Wet vs Dry - The Epic Debate

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I'd have to disagree that chronic dehydration isn't an "extreme" issue, given the large amount of cats suffering from kidney and urinary problems that may well have been caused or worsened by kibble.

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That is not what was said. What was said that dehydration in cats fed exclusively kibble is not to an extreme extent, not that it isn't an "extreme issues". You're not going to go to a cat fed just kibble, pull on its scruff, and have it not spring right back. It can in some cases be very mild but chronic dehydration (cats are not clones, some drink more some less). More luring attractive water fountains and partial wet diet could bump very mild dehydration up to normal healthy moisture levels.

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

And obviously people believe and feel it's an issue or you wouldn't be feeding this expensive, inconvenient stuff at all

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You are talking in absolutes, and that was the main reason I created the new discussion. Step back and please read this thread again. Yes, it is important for cats to stay well hydrated, and wet food can contribute to moisture intake. Amen!!! That does NOT mean that a cat has to eat a bowl of soup at every single meal to get enough hydration for the day.

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

There's also a very easy way to tell if your cats are drinking enough water, get yourself a refractometer and check!

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Uhmmm, pass.

This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....

Originally Posted by Turks rule!

This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....

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We moved to a new city/ state this past summer and do not many people here, yet. I am a student at a University in a different city, where we lived before (where friends would very willingly help out). Am working on my dissertation from home - so not much of my own social circle here. DH's work is 6 days a week for about 12 hours a day - and so we do not have much of a social life where we can develop enough closeness to ask someone to look after our kitties. We occasionally meet DH's colleagues or friends of friends we are becoming friendly with in the evenings for drinks/ dinners and no one stays in our neighborhood. Plus we do not know how these people will be with our kitties. Most also have similar schedule like my husband's. And I do not want my kitties to stay in someone else's place - they are just so comfortable in their own house. Hobbes, especially, will not deal with such a change well. So yes, we have to pay someone, which is expensive but at least they are doing a job so hopefully will do it professionally and the kitties can stay home. Plus my future petsitter works for our vet, which has an added advantage.

Originally Posted by Calvin&I

Totally agree!

Although theoritically I undertand that wet/raw would be great but not everyone can do everything - like I have not figured raw diet out and with my current schedule, I cannot do that. I do about 80% wet and 20% dry because I do not want Calvin and Hobbes to not be acquainted with dry food in case of an emergency when they have to have dry. Also they do love munching on some dry. But I believe that some wet is essential for the kitties' welfare.

Yes, and I am fanatical about a different issue - if you cannot/ will not take your pets to the vet when they need to do, you should not have them.

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Agree with you here Calvin. I still feed my cats a small percentage of dry on a daily basis, 20% high quality grain free kibble. about 80% is wet food, again a high quality grain free wet food. I mix my wet foods around as well and they do receive some grains from the brand I feed.

Many, many years ago we fed dry. I didn't know any better and just bought from the grocery store whatever dry was on sale. My cat lived to nineteen years of age with no health issues. That is not to say all cats will have such luck with a completely dry diet. I also had to make some changes to my thinking when years ago two of my male cats developted FLUTD and my vet at the time told me to start them on a canned food!!! That was about fifteen years ago and when I did the change over and started researching cat food diets, my cats never had an issue again. IMO I would never feed a completely dry diet, but nor would I totally give up the small amount of kibble they receive daily as it is a convenience in case I can't make it home and someone has to fill the bowls with a little dry food until I get home.

Originally Posted by Turks rule!

This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....

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Most cats will be very upset if they are moved from their home to a strange home while their people are away. Cats want to stay home.

I have had good friends look after my cats, many times in the past when I went away. People who love cats, have cats, and love me. However, now I much prefer professional cat sitters - who I now know and trust after numerous trips. These people have lots and lots of experience with cats and they make an effort to check things, look for my cats (because they hide from strangers), check how they are doing in lots of ways, and do so many things that the average person just hasn't a clue about. I feel my cats are much safer with the pet sitter service I use. These people are devoted to the care of animals. They only cost $16 a visit, and I have 5 cats. I only need them to come once a day. It's really not expensive for all they do, the time they spend, the reports they supply, and the peace of mind they offer me. And if they don't do all I want and expect (which hasn't happened yet), I don't have to be mad at a friend, or even lose a friend. I can talk to the owner of the service and get the problem rectified, or even get a different sitter next time, if I needed to.

So, it's not sad at all. It's the smart thing to do.

Robin

Originally Posted by Turks rule!

This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....

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IMO its stressful to rehome cats, as its a foreign environment and they have no familiar smells, and don't know where the litterbox is put etc. Plus all my rooms have networked cameras in them, so I feel safer being able to pop on my phone and check on the cats (even has two way audio which is kinda cool heh... kitties must wonder if I'm in the walls).

