yeah one of my issues with S/D is the fact that it only comes in tiny bags, and the tiny bags are mad expensive! I'm massively in debt because of both Dukhat and Marcus, and I'm praying to whatever exists that nothing occurs with Galen. It makes me sad that every rescue cat I've had has been ill with something, and with Dukhat it was the end of him.

I'd talk to your vet about getting the food switched ASAP, I just got told no more than 1 month on S/D at a time, as it's not formulated to be a long-term diet (I think the bag even says it, too?). Anyways, you can give an OTC food a chance again, but be prepared for future urinary issues. Then again you may never have issues again, even if he eats OTC food. You just never know. With my Squishy I switched to an OTC food & it didn't go well. So he's on nasty C/D for life.

Oh jeez. Well, looks like I'm calling my vet tomorrow, which I was planning on doing anyway. I mean I hate the by product and pork fat and gluten and all the crap they put in that food, and I worry about Galen because he has some awful scabs behind his ears from the scratching. Maybe if I mixed the OTC food with the 'scrip food? It's hard to satisfy special needs cats. But of course I hope to find a way, because they're my boys for as long as they live <3

Oh wow, the vet told me he could be on S/D for several months. Maybe that's why he's become so fat?

It really is hit or miss with urinary issues. with some issues in general. When Dukhat was alive, he was REALLY prone to ear infections and got them all the time, while Marcus' ears are perfectly alright.

(I admit, rather shamefully, that one of the reasons I want to switch back to NB is because I get a big employee discount on it, and I have many vet debts and my job won't give me full time)

From http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth though I would suggest reading the article yourself:

For many years, struvite (magnesium, ammonium, and phosphorus) was the predominant mineral mixture found in cat urine due to the species-inappropriate level of grains in cat food. Knowing this, Man then stepped in and started acidifying commercial cat food with things like dl methionine - instead of cutting into profit margin by removing the grains and going back to meat.

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As mentioned below in the Crystal section, struvite crystals are more apt to form in an alkaline urine and calcium oxylate crystals are more apt to form in an acidic urine. Many 'urinary tract' diets - including some of the prescription diets - overly acidify the diet past what would be normal for a cat eating a species-appropriate diet. These diets can dissolve struvite stones but will lead to other problems if they are fed past the therapeutic time frame.

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If Man would just go back to feeding cats a species-appropriate diet - i.e. - one that has a water content that mimics a cat's normal prey and one that is based on meat, not gains - instead of trying to artificially manipulate a species-inappropriate diet of grains by adding acidifiers, the vast majority of urinary tract problems would be solved.

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Crystals:

Crystals are most commonly either calcium oxylate (CaO) or struvite (a mixture of magnesium, ammonium, phosphate).

Calcium oxylate crystals are more apt to be formed in an acidic environment.

Struvite crystals are more readily formed in an alkaline environment.

A small amount of crystals is not an abnormal finding in cat urine and the cat should not be automatically put on a prescription diet such as Hill's Prescription c/d, etc.

Crystals are often erroneously diagnosed because they can form once the urine has been removed from the bladder. Therefore, when urine is sent off to an outside laboratory, or a sample is brought from home, a report of "crystals" is somewhat meaningless since you have no idea if they were actually present within the patient. This misdiagnosis - and overemphasis of the significance of urinary crystals if they are present in the bladder - leads to the client becoming alarmed and the patient needlessly being put on a low quality - and potentially dangerous - diet such as one of the prescription 'urinary tract' diets.

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As stated in the first section of this webpage, manipulating the pH of urine is not the most important factor in preventing feline urinary tract diseases yet it is so heavily focused on.

I am finding it increasingly frustrating to watch the veterinary community continue to be fixated on the pH of cat urine and the presence of urinary crystals instead of focusing on the much more important issue of dietary water content.

Many veterinarians have neglected to look at just how illogical it is to feed any cat a water-depleted dry food diet but especially one with urinary tract issues.

Instead of reflexively reaching for the prescription diets when patients present with urinary tract issues, I would like to see the emphasis switch to getting the patient off of all dry food and onto canned food with added water.

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So pretty much, from the sound of what Dr. Lisa Pierson has to say, the best option would be switching to a grain free canned food.

Articles on http://feline-nutrition.org/search?s...archphrase=all that I found by searching for "crystals" on their site may also be helpful

Originally Posted by white cat lover

I'd talk to your vet about getting the food switched ASAP, I just got told no more than 1 month on S/D at a time, as it's not formulated to be a long-term diet (I think the bag even says it, too?). Anyways, you can give an OTC food a chance again, but be prepared for future urinary issues. Then again you may never have issues again, even if he eats OTC food. You just never know. With my Squishy I switched to an OTC food & it didn't go well. So he's on nasty C/D for life.

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As with all online "vets" and advise run it by Your s who has seen and dealt with Your cat...

Take Galen to the vet ASAP. I know funds are tight, but hopefully it won't cost too much. He needs to go because his immune system is flared up. The vet will likely recommend a steroid shot to help - these are not some great evil, but you don't want a cat getting more than 2 a year if you can help it. This way he doesn't have to suffer with the itching as you're trying to get his diet on track.

My advice for their meals is: leave Galen where he's comfortable. I have three that were feral born and if I mess with their meals they can go off eating for a day or two. This includes even trying to feed them somewhere that isn't their "spot". Stick Marcus in the bathroom (or a bedroom). Start with 4 measured meals a day, then work that same amount down to 2 or 3 meals. If you work, 2 will probably be easier.
Always pick up the food dishes when they're done eating.

I actually suggest you try making at least one of those meals a wet food meal as that would be good for Marcus. Use the script food you vet advises for him, and a LID wet for Galen.

Look into a simple freeze dried type treat, ask the vet if they approve of it, then try a treat ball/bowl and play hide the treats to keep Marcus occupied. If you stick with a simple safe treat of a meat that Galen can have, he hopefully won't react to it.

My cat Ohki had struvite crystals 2 years ago, and also has food allergies. After 2 years we finally got the allergies under control. A few times I thought we found the right food, but this time I know for sure. Unfortunately it's a dry kibble, and not even a great quality one. So, now I am starting to add some canned food to her rotation. She hasn't had any crystals in her urinalysis since 2 years ago, but her urine ph is still higher than normal.

hey guys. So I just talked to my vet and she said I should put both of them on science diet sensitive systems/sensitive skin. Is this a good idea for the boys? Marcus hasn't had any crystals since being on the s/d. He's a vacuum cleaner so I always have to supervise him eating since he'll eat anything that's not nailed down, whereas Galen is very picky.

Originally Posted by doctorprilicla

Thank you for that advice! I will definitely start doing that, if for no other reason than to ease Marcus' food anxiety. Poor beastie. I've been feeding him canned food every night, and he knows when it's canned food time, and I've been consistent with that. As a result he's less whiny during the day. So I'll just have to do that with the dry food as well.
(I feed them both canned food at night because I know it's super good for Marcus 'cause of his crystals)

Galen's a bit more difficult. He's stubborn, and you can't pick him up or touch his face. Best I could do is try to herd him into a room. I think this will all be MUCH easier in our new apartment where we are moving to in May. My roommate will be forced to get rid of her junk so I can put Galen in our room with the food and make sure he eats it.

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Petmate makes a great autofeeder. They will see the autofeeder is always there, and can always see the food, its schedule is 100% concrete, and they associate the inanimate object w/ food and not you and there is no point in complaining or trying to shape its behavior.

Personally, I would cut down or out of fishy foods, provide more wet food, switch to a grain free low carb kibble with a targeted proper urine PH (Blue Wilderness, Wellness Core, Innova Evo, and Nature's Variety Raw Instinct are good), invest in a couple good water fountains (the drinkwell platinum and pioneer big max are both good products IMO), and have as many litterboxes as you have number of cats + 1 extra that are cleaned daily.

The idea is fix the diet, urine PH, an ensure proper hydration and regular evacuation.

Man then stepped in and started acidifying commercial cat food. If Man would just go back to feeding cats a species-appropriate diet...

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I don't know why she is putting all of this on us men. Damn feminist doctors.