Wet vs Dry - The Epic Debate

100% meat wet foods would not be good - they wouldn't be balanced. Neither would be a raw diet that is all meat. You don't see many boneless/organless mice running around after all.

For example, the 95% meat wet food that companies make, are balanced. Take for example EVO 95% chicken & turkey:

Chicken, Chicken Broth, Turkey, Natural Flavors, Carrageenan, Minerals, Guar Gum, Vitamins, Choline Chloride, Herring Oil, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Sodium, Ascorbate, Taurine, Sunflower Oil, Sodium Phosphate, Beta Carotene

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IMO, I wouldn't consider Blue Buffalo as being top quality. But that is just me...

If you want to read the book, go to a library. I don't own a copy, though I have it right now, after ordering it from the library that I go to. Most places, if the library doesn't have a certain book, they will order it for you even if it means getting it from somewhere on the other side of the country - and they'll do that for you for free!

You're going to have to transcribe it, as you can't really expect everyone to go out and buy a long book.

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Nonsense. I provided the citation. It's up to you to look it up. I'm not going to type it in a post for you.
And there is no *everybody* there is just you who continues to insist you somehow know the contents of a book despite not having read it.

I find it hard to believe she would contradict what she writes on her website in her book and she goes into quite a bit of detail if you click around from about to FAQ to protocol and diet.

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There is no contradiction.

And again, what context are we talking about. Potato as a second ingredient? Or as a minor fifth ingredient?

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I think you've lost track of the issue at hand. If you look back you'll see the discussion with regards to Dr Hodgkins began with you making the statement:

IMO, the Dr is doing what so many do, they look at high carb grocery store kibble with corn as a second ingredient, and look at kitties that are overweight from being free fed 24x7 for years, and then paint ALL kibble as bad with that broad brush.

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To which I pointed out that her assertions are not based on what you claim they are and that her actual reasons can be found in her book. Your responses are consistently based on the assumption that you somehow know the contents of the book despite not having read it. Until you either read the book and can with some credibility comment on its content or else admit that there might be more to Dr. Hodgkins objections to dry food than you are aware of we have nothing else to discuss on this topic.

There are no 100% meat wet foods either, and its for a reason as already discussed. It would likely result in high mineral content and urine acidity, and make a cat prone to crystals.

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As far as I can tell you have simply made this up. You have been asked to provide a supporting citation and you have declined.

Look, what you are actually doing is just presenting your opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. There is plenty about conventional wisdom with regards to cat nutrition that I have misgivings about. But I don't present those misgivings as incontrovertible fact as you do.

Unless you are willing to either start stating your opinions as opinions and not as facts or else provide citations supporting them as facts I will not comment further.

Ducman,if you read my post, I did say that canned food is processed. But it is more digestible than kibble.

I dont judge people who feed their pets kibble, however, I will never believe that any kibble is a good diet for any animal, mammal or otherwise. Kibble was created for our convenience only. I will agree that some kibble is better than others but not the ideal. Foods that claim to have meat in the first few ingredients can ne mosleading. Meat has a lot of moisture so the actual amount of meat after cooking may not be reflected in the ingredients list. They are listed by weight but that includes the moisture content. I am, by no means saying this is the end all of all statements about kibble but you cannot simply read an ingredients list and base your opinion on that.

I think part of this discussion should be about the bioavailability of nutrients to the animal. As kibble is highly processed, the nutrients are destroyed. Same with canned. Jowever, canned is digested easier. That's why you dont have to transition slowly with canned food. Easier digestion would suggest more nutrient absorption. Kibble is more nutrient dense but how much of those nutrients are absorbed and are usable by the animal? The addition of synthetic vitamins to both kibble and canned foods makes me wonder how and if the nutrients are absorbed.

The substitution of grains with potatoes or peas in grain-free kibble is a connundrum to me. Potatoes are a high glycemic food and raise insulin levels just as grains do. Whether it's the third or tenth ingredient is moot if a cat is unable to digest it or derive any nutrients from them. I read an article on feline nutrition written by a vet for a conference. Cats derive most of their energy from animal protein sources and have low carb rewuirements. They cannot derive nitrients from vegetable sources which I think.includes potatoes. So adding carbs as what happens in making kibble is putting further and unnecessary stress on a cat's pancreas and digestive system as a whole. As the digestive system is a huge part of the immune system, would it not make sense that adding grains or vegetables like potatoes, are detrimental to the health of an obligate carnivore?