Houston is a big city, and most people I know live in the suburbs around it. Some in the northeast, some in Katy, some in Sugar Land, etc. So its a 20min drive with no traffic at minimum, up to a couple hours for others, and everyone works. I wouldn't even feel comfortable asking someone to come more than once a day, and I definitely do NOT have anyone begging to take care of my cats.... in fact, I just usually get the "why didn't you get a dog" comment.

I haven't read the entire thread and I don't have nearly as much experience or knowledge as most of you but let me say this. This is only a theory of mine based on my experience, though limited, at the animal hospital where I work as well as the reading which I've done (obviously not as extensive as that of you all).

Kibble is a relatively new invention, created for the convenience of cat and dog owners. According to Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins in her book, "Your Cat..."(can't remember the whole title sorry), she says that cat kibble was modelled after dog kibble which contains meat, grains, veggies, etc, the latter two being ingredients cats don't need. In essence, kibble is like cereal, a quick and easy way to give your pet a meal. All ingredients ostensibly required to nurture a cat all mushed into a small nugget and cooked at high temperatures to make it hard. Yes kibble will keep an animal alive but it's still processed food. Whole, natural foods are always the best way to go. Even canned food is processed but more digestible. Processed foods will just go through the body without really providing the body with whole nutrients. The nutrients have been cooked out. When I started to feed my dog raw, I could not believe the difference in her stools. Not huge mountains! Which to me, means that she is absorbing more real nutrients, so to speak.

Having said that, of course, I would not deny a cat kibble if it was starving. That's not fair to say that if you can't afford to feed canned or raw, then you shouldn't have a cat. There are so many cats that need homes, and well, if the only thing you can do is feed kibble to give cats a good home, then who gives a cat's poop? I do feed my one cat 1 quarter dry and three quarters wet, I can't afford to feed both cats all wet but both my cats are healthy and happy. They won't eat raw or that would be what I'd be feeding them. That or homemade.

What does bother me though is when people come into the clinic and they are filthy rich but feed their pets the worst and cheapest foods, kibble or not. They wouldn't feed crap to their kids why feed their pets, who they have chosen to bring into their homes, crap? I guess part of it could be misinformation or just what they've always done.

My vote would be: real whole foods.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

According to Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins in her book, "Your Cat..."(can't remember the whole title sorry), she says that cat kibble was modelled after dog kibble which contains meat, grains, veggies, etc, the latter two being ingredients cats don't need.

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Too high of meat protein content in wet or dry food can cause high urine acidity, so it is often balanced w/ some plant material (rice/potato/etc) which is basic.

The examples listed in the first post of this thread shows that not ALL dry foods have high plant protein content and high carbs, and those posted are in fact quite excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes.

Wellness Core Kibble main ingredients: "Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat"

IMO, the Dr is doing what so many do, they look at high carb grocery store kibble with corn as a second ingredient, and look at kitties that are overweight from being free fed 24x7 for years, and then paint ALL kibble as bad with that broad brush.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

All ingredients ostensibly required to nurture a cat all mushed into a small nugget and cooked at high temperatures to make it hard. Yes kibble will keep an animal alive but it's still processed food.

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Wet food in a can is processed, and it is also mushed and cooked at very high temperatures with taurine added back in after. Processing is also not inherently bad if done right. Whole wheat bread, a slice of cheese, and glass of wine are not worse than chewing some wheat from a field, squeezing a cow udder to your mouth, and eating some fermented grapes off the ground IMO. Processed canned cheese is horrible for sure, but the 99% of food we eat is processed in some way and usually enhances flavor, texture, and digestibility.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Too high of meat protein content in wet or dry food can cause high urine acidity, so it is often balanced w/ some plant material (rice/potato/etc) which is basic.

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Huh? That's a new one on me. Can you point me to your information source that cites a pet food manufactor as saying the reason they add plant material to their food is because it is necessary to offset the high acidity of meat protein?

The examples listed in the first post of this thread shows that not ALL dry foods have high plant protein content and high carbs, and those posted are in fact quite excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes.

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Well, in your opinion they are "excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes". There are those who would disagree.

IMO, the Dr is doing what so many do, they look at high carb grocery store kibble with corn as a second ingredient, and look at kitties that are overweight from being free fed 24x7 for years, and then paint ALL kibble as bad with that broad brush.

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Actually if you read the book you would find that her conclusions about dry food are based on many years of practice and her observation that when a cat exhibits some problems, not just wieght related, that switching the cat from an all dry diet to an all wet diet often clears up the problem. She says that switching to a "low carb" dry can help but isn't as effective as an all wet diet.

Originally Posted by mschauer

Huh? That's a new one on me. Can you point me to your information source that cites a pet food manufactor as saying the reason they add plant material to their food is because it is necessary to offset the high acidity of meat protein?

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This applies to all mammals, including humans. A google search will pull up various sources, and its something to take into account with extreme diets such as atkins and vegans. Either too high or too low a urine PH can cause issues. Generally speaking, acidic urine is subject to stones and basic urine is more hospitable to bacteria. Wellness advertises only their target Urine PH with their recipes (6.1 to 6.6), but I can assure you no one will contest this.

Originally Posted by mschauer

Well, in your opinion they are "excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes". There are those who would disagree.

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Manufacturers do not list carbs, however, you can look at the ingredients and protein, fat, and fiber and figure it out pretty easily. Those are low carb recipes, its not really subjective. It could be subjective on whether the following ingredients are "good" or "bad", but which of these main ingredients do you believe are poor protein sources and why?

"Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat"
^ all named meats, first four ingredients are all meat, no big allergens, no artificial colors or flavorings or sugars or salts. Ingredients are always listed in order of weight, so its obviously not a giant potato with meat sprinkles, but rather quality meats (Wellness advertises "human grade") with a bit of potato added in.

Also its important to remember that we aren't comparing an ALL dry diet, we're comparing to a MIXED diet, where cats are getting added moisture from more attractive water sources and some wet food. The question is not whether or not cats get MORE moisture or not if you were to feed them a soupy mix every meal, but whether or not they are getting their required daily moisture in a mixed diet or not.

Ducman, my friend, you can't compare any other type of animal, including people, with a cat or any other type of obligate carnivore. These animals evolved specifically for a high-protein diet. What would make us very ill, they need to thrive!

And as much as you are entitled to your opinion - and you are - you can't answer scientific fact with "in my opinion". Well, I guess you can, but the conversation ceases to be a logical discussion in that case.

I'm glad your kitties seem to be doing great on their diet - it breaks my heart every time I hear of another kitty getting sick - and with only a percent of their diet consisting of kibble, they are that much more likely to remain so (like a smoker who's reduced his habit to only one or two cigarettes a day). But unless we're going to talk about the science, and show proof to support our opinions....

Well, it's clear we have different opinions, and that doesn't appear likely to change. I think I'll just say, I agree we disagree, and let this thread go with that.

Best regards!

AC

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Ducman, my friend, you can't compare any other type of animal, including people, with a cat or any other type of obligate carnivore. These animals evolved specifically for a high-protein diet. What would make us very ill, they need to thrive!

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What I say and what is understood never seems to jive in this thread.

First off, YES, you can compare. Vegetable proteins are alkaline and meat proteins contribute to a more acidic urine. I didn't think this was contested, but if it truly is I will be happy to invest even more of my time and provide sources. NO, that is ideal for humans is not ideal for cats, and I never made such a claim.

1) Do you agree or disagree that there are target urine PH's for cats?
2) Do you agree or disagree that urine PH can be affected by the quantity of plant protein in the recipe?

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

And as much as you are entitled to your opinion - and you are - you can't answer scientific fact with "in my opinion". Well, I guess you can, but the conversation ceases to be a logical discussion in that case.

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The only way an opinion ceases to be a logical discussion is when the person forming the opinion is not using available evidence and logic to form it.

I have calculated dry matter basis comparisons, I have demonstrated that not kibble is not higher in plant material or carbs on a dry matter basis, I have logically deduced that cats fed an exclusively dry diet are not massively dehydrated only mildly so and that including some wwet and attractive water fountains logically increases moisutre intake. I have then logically come to the conclusion, in my opinion, that daily water intake totals are sufficient for health and quality dry kibble portion fed is not harmful and has many practical advantages in cost offset and feeding flexibility.

At the very least, the statement that all kibble are high in plant protein and carbs with low quality protein sources compared to wet or that they aren't both processed and heated to high temperatures is patently FALSE.

And the burden of proof goes both ways. All creatures have a general sedentary daily moisture intake requirement. It has never been argued that the wetter the food, even up to the point of soup, the more moisture a cat consumes. But there has been NO evidence provided that shows that a mixed diet with water fountains available does not meet sufficient daily water intake. You can't claim its "like smoking" and have no evidence to support it. Cats in the wild also live very hard and short lives, so its also insufficient IMO to use that as a model of ideal health and vitality regardless of the fact that the thread was only comparing artificial commercial recipes; all wet vs some wet and some dry.

For example, here is a typical anti-kibble claim that is making too broad of generalizations:
http://www.brighthub.com/pets/cats/articles/43645.aspx

Benefits of Wet:
Higher Water Content – True

Less Carbohydrates – FALSE, this is a generalization and is only less carbs if comparing against a high carb kibble.

Proper Servings – FALSE, dry can be portion fed just like wet. The possibility of leaving out unlimited dry food does not make it a requirement.

Closer to Natural Diet – FALSE, this is comparing against commercial wet and again subject to the recipe. As demonstrated the dry kibbles shown had much more natural protein sources than the wet.
edit:

Originally Posted by mschauer

Actually if you read the book you would find that her conclusions about dry food are based on many years of practice and her observation that when a cat exhibits some problems, not just wieght related, that switching the cat from an all dry diet to an all wet diet often clears up the problem. She says that switching to a "low carb" dry can help but isn't as effective as an all wet diet.

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OK, I haven't read the whole book, but I did look it up. She isn't wrong, but from what I can tell you are misquoting.

Its talking about how a lot of dry food is very high in refined grains which are very quickly processed with an overall high carb load, which causes blood sugar spikes and places strain on the pancreas. Combine that with obesity caused from some cats grossly overeating when free fed, and you have a recipe for environmental type 2 diabetes.

That is absolutely true, and also absolutely irrelevant to a very low-carb, high quality meat protein, and grainfree kibble provided on a schedule basis!

Cats are NOT made to digest vegetables very well, they NEED meat. This is why cats cannot be "vegetarians" like some want to think. Dogs can handle vegetables a lot better then cats. And meat contains the taurine cats need - vegetables do not!

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Cats are NOT made to digest vegetables very well, they NEED meat. This is why cats cannot be "vegetarians" like some want to think. Dogs can handle vegetables a lot better then cats. And meat contains the taurine cats need - vegetables do not!

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Very true, and not contested. A little bit of plant matter though (peas/potatoes/brown rice) can balance urine acidity and others have been found helpful as antioxidants and the like.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

OK, I haven't read the whole book, but I did look it up. She isn't wrong, but from what I can tell you are misquoting.

Its talking about how a lot of dry food is very high in refined grains which are very quickly processed with an overall high carb load, which causes blood sugar spikes and places strain on the pancreas. Combine that with obesity caused from some cats grossly overeating when free fed, and you have a recipe for environmental type 2 diabetes.

That is absolutely true, and also absolutely irrelevant to a very low-carb, high quality meat protein, and grainfree kibble provided on a schedule basis!

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I see. On the one hand you admit you haven't read the book but then you go on state a summary of it.

BTW - How exactly did I "misquote" when I didn't actually quote anything???

Because she has a website where she summarizes her thoughts:
http://yourdiabeticcat.com/

Misquoting can mean to take out of context or misrepresent without a specific quotation, but regardless you know what I meant.

She complains about high carbohydrate and high fiber diets with lots of grain and low fat. That may describe some grocery store kibble quite well, but not ALL kibble. I do not disagree whatsoever with that assertion, but it is completely irrelevant to a low-carb high protein and low fiber sufficiently fatty grain-free kibble as you can see below:

Wellness Core Dry
Main ingredients: Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein 56%
Crude Fat 20%
Crude Fiber 3.3%

Purina Chicken Feast Wet
Main ingredients: chicken, liver, wheat gluten, meat by-products, turkey, corn starch-modified, artificial and natural flavors, soy flour, salt...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein 50% (note quality and sources of protein)
Crude Fat 11%
Crude Fiber 8.3%

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Because she has a website where she summarizes her thoughts:
http://yourdiabeticcat.com/

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The book has 283 pages. It should be obvious that the website doesn't cover all the material that is in the book.

Misquoting can mean to take out of context or misrepresent without a specific quotation,

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Uh, no it doesn't.

She complains about high carbohydrate and high fiber diets with lots of grain and low fat.

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In the book she goes into far more detail about problem ingredients in dry foods. For instance she talks specifically about why potatoes, as found in your wonder food of choice, is a problem. See page 112, paragraph 2.

You're going to have to transcribe it, as you can't really expect everyone to go out and buy a long book. I find it hard to believe she would contradict what she writes on her website in her book and she goes into quite a bit of detail if you click around from about to FAQ to protocol and diet.

And again, what context are we talking about. Potato as a second ingredient? Or as a minor fifth ingredient?

There are no 100% meat wet foods either, and its for a reason as already discussed. It would likely result in high mineral content and urine acidity, and make a cat prone to crystals.

Premium Wet Foods examples:

Wellness Chicken Wet : Chicken, Chicken Liver, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Carrots, Natural Chicken Flavor, Sweet Potatoes, Squash, Zucchini, Cranberries, Blueberries

Blue Buffalo Chicken Wet: Turkey, Chicken Broth, Chicken, Chicken Liver, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Broccoli, Guar Gum

Ducman, if nothing else, you're always passionate about what you believe in.

The invention of dry food is for the convenience of the owners; little has to do with the health benefit of our kitties.

I think if I can afford it, I would feed my cat an all wet and raw diet. As it is, he gets about 75% wet. I leave dry food out at night just in case he is hungry.

Ideally, I think all cats should be eating raw and wet food. No dry.