Also is it a coincidence that since the introduction of kibble, the incidence of diabetes, camcer and obesity have risen dramatically? Is it yet another coincidence that vets strongly encourage cat owners to feed canned to help prevent urinary blockage because the moisture content will help dilute the urine and flush the cat's.system?

I will have to read Dr. Hodgkins' book again to give you a more detailed pre cis but she does not only focus on the grocery store brands. She used to work for hills so she has some background into how cat food is made and the rationale behind their methods. I don't care for hills but being a huge pet food manufacturer, it would have provided her with plenty of useful information. keep in mind that I referred to her book with respect to how catkibble was first developed. She says that it was modelled after dog kibble which contained a different breakdown of nutrients than a cat requires. At that time, there were no premium or grain-free kibbles on the market so yes with respect to that particular statement, she was referring to the typical cat kibble. In general, however, she refers to many ingredients in all types of kibble available today. you can probably borrow her book from the.library in order to make a full and informed critique of it.

I wish I could afford to feed all canned food or better yet homemade but I cant. I keep kibble to a minimum. We all do the best we can for our feline friends. Again, I'm not judging anyone who feeds kibble. I just would prefer fresh that"s all.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

At that time, there were no premium or grain-free kibbles on the market so yes with respect to that particular statement, she was referring to the typical cat kibble.

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EVO was available and that is the grain free dry she refers to on pg 112. And there were certainly many dry foods that were marketed as "premium".

Originally Posted by mschauer

Nonsense. I provided the citation. It's up to you to look it up. I'm not going to type it in a post for you.
And there is no *everybody* there is just you who continues to insist you somehow know the contents of a book despite not having read it.

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I said that I have read that particular Dr's four page summary of her thoughts on the subject, never that I had somehow overnight mailed the book and already read it (cmon now), and consider her website an obvious summary of her opinions. Why are you acting like this wasn't already explained?

Originally Posted by mschauer

I see. On the one hand you admit you haven't read the book but then you go on state a summary of it.

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Originally Posted by Ducman69

Because she has a website where she summarizes her thoughts: http://yourdiabeticcat.com/

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No offense, but you have presented the opinion of one person as an authority, even accepting that I have linked to her website where she complains about high carb, high fiber, low fat, high grain kibble. No one has ever contested that, and I agree with her completely! High carb exclusive dry diets are NOT desirable.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is any difference between a majority corn based sugar filled kibble, and a premium low carb grain-free type even when I've compared apples-to-apples w/ ingredients and dry matter comparisons. No comprendo.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

The substitution of grains with potatoes or peas in grain-free kibble is a connundrum to me. Potatoes are a high glycemic food and raise insulin levels just as grains do. Whether it's the third or tenth ingredient is moot if a cat is unable to digest it or derive any nutrients from them. I read an article on feline nutrition written by a vet for a conference. Cats derive most of their energy from animal protein sources and have low carb rewuirements. They cannot derive nitrients from vegetable sources which I think.includes potatoes. So adding carbs as what happens in making kibble is putting further and unnecessary stress on a cat's pancreas and digestive system as a whole. As the digestive system is a huge part of the immune system, would it not make sense that adding grains or vegetables like potatoes, are detrimental to the health of an obligate carnivore?

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I agree completely, cats have very low carb requirements. Around 5% IIRC.

But:
#1) Its irrelevant in a discussion between a mixed dry and wet commercial diet vs a pure wet commercial diet, as both will contain plant sources and the dries were shown to be high meat protein and fat and low carb recipes.
#2) If you removed these minor plant sources COMPLETELY from the recipe (rice/peas/potatoes/etc), I don't know how else they would hit their target urine PH levels.
#3) Cats can very well get nutrients from vegetable sources, they just lack at least one amino acid. There are in fact completely vegetarian cat diets available, I don't agree with it, but cats aren't dying on it either.
#4) My main complaint is that people are often thinking in absolutes; and in the case of peas and potatoes and rice and the like, regardless of the fact that its in both wet and dry, its not like its the first or second ingredient. A little is not the same as a lot. LOW carb not NO carb.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Also is it a coincidence that since the introduction of kibble, the incidence of diabetes, camcer and obesity have risen dramatically?

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Its not a coincidence, I agree completely. There is a GOOD reason for the anti-kibble sentiment.

Calories are calories, and if you consume more than you burn, you get fat. Same for kitties, wet or dry. Dry can be free fed, wet can not, this means that dry easily allows for unlimited calories to be available at the cat's discretion. Fine for some cats, but I know Wesley, he would eat all day until he was a round ball with a head and little stub legs sticking out.

When you're talking about kibble, most people think of the really inexpensive stuff you get at Walmart which are all the bad things previously described. But its unfair to attribute those same qualities to premiumkibble that is nothing alike in ingredients IMO. Likewise from a hydration perspective, a little kibble is not the same as only kibble.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I said that I have read that particular Dr's four page summary of her thoughts on the subject, never that I had somehow overnight mailed the book and already read it (cmon now), and consider her website an obvious summary of her opinions. Why are you acting like this wasn't already explained?

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I'll say again, you've lost track of or perhaps never understood the issue I was addressing.

No offense, but you have presented the opinion of one person as an authority

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No I haven't. I never claimed that she is an authority. I have made no claim what so ever about her expertise or qualifications. I have also not made any claims about the validity of what she says.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is any difference between a majority corn based sugar filled kibble, and a premium low carb grain-free type even when I've compared apples-to-apples w/ ingredients and dry matter comparisons. No comprendo.

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I have neither acknowledged it nor refuted it because it is completely irrelevant to my point.

You have a serious case of tunnel vision. Getting you back on point seems hopeless and frankly I just don't care anymore.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

even a premium kibble still represents a cost savings and has a practical advantage, especially when used with an autofeeder.

^holds 10lbs of food, can disperse at exact intervals at say 5:30AM and 10PM so kitties don't feel the urge to harass you out of hunger, give kitties a nice consistent schedule they enjoy, and is helpful when away so a sitter only has to visit once a day for wet feeding versus 2-3 times a day which can be expensive and difficult to arrange if relying on friends/neighbors/relatives.

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10 pounds of food in a plastic feeder? As a convenience for a day or two when someone is away, maybe. But as a regular way of feeding, that is just gross. Dry food leaves a residue that turns rancid very quickly left open to air. So long before that feeder is empty, the food in it is stale and rancid.

Not to mention the dish. I clean my cats dishes between every serving. A dry food dispenser like that is dumping new food over old food. The bowl itself is a breeding ground for bacteria. Ever touched the kibble after a cat is done nibbling on it? It's wet with saliva. And that saliva sits on the food, and in the dish breeding bacteria. Ick.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

What I say and what is understood never seems to jive in this thread.

First off, YES, you can compare. Vegetable proteins are alkaline and meat proteins contribute to a more acidic urine. .

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No, no, you can't compare humans with cats. Their dietary needs, nutritional needs, and the way they process those are completely different.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are no 100% meat wet foods either, and its for a reason as already discussed. It would likely result in high mineral content and urine acidity, and make a cat prone to crystals.

Premium Wet Foods examples:

Wellness Chicken Wet : Chicken, Chicken Liver, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Carrots, Natural Chicken Flavor, Sweet Potatoes, Squash, Zucchini, Cranberries, Blueberries

Blue Buffalo Chicken Wet: Turkey, Chicken Broth, Chicken, Chicken Liver, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Broccoli, Guar Gum

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Wellness adds those fruits and veggies for the humans buying it. It's a marketing scheme.

Cats don't process fruits and veggies. When they eat prey, the prey eats the fruits and veggies and grains, and converts it, in the PREY'S body, into what the cat needs.

The cat does not convert those things in the same way. Carrots turn to sugar. Cats don't need sugar.

Canned food does require the vitamins, minerals and amino acids that a cat needs added to it. But things like blueberries and carrots have no nutritional value to cats. And potato is just a thickener.

Originally Posted by bastetservant

These discussions always interest me a lot. It's great so many want to give their cats the best diet.

I've been feeding cats for over 50 years now. I started feeding dry food when it came out in the 1960's. It was such an innovation, you can't imagine. There were no premium foods then. And the canned food available was really disgusting.

I've fed cats, including male cats, on nothing much but kibble their whole long lives - 18+ years. No ill effects. I don't do that now. But at the time, there was really no information easily available. I fed what the vets recommended over the years, and didn't give it much thought. And my cats did well.

Now I feed high quality dry and a little canned. My cats are doing well. One is overweight because he is inclined to steal the others' food. Since I stopped allowing that to happen and restricted his caloric intake, he has been losing weight.

My cats get a measured amount of kibble twice a day and the small canned meal for a third meal. However, when I am away, the petsitter only comes once a day to give them 24 hours worth of food. They get a little extra dry then, but they don't always eat it. This is what I've always done, and my cats do fine.

My cats do not act hungry, cry for food, or wake me to feed them. They are all healthy with no health problems at all, and no special foods except for diet food for the one who is losing. They require no medications or supplements. I don't have fountains, just plenty of bowls of fresh water.

I'm very grateful that my cats are healthy.

Robin

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Robin, this debate always amuses me as well. I'm not even sure there is a right or wrong answer. I don't think anyone argues that cats are carnivores and wet food is a moisture source for them. I have 4 indoor cats and one feral cat that lives in my garage. ALL of them get a mix of Nutro Complete Care dry kibble. 2x daily my 4 housecats split a 3oz. can of Nutro Max wet food 4 ways. The feral cat gets a full can 2x daily. All of them are free fed the dry kibble. All of them are very healthy and very active cats. I have 3 fountains. 2 indoors and one in the garage. I think this debate will go on forever. It seems like everyone, including the "experts", have differing opinions. It is always a fun, lively topic of discussion.

Michael <passing Robin the popcorn>

Bottom line to me is - feed a VARIETY (dry, canned, raw) and you'll end up with a healthy cat as if one kind is lacking, the others will compensate.

Most people cannot afford to feed only canned and/or raw. We show our cats and we can't be leaving canned food out when we are away. This is the only time they are fed a lot of dry till we return.

Works out for us, no harm to the cats and they get their canned food as soon as we return.

Because of issues with UTI, I'm afraid to even feed any male cat I owned an all dry diet! I'll stick to some of each.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

OK, thanks for the information. Sorry, mood doesn't always translate well over text. I do enjoy debate and mean for a positive discussion no matter the opinions, so I don't mean to sound combative.

My concern is just that I do agree there is a basis in fact regarding grocery store kibbles often being in high in carbs and fillers (corn often a second ingredient) and understand the hydration issues, but believe these anti-kibble statements are becoming greatly exaggerated.

At the very least, I believe by running the numbers and comparing on a dry matter basis and looking at ingredients, we've seen that there are low carb dry foods available w/ no more "fillers" than are in wet to balance urine PH regardless, and with plenty of quality meat protein sources. I believe that hydration concerns on exclusive dry diets are not EXTREME, but merely mild and ist just that by their chronic nature can cause issues in some cats over time, w/ the sheer numbers of kitties on exclusive dry w/o health issues as evidence enough. A mixed diet w/ attractive water fountains logically has to be increasing moisture intake over this.

So my argument is NOT against exclusive wet (well, except some dental concerns raised), or a complete raw diet, but just that some decent kibble is "fine" and is attractive by its flexibility in feeding and considerable cost advantage over even poor quality wet.

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While I don't know you, I've read many of your posts. I've not know you to be combative. Yes, it is sometimes difficult to try and read a persons intent but it's always easy to clarify if needed

I don't recall if you free feed dry as I do. What I do know is I feed a mix of both wet and dry kibble as do you. I feed Nutro, which is a premium food. I think you also feed a premium if I'm not mistaken, but can't recall which brand you use. I also agree that hydration concerns over an all dry diet are in the mild category and not the "extreme" category. I do have dental concerns over an all wet diet but that's just me. None of my animals have ever had dental issues, cats or the dogs. I do supplement with dental treats. Feline and Canine Greenies are given on a daily basis. None of my cats have had allergy issues or UTIs <knock on wood>. I've been feeding the cats a mix of wet and dry Nutro for 15 years now with absolutely no negative effects.

What I know little to nothing about is the raw diet some people feed. I don't know how difficult, or easy, it is to feed a raw diet, but I would be afraid I would not be able to get all of the nutrients into such a diet that my cats would require. Since I know so little about it; I can't offer anything substantial to that discussion.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Ducman, my friend, you can't compare any other type of animal, including people, with a cat or any other type of obligate carnivore. These animals evolved specifically for a high-protein diet. What would make us very ill, they need to thrive!

And as much as you are entitled to your opinion - and you are - you can't answer scientific fact with "in my opinion". Well, I guess you can, but the conversation ceases to be a logical discussion in that case.

I'm glad your kitties seem to be doing great on their diet - it breaks my heart every time I hear of another kitty getting sick - and with only a percent of their diet consisting of kibble, they are that much more likely to remain so (like a smoker who's reduced his habit to only one or two cigarettes a day). But unless we're going to talk about the science, and show proof to support our opinions....

Well, it's clear we have different opinions, and that doesn't appear likely to change.

I think I'll just say, I agree we disagree, and let this thread go with that.

Best regards!

AC

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Give this site a shot at scientific info. It may, or may not, answer you questions. It is a study on different proteins and effects. It is an interesting read. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1250243/

It's really not too different than arguments regarding a human diet. You'll have people who are very strict about their own nutrition (or that of their kids) and you'll have people who eat nothing but junk and don't really care or know why it's bad for them, and then you'll have people somewhere in between.

I view this issue as an analysis of risk factors. You've got the extreme: feeding an only dry diet is high-risk, just like for a human, eating a large amount of sugar on a daily basis is high-risk. Eating some healthy food, and some junk decreases the risk. Eating very little junk decreases the risk even more.

Ultimately not all cats who eat only dry, or half dry, are going to suffer ill effects from it, just as not all people who eat a lot of junk food and don't eat enough vegetables are going to end up with diabetes or heart disease or obesity. Genes are a factor too.

But I think the problem is, we can only look at risk factors, not know for sure whether our cats (or ourselves, or our kids) will be affected by them. For that reason, I personally choose to err on the side of caution.

I don't think an occasional unhealthy snack is going to hurt anyone, just as an occasional cupful of kibble probably won't do any harm to your cat. But when it comes to a cat's (or my own) regular diet, I prefer to try to feed the healthiest, most natural diet possible. Because I don't want to take the risk.

I used to feed exclusively kibble. My first cat was overweight at the young age of 6 months, even after switching to a combo canned/dry diet (and even when the kibble was grain-free). I never knew whether to portion control his diet or not, because as a kitten, I knew he also needed to eat more than an adult cat. It didn't seem wise to restrict a growing kitten's food, and if eating his fill = overeating, then I felt there was clearly something wrong with the food (especially since he was a very active cat).

After removing all kibble from his diet, he lost weight. No portion restriction required. He now remains a healthy weight, even when I let him eat his fill. The solution was so simple, it made me realize, no wonder so many owners struggle with their cats' weights on kibble. Why complicate matters with trying to portion-control a less nutrient-rich diet when the solution is really so simple?

My second cat was the real last straw for me, regarding kibble. She came home with gas, soft stool, and bloating. We did the usual slew of testing and treatment for possible parasites (found nothing). We tried switching her food, still no luck. We tried switching to a grain-free kibble and saw a little improvement but not much.

Finally we switched her to an all grain-free canned and raw diet. Problem solved! It was once again, so obvious. She eats kibble: she gets gas and bloating and soft poo. She eats low carb diets of mostly raw meat: she's healthier than ever.

Both my cats showed dramatic improvement on their kibble-free (and most especially their raw) diet. And that is why I am now so passionate about this kind of diet. People can debate statistics and ingredients and "what ifs" until the end of time, but seeing results I think is what ultimately convinces a lot of people, and you can see that in this very thread, with the number of people saying they used to feed only kibble but switched and were pleased with the results.

I guess that's why it's hard for people to see why kibble is a problem if they feel their cats are already healthy. I felt Apollo was already pretty healthy, but I never realized how fit he could be, or how soft his coat could feel. I didn't realize how much healthier he could be until after I made the switch. I am grateful I ended up with a cat (Athena) whose problems with kibble prompted me to abandon it entirely, or else I may never have realized how much better my cats' diets could be. While not every cat has the obvious dramatic problems on kibble that Athena does, I think every cat could potentially benefit, or have their risk factors reduced from eating a diet more close to what they are naturally designed to eat.

I go back to the human diet analogy. I cannot eat much refined sugar because I have a condition called reactive hypoglycemia. I have to eat a fairly strict diet, one that most people would consider "unnecessary." Because my body reacts to sugar in such an extreme way, I was forced to make nutritional changes that most people don't bother with. But does that mean only people with reactive hypoglycemia benefit from eating a diet with less sugar? No, of course not. We all hopefully know the dangers of eating too much sugar. But many people don't bother making the change in their diet until/unless they actually start seeing negative side-effects from it. For me, I was "lucky" enough, like Athena, to be forced to make those dietary changes earlier in life. Unfortunately for most people they don't bother making those changes until it's too late. And then they end up with diabetes or cancer or other diet-linked illnesses and by then, all they can do is damage control. Just like cats who end up with diabetes or CRF...diseases often just chalked up to "old age" that honestly might have been preventable on a different diet.

I know what to feed your cat is a personal choice that many people get very sensitive and defensive about. And as this thread shows, is a hotly debated topic. And I agree that some cats may live long healthy lives on purely kibble diets. My parents' cat lived to be 18 on a kibble-only diet...of course she did develop CRF several years before her passing and then had to be fed only wet food after that. While 18 is a good long life, I sometimes wonder if things might have been different if she'd eaten a different diet. Maybe she would have pushed 20? Who knows.

So in summary, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I just feel more comfortable reducing risk factors for diet-related illness. I know not everyone feels this is necessary, but I do think it's at least worth acknowledging that there are risks to kibble-only diets, whether you consider them a real concern or not. If someone feels the need to defend feeding kibble, maybe ask yourself why you feel the need to defend it? Are you truly confident about that diet? Are you worried about it? Do you feel you can't give it up because it would be too difficult to feed a different diet? There are solutions to these issues, and I think people are are more happy to help rather than judge. A lot of us understand, because we have been there too.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Give this site a shot at scientific info. It may, or may not, answer you questions. It is a study on different proteins and effects. It is an interesting read. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1250243/

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That study is interesting indeed but I'd be cautious about simplifying the results. I'm not sure what point you were specifically trying to make by linking it, but if your point was that feeding grain is totally acceptable, or even better, because corn gluten meal resulted in lower urinary PH than chicken meal, you need to look at the study in its entire context, and the full sum of the results.

I'm not sure if that was what you were trying to say, if not I apologize for misinterpreting. But if it was, keep in mind two important things:

1-The study itself acknowledges that chicken meal is more readily digestible as a protein source than CGM. You can't assume one ingredient is ultimately the "better" one because it is superior in one area without looking at the other causes and effects it might have. To use an analogy: we know that soybeans contain a significant amount of dietary nutrients that humans require, and do not come with the concerns of overconsumption of saturated fats, that are found in meat. However soy is also high in omega-6 fatty acids, and due to the frequency with which vegetable oils, soy flour, and other grain fillers are being used in human food, processed food diets have been shown to carry an unhealthily high load of omega-6 (a fatty acid that is important for our health, but unhealthy if overconsumed). Nutrition is a delicate balance, and when you start oversimplifying it and overusing a particular ingredient in light of some potentially beneficial discovery, you typically end up with negative side effects.

2-Somewhat related to the above, we're dealing with processed meals here. Not chicken in its natural state. Not meat in the way a cat would naturally eat it. Pointing at adverse affects of cooked, processed chicken meal and saying clearly diets high in meat-protein can be unhealthy to cats is like pointing at a french fries and saying potatoes are bad for humans. That study shows an example of precisely why over-processed cat food can be problematic. I agree with them that chicken meal is not an ideal protein source for cats. But that does not mean that fresh raw chicken is also unhealthy or increases urinary PH. Because chicken meal and a complete raw chicken are not the same thing at all, and cooking and refining degrades nutrients and changes the nutritional quality of a food.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

That study is interesting indeed but I'd be cautious about simplifying the results. I'm not sure what point you were specifically trying to make by linking it, but if your point was that feeding grain is totally acceptable, or even better, because corn gluten meal resulted in lower urinary PH than chicken meal, you need to look at the study in its entire context, and the full sum of the results.

I'm not sure if that was what you were trying to say, if not I apologize for misinterpreting. But if it was, keep in mind two important things:

1-The study itself acknowledges that chicken meal is more readily digestible as a protein source than CGM. You can't assume one ingredient is ultimately the "better" one because it is superior in one area without looking at the other causes and effects it might have. To use an analogy: we know that soybeans contain a significant amount of dietary nutrients that humans require, and do not come with the concerns of overconsumption of saturated fats, that are found in meat. However soy is also high in omega-6 fatty acids, and due to the frequency with which vegetable oils, soy flour, and other grain fillers are being used in human food, processed food diets have been shown to carry an unhealthily high load of omega-6 (a fatty acid that is important for our health, but unhealthy if overconsumed). Nutrition is a delicate balance, and when you start oversimplifying it and overusing a particular ingredient in light of some potentially beneficial discovery, you typically end up with negative side effects.

2-Somewhat related to the above, we're dealing with processed meals here. Not chicken in its natural state. Not meat in the way a cat would naturally eat it. Pointing at adverse affects of cooked, processed chicken meal and saying clearly diets high in meat-protein can be unhealthy to cats is like pointing at a french fries and saying potatoes are bad for humans. That study shows an example of precisely why over-processed cat food can be problematic. I agree with them that chicken meal is not an ideal protein source for cats. But that does not mean that fresh raw chicken is also unhealthy or increases urinary PH. Because chicken meal and a complete raw chicken are not the same thing at all, and cooking and refining degrades nutrients and changes the nutritional quality of a food.

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Hi, you did misinterpret a little. The poster was looking for scientific evidence of some sort from ducman69. Well, I can't post any of the scientific research from Waltham, Nutro or Mars lest I be misinterpreted as using biased sources. I am well aware of the dif between raw chicken and meal etc. That was not the point I was trying to get across. Perhaps this particular study was not the best one to use as an example, but it does indicate a kibble diet is quite acceptable if reinforced with other nutrients which the cat needs. It is kind of hard to express everything on these forums and I fully expect to learn much from some of the posters here. I also hope to contribute.

My take is, like so many others; I have 4 indoor cats and a feral. I've been feeding a combination of Nutro kibble and Nutro moist cat food for 15 years. None of them have had a UTI, dental problems or any other issues related to food ie; allergies etc. I am not "killing" my cats with this type of diet. Quite frankly, my vet could not be happier with the health of my cats and dogs. Anyone implying that I'm neglectful of my pet's health due to their diet, would be sadly mistaken

Thanks saitenyo for your input on the post. I greatly appreciate it!

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Hi, you did misinterpret a little. The poster was looking for scientific evidence of some sort from ducman69. Well, I can't post any of the scientific research from Waltham, Nutro or Mars lest I be misinterpreted as using biased sources. I am well aware of the dif between raw chicken and meal etc. That was not the point I was trying to get across. Perhaps this particular study was not the best one to use as an example, but it does indicate a kibble diet is quite acceptable if reinforced with other nutrients which the cat needs. It is kind of hard to express everything on these forums and I fully expect to learn much from some of the posters here. I also hope to contribute.

My take is, like so many others; I have 4 indoor cats and a feral. I've been feeding a combination of Nutro kibble and Nutro moist cat food for 15 years. None of them have had a UTI, dental problems or any other issues related to food ie; allergies etc. I am not "killing" my cats with this type of diet. Quite frankly, my vet could not be happier with the health of my cats and dogs. Anyone implying that I'm neglectful of my pet's health due to their diet, would be sadly mistaken

Thanks saitenyo for your input on the post. I greatly appreciate it!

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I think the issue though is, as I said in my initial reply, that while it may be theoretically acceptable and end up being perfectly fine for some cats, clearly it's causing problems in enough cats that caution should be taken when feeding it. It's all a matter of risk factors. If someone wants to look at the study and say, "Well, it can be fine, and I'm comfortable taking that risk and hoping that applies to my pets," that's their choice. But you don't necessarily know whether your cat will react poorly to potential problem ingredients until after the fact.

In some cases, like with Athena, she had issues with kibble from the start, so it was readily obvious that it was not a good diet for her. But for other cats, the problems may not surface until they develop a serious issue like crystals, diabetes, or CRF later in life. And especially with the latter two, it's sometimes too late to reverse the issue, only to manage the symptoms.

I'm just saying it is a risk and people feeding these sorts of diets need to at least acknowledge that, even if they don't feel their cats personally are going to suffer from said risks. Obviously you feel you're feeding your cats very well. I imagine if you didn't, you wouldn't be feeding them that. It's clear you're not concerned that your cats will develop any issues from their diet, perhaps because they haven't so far, but to outright dismiss the fact that it can and does happen to plenty of cats is shortsighted.

And to clarify, I'm not trying to criticize what you feed your cats or say that your harming them. Clearly you've got a bunch that seems to be reacting well to their diet, which is great.

I'm just saying there's a clear reason why so many don't feed kibble. Because some cats really do not fare well on it. And like I said, a new cat owner can't really know whether their cat will be one of those right from the start.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

And to clarify, I'm not trying to criticize what you feed your cats or say that your harming them. Clearly you've got a bunch that seems to be reacting well to their diet, which is great.

I'm just saying there's a clear reason why so many don't feed kibble. Because some cats really do not fare well on it. And like I said, a new cat owner can't really know whether their cat will be one of those right from the start.

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Oh gosh, I didn't mean to imply there aren't risks. I think there can be risk with just about any diet one may undertake for their kittys. Nor did I mean to sound dismissive. *sigh* the written communications can sometimes get confused There are probably risk factors on cats with an all kibble diet, cats with a wet diet or cats on a raw diet. What I find unsettling is that some people tend to believe their way is the only way to feed a cat and become rather aggressive trying to get their point across. Personally I feel that if it's working, the cat is healthy, don't change it.

NutroMike - Your siggy reads "Pet Nutrition Specialist with the Nutro Company". Does this mean you work for Nutro??

Never mind - I just read some of your other posts. You do work for Nutro. Good to know. I'm glad you put that in your siggy.

Correct, there are dental concerns with a commercial wet food only diet since the jaw muscles and gums are never used, and teeth are not scraped. That said, generally only dental specific kibble is effective in being large enough and solid enough to get a sufficient crunch in. There are also health concerns regarding the liners used inside canned wet food.

There are also risks for raw, as it is up to the individual preparer to prepare the food properly and with sufficient variety for a complete and balanced diet, and there are sanitation concerns for the pet and the preparer. This is why that although it can be a very healthy diet, some veterinarians are very much opposed to it, as they have likely encountered some that come in, don't know what they are doing (feed cooked bones, or no organs, or grind the meat up, or just use rabbit etc), and have one very sick kitty.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

I'm just saying there's a clear reason why so many don't feed kibble.

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My issue with this statement is still that it just states "kibble". As if ALL kibble is 100% exactly the same, which I've clearly demonstrated is not true.

The only thing that all kibble has in common is that its around 9-11% moisture. There are no other universal similarities.

Most digestive upset issues do not deal with moisture content, but ingredients like chicken, soy, wheat, corn, etc. and that varies brand to brand.

And if we were to compare overall use regarding what "so many feed", kibble is by far the dominant food choice for kitties, although I believe that to be far more a cost (as was seen, even the most expensive kibble is fractions of the cost of the poorest quality wet) and convenience factor than anything else.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

In some cases, like with Athena, she had issues with kibble from the start, so it was readily obvious that it was not a good diet for her.

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I posted on here too about how Buttercup had soft stools on Blue Chicken and Rice Kitten kibble. HOWEVER, it didn't exist on Purina One cheap kibble nor on Blue Wilderness kibble. The moisture content wasn't the issue, the ingredients were.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

But for other cats, the problems may not surface until they develop a serious issue like crystals, diabetes, or CRF later in life.

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Risk for crystals usually stems from inadequate moisture, too acidic of urine levels, high magnesium and phosphorus levels, low salt, and inadequate litter issues. So if a cat is holding it in too long, has a diet that results in a high urine PH (thats what some plant material in the kibble is used for since its alkaline), has high magnesium and phosphorus levels from too high an ash or lots of fish, etc those can all be issues. But yes, hydration is a cause too, which is why I include wet in their diet and have two cat fountains in high traffic areas (IMO the more they walk by them, the more likely they are to take a sip).

Type 2 diabetes as was mentioned in the site linked and the author quoted is typically caused by a high-carbohydrate and low fat food with excessive calorie consumption. As shown, there are very low carb high animal protein good fat and low fiber dry foods available, and calorie consumption can be easily measured and adjusted w/ a cup or a food dispenser. CRF has similar risk factors.

Hence the problem with saying "its kibble", as all kibble isn't the same, and in fact special kibble is often prescribed to treat those conditions